I wasn’t going to click on this post because it is just more of the same and partly the reason I am seriously concsidering no longer contributing to the Fodors Asia forum.

Bob, once you start shouting (by using block capitals) and insulting fellow forum members “this fanatic crazy zeolat" you have lost the argument. Not that you had any chance of "winning" in the first place. This is an open forum, people do not own their threads and cannot dictate what can or cannot be said but we can do it with politeness and respect for others. This is not the White House!

Riding elephants is cruel, forcing them to do tricks is cruel. Any person who allows this is perpetuating the cruel treatment. Wild animal welfare experts are very clear on this. It is wrong.

Can all the happy customers be wrong????? Yes. They can also be naive, uneducated of the facts, selfish or they just don’t care about animal welfare.

Thanks, crellston, for a clear and sober response on this thread. I agree totally with what you've just written and always appreciate your comments on the forum. I would truly hate to see you leave.

I happen to agree with the current White House.... Is that a surprise to you..." of course not.

Don't tell me who I can and who I cannot yell at or call a zealot

signing off for a while, you have denied me free speech.

I’ve been following this too. Crellston is 100% correct.

This forum is supposed to be fun and informative.

No, Bob, no one has denied you free speech! You can write whatever you want - but you can't stop others from responding to what you've written, even if you don't like what they say.

Too bad. Sigh.

It may not be the best thing to ride the elephants and make them do tricks. But these are no longer wild animals and its not like you can just release them from captivity and let them fend for themselves. The question all of you naysayers should be asking is "are the elephants better off in this existence than they were before?". I for one, believe the answer is "yes". If any of you can suggest an alternative, I'm certainly willing to listen.

I am not sure if they can be released back into their natural habitat which is where they belong. It has been done with other animals. However if they can’t be then care for them without the stunts.

The alternatives are sanctuaries, such as the one I linked above, that do not allow the elephants to be ridden nor require them to perform tricks.

I love the people who wear the political correctness brownie badges on their sleeves for everyone to see. If you don't see it at first they will make sure you do believe me.

DEAD!(apologies to those who disdain the use of capital letters). The elephants in this story would all be dead without this care that they are getting. Yes dead as a door nail and we wouldn't be talking about them. Dead, dead ,dead, dust.

No, there aren't enough sanctuaries out there to help the elephants unless of course one or a chain of them are started by our well meaning posters above. Maybe some of us will turn our brownie badges into money to help build these sanctuaries instead of just talking about them or giving a trivial donation....doubt it but maybe? Hope abounds in conflicts they say.

Actually elephants in the wild like a lot longer than those in captivity.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ephants_2.html

The unfortunate thing here is that often you can't disagree with it turning into something ugly like sarcasm, shouting, name calling, even cursing which I've seen here before.

I bet face to face vs. the untouchable www ether it would be much different.

Have a great 2108 everyone.

Good bye for me on this thread.

Meant to say "without"

This thread is a shame. People should be able to express their feelings without being called names. The OP should also be able to receommend an activity he loved while traveling. All others should be able to make up their own minds. Instead folks have gotten political, mean, condescending and nasty — which is not what we come to FODORS for. My family and I rode elephants in Laos. We had an amazing time. When I posted my trip report of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, while I got a lot of positive feedback, many posters kindly informed me why this was not a good thing. I read the responses and links and posted that I would not do so again. I was a traveler who just did not know any better at the time. But when you know better, you can do better. But I had every right to read the information and decide that I would partake in this activity again. We all know that the OP enjoyed the day with elephants and we know that some feel that this wrong and it should not happen. And that is okay. The rest of it is not. And we should really keep politics out of all discussions. In this current hyper-politized climate, we are truly separated by our political beliefs and respect or lack of respect for the current White House and president. But irregardless of that, we are connected through travel and a love of different cultures. We should be able to agree to disagree in a respectful manner. And Crellston — don’t go. Your depth of knowledge on so many different countries is very necessary for this forum and all of the others you frequent. There are a lot of travelers out there who continue to need your input and ideas — me included. Happy New Year all and I wish you a 2018 full of travel and adventure.

Great comments, HT and Lola. JW - there is a difference between elephants released and those that were never in captivity in the first place. Your article only addresses those that were never in captivity. I get that there are sanctuaries and that is a good alternative, if you have a way of transferring those (very) large beasts to one...

Thanks, crellston, and please don't leave this forum! Your experience and thoughtfulness are appreciated by SOOOooooo many.

"DEAD!(apologies to those who disdain the use of capital letters). The elephants in this story would all be dead without this care that they are getting. Yes dead as a door nail and we wouldn't be talking about them. Dead, dead ,dead, dust." -

I can't see how this simplistic dichotomising of a complex issue can be substantiated, yet the activities involved do lead to the death of elephants in the wild and in captivity.
as profits increase for elephant tourism, there is increased demand for new blood - babies are smuggled in from neighbouring countries - to do this there parents or even whole families are destroyed by poachers.
elephants in Thailand are meant to be "in retirement" yet they are frequently overworked up to 10 hours a day....for example in Burma this overworking was illegal in the days of logging.
Carrying people on their backs is also very dangerous for elephants - their spines are not the same geometrically as horses and they can't carry more than 100kg (how much does rhkkmk plus a chair weigh?). doing this for hours on end is torture.

Finally I'm sure everyone by now is aware of "The Crush" used to break both captive and wild young elephants - this alone would make one wonder why anyone would tolerate this kind of treatment of any animal

This topic and Mr rhkkmk’s position on it will always arise some ire in other (better informed or more caring?) Fodor members.

There are about 3000 captive elephants in Thailand and about 800 to 1000 in the rest of Asia., making Thailand the hub of yet another questionable industry.

If you are looking for an elephant “experience” in Changwat Kanchanaburi?, what are the choices and pitfalls - how is the abuse of elephants permitted to go on in Thailand on a scale that dwarves all other countries efforts?

It seems rhkkmk has finally emerged from his city hotels and plumped for a day of entertaining himself with some elephants. At Elephants Home & Nature run or owned by tour guide K. Tong, also a long-term acquaintance of the OP.

She is I believe the apparent owner of Elephants Home and Nature. Tong, who after supporting the tiger temple for nearly 2 decades seems to have found another animal entertainment to replace any income she got from that now defunct and disgraced establishment.
I notice she still adds in a little tiger feeding for those who are credulous enough to think that is OK too.

One has to marvel at the OP’s steadfast resistance to educating himself about the desperate conservation situation surrounding elephants in Thailand...or is it that he just doesn’t care?

On receiving the inevitable criticism, he has declared - “This is the type of negative comment I was hoping to avoid.”, which again makes one wonder as he has already once before drawn rounding condemnation for a similar post with a similar viewpoint a few weeks back. I can’t see why the OP would think the situation would be any different now. Treatment of elephants in Thailand is by-and-large “negative” - it is very hard to come up with something positive about the wholesale exploitation of a mega fauna species by the country’s tourist trade

It is of course not possible for a lay-person to assess any animal attraction by a one day visit. How can you tell? - What can you tell in a day? -

“The average tourist doesn’t have the capacity to identify cruelty to animals because sometimes that cruelty is not overt.” Born Free Foundation.

Although the situation is very complex, there are some very simple initial telltale signs for not supporting some particular elephant entertainment venues such as not taking part in activities such as riding or animals preforming tricks. (this is unnatural behavior and animals have to be trained (by force) to do this.)

This is so well publicized these days that when taking business to a camp advertising such clearly unacceptable practices, one wonders what rock people have been living under all these years.

In this day and age, the abuse of elephants is pretty well catalogued and few countries still engage in the banal circus-like antics of Thailand.

A quick search on Google will reveal the amount of concern that the Thai elephant industry has generated on a worldwide scale - it’s difficult to see how anyone but the most obtuse or unobservant can fail to be concerned about the state of elephants in tourism in Thailand.

Here are some sites - though it has to be said they are only the tip of the iceberg....

Elephant abuse checklist.
https://www.worldanimalprotection.or...eller-sp-f.pdf
“Whether it’s posing for a photograph with a wild animal; visiting shows featuring wild animals; or riding wild animals such as elephants, increasing demand from tourists means these animals continue to suffer and animals continue to be poached from the wild for a lifetime of misery in captivity.

The Human Cost of Elephant Tourism
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...ailand/483138/

Thailand leads the pack for Asia's abused tourist elephants : -
“Twice as many elephants work in Thailand's tourism industry as the rest of Asia combined, with the vast majority kept in "severely inadequate conditions"”
https://phys.org/news/2017-07-thaila...elephants.html

Can elephant tourism be ethical?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/sa...sm-be-ethical/
India considers banning elephant rides”

Elephant tourism is 'fuelling cruelty'
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40501667
Millions of people want selfies riding elephants, or washing them, or patting their trunks. But according to a study carried out by World Animal Protection (WAP) across Asia this is helping to fuel a rise in elephants captured from the wild and kept for entertainment. The number in Thailand has increased by almost a third over the last five years.

It is so easy to start an elephant entertainment business in Thailand too....all you need is a bit of capital and a paddock - the law does nothing -
“The law pertaining to domesticated elephants is the Beast of Burden Act 2482 B.E. (1939).[16] This act classifies elephants as draught animals along with horses, donkeys, and oxen. It allows domesticated elephants to be treated as private property. This act has no additional measures for animal welfare protection.[5] The Wild Animal Reservation and Protection Act, B.E. 2535 (1992)[17] protects wild elephants, but excludes registered draught animals.[2]” - Wiki.

Kanchanaburi is a centre for the conservation of elephants. The region is particularly important as it is part of WEFCOM the Western Forest Complex, which is also important for the conservation of the last remaining Tigers in the region.
I find it hard to understand why someone would not only support an organisation that apparently negatively impacts on this but also recommends it to others

The province being well-known as a centre for those involved in elephant conservation, one can’t help but wonder if the decisions to open elephant entertainment venues in the region aren’t influenced by this in the hope that visitors may be mislead into believing they are in some way themselves contributing to elephant conservation.

Here are some conservation organisations in Changwat Kanchanaburi.

ZSL (Zoological Society of London) - even have offices in Kanchanaburi.
https://www.zsl.org/conservation/reg...on-in-thailand

Contact these people for some expert information on elephant conservation.
The Elephant Conservation network is based in Kanchanaburi too.
http://www.ecn-thailand.org/contact.location.html

OR - Why not try Elephant World instead?
https://www.elephantsworld.org/day-program/

It seems to me that anyone with any concern for the environment, animal welfare or conservation would inform themselves of the issues involved and think very carefully before supporting ANY elephant entertainment enterprise especially in Thailand.

Thank you for proving my point Kuhn. :)

It all comes down to supply and demand. As long as tourists demand elephant "experiences" that include rides and tricks, the camps will provide them. If, instead, tourists vote with their feet (and cash) and visit sanctuaries that do not offer such "experiences" the camps will stop providing them. That is why it is so annoying when someone who knows better (this was all discussed before Bob left) not only supports a camp that offers rides and tricks, but encourages others to visit.

Change is possible. Safaris used to involve shooting animals with guns. These days they mostly involve shooting animals with cameras. Some tour companies are taking elephant rides out of their itineraries. Please, if you are going to visit elephants in Thailand, visit one of the sanctuaries.

Here are some options:
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thailan...ts-in-thailand