china in two weeks--Beijing help
 

Two of us are going to Beijing and after several weeks researching on this site here are my ideas. We want "different" along with the "must sees".
Day one: arrive at 4:40 pm. We have reservations the first night only at Prime Hotel. $65. We are going to try to negotiate an upgrade and then bargain for hotels as "walk ins" after that.
Day 2:Sunday-- Panjiayuan (sunday) market. Is it worth it? We also want to go to Guanyuan Schichang insect market, Changchun Jie or Yuting. Is there any advantage to Sunday for the latter three? I found Guanyuan market but can't find the other two. What metro stop are they near? Should we split them up over time?
Day 3:South Beijing. Temple of Heaven, Museum of Ancient Architecture. Perhaps Hong Qial (is that redundant from yeserday?) We are going to the markets for local color and not necessarily to buy. Anything else different in the south?
Day4:Great Wall-- Jin Shan Ling to Simatai. Can't decide whether to negotiate for a taxi or just hook up with Far East Youth Hostel, any ideas.
Day 5:Hutong walk or bike. Peter's walk one sounds fascinating, is it possible to bike without endangering one's life and limb? Maybe bike around the Back Lakes area and parks?
Day 6: Summer Palace by canal if it is still happening. Is both the Old and New Palace worth it? Anything else out that way?
Day 7: Forbideen City, Lama Temple.
Is Tiananmen sunset anything? What about the night market. We were thinking about a hike with Beijing Hikers but their web site has disappeared and I fear that they are history. Any news? It seems that Acrobtic shows and dining and partying in Sanlitun are some things to do at night? Any suggestions on massages? We are very flexible and would be up for anything different with a real flavor of Beijing. Sure is a lot of questions. Thanks so much.

Just got back from Beijing/Xian/Shanghai/Hong Kong. Great cities and lots to see. Having said that, couple of things that may be helpful.
1) Be ready for crowds. Culturally Chinese are used to less personal space and things are crowded all over during the summer. Just something you need to be aware of and not let it bother you.
2) Have extra toilet paper on hand at all times.
3) Learn basic phrases such as "thank you", "Hello" and "I don't want to buy". If you plan on taking a taxi, have your destination written in chinese to show the driver.
4) When shopping, bargaining is expected. If you start to bargain, and in the end you don't like the price, be ready to walk away even when the vendor is agressively trying to get you to buy.
5) Learn a little about the chinese food ahead if you can. While you will be able to find the typical Chinese dishes we are used to, if you study a bit, you can truly experience the Chines cuisine. The fried rice of all types is to die for.

Great Wall-- Jin Shan Ling to Simatai is definately worth the drive. We went last week (had a guide) and found very few people in the middle of summer. Take a light rain jacket as the weather can change very quickly.

Both the Forbidden City and Summer Palace are incredible. Each take at least 2 hours to do especially in the summer when it's very crowded.

I'd advise against the bikes. I found simply walking from point a to point b very dangerous. It seemed like there were bicyclists everwhere competing with the cars on the road.

It's a great city and you will have fun!

>Day 2unday-- Panjiayuan (sunday) market. Is it worth it?

Yes. It's not as colourful as it used to be because many of the ethnic minority people have been squeezed out by the locals, but still worth visiting. Bear in mind that everything is fake.

>We also want to go to Guanyuan Schichang insect market, Changchun Jie or Yuting. Is there any advantage to Sunday for the latter three?

Busier on Sundays, but quite busy enough during the week.

>I found Guanyuan market but can't find the other two. What metro stop are they near?

Well Changchun Jie (will seem very small after Panjiayuan) is near the metro stop of the same name. The Yuting is opposite the southeast corner of the Temple of Heaven.

I wouldn't bother with Hong Qiao which is just for tourists.

> We are very flexible and would be up for anything different with a real flavor of Beijing.

Go and join the retired people flying traditional shanyanr ('sand swallow') kites from bridges on the second ring road.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Hi

My wife and I spent about a week in Beijing in March last year and we had a great time there. I have posted a trip report and some pictures on my personal homepage www.gardkarlsen.com. Maybe you can find some useful information there :-)

Regards
Gard
Stavanger, Norway

onthego2: can you tell me what guide you used and how much it cost? thanks, glad your trip was great!

Old Palace? Do you mean Yuan Ming Yuan? There are not much left to see except the ruins. (I know there are a lot of renovations being done over the past several years. Not to make it look like what it used to look like (Certainly this is an impossible task), rather to make it more of a public park. However, the old palace is worth visiting in the sense of understanding history. It was the most magnificent garden ever built in China (probably in the world too) and thousand times more significant than the current Summer Palace. Its destruction represents one of the darkest moment in China's history.

"One of the darkest moments in China history"

Pure xenophobic propaganda, and worthy of the Chinese media (including the channel we've recently been recommended to watch).

I'd think the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, political campaigns which took the lives of tens of millions of Chinese might be thought just a little darker?

How about the sending to their deaths of thousands of PLA soldiers in the absurd attempt at an invasion of Vietnam in the 1970s?

I'd have thought the slaughter in Tian'an Men Square in 1989, although it took a relatively tiny number of lives, might be thought to be down there somewhere amongst the darkest moments of Chinese history?

I could spend all day listing man-made and natural disasters in China all far darker than the destruction of one small group of palaces and gardens.

But if we're just to stick to dark moments of cultural destruction only, I would have thought the destruction of the misnamed 'old' Summer Palace paled beside the destruction of tens of thousands of temples. palaces, city walls, mosques, tomb sites, and vernacular housing around China since 1949, which continues to this day, not to mention the almost complete destruction of old Beijing from city wall inwards. Oh, and have a word with any Tibetan on this topic.

Of course, stress is put on the 'old' Summer Palace's destruction in the media and in China's xenophobic education system, because its destruction was begun by foreigners in 1860, whereas as the tens of millions of deaths of Chinese within living memory, and the destruction of most of China's cultural heritage, were inflicted by the Chinese upon themselves--a little detail which it is preferred was forgotten.

School education in 'history' also neglects to mention that the most significant part of the gardens was commissioned by foreigners (the Qing dynasty) and the most significant remains were built by foreigners (French and Italian Jesuits), that the whole place was dilapidated and falling down before the Anglo-French forces arrived (in fact by the second half of the 18th century it was already neglected), and that the Chinese continued to pull down the rest and put the gardens under the plough as soon as the foreigners had gone. Why the foreigners were there in the first place (to revenge the incarceration and murder of envoys) is also never mentioned.

Modern discussions also ignore that this 'site of patriotic education' as it is offensively called, has been further destroyed in recent years by those employed to look after it: some lakes are filled with weeds and algae, others provide tawdry paddleboat entertainments, there are bumper car rides, shooting galleries, ghastly restaurants in gimcrack buildings, and more.

What's 'dark' about all this is the casual dissemination of the opposite of the truth, either by commission or omission. It's certainly to be deplored that the original was torched, but even more of a shame that the remainder of the country has been similarly torched by the Chinese themselves, a process which continues to this day and makes it utter hubris to criticise others.

And for the record, the 'new' Summer Palace became part of the same complex as the 'old' in the Qing, and is in fact far older than 'old' gardens to which is was once connected. The buildings are newer because they are the only ones rebuilt or renovated after 1860, and again after 1900, whereas most of the remainder, including all the land between the modern boundaries of the 'old' and the 'new' was put under the plough, built on, or completely abandoned. So much for China's care about its preservation.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

The destruction of the palace is a reflection of how mismanaged China was under the Qing dynasty, rather than just an action taken by the Anglo-French forces. To say that the destruction of the palace is a tragedy doesn't dispute the fact that there are other tragedies thoughout China's history. I myself would rather see the place remain what it was 15 years ago v.s. what it is today. And I am apalled by the destruction of the old Beijing as well. The topic of discussion here is whether it is worth visiting the old palace. And I would say yes if you care about history (good and bad, old and current).

I can't help to add this. Being a student of Beijing University in 1989, I certainly understand what 1989 stands in China's history. I am not satisfied with Western media's coverage of the event either. And I understand how easily truth can be lost throughout human history.

I'd like to add a bit to this discussion of Yuan Ming Yuan without engaging in "hubris" or talking about "darkest moments" of history - anyone's history (mine in particular has some very inglorious dark moments). :)

The place, later to be named "Yuan Ming Yuan" by the Kangxi Emperor, had had buildings constructed on it for several hundred years before the Ching Dynasty (1644-1911). It's true, however, that the gigantic construction projects were begun by the Ching Emperors, who were MANCHUS (more properly "Manjus") and not Chinese. This is kind of like saying that Catherine the Great of Russia really wasn't Russian but German, nevertheless, she was Empress of RUSSIA. Likewise, these were Manchus, but they were Emperors of CHINA. So, Yuan Ming Yuan is a CHINESE site. It is even more of a Chinese site for what it contained.

Yuan Ming Yuan had about 150 large structures/buildings/palaces - whatever you want to call them. Only a very small percentage were constructed in the European style under the supervision of Europeans, the vast majority were Chinese in concept, design, and construction. When the Great Burning took place, the Chinese buildings, mostly made of wood, burned readily, while the European-style buildings, parts of which were made of stone, stood. This is the origin of the mistaken impression that YMY was "European".

Classic Chinese gardens are supposedly to be each a microcosm of the entire world of nature. In a similar vein, Yuan Ming Yuan was conceived to be a microcosm of all China, ruled over by the Emperor. For this purpose, the Qienlung Emperor, who is responsible for the bulk of the construction of YMY, gathered the best construction people to imitate the best of what he, the Emperor, saw in his empire - a bridge here, a library there, a garden elsewhere. YMY was intended to be a reflection of what the Emperor saw as he voyaged around his empire, China, and was intended to be a reflection of his empire, China. It was, until its destruction, the largest man-made palace-garden in the world.

YMY covered about 1.3 square miles and all parts of it was carefully arranged. Although there are larger (in terms of acreage) European castles/chateaus, a lot of the grounds of these European castles are rolling hills or forests. YMY consisted, on the other hand, of countless constructions and rearrangements of "nature".

Moreover, the Ching Emperors gathered in YMY a considerable treasury of the best of jade, ceramics, books, etc. from all over China. Thus, YMY was not only the largest museum in terms of precious articles but also the largest library, possibly the largest library ever in human history.

The construction and the collecting at YMY went on for about 150 years - give or take a few years - under several emperors. Thus, YMY was not just another complex of palaces, it contained the best of what the nation had to offer. In a way, you can say, it was the soul of China in terms of its contents.

In 1860, during the Opium Wars (today politically correct to refer to them as the Anglo-Chinese Wars), at a time when the Ching Dynasty had been in decline for many years and was very weak, a combined Anglo-French force gained control of Peking (nowadays politically correct to write "Beijing") and of YMY, which, by then, was really the seat of the Chinese government, with the Emperor in residence with his family, retinue, ministers, and officials for 3/4 of the year (the rest of the time was spent in the Forbidden City).

After four days of continuous looting (this is a term used by a Frenchman who was there), with the "best" set aside for Queen Victoria, other goodies being split among the officers, and the rest given to the regular troops - after four or more days of constant looting and whatnot, Lord Elgin - with protestations from the French - ordered the torching of YMY. It took 3500 troops to set the entire place ablaze and took three whole days to burn.

YMY suffered another ravaging. In 1900, what was not destroyed in 1860 was taken care of by the Allied Forces of 8 nations.

Walking through YMY today is like walking through a graveyard, a place where one tries mightily to reconstruct what was there and is no more.

Because of its contents and because the man-made features of YMY were intended to represent various parts and aspects of China, its destruction was like the destruction of the soul of China.

Here's an imaginary equivalent: it would be as if the Huns/Goths/whatever went swepting into France, torched and destroyed Versailles - which, at the time, just happened to contain all the wealth of art and history that is stored in the Louvre, thus the invaders also looted France of its national treasures, carefully gathered by 150 years of enlightened French kings.

We all decry the beastie that is in each of us. However, pointing fingers at what the Chinese have done to China does not take away the awfulness of what happened at YMY.

Peter, I was in Beijing in May for only 3 nights and doing the tourist things, I didnt have much time to shop which is my passion. I went to the Pearl market and the Silk market. At the Silk market I bought a fake Tommy Bahama shirt that I love for 70 yuan. I am going back the first week of September and I will have plenty of time for shopping. I realize everything is a fake and I dont mind. Which markets do you recommend? Also can you tell me approximately how much I should pay for a taxi from the airport to Forbidden City area? Thanks for all your info.

This is mostly rubbish.

The Qing emperors were from a completely different ethnic group (or artificially fused collection of ethnic groups), regarded as barbarians by the Chinese, and were emperors of the Great Qing Empire, not China, an empire which grew by force to contain the territory which had previously been under the control of the Ming and much more beyond that. The comparison with Catherine the Great and Russia is fatuous. Chinese were not allowed to marry Manchus, not allowed to enter or live in the territory from which the Manchus had invaded China (now the three northeastern provinces, which had not previously belonged to any Chinese dynasty) and Chinese males were forced to shave the tops of their heads and wear a long queue at the rear. From 1644 to 1912, the Chinese were under foreign occupation against their will.

It always helps to read what is said, which is that 'the most significant remains' were built by foreigners, not that these formed a significant part of the total gardens. But these are the very items, built for the Manchus between 1747 and 1759, which feature in all discussion of the site, in its promotion of itself, and in proposals which are made from time to time for reconstruction (in order to make it a more attractive site to tourists, of course). These buildings were partly pulled down by the invading troops, but sequences of photographs subsequent to 1860 show the Chinese continuing to pull down the buildings themselves, taking away the stone for building and the metal ties for other purposes. As late as 1939 Osbert Sitwell reported watching children batter down a stone bridge. Although to be sure the foreign troops caused most of the devastation, it's nice to have a complete picture, which is also that the 'graveyard' is partly of Chinese making.

Luckily, the foreign invaders didn't carry out their initial plan of torching the Forbidden City. This was because they didn't want the Qing to fall, much as big business today prefers the Party to remain in power rather than face a probably yet more unstable environment in which to do business. Shame on all concerned.

The rest of the description is completely over the top or wildly inaccurate. It is a nonsense to say that the Yuanmingyuan was the seat of government for 75% of the time. From the Kangxi emperor's time until the mid-19th century, the emperors mostly spent their summers in Chengde (constructed by the Kangxi and Qianlong emperors) which was where Lord Macartney had in fact to go to find the Qianlong emperor in 1793 and where the reigning emperor signed Conventions of Peking in 1860.

Partiality for the Yuanmingyuan varied from emperor to emperor, although it happened to be where the Empress Dowager Cixi, in successive regencies and periods of rule by force, preferred to spend her time. The gardens in the Yuanmingyuan date from no earlier than 1709, while the Yiheyuan (incidentally 1.11 sq. miles and part of the original complex, so something's wrong with the sums, unsurprisingly) was originally begun in the Jin, improved in the Yuan, and again in the Ming. By the time of Macartney's visit, in the reign of the Qianlong emperor, the Yuanmingyuan, where he was housed, was impressive, but already falling to pieces. So much for the Qianlong emperor's supposed obsession with it. Most of the work was in fact done by his grandfather the Kangxi emperor, absorbing existing princely gardens into a whole. The Qianlong emperor is best known for adding the 'Europeanerie', as George Kates amusingly named it.

The emperors were given large numbers of beautiful things, which they stored all over the place, including at the Forbidden City and Chengde, not just the Summer Palace. The greatest library of China is generally given out to have been the Hanlin Library, just southeast of the Forbidden City, which the Chinese themselves torched during the Boxer Rebellion siege of the Legation Quarter in 1900 (so start rending your clothes and weeping over that, but do it at the Chinese). What survived was rescued by the besieged foreigners despite being shot at as they did so. When the siege, which had attempted the massacre of the entire foreign population and had put hundreds of Chinese converts to Christianity to the sword, was lifted, the foreign troops (and residents who had survived) were joined in looting and destruction by the Imperial troops, Muslim troops, surviving boxers, and the Chinese themselves. The Chinese, of course, like to airbrush all but the foreigners out of this picture.

The French have been trying for at least 20 years to put all the blame on the English for the damage of 1860, but records and eye-witness accounts do not support this. Items were put aside not only for Queen Victoria but for Napoleon III, too.

The 'soul of China' (made by foreigners) is just poetic hooey to disguise yet again the awful slaughter of Chinese culture conducted since 1949, often in a systematised way. When the Anglo-French forces arrived China was already under a barbarian (as they liked to think) occupation (which happened to go on to produce two of the greatest rulers they ever had) so the analogy with an imaginary sack of the Louvre is flawed from the start. If, however, the Europeans had regained control and then proceeded to smash themselves everything else they had, pulling down the Parthenon, the British Museum, the Pergamon, the Vatican, and selling the contents (often by weight) or melting them down, and using the stone for other purposes, we might be getting somewhere, although to describe the French kings as enlightened is nearly as daft as describing the Manchu emperors of the Great Qing Empire as such.

No one has offered any defence of the deplorable looting and destruction of the Summer Palace, so a straw man has been set up here. It's nice to have the full facts, though, and not to imagine the Anglo-French forces just happened to turn up in Beijing in a bad mood and wanted something to do. There were reasons (not excuses, however) why they were there.

What is wished for is that the indoctrination of the Chinese people wasn't such that even those obviously intelligent and better informed wouldn't forgetfully describe the destruction of a group of palaces and gardens as "one of the darkest moment[s] in China's history" while understanding very well this isn't true. What is also wished for is that the full story (which is bad enough) be told without deliberate omission or gross embellishment, and that it be realised that the destruction of the palaces outside Beijing, while greatly to be regretted, was neither more than a fraction of one per cent of the destruction carried out by the Chinese themselves since then, nor more than a mere blip compared to far viler things carried out by the British and the French elsewhere.

It's a big help if foreigners who should know better don't contribute to the breast-beating and crocodile tears, or to the propagation of vast hyperbole and distorted history, but simply dealt with the unpleasant facts of the case, and in their full context.

I happen to think that the Old Summer Palace is well worth visiting because the ruins that remain are quite a surprise, once you've passed by the rest of the tawdry muck. Best not to read the signs, though, which are so full of lies, half-truths, and xenophobia (also known here as patriotism), that Chinese visitors have been known to accost foreigners and ask "Are you satisfied with what you did?" as if either party to the conversation could conceivably have had anything to do with events before they were born. Such is the triumph of propaganda over logic and common sense.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

I do not look at the destruction of the palace as a stand alone event. Rather I think it represents an aweful period in China's history. That's why I say it is one of the darkest moments in China's history. I have to admit that I don't know the whole story of YMY, just like I don't know the whole story of many other things that are happening in the world right now, look no further than what is happening in the middle east. Having traveled to many parts of the world, I do realize how limited my formal school education was.

Well now, here's an interesting post! Having gone off against the English and their continued disingenuousness about the Elgin marbles on the Europe board, Spygirl finds that Elgin was busy doing his looting thing over in this part of the world as well! (acc. to ET)

Btw, Peter, who, in your estimation, are the two greatest emperors, Qianlong and?

Then comes Pooky, with his amusing post: "Peter, I know the markets sell fake things, but I don't care, I like them, give me more!

As far as the Hong Qiao Pearl Market in Beijing, it's been said many times before on this board: However fake and low quality the pearls that are sold there may be, I and many, many others love it, it's a great place to pick up lots of souvenirs for pearl lovers both fake and real-have you ever seen how much the costume jewelry pearls sold in shops and dept. stores cost? Let me tell you, a WHOLE lot more than the "inferior, low quality" real/fake pearls sold at Hong Qiao!

I have a very expensive pearl necklace and I hardly ever wear it-but my low-quality pearls from Hong Qiao? All the time, AND I get compliments for those HQ pearls as well! You discount the cachet value, Peter, associated with telling people "oh, yes, picked them up for practically nothing in the Pearl Market in Beijing!"

Bholson-as you point out, Hong Qiao is in the part of the city near the Temple of Heaven-I think you would find the market a most enjoyable place to visit and a worthwhile place to pick up inexpensive souvenirs for friends and family.

Didn't have the patience to read all the arguments, but remember that the Qing emperors aren't even Han Chinese. They are Manchurians from NE of China. ;)

I would be interested to hear Peter's view on "the greatest Emperors of China". I presume Yongzheng is one of them? Also, can Peter recommend some good sources for accurate ducomentation of China's history? Thanks.

This is the third posting this person has made, and all three are about Jane Yeo.

They also make comments which could only be justified by having made a direct comparison between using a guide and shopping oneself--comparisons which clearly have not been made.

A guide cannot get you better airfares than you can get for yourself. You will pay more because he or she will want a commission.

A guide cannot get you better hotel rates than you can get for yourself by just walking in and asking for a discount. You will have to pay a commission.

Worse, most guides happily insert themselves between you and the best price just as websites do. They get the same 50% off hotel rooms you could get for yourself. You hear about 20% of this discount and think you are doing well. Airfares are also open to bargaining, but guides will commonly cut a deal with an agency for a kick-back, and you will not get the best price ticket available anyway.

There's no mystery here. It's no different from letting a taxi driver choose your hotel in many different countries--it's going to the one run by his brother, or which pays him kick-backs.

If you must have a guide in China who you are already paying well, the last thing you should be doing, unless money really is no object, is letting him or her handle such arrangements. A single trip into a travel agent is going to save you a lot of money. Your guiding fee is going to be doubled by all the kick-backs you don't know you are paying.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

I want everyone to know that the local authorities in Wilmington North Carolina, allowed the tearing down of the old histroric "Ice House" here in Wilmington. I believe they are building condos in it's place. Is there some way we can blame the Chinese for this?

okminty - Yes we can. The Chinese use forced prison labor to make cheap textile, and then dump them at below-prison-cost in the US. That basically run the whole Southeastern US economy to the ruins. Wilmington, NC, has no choice, but to tear down everything they have in order to create a couple of low-paying construction jobs to keep Carolinians from dying from hunger.

;) [I hope people take the smiley seriously.]

Could we then stop all this by not wearing clothes?

Peter, my post about good source for China history is serious. Even though I don't agree with everything you said, I think some of your points are refreshing and interesting. I was often frustrated with the difficulties to get reliable information regarding to history and world affairs.

For a readable single-volume history of China, albeit only from part-way through the Ming onwards try The Search for Modern China by Jonathan D. Spence.

Spence has also written individual titles on the Kangxi emperor, the Taiping Rebellion, on one of the first Chinese to visit Europe, on how Jesuit Matteo Ricci managed to be the first to gain permission to reside in Beijing, and on a case of treason during the reign of the Yongzheng emperor. All are very readable.

On the whole question of the history of the relationship between China and outsiders, The Sextants of Beijing by Diana Waley-Cohen is much more interesting than its daft title suggests, and deals with the passage of technology and ideas in both directions. Needless to say, as with other countries, very little happened in China in isolation and the influence of neighbours was as strong as Chinese influence in the other direction.

I'd agree that there's a great deal of dreadful material on the events in Tian'an Men Guangchang, especially the worst of the look-at-me 'journalism' by foreign reporters such as that idiot Kristof fro the New York Times. But for a more mature view of the events and in the broader perspective of various other behind-the-scenes efforts to introduce a little plurality into Chinese politics (all of which were set back or destroyed by the student demonstrations) read Black Hands of Beijing by George Black and Robin Munro.

I've just started Retreat of the Elephants--An Environmental History of China by Mark Elvin, which looks promising, and considerably more poetic than its title suggests, although rather distressing, too.

For contemporary politics there's so much choice: The Tiananmen Papers, Li Zhisui's account of Mao Zedong, and even from within China there's Zhongguo Nongmin Diaocha (in characters, if they appear:

??????)

which was selling fast until banned, and is now selling even faster in bootleg copies. It shouldn't be hard to get someone to obtain one for you (mine's on it's way. You can find a few pages at www.blogchina.com).

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Thanks. I flipped through Li Zhishui's book on Mao. (These types of biographies should be discounted and I never quite like them.) Saw one edition of Zhongguo Nongmin Diaocha. (So you read Chinese well.) I think I know current affairs relatively well. I am more interesed in the accounts on history, which is harder to get to the trueth due to historical distortions.

I guessed for sure that Jonathan Spence's book would be at the top of Peter's list :) - after all, Spence (another Britisher), engages to a certain extent in revisionist history, slanted in favor of Great Britain or Europe.

That said, it's difficult to write modern history without some kind of slant. There are historians of "modern" China who slant towards the Communists; others who slant towards the Nationalists; others - who consider themselves "patriots" and slanted towards neither, however, do tend to slant towards the modern concept of "nationalism" and therefore are anti-Manchu, anti-Qing, who all of a sudden have become "non-Chinese, non-Han"; still others want to interpret Confucianism by layering on some modern school of philosophy, thus rendering the original almost unrecognizable; still others try to interpret Chinese history from the European point of view or the Marxist point of view or... and on and on. Who was it that said "You can't really write 'history' until 200 years have passed since the events"?

Apart from this aside, Jonathan Spence's writings are a wonderful read, mainly because he writes such beautiful English. If you agree with his world view then it's a fantastic read. The volume on the Kangxi emperior is a gem.

For myself, having been blessed during my youth with the presence and company of some of the greatest scholars (European, Asian, and American) of Asia in the 20th century, and having at one time struggled to learn classical Mongolian, Manchu, and Tibetan (yes, and Chinese as well), I offer - with some hesitancy - the following list of authors whom I consider as having a more objective view than most:

These are for "general" reading, as there is a wealth of scholarly articles and books on specific aspects of China.

The dean of American scholars on Chinese history was John K Fairbank. He teamed with Edwin Reischauer on a two volume work on East Asia; Fairbank did the China part and Reischauer, an equally eminent scholar, did the Japan part. These two volumes are getting to be a bit "old" and in need of an update, but they are still pretty thorough and somewhat objective. Fairbank later authored another history of China which was finished just prior to his death in 1991. Although this later volume has more of modern China in it, my own preference is still for the older two volume production. Fairbank and Reischauer have both been criticized for their pro-American approach and justifiably so.

A more accessible book is by Theodore de Bary (Columbia University), "Sources of Chinese Tradition", which are translations from the original Chinese with valuable comments added. de Bary's volume is an excellent introduction to Chinese culture and thought. He has also compiled two other volumes "Sources of Japanese Tradition" and "Sources of Korean Tradition". If you want to understand classical China, this is the best one volume easy guide. I call it "accessible" because each translation is a stand-alone work and so the entire book is in digestible chunks.

Michael Sullivan of Oxford University has written several excellent books on Chinese art. A wonderful book of his, "The Arts of China", is a great introduction to the Chinese arts. A bigger work along the same vein is Robert Thorp and Richard Vinograd's "Chinese Art and Culture".

For a book on one Chinese art: the Chinese garden, try Maggie Keswick's "The Chinese Garden". I believe that anyone who visits the palace-gardens or the gardens of Suzhou should read something about Chinese gardens, otherwise, just touring them (especially when some of them are to soome degree in a delapidated state) might be a bit of a mystifying experience.

Anything by Frances Wood, curator of the Chinese section at the British Library, is especially objective and well done. Her Blue Guide to China is very detailed, has a number of wonderful anecdotes, and, IMHO, is the best travel guide to China in terms of explaining China's culture at each historical site. Second best guide is the Rough Guide to China.

If you want to read Chinese literature in translation, my own personal preference is for Arthur Waley's works as well as the translations of Chinese poetry by Ezra Pound. Arthur Waley also translated some Japanese classics, such as "The Tales of Genji", as well as a Mongol classic, "The Secret History of the Mongols." Having struggled through classical Mongolian, I really appreciate the way Waley translated the "Secret History", a very difficult work to translate.

If you can read Chinese, you could try and access the official histories for each dynasty. This could conceivably occupy you for the rest of your life - lo!

Recently, in Marin County, I had the good fortune to listen to Simon Winchester and Jan Morris in person and then obtain a signed copy of Simon Winchester's "The River at the Center of the World [about the Yangtze River]." I'm looking forward to reading Winchester's book. Jan Morris had wrote a book on Hong Kong, which unfortunately I could not have signed. I'm looking forward to reading that book as well. BTW, Simon Winchester wrote the very popular "The Professor and The Madman", about the making of the Oxford English Dictionary. He's very enjoyable to read. These are "light" reading material for me, rather than scholarly works.

Well, there's my list off the top of my head. Everyone has favorites and I'm certain others will add to this list or post a comment/objection to one book or another on my list. The literature on China is enormous and the writings in Chinese is equally voluminous. Whatever you pick, I hope you will receive enormous pleasure in reading it! :)

Thanks Easytraveler. Now I get your point on Jonathan Spence and Peter even without reading Spence's book :) I'll start with John Fairbank's book on China and Japan (I am going to Japan in September, so this book will help.) It would be interesting to see how a relatively more objective Western point of view on China differs from the Chinese point of view. Interestingly just read an editorial on yesterday's WSJ comparing Li Peng and Lee Kuan Yew.

Who is Peter N-H?

I'd like to ask questions regarding our second trip to China and have did so prior to our first visit. I and others have been stung by his remarks and I have been rebuked (by him) for singling him out as unkind.

I guess I have been on the Australian board too long where information is imparted with intelligence, humour and grace. If the answer comes back that he gives really good information (which could be true) can you imagine how much better it would be if he treated us as equals. What a difference it would make if he didn't make some of us feel stupid.

Could anyone tell me what Peter N-H's credentials are without having to ask "himself" to reply? I've followed up on his website but couldn't pinpoint if he lives in China (I know he has business there according to his posts), is he Chinese? Is he one of those recruited volunteers whose job it is to write for this forum (if this is done)?

Are others reluctant to post due to some of the scathing answers given?

Cheers! I have my head covered.

Sorry for the typos: "some" and "dilapdated" (Oh, groan! "dilapidated")and any other typos.

xgao: You are most welcome! :) I'd like to suggest that, before you buy any of these books and if it is at all possible that, you go to a major library and see if it has these volumes. It's a lot of money to invest, sight unseen. Fairbank and Reischauer may be accurate with their information, but they are kind of dry and pedantic to read.

At the library, you may find another history of China that will be more readable.

At the moment, I'm half-way through Simon Winchester's "The River at the Center of the World" and find it most enjoyable. Winchester used to be a journalist, so he knows how to write to attract readers, unlike the ponderous academics.

And dear me, I didn't mean for people not to read Jonathan Spence, who has written a very important work on modern China. It's a far far better experience to be led down the garden path by Spence than to be beat about the head and shoulders by the Chinese Marxist and Communist writers with their sledgehammer brand of propaganda. I encourage you to read Spence if you want to know about modern China, just understand what his "slant" is.

If you are interested in modern China but before the Communist era, try any of Frederic Wakeman, Jr.'s (UC Berkeley)works.

There are so many many good books on China and the "Far" East, but there are also so many god-awful ones too. :)

michi: "Who is Peter N-H?"

As far as I can determine - and I could be very wrong - Peter N-H is Peter Neville-Hadley. He has authored/edited several guidebooks to China. In the year 2000 Cadogan &quot;Beijing&quot; volume, this is what is said about the author: &quot;Peter Neville-Hadley first visited China in 1986, returning repeatedly to visit new areas while improving his Mandarin. He contributed to the second edition of Cadogan's <i>Central Asia</i> guide, before spending two years crossing and re-crossing the country and writing <i>China, The Silk Routes</i> for Cadogan. He writes regularly on China and other Asian destinations for periodicals in the UK, Canada, Hong Kong, China and Japan. This new Beijing guide is the product of three extended periods of residence in the capital over a period of 18 months, and a fourth during final corrections as the book went to press. Originally British, he now calls Vancouver home, and even occasionally spends some time there.&quot;

I do offer Peter Neville-Hadley my most profound apologies if he is NOT Peter N-H. (It would, of course, be a most extraordinary coincidence to have two people writing on China, both named Peter and both have a hyphenated last name, of which the first two letters are both N and H).

Peter has excellent travel-related information to give, mainly because it is up to date, like which train to take, etc. However, there are other posters, like rkkwan, Cicerone, Kathie, and several others, who are equally knowledgeable and who are much more civil in their tone. So, ask away, and I'm certain the others will be more than happy to assist you.

Me, too, I've got my head covered as well. C:)

I will certianly read Johnathan Spence's book as well. That's how one gets a balanced view anyway.

Michi -- In response to your question, I have stopped posting on Beijing because of Peter N-H. It's just too disheartening and depressing to be constantly cut down by his ultra-superior attitude. Perhaps I am just another &quot;airhead expat,&quot; but I do live and work in Beijing and feel that my experiences could be somewhat helpful to visitors. Yet, according to Peter ALL expats live in a &quot;bubble&quot; -- thanks for judging my lifestyle without even knowing me! -- and are therefore unqualified to offer advice. Maybe it's my own loss, but I barely read the Asia board anymore. For me, Peter N-H has made an open forum, which should be crammed with diverse and varied opinions, insufferable with his arrogance. His advice is fine (as good as any guide book) but it's just not worth the attitude. Sorry to get this off my chest, but I've felt this way for a long time.
Petitepois

Petitepois- I've been wondering how our Beijing ex-pat is doing-how are you? Please do come back-many people would like to hear from you, particularly me!

Yes, Peter's contributions not infrequently contain condescending put-downs, but let's keep a sense of perspective here. Are we such sensitive flowers that a breath of disapproval by one poster can drive us away? If you don't like what he says, fight back. Don't be bluffed.

Second, let's bear in mind that few if any contributors to these forums provide so much advice gratis - consider the work entailed in mailing out the hutong walks info to all comers, for a start. Some Fodors forums (Europe especially) are infested with people who put other posters down but provide no offsetting value.

Dear Neil,

I've tried to accept the good information provided as you suggest: &quot;Are we such sensitive flowers that a breath of disapproval by one poster can drive us away? If you don't like what he says, fight back. Don't be bluffed.&quot;

One doesn't fight back in this case, I tried once, Neil, and I've never been good at taking condescension well and will probably go to my grave lacking that skill. If you can't find my prior posts it's because I registered under one name and it worked for awhile but later I could not get into the forum. Eventually I changed to &quot;michi&quot; which seems to work.

We had some good information for our China trip last year (including Beijing hutons) from this forum but reading some of this author's posts disturbed me, not so much due to content (but sometimes) but for lack of respect for the view of others.

We are thinking of a second trip to China so that's why I'm back.

PS. Neil, try reading Stephen Leacock's &quot;Literary Lapses.&quot; He's a Canadian died 1944). It's quite an old book but one I think you'll enjoy - hilarious.

Beijing Hutongs

Spelling error in last post. Although we wanted to go the Beijing Hutongs on our last day in China, I was not feeling well so stayed close to the hotel.

To our happy surprise (serendipity perhaps) we chanced on a rather small hutong right behind the hotel. When I later compared photos with postcards of the more well known ones, I found many similarities although the one we saw was much smaller. But that had its advantages by being do-able. We saw children playing in a small school courtyard, groups of neighbours chatting, and even a gentleman who was either thrown or just came tumbling out of one of the small homes. Veggies drying in the sun, some working, some lazing - one of our trip highlights.

Michi, I've now realised that MY post contained a put-down! Where will it all end? Sorry, all I meant is that IF people think they're being bullied, the best way to deal with that problem is common knowledge. (Er - am I doing it again? After your very complimentary reference for the Australia forum I'll have to watch my Ps and Qs.)

Thanks for the Leacok tip - I'll try to dig that one out of the local library. I think I read something by him once but a long time ago.

While on the subject of Canadian writers, I STRONGLY recommend Will Ferguson's &quot;Hokkaido Highway Blues&quot;, an account of his hitch-hike from one end of Japan to the other - very funny and (to this ignoramus, anyway) seemingly insightful. He also wrote a book called &quot;Why I Hate Canadians&quot; (don't worry, it probably won't send your blood pressure up - I'm sure the title's tongue-in-cheek).

To drft a little off-topic, another very funny travel writer is the Englishman Pete McCarthy, author of &quot;McCarthy's Bar&quot; and &quot;The Road to McCarthy&quot;.

Peter may have an air about him and make some people mad at times, (myself included) but he is often the first one to offer his advice and does so even tho we posters ask the same questions over and over. Is everyone so thin skinned? Is Peter Arogant? Maybe Knowledgeable? Absolutely. Let a 100 flowers blossom and a 100 ideas compete. Or something like that.

Hi Okminty

With all due respect, Peter is not the only knowledgeable person on this or any travel forum who answers the same questions over and over and over and over and over....

Enough said. I have it off my chest (such as it is). Let those intimidated contributors reemerge and provide us with their views.

Cheers!

PS. Neil, I'll send you my Literary Lapses by Leacock if you can't find it. I'll contact you and give you my email address.

Did I say Only? Did I say thin skin? Now that i have that off my chest.... I do not think that my wife and I could be going to China independantly without these and other forms and I think we all owe a big thank you to Fodors and Frommers and others that allow these to thrive. Again I thank everybody for their input. Will try to put in a report when we get back in October to see if I still feel the same. Let the debates go on.

This is one very useful thread.

CONDECENSION: It's hard to deal with emotions via email. Peter sounds blunt but seems well informed. Nevertheless, I could be wrong. I am a newbie so will withhold judgment.

WESTERN OPRESSORS: This is one of my most favorite topics. Why? When some Westerners decry the ruin brought about by their ancestors on &quot;other&quot; cultures, they fail to credit those &quot;other&quot; cultures for:

1. Their considerable strengths.
2. Their own follies.

It is almost as if quaint and helpless &quot;other&quot; societies were set upon as they nursed their babies and tilled their fields, noble, defenseless and cowardly.

T'aint so.