Booking Hotels and Transportation in Countries with Limited Tourist Infrastructure - How do you do it?
 

We've had mixed experiences in India, Sri Lanka, Bali and Myanmar booking hotels and transportation either directly or indirectly through agencies and/or 3rd parties. Recent posts by Robbietravels, dogster et al have confirmed that there may be no best way. What do you think? We are heading to Vietnam in April - hotels and transportation booked through an agency with fingers crossed...we will be doing a lot on our own this time but not hotels or long distance ground transportation.

Craig-
I think for some places this may be true, but I'm not sure it applies to Vietnam. Though I guess that depends on <i>where</i> you are going in Vietnam.

I'm not done planning my trip to Vietnam, but I do expect I will book all the hotels myself. It seems like just about every place has a website nowadays. Not yet certain about flights and train travel. I may need to get my hotel in Hanoi to help with that. I'm not sure why, but I seem to do anything I can to avoid using a travel agent. In my experience, it's rare that they save me money and I don't really mind the time spent in the research.

I look forward to hearing about your trip when you get back as I'm sure I will learn a lot from your recent experience.

Kristina, just for perspective, I have used local agencies in all of the places I have mentioned for hotels especially, and always at substantial savings. This does not apply to Vietnam where I am only really visiting 3 places - Hanoi, Halong Bay and Sapa - the prices I have obtained from my agency are in line with what is available on the internet. However, because I had to arrange overnight trains to and from Sapa plus transport and the cruise at Halong Bay, it made more sense to deal with a reliable local agency in Hanoi.

Craig, which agency are you using in Hanoi? Are you happy with their response so far?

Even in places in which I think the infrastructure is 'good', I've had problems making arrangements directly. Seems like many places have specific routes through which they expect to receive business, and don't quite know what to do with traffic from outside established lines. Costa Rica, Argentina and Nicaragua come most readily to mind. I felt comfortable making my own arrangements, but did much better with an agent.

It seems like it is only after I've established a connection in person that I am encouraged to make direct contact next time.

I also get the feeling that sometimes I am not given priority if I don't use an agent. I felt like I missed a lot in Malaysia by booking the trip myself (cancelled tours, etc). In East Africa and India the name of our tour company/agnecy seemed to open a lot of doors and moved us to the front of the line more than once. I also must point out that, most of the time, I don't mind having 'handlers' but one does run the risk of this task being poorly managed. Ideally I like to feel like I'm being aided in experiencing an itinerary of my choosing.
I was quite happy to leave my Vietnam trip to the agency, and they honored most of my requests.

I've traveled to Vietnam twice, and both times I booked all my hotels myself, directly. Some of them in person (i.e. after I arrived in town). But I stay in budget hotels, and what works for them may not work as well if you're going more upmarket.

I bought my train and plane tickets through a local agency after I arrived, and booked my Halong Bay excursion the same way. My first visit I traveled on to Cambodia by boat, and I booked that directly with the tour company in Saigon.

I think we need to define 'limited tourist infrastructure'.

Compared to what? I think all the countries mentioned so far have comparitively highly developed tourist infra-structures, actually - BUT ONLY if you want to do what every other tourist since the dawn of creation has done before.

Accept your role, put your idiot blinkers on, get on the bus, get off the bus, check-in, check-out, see the sights in order, tip heavily [and completely unnecessarily], trundle to the next place and the next... and everything is easy, smooth and fine.

Ptoooey, we sniff. That's not the kind of travellers WE are. We are adventurers, voyageurs into secret spece... we go our own way, follow our own drum, cast that first footstep into virgin sand and snow...

But actually, all we do is what everybody else does. All our inmdividual planning comes to naught - we end up seeing the same old stuff, but in our car, with our driver - not a bus. Actually, we are every bit on the usual tourist shlep as the bus-tours.

We think by staying in our boutique hotels and hiring our car and guide that we'll somehow avoid every tourist trap and hell-hole - but there's ANOTHER circuit of just these places, just as tightly run and controlled.

Read the trip reports in here: Vietnam, Burma, Laos, Thailand, Sri Lanka - put them side by side. You'll see that EVERYBODY does the same thing, one way or another. I could give you a Sri Lanka itinerary with my eyes closed. Same for Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Laos... Same places, same hotels, same guides, same, same same.

Do the exercise. Put four Sri Lankan itineraries together from the trip reports in here, each personally made, crafted, worried over individually, researched impeccably, the product of months of individual investigation - they all end up exactly the same.

Then do that with Cambodia. Rajasthan. Laos. Need I go on?

The 'limited tourist infrastructure' kicks in the minute we try to break the mould. In fact, the infrastructure is perfectly fine - there are cars, there are mobile phones, there is an internet. The problem comes, not with the infrastructure - but the minds in charge of it. [Oh, there's another little problem, but I'll get to that...]

One of the many issues in this complex question is, therefore, how to deal with MIND-SET, not periferals.

And stop thinking that we are somehow breaking the mould. Vietnam has been crawling with tourists since the Seventies. Bucket loads of loud Australians have been carving their lumpen trail thru that country for decades. You ain't the first. It ain't intrepid. It's a giant sausage machine thru which ten of thousands of tourists pass every year. Nothing limited about that infrastructure. Tourist India is exactly the same. Burma too, there are fewer tourists, but the sausage machine is just as active.

So, let's step outside the tourist route - which is what most of us in here think we're doing when we travel - and be a little independent. As well as dealing with a different mindset we may as well begin to deal with our OWN mindset. The issues we have on tour are as much to do with our OWN expectations, assumptions and mind-set as they are with the locals.

It may well be US with the 'limited infrastructure.'

If we can fathom the mindset of those we are dealing with, everything gets easy. Ever lost your temper in S.E. Asia? Doesn't work. Ever stood helpless against that blank wall of incomprehension where rational thought is required? Ever had yet another sweet Thai hostess bow low and simper - then do nothing to help you at all? Ever tried to encourage lateral thought in an Asian guide? Ever tried to stop an Indian tour guide give his practiced spiel? Ever been done over by a blank-faced receptionist - sorry, sir, that room you requested is full...

There's a way to avoid it all - AND maintain your independence. But the missing infrastructure is within ourselves, alas - not on the ground.

I know this is sounding obtuse, but actually, like many a locked castle, the entrance is not through the heavily guarded front door. You have to sneak round the side and look for the grubby back gate, then sneak in past the sleeping sentries to get to the master's chamber.

Think of it as show-biz. I'll SHOW YOU - that's my BUSINESS. Think of the travel industry as a Broadway musical. Who was the great man who said 'there's a sucker born every minute?'

Think of it as a seller of dreams. That's what the great hotels do - they sell dreams. For $$$ you can come and pretend at my place. We can play dress-ups and Agatha Christie murder mysteries on the Orient Express, we can live the live of colonial tea-planters in the Sri Lankan hills, we can we the Great White Hunter... come play dress-up with me, come on safari, ride on the elephant back. But it's only make believe - ersatz adventures for ersatz explorers.

Don't huff! Don't puff! I do it too. We all do, one way or another. It's fine, it's cool, it's part of the deal, comes as part of the ticket. It's our duty.

It's THEIR duty to provide what they think we want. They are the actors, we are the audience. Curtain up! Showtime! Curtain down.

It's our eternal mistake to ever think it is anything else. It's a show. The problem is: we think we've bought tickets to OUR show - they think we've bought tickets to THEIRS.

Hmmmmm. What to do? I'll continue this meditation later...

We fearless independent travelers want the whole show but we want to be the only ones in the audience. We've come a long way. We want a good show, tailored to our individual preconceptions. Trouble is: we might have gone with the wrong preconceptions. No wonder we get kinda disappointed.

The ticket only buys one thing - private box in the dress circle or bleachers - the show is just the same.

Angkor Wat is Angkor Wat. The Mekong is the Mekong. Tea Trails is Tea Trails, whatever you do, Oberoi is Oberoi is Oberoi. So what makes our individual journeys so .. well, individual? It's not, mostly, the things we see,the sites, the temples, the history - it's our living immersion in a moment in time, unfettered by twin expectations.

Difficult to achieve. On the tourist trail, the inevitable shlep, every step of the shlep is guarded, by a guide, by a driver, by an avenue of touts. It's where you are - so it's where they are.
They have the merchandising franchise for this patch of ground. You are a business opportunity.

How to glide through with a smile and a laugh? How to push past the sea of faces? How to be comfortable in the grip of a schedule that forces these choices upon us?

How do I deal with the tour guide from hell? How do I deal with a liar? Why does every cab driver, rickshaw man take me for a ride, why can't I just trust, just for once, and let it slide?

We have to accept our part in the performance, we have to accept their role up on stage. Remember, we are visiting their theatre, the show has been running for years and, quite frankly, they couldn't care less what you say.

The degree to which they will PRETEND they care is in direct correlation with the amount of money you pay.

I don't think it is politically incorrect to say that there is an Asian mindset that differs, in most significant ways, from that of the average Westerner. One crucial thing to bear in mind when dealing with men, particularly, in S.E.Asia and the Indian sub-continent is the the concept of 'loss of face'.

The worst dramas, bar none, on the road in S.E Asia, always involve this issue, one way or another. It's way, way, way too hard for me to even attempt an explanation of this phenomenon. You either understand me, or you don't. Pride is everything.

Yours and theirs.

So, in response to a practical question, I've launched off on some riff about some obtuse travel philosophy of my own. Sorry Craig. Just had to get that off my chest. lol. dunno why.

Now, let me be specific:

There are three issues:
Planning
On the Ground
Dealing with horrible things en route.

Think of your trip as modules. I break mine down into 2/3 day chunks.

Each chunk is a different show. Mostly they are self-contained entertainments. Eg: three nights at Hotel de la Paix + temples is your show. Three nights at Tea Trails in Sri Lanka is your show. Three nights Delhi/Agra/Jaipur is your show. Mostly each show comes with a self-contained range of mini-entertainments, all of which can be sourced from inside the 'theatre'.

All you have to do is get yourself from one show to another.

Do you really need the same car, same driver, same touring bubble sitting waiting, ever waiting outside the theatre? Actually - probably not. Think about it.

Because if you can rid yourself of the tyranny of the car and dedicated driver, the tour company in whose interests it is to keep you shlep,shlep,shlepping down the road, you have broken the nexus.

You are no longer in someone's control.

Yes, you transfer that mega-control to a series of little controls, each self-contained in the 'theatres' you visit. Nothing new about that. We do it all the time.

But it means that each show is unique. Each set of circumstances can be tweaked. BUT you have to be prepared. More on that later.

The main point here is to free yourself of the dedicated car and driver. It's an incredibly simple concept but I'll bet that many people don't even consider doing it that way. [judging by multiple posts in here, anyway].

We can all cop a dreary sod in the car for a day - but not for a week. Worse are the show-ponies. Remember, the best of them are arch-manipulators, the better they are the less you'll know.

Look for their jewellery. Look at their shoes. No matter what they tell you, they earn more money than 90% of the population. They are in the tourist industry. A seat on that bus costs gold.

Everything is connected, from the moment you shake that first guide's hand. What do you think he's jabbering on his mobile phone? He's talking about you, what you're like, how dumb you are.

He doesn't know anything about you - just your name. That's literally it - nothing more. There you are, gawd, I'm stuck with that, for a week, help me Shiva, what a bore....

Then it's 'SHOWTIME!!!' Well, hello there, what a pleasure... what a great time we'll all have, yes, of course....

Who is the actor? Who is the audience? Show has started. Don't forget it. Do your duty.

Everything is connected. The tour company knows the drivers knows the hotel operators knows the hustlers knows the merchants, knows the boat men knows the whores. It's an industry. It's a mafia - large or small. The smaller it is the MORE connected.

Worse is when you stumble upon a mafia within a mafia. By staying at one hotel you have automatically joined sides. That hotel is connected to the taxi driver waiting outside. But only CERTAIN taxi-drivers. The taxi driver is connected to the shop-keepers. But only CERTAIN shop-keepers.

If you piss one off all the rest hear about it, every stop, every shop, every transaction on the way. Yup, that's what they're chatting about on their mobile phone. Tourist beware. heh. Mostly tourist has no idea.

Boutique tourism in Sri Lanka is a cottage industry. Just hop from house to house. Vietnam is a sausage-factory, just pick the kind of sausage you want. Cambodia you can do with your eyes closed. Most do - see temples, miss the land-mines, see gold pagodas, choose to not-see Pol Pot. Burma is a Disneyland ride for those who cannot see. For those with eyes it's a mystery world, and the more you look the less you find. Burma has walls. Thailand you can tumble thru with a smile and a laugh, scarcely a plan...

But only, in the Dogster way, from 'theatre to theatre', show by show. And not in the backpacker manner, not for an instant. It all boils down to Craig's initial question. How to get from show to show. Everything else is covered.

That's where you spend the money you've saved by not having a dedicated car, driver, guide, bottle-washer and tour company.

You make those transfers as easy as you can. Hotel car to airports, limo pick-ups, one way drivers to the next place on your way. Get each hotel to arrange a pick-up from the last. Fixed fee, no drama, at least the driver will know the way.

That's how I'm doing all of India. Works for me. Simple really - you just have to lose that last bit of security.

Phew. I'll have to go and lie down. I've just had an attack of the words.

Kristina, we are using Tonkin Travel in Hanai. So far, they have been very responsive.

Dogster, you'll be somewhat pleased to know that while we are using an agency for one-stop shopping (and therefore some accountability if things go wrong), we will not have a full-time driver and/or guide at our disposal for our northern Vietnam tour. That being said, with only 2 weeks on the ground, we want to have everything organized before we arrive rather than use valuable time making arrangements while we are there. It also reduces the risk of not getting exactly what we want due to lack of availability. That means Halong Bay cruise reservations, hotels, transfers (always in a 7-seat van) and overnight train in private sleeper car to/from Lao Cai/Sapa are all set up in advance. You'll have to wait until the end of April when I do my trip report to see if it all works out.

Interesting rant Dogster.
I have to say, for the most part, I agree with you. One of the things I find frustrating are the trip reports which are all &quot;same same but different&quot;.

I myself am guilty. I don't want to do the same things as everyone else, but as Craig says, with limited time (sometimes as short as 1 week) it's difficult. So, I console myself with the fact that &quot;it's not a package bus tour&quot; and I'm not forced to do the obligatory shopping stops and be herded on and off the bus. Instead, I have a &quot;bit&quot; of control.

You know, when I hear the phrase &quot;limited tourist infrastructure&quot; the first place that comes to mind for me (in my experience) is Taiwan. Not the typical &quot;third world&quot; countries like Nepal or Honduras, for as Dogster said, these are all well trod.
But in Taiwan, at least when I was there 10 years ago, I'd never felt so out of place. I've never been so frustrated by the lack of signs in English or people who speak it. Never felt so stared at. They weren't <i>used to</i> seeing tourists there, and thus, things were &quot;limited&quot; for the tourist in my experience. It was difficult to get around without help, but we did it.

It's frustrating. We all want to &quot;get off the beaten path&quot;. But how many of us have spent the same days with Tong in Bangkok or Ponheary in Siem Reap?
Yes, I very much enjoyed those days and would not trade them for anything else, but I have to admit they are &quot;same same&quot; as everyone else here.
OTOH, they are different than the hordes of package tourists who follow the umbrella and wear matching hats.
Yes, we all see the same temples and floating markets. But the package tour people spend no time in the schools of Siem Reap. They don't meet the abbot of the temple with the intricate wood carvings with Tong or make merit with the monks at 6am. Compared to a lot of people, what we do <i>is</i> &quot;off the beaten track&quot;.

Most of my friends and coworkers think I'm an intrepid traveler. I don't think so. But just yesterday someone asked my <i>why</i> I was planning a trip to Vietnam. She said, &quot;what's there? Are there tourist things?&quot; She just couldn't fathom why I'd want to go. It had never occurred to her to travel some place like that.

I don't know if I've gotten off track here. If so, I'm sorry. Dogster, you must have touched a nerve. :-)

&quot;limited tourist infrastructure&quot; conjures up places more like Afghanistan or Outer Mongolia in my mind. Makes the other countries look like a cake-walk.

&quot;Limited tourist infrastructure&quot; to me means that it exists but sometimes it's not all that easy to get things done even with e-mail and the internet. IMO, Afghanistan and Outer Mongolia would qualify as having NO tourist infrastructure. I guess everyone has a different perspective O:)

If by &quot;Outer Mongolia&quot; you are referring to the country of Mongolia, their tourism infrastructure is fine, no worse than many other third world countries. Many hotels, transportation, and restaurants are nicely up to western standards and getting around is no where near as bad as in many African and Asian countries.

I agree with NoFlyZone, no reason to lump Mongolia in with Afghanistan. Hotels, restaurants, internet access, tourist ger camps, organized tours, you name it. And even Afghanistan has hotels - just ask the people from the NGGOs. Come to that, Lonely Planet has a guide book for Afghanistan, next edition due in 2010. While on the subject of war zones, I believe you can now visit the Kurdish region of Iraq on an organized tour.

Actually, you're more likely to find limited tourist infrastructure by visiting some small town in the US or Western Europe that doesn't have any &quot;sights&quot;.

But I like having a dedicated car and minder!

I may want to watch the show, but may not want to see every single act. As Kristina points out, straying too far off the path is directly proportional to mounting frustration. Not my idea of vacation. I'm happier knowing what to expect, and I get that from the like minded travellers who post here. We may seem the same, but factor in the rest of our worlds (friends, acquaintances), and we remain quite different from the vast majority.

No need to apologise for livening up the discussion Dogster. Even if I don't choose your route, you make me aware of the option.

Dogster, although I loved your rant ( I haven't seen that many compound complex sentences since Updike), I think that I find travel much more like theater of the absurd than the sausage factory cum Broadway musical that you so aptly describe.

Where else can we experience dialogue that makes no sense, confusing &amp; pointless situations, and activity that lacks logical development if not our &quot;vacations&quot;?

Seems to me that no matter what your choices are, whether following the umbrella, or alone on the road, you will doubtless be sharing something in that experience with the thousands that have come before you. What makes it different,individual if you will, I think, is NOT what/how you do it, but what you leave with, and how you communicate that experience to others.

Is there a forum for ranting?

<i>Is there a forum for ranting? </i>
Mom, it's called &quot;the Lounge&quot;.
But we don't mind Dogster's rants here. Some of us look forward to them as long as he's being a <i>good doggy</i> and not a <i>bad boy.</i> ;-)

Dogster, you make some good points in your rant, but I think you gloss over some subtleties as well. I must admit that I bite my tongue (or is it bind my fingers?) every time I read the recommendations that everyone must tour with Tong in Bangkok or some other near-universal recommendation on this board. Many people on this board love Tong, but it doesn't mean everyone should hire her... or, in fact, hire a guide at all.

Every one of the regulars here could take the &quot;same&quot; trip - same itinerary - and have entirely different experiences. This has to do with lots of things - what interests each of us has, how we prefer to travel (hire a guide or not? hire a driver or not?), what we like to do. The differences are in how we choose to experience a place... some of that is simply being in the here and now, but some of it is doing the planning that allows us to have experiences we know will be special to us, some of it is being open to opportunities that present themselves.

You've probably seen me cite &quot;Kathie's rule for planning a trip&quot;: Know thyself; Know thy destination. I see the purpose of this forum as being a place to share what we know about destinations. Hopefully the reader knows herself/himself well enough to make decisions based on that information that will get them the experiences they seek.

Angkor Wat isn't merely Angkor Wat - there is dogster's Angkor, Kristina's Angkor, Craig's Angkor, Kathie's Angkor. And they are different, indeed. I can only speak of my own experience, but mine came without a guide since I'd been reading about Angkor for decades. It came with a driver I hired on the spot to take us to the temples we wanted to visit, and to drop us off and pick us up at the entrances we designated. Those are mere logistics, but logistics that allow me to have the experiences I seek. One of the highlights of my time in Siem Reap was being at Angkor Wat right after dawn, and having the place to ourselves - just a few quiet monks and nuns in the temple. We did half an hour of walking meditation before anyone else arrived. Another was visiting Preah Pithu, a tiny ruined wat, and spending an hour with two small boys talking about the wat and about their lives. Another was an hour in Ta Som, alone with the sound of the crickets. To some here (probably to many here) those things sound boring - but they were what I was seeking. We are all in search of different experiences.

What we often need help with is how to arrange the logistics to get the experiences we want. If Femi likes having a guide or a dedicated driver, there is likely someone here to give her recommendations. If I don't want a guide but want to get to an obscure place, no doubt someone here can give me some leads on how to accomplish that. If you want to have the hotel send a car and driver for you - great - others can relay their experiences. If I want to wing it with a taxi, someone here can tell me the usual price.

So I read Craig's question as &quot;how can I access the resources I need to arrange for the experiences I want to have in VN?&quot; And I agree that VN is harder than some places. For one thing VN has a very different view of intellectual property than the western view. If the guy down the street is doing good business in his hotel - give your hotel the same name. If every backpacker is looking for the Sinh Cafe - call your agency the Sinh Cafe as well. And the approach to traveller is less polished in VN. It's the only place I've ever visited where street vendors shout obscenities at you if you don't buy - what a marketing technique! Craig, I booked my hotel on the web. I waited until I was in Hanoi to arrange anything else we wanted. We hired a car and driver one day for a trip to the Perfume Pagoda, but otherwise wandered on our own.

Well, I'm tremendously disturbed [but then, you all knew that anyway] - I've been researching 'complex, compound sentences' only to discover that, after twenty minutes, I now have even LESS idea what they are.

As well as complex, compound sentences, I now realise I have only a rudimentary knowledge of English, per se.

So, not only am I guilty of ranting in public, but of bad grammar as well. It's a measure of what fine people you that you tolerate my little explosions. Particularly Craig, who probably felt he didn't deserve a Dogster rant in the middle of his nice, clean post. lol.

Alas, Kathie - ranting and subtlety are not words that sit easily side-by side. With my customary Australian charm and delicacy, I do have the tendency to call that spade a bloody shovel. Your more gentle approach always opens more doors. Dogster tends to line up his machine-guns and let rip.

In the midst of my mixed metaphors and complex compound sentences I think I was searching for a simple solution. Of course, there isn't one. I've simply noticed that the greatest risk to any of us when we travel is the combination of driver, car and guide. If they are bad we all know they can ruin a holiday. Of course, when they are good, the reverse. Mostly they are just ordinary. It's a case of 'the fewer the better' or 'the more the merrier'.

I've always been a promiscuous man, in the full sense of the word. More has always been better than less. I'd sooner have ten guides and drivers, rather than just one. I like to split the risk.

Part of this tho' is the fact that I travel solo. I can get easily outnumbered, bullied, lied to, led astray. Sometimes by the most charming of companions.

The good ones are the best actors in my little Broadway show. Like Tong, Ratt, Sgt. Kai, Ponheary etc etc they will give you a great time. But never forget - it's the same show. A hundred trip reports in here attest to that.

Now, there's nothing in the least wrong with this. Of course everybody will come away with their own opinions, their secret moments, but the show remains the same. It differs only in our perception... it's my sad duty to report that, in my experiences on the road, I rarely see a fellow traveller brave enough to break out of the mould. They are breaking out of THEIR mould, but they ain't breaking out of THE mould.

That's why I launched off into the rant. WE have the limited tourist infrastructure, not the countries we visit. And, in my humble opinion, most of it comes down to fear.

Of course, I can give you chapter and verse as to WHY this is. A thousand perfectly good reasons. Lack of time, freedom and cash are three pretty good ones to start with. It's pretty hard to be an expert in something you only do 2/3 weeks a year. It's difficult to be a local when you are just passing through. The unknown is scary.

My first good fortune has been the freedom to have the time [and, I guess the cash] to indulge my eccentricity. My second good fortune was to stumble into Fodors and discover there were some other fearless eccentrics - just like me.

Well, not QUITE like me.

My fearless eccentricty constantly borders on extreme stupidity. So, if I were you, I'd take what I say with a grain or two of salt.

More laughs than I usually get on a Thursday.

Better than the Stimulus Package ...you are more than likely guilty of far more than bad grammar, but no one on the planet can accuse you of lack ability to produce "re-action." I can send a book on grammar :) or ....

I look forward to reading about your India trip..