Guys,<BR><BR>grow up, we didn't want to hear your offense or defence, all that nonsense. If you like some company, it's OK but don't try to say everybody else who goes with other companies is a fool. I traveled with A&K a couple of times, you get what you pay for. Judging by the language she used, I think Fodors did the right thing to delete Maureen's wordy message. In fact, both jpm's and mine should be deleted too.

I believe Mitch meant to say he would sail downstream and China Focus goes upstream. I've studied both itineraries. According Pacific Delight, going downstream is more expensive. E-mail them if you don't believe me, Maureen and jpm.

Thanks a lot geez. That was a mistake on my part.<BR><BR>Let me say this. I have nothing against Air China or China Focus. I just felt the way Maureen and jpm talk about the other company lacks civility. I bet they wouldn't talk like that when they talk to you face to face. <BR><BR>No matter how you look at it, spending 8 days covering no more than 250 miles is actually a small part of China. Grab a map and see for yourself, jmp. No point arguing over this because it is a fact.<BR><BR>Time to turn in, see you tomorrow.

We did three weeks in China back in May & June. We went with a company called "Pacific Protour". The reason that we booked with this company is because they will run the tour with as few as two people. We were it, the only two booked on that trip. It was locally hosted, meaning a guide and driver at each city. If the tour has twenty or more then it is fully escorted. Also most companies can cancel if they don't get the minimum number of people required. It can then take up to three months for a refund. My self, I loved it that we were the only ones on the trip. Had our own guide and driver, more individual service. Five star hotels, and most meals. The cost was comparable with the other companies. They fly excusively with ANA airlines, and business upgrades are offered at what I considered a low price. If you don't want to run the risk of a cancelled trip, want great accomodations I would highly recomend Pacific Protour. <BR>

OK Mitch, please correct my lack of civility. I went back an reread Maureen and my post and cannot find any uncivil comments - perhaps you are reading them with a $1000 chip on your shoulder (ok, that was uncivil).<BR><BR>I really don't understand the - they won't talk to you that way face to face comment. What way? The way we gush on-and-on about the positive trip we had? <BR><BR>If anyone lacks civility in this posting it would be you. But saying that, I do agree with you that different companies cater to different styles. Laurus offers a different itinerary in some regards - for many people this may be what they are after as it does go to different cities. If they guarantee smaller group sizes this could also be a bonus. I would hate to be stuck in a group of 50 (as I saw many tours with a fully packed grey hound type bus - that wouldn't be my idea of fun).<BR><BR>As far as Maureen's description of the tour - I thought she was very accurate and her obvious enthusiasm for the trip showed. I guess if she had spoke as enthusiastically about how much she hated the trip then Fodor's would have let the post stand.<BR><BR>I recommended Fodor's to Maureen while on the trip. I told her it was a great place to post questions, reviews, and opinions. Unfortunately, I failed to tell her about the sophmoric attacks that also take place.

As stated in my deleted reply, I took the 22 day Farewell to Three Gorges (China Focus) tour last April-May. It was the greatest tour one could imagine, and truly a bargain for 4 domestic flights and no payment for optional tours, and shows. Also, Air China is part of KLM and Northwest Airlines and the service was excellent. No one is knocking others. I, and others, are ecstatic about the incredible trip and simply expressing the delight of our experience.

No one is doubting that you all had great experiences with China Focus. But I do agree to a certain extent with Mitch's comments. I can't really imagine anyone saying 'I wonder why you want to spend a thousand more for what we got' in a face to face conversation.

Do Maureen and jpm work for China Focus or get some kind of commission? Although I have been known to write a glowing report of a company I am happy with, the gushing from these two is a little hard to believe.<BR>

The debate is getting testy. Let me stir the pot a bit and see what reaction we'll get.<BR>----------------------------------------<BR><BR>I took the same China Focus tour in May. No doubt, I got my money's worth. In its price category, China Focus is absolutely good value, but to say it is THE company to travel with to China is quite a stretch. I think myself fairly well traveled, having been to over 50 countries with great companies such as Adventures Abroad and OAT. There are many companies out there as good as or better than China Focus. Then again, you get what you pay for. I was in Beijing with OAT two years ago and I know what was missing with China Focus' tour. I asked the guide why we were not taken to the gallery of treasures (precious jade carvings etc) in the Forbidden City, he couldn’t give me a straight answer. So we paid our way and saw what we wanted our in-laws to see. <BR><BR>I would have no problem recommending China Focus to people who are extremely price-sensitive, but I have to admit the company is not for everybody. I found the shopping stops a huge waste of time, but as someone mentioned on Frommers, China Focus gets its cut when tourists buy. China Focus is no Mother Teresa, as a business it has to make money. Every company has its own way of doing business and they do cater to different types. If China Focus is the only company people should go with, companies like Abercrombie & Kent won’t have a successful China tour operation. In my eyes, China Focus tour is by no means champagne. I did not ask for that and I did not pay for that. Premium brew at generic price is a better description.<BR><BR>A few more things.<BR><BR>1. China Focus does not include tipping in its tour price, unless some people got preferential treatment.<BR><BR>2. Travelers to China should bring travelers checks because you get a better rate when changing money and you can cancel them if they were stolen. You can't do that with cash.<BR><BR>3. Giving away stuff “lifted” from hotels. When I went to China with OAT, the tour leader warned us against giving anything to the locals. If we wanted to do good, we could donate to some charities dedicated to helping the poor and needy in China. Giving free stuff to the locals is one form of tourism pollution and should be discouraged.<BR><BR>To sum it up, I would recommend China Focus to people with tight budget. That’s the market they are after anyway (sorry folks at China if I offended you). I am also conscious not to comment on companies I never traveled with. The reason I mentioned Adventures Abroad and OAT is that I have first-hand experience dealing with them and I love them. <BR>

Some postings here remind me of my first visit as a child to a toy store in Boston, when we just moved there from a small village in Maine. Zealotry and ignorance come hand in hand.

Poor Kid, your such an ignorant zealot. Now go outside and play with your sister.<BR><BR>Pete, just because you've been to over "50 countries with great travel agents" doesn't make you a world traveller, it just means you've had your ass hauled around by professionals. I've been to over a 100 countries, mostly on my own. Does that make me twice as knowledgeable about travel as you?<BR><BR>I haven't been on a China Focus tour but I haven't seen any that include tipping in their initial price. Do they hide the tipping charge or are they upfront in telling you tipping is extra?<BR><BR>I agree with traveller's checks to a country such as China. I seem to remember that there was a very small percentage difference in the exchange rate. But it was so small that it didn't make a difference. However, with many ATMs not accepting or working with Western ATM cards they are nice to have. Many of the Bank of China ATMs show they will work with Plus system but they won't. And for safety reasons why risk having everything in cash.<BR><BR>I agree with you about handing out trinkets from the hotel, but I don't think these were "lifted" as you imply. These are items you pay for. But to give them out is about as tacky as can be. Not sure what you mean by "tourism pollution". If your guide was that concerned then maybe you shouldn't have even been in the area and you're money shouldn't be going to pay the guides salary.<BR><BR>So Pete, did you stir up what you wanted?

Pete, Thanks for putting perspective on the tour groups being discussed. It`s a little like the blind men who touched an elephant and then described what he was like! LOL. I have benefited from both enthusiastic groups, I guess if I had to pay for a family trip the China Focus would be most attractive, for a special trip with just my wife I would consider a slightly more expensive company. In any event, both are appreciated. Sounds like everyone had a great time, so the enthusiastic endorsements are the way it should be.

I feel the need to express my feelings about this thread and the reactions of other travelers. I have always been impressed that writers do not put down other peoples' tours or feelings about the tour they have completed or just booked.<BR><BR>I go to this site to learn about different aspects of where I am traveling and then make a decision if that is where I would like to go. I have learned from my own experience that everytime I have followed another traveller's suggestion I have never been sorry.<BR><BR>The postings I value are the ones that are factual and offer detail about the <BR>place(s) they have been.When I read a guide/glossy about a destination it is not always easy for me to discern which are unique in certain ways. By reading the postings I have learned that.<BR><BR>In terms of my original posting on why we chose Laurus Travel I became <BR>curious about China Focus. The differences that I quickly noticed were they spent more days on the Yangtze River which means that there is no additional <BR>transportation, meals or hotel cost for those days. When I checked prices some <BR>time ago on this aspect, going upstream (more days) or going downstream (less <BR>days), the cost was the same.<BR><BR>Another reason I noticed for the price difference is that to go to Kunming, Dali <BR>and Lijiang means that the cost to go to these outer areas cost more (places that <BR>were on our "must see" list) as compared to going on a loop as China Focus <BR>does.<BR><BR>Laurus Travel as I posted earlier is going to the places that we want to go, yes it is $1,000 more, but we are traveling to where we want to go and are willing to pay the additional monies.<BR><BR>Susan<BR><BR><BR>

Anyone taken Tauck to China? What did you think about it?

Only two days ago my husband and I decided to go to China in 2003. So I am in a process of reading all your posts here and looking for some ideas. I checked out itinerary of the China Focus and they sound interesting. However, we like to spend more time at each side and shopping is not our cup of tea. We rather focus on history and culture. Also I am freelance photographer so I would need more time that a group time allows. But after reading this post and responses I want to do independent travel. Is it possible?

Renee,<BR>Given your criteria I would advise independent travel. You won't find many tours that don't have any included shopping. It's definitely possible and nowadays relatively easy to travel independently in China.

Hi we have friends who traveled independently in China. They used various modes of transportation with no problem. I know some people use the asia discount hotel line for accomodations. We are taking a tour because our time is limited to four weeks and it was easier to have all the arrangements made before we arrive. We will be arriving two days before the group starts and then extending our stay in Hong Kong for 5 days.

Renee, I haven't travelled independently in China but I did meet several people who were doing so while we were their. It is definitely doable and not that difficult (from what I gather). The only downside was it took more time to do most things and it does cost more. Several couples told me they would hire drivers / guides in each city for around $50 a day - but I can't verify those prices.<BR><BR>But if you have the time go for it. The extra expense of doing it on your own will be more than offset by the memories and the satisfaction of being able to plan your own itinerary. I would definitely avoid the typical tour companies. One couple I met had actually managed to book everything (rooms, flights, guides) over the internet.<BR><BR>

Independent travel will take a little more time, planning, and research, but Renee, it sounds like you want to take your time and not rush anyway. I also prefer spending more time to explore one area rather than trying to fit in as many places as possible in one trip. With independent travel, you can also utilize hotels that are more centrally located and near public transportation, making it convenient and time efficient for sightseeing. The tour companies tend to book those properties that are on the city outskirts which makes it time consuming if you want to do anything on your own independent of the group. As far as hiring guides/drivers for the day, it's often cheaper to negotiate a rate with a taxi but might present a language problem as you're not likely to find any English speaking taxi drivers. In Xian we paid about 250 yuan (for the taxi) for one day to visit the terra cota warriors and a few other sites nearby. I think the hotel asked for 500 yuan for a private car/driver for the day. Both prices did not include admission fees (which ranged from 35-65 yuan on average) and guides (optional) at the sites. We did end up stopping at a 'jade factory' (we learned that the taxis are paid a fee every time they stop here regardless of whether you buy anything), but we simply walked in and walked out - prices were outrageous which is not surprising considering they have to pay all those drivers. You can probably insist beforehand that you don't want any shopping stops but realize that the shopping stop subsidizes part of the tour cost.

Because many of you who are the U.S. citizens used Laurus Travel I would like to know how did you pay for your trip. This company doesn't accept credit cards. Were you able to pay with your personal check?