Gloria

Looking forward to my first trip to Asia! I have settled on Beijing as my initail destination, but, am open to other choices to fill my 15 days there. <BR><BR>We have traveled to Europe several times and rent cars with the purpose of getting off the beaten trail. Would you advise renting a car to explore the villages of China or traveling by train? If we use the train where would you suggest we go to enjoy the rural areas?<BR><BR>I have been reading this China Forum for awhile. What a great bunch of knowledgeable people! I know I will get a few of Peter's books, wow! This forum is lucky to have his expertise. <BR><BR>This said, can you tell me what I should know and where you would travel in these magical 15 days? <BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Gloria<BR>gloriaandmike100@hotm ail.com

Myszka

There area many things just to do in Beijing and in the area outside, the Ming and Xiang Tombs come to mind<BR> In Beijing, The Forbidden City alone almost takes a whole day to visit. Then you have the Dirt Market, Silk Alley, Confuscious Temple, The Heavenly Temple, The Summer Palace, the Great Wall, Tianaman Square, tours through the quadrangles, those are things off the top of my head. <BR> I'd also fly to Xian, and perhaps down to Shanghai. You might want to make a stop in Hong Kong and cross over to mainland China there and take a peek at Shenzen. (not sure of the spelling) Singapore might be a nice stop too.

Gloria

Myszka,<BR>Thank you for your response. The places you listed are exactly what I have been reading about. <BR>Have you ever gone into the rural areas? I would like to do this and am curious about the conditions of roads, how I may navigate given the language, and the cost of rental cars and insurance. I would also entertain the use of trains. <BR>Shanghai and Nanking both look rather interesting. I doubt that I would be seeing Hong Kong this trip. I think I shall save that for another.<BR>I appreciate the reply, Myszka.<BR>Thanks! <BR><BR>Any other thoughts?

J

If you go to Shanghai, may I suggest day trips to Hangzhou, Suzhou (beautiful gardens) and Zhou Zhuang Water Village(Venice of China). There is a nice silk factory/store in Suzhou you might want to visit. I also enjoyed the Shanghai Museum. Shopping is around Nanjing Road near the Bund area.<BR>There is not much to see in Nanking or Shenzhen except for shopping but you will enjoy shopping in Beijing and Shanghai better. Shenzhen is full of shoppers from nearby HongKong<BR>and make sure you hold on tight to your purse or backpacks in Shenzhen. My sister had her bag snatched here. It's really crowded here on the weekends. In Guangzhou, shopping can be found along Beijing Road area. Enjoy your trip.

J

Driving in Beijing and rural areas would be fine but I wouldn't drive in Shanghai or Guangzhou. In Shanghai I used the Travel Services Office at Jin Jiang Tower for my day trips and other bookings. In Guangzhou, I used the Travel Office at the Garden Hotel for bus tickets to Shenzhen &amp; HongKong.

Gloria

JN, thanks for the post. I am suprised that you didn't find much in Nanking. I guess that's a misconception I have. I don't care much for shopping, but, would love to find some beautiful silk to bring home and, if possible, a nice kimono to hang on my walls. I will certainly research Hangzhou, Suzhou (beautiful gardens) and Zhou Zhuang Water Village(Venice of China).<BR>Thanks for your post. It is greatly appreciated. <BR>

Peter N-H

A few thoughts on what's above:<BR><BR>Renting a car is perfectly possible, but China is not the same as Europe. There is one rental company at Beijing's Capital Airport which if you show up with an air ticket indicating you've just arrived for a visit, and an international driving licence, and a *lot* of money, will rent you a self-drive vehicle. You are limited to driving within the Beijing metropolitan area, unless you pay a substantial extra fee for driving beyond that. But the rules of the road amount to little more than 'I'm bigger than you so out of my way.' Paris' Charles de Gaulle Etoile or the ring around Rome's Coliseum are nothing in comparison. In short, you won't be driving yourself.<BR><BR>While many hotels offer the services of a car with driver, in general you should just flag down taxis in the street the day before you want to make your trip to the countryside (not talk to those waiting outside your hotel) and bargain, if you know where you want to go outside town and have it written down. If you simply want to go for an exploratory wander, then you'll have to haggle for a price per 100km or so, which should be much less than the meter rate. If you just use the meter, make sure the driver doesn't push the button on it, but merely pushes down the flag. The button is for one way trips, and in the case of Beijing (the rules vary from town to town) adds 50% to the meter rate after 15km.<BR><BR>Looking at some of the destinations suggested, I don't think the Ming Tombs are worth visiting. I've no idea what the Xiang Tombs are, but I thing these must by the Qing Tombs, which have two groups, eastern and western, and are far more interesting, more rural, less visited, more overgrown, and more charismatic in general. A trip to the Western Qing is easily done down the Jingshi Freeway and then across country to the west. Puyi's remains have now ended up here, there's an empress's tomb with a 'sonic wall', a group of tumuli for one emperor's many concubines, and so on. It's possible (take a map) to take a very rural route back through various tiny villages, cutting across country in the direction of the (dull) Peking Man site, although if you are going this way, the Dabaotai Han tomb is worth visiting. <BR><BR>The best known village trip out of Beijing is Cuan Di Xia (sometimes Chuan Di Xia), a 100km drive almost straight west (or not hard to do by public bus from outside Pingguoyuan metro station). There's an entrance fee at the village gate, so it's not exactly unspoilt, but there's good walking to other villages and an obscure section of Great Wall through that one: accessible, very rural, quite easy.<BR><BR>Zhouzhuang I'd skip--that's extremely busy and very commercial, and there are several other 'Venice's in the vicinity which are less well-known. In this case ask for information when reaching Shanghai.<BR><BR>The best rural travel is away from the major tourist destinations mentioned, however, but involves an element of experiment not compatible perhaps with a 15-day limit. But consider rural Shanxi around Pingyao, the mountains of southern Zhejiang above Wenzhou, southern Fujian, much of Guizhou and Yunnan. Actually, most of China is countryside, and most of it is undiscovered. A random bus trip out of cities is rarely unrewarding.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Maureen Murphy

Hi Gloria,<BR><BR>We just returned from a 22 day trip to China and one thing I would NEVER do is drive in China. It's the most frightening spot on the globe that we ever visited for driving. It's frightening just crossing the streets. Can't tell you how many accidents we witnessed during our visit. Research some tour companies and join one for daily excursions.<BR> <BR>You can take cabs all over but it's best to have a guide taking you around. You'll waste so much time just trying to get from place A to Place B.<BR> <BR>Absolutely...go to china now...it is the most incredible place to visit NOW....it's changing so quickly.<BR> <BR>Enjoy!<BR> <BR>Maureen<BR><BR>**China is magical...I hope you opt for a tour!!!!

kang

<BR><BR>Gloria,<BR><BR>You didn't mention WHEN your Chip trip will start. If you plan to go by the end of the year, you have to add weather factors into your itinerary planning. It could be quite cold in the northern part of the country.<BR>

Gloria

Peter, you wrote:<BR>&quot;A trip to the Western Qing is easily done down the Jingshi Freeway and then across country to the west. Puyi's remains have now ended up here, there's an empress's tomb with a 'sonic wall', a group of tumuli for one emperor's many concubines, and so on. It's possible (take a map) to take a very rural route back through various tiny villages, cutting across country in the direction of the (dull) Peking Man site, although if you are going this way, the Dabaotai Han tomb is worth visiting.&quot; <BR><BR>This is exactly the type of excursion I am looking for as well and especially going the rural route. <BR><BR>When on vacation I really like to find a bit of solitude and a trip to some of the villages sounds like my best bet.<BR><BR>I really prefer to spend a few quiet days on the sea, hence Shanghai, and that area. Anyone have any ideas for this? I would love to see some ports and, hopefully, the old junkets. <BR><BR>Maureen, do you have a trip report? And, yes, Peter put the fear of God into me with his post. We shall not be driving in China. I, too, have always thought of China as magical. I can hardly wait. <BR>Kang, it is likely we shall be there in March or April. Any thought on which may be better. I have read about the dust storms. I remain hopeful about temperatures above 40. <BR><BR>Thank you all for your generosity. As I do like spend time in museums, and parks, and looking at architecture and gardens, do you think allowing 9 days in Beijing is enough? And, the remaining 6 days would be somewhere on the coast if possible, in a quieter spot, assuming I can find it. <BR><BR><BR><BR>

Nancy

Dear Gloria:<BR><BR>I lived in Hong Kong and Singapore for 10 years until last February. In my personal opinion a good first-time China itinerary would be as follows:<BR><BR>Beijing – 5 days<BR>Xian – 3 days<BR>Guilan 3 days<BR>Kunming – 2 days<BR><BR>Beijing you obviously know alot about, but I think 9 days is bit much, as the traffic and pollution will wear on you. Also, you are going a long way and should see other parts of China. Be sure to do a walking or bicycle rickshaw tour of the hutoungs in the old part of the city, as they are going fast and give a glimpse of what Beijing was like in the not so distant past.<BR><BR>Xian, not only for the clay soldiers which are fantastic, but for the old city itself. It is one of the few remaining Chinese cities with its entire city wall intact. There are many charming parts of it, including a mosque and old city area surrounding the mosque where you can find quiet and the &quot;old&quot; china. You can also drive out into the countryside with its really different loess landscape.<BR><BR>Guilan because you mentioned mountains and these are the most famous and beautiful. You can rent bikes and ride along past rice paddies, again tranquil after the rush of Beijing.<BR><BR>Kunming - because if you go to China in April/May there is a world famous flower show there. This city has the world's most perfect climate: sunny and in the 70s virtually all year. It is in the mountains, and a bit off the beaten path for Western tourists, alhtough it is popular with Chinese tourists. It is large city, and a changing city, theare are brand new parts as well as many parts of &quot;old&quot; China here.<BR><BR>Hong Kong - because it is like no other city on earth, and you will want to compare it to what you have just seen. Hong Kong is very much what China will be in the future. You can also go to Aberdeen and see a bit of the past in the form of the Chinese junks.<BR><BR>Shanghai is a fascinating city in its own way (I call it the Jetson city because of the fantastic architecture of the modern skyscraper), but culturally I don't think it has that much to offer. You will look at the Bund and think you are in Europe; but you have already been to Europe. It is a huge bustling city, not really the Shanghai of the 1930's anymore. Due to pollution, I have my doubts about the sea in the surrounding area, and if you are there in April/May it will actually still be fairly cool.<BR><BR>Please see the continuation of this message, below...<BR>

Nancy

To continue...<BR><BR>I have read you initial and subsequent messages and keep seeing your references to peace and quiet and villages. However, the tourist infrastructure outside of the main tourist areas of China is simply not developed at all. This means several things, but mainly means language, roads, food and accommodations. If you are prepared to rough it quite significantly, you can find quiet villages. However, I moved to Zurich in February after 10 years in Asia and cannot stress too emphatically that a village in China is not at all like a village in Europe. A Chinese village is fascinating in terms of street life, chickens in the streets, open-are barbershops, old toothless women, etc. However it will be quite dirty, no one will speak English and in many places not even Mandarin, and you will not find food or accommodations to be anywhere near even a backpacker standard in Europe. If you are prepared for this, then I think you would enjoy a more rural experience, and I wold suggests exploring the Guilan or Kunming areas. Alternately, there are small inns an hour or so outside of Beijing near the Mintayu portion of the Chinese wall that you might find interesting. However, your messages make me think you have expectations that are a bit unrelisitic; especially as you initially considered renting a car. I know expats living in Beijing who are fluent in Mandarin, have lived there for years, and would never consider driving outside of the large cities. There is simply no infrastructure. Chinese trains are again fascinating, but they are nothing like European trains. Distances in China are immense, and trains will eat into a lot of your 15 days.<BR><BR>I do not want to discourage you, as I think China is a fantastic place, I just believe you should have realistic expectations or you will be disappointed.<BR><BR>I hope this is helpful.<BR>