16 Nights in Japan
 

Planning our mid-November trip has been challenging. I've done a lot of reading and am trying to narrow down our 16-night itinerary. Here is where I am:

5 nights in Tokyo

2 nights in Takayama OR Kanazawa (find a way to stop and see Shirakawago)

2 nights in Osaka (day trip to Nara)

4 nights in Kyoto

1 night in Koyasan

2 nights in Tokyo

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Koyasan (and staying in a temple, specifically) seems like this can't-miss experience and Japan-Guide.com seems to recommend it. Does everyone agree with including it? Nikko and Kamakura seem like interesting places. Is the night better spent there? Or should we not choose between Takayama and Kanazawa and just see them both in 3 nights instead of one of them in 2 nights? What about Mount Fuji ... should we specifically incorporate it into our trip somehow?

We plan to do all our travelling by train/bus. Is this doable? Should we shift any locations earlier or later to make travelling easier? Would the JR pass work for us?

Thank you in advance for all your help!

Unless you are interested in ultra-urban culture, I worry that 7 nights in Tokyo is too many, even with day trips to Nikko and Kamakura. I would combine all the nights in Tokyo in one go rather than split it up like the way you have it. Think about flying into one city and out another.

Most visit Nara as a day trip from Kyoto, not Osaka. Kyoto is a city in which you could easily add a couple of nights, especially if you enjoy temples, gardens, and traditional Japanese culture.

Seeing Mount Fuji is weather dependent. You could visit the Hakone area, where the open air museum is very much worth a visit.

It is very easy to get around Japan by train. I would not do it any other way.

Happy planning.

If you haven’t already booked your flights, I would encourage you to fly “open jaw” – into one city and out of another (probably Tokyo and Osaka). The cost of backtracking rarely matches any difference in price, and your time is, as they say, priceless.

If you MUST fly into and out of Tokyo, then I agree with tripplanner001: Explore options for moving on to your “next” destination ASAP after arrival – you might be tired, but if so, you’ll be tired under any scenario. Moving on, if it works, will let you cut out one change of hotels. Pushing on doesn't work for everyone traveling to Japan, but it is something to consider.

Some thoughts:

7 nights in Tokyo is a LOT for a first visit to Japan. For comparison, I gave it 4 nights, and that time included a long day trip. It really depends on YOUR interests.

2 nghts in either Takayama or Kanazawa is, IMO, a night too little. Again, it depends on your interests. Given how little time you have for the area, if a major goal is to see Shirakawago, then you might consider visiting the outdoor museum in Takayama, Hida no Sato, instead.
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5901.html

As tripplanner also noted, you can visit Nara from Kyoto. And you might consider staying in Nara rather than Osaka. IME, Nara had more than enough to keep me happily busy for more than 48 hours.

I thought 6 nights for Kyoto / Nara barely sufficient for an introduction to these magnificent centers of traditional Japan. YMMV.

I found a stay in Koyasan (at Shojoshin-in) a highlight of a highlight-filled trip. Not everyone is enamored of the experience. If you do go, pick your temple carefuly, make sure you plan on time to vist Okuno-in at dusk or dawn or both, and try to see a few of Koya-san’s other treasures while there. Also, expect a LONG trip to and fro, generally with multiple changes of transport. I thought the scenery spectacular and was glad to see it, and I took advantage of Japan’s luggage-forwarding service so that I had only an overnight bag for the trip. Here's a recent thread about our differing experiences:
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...to-koyasan.cfm

(Japan’s excellent luggage-forwarding service is called takuhaibin; here's the info:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2278.html

Most people visit Nikko as a day trip from Tokyo. I spent overnight there, as I also wanted to visit Kegon-no-Taki and a bit of Lake Chuzenji and walk a bit of the Kanmangafuchi Abyss. I think it would be difficult to see the highlights of Nikko AND see these other sites in a single day-trip. Whether you visit as a day trip or not, if you have any interest in Japanese screens and sliding doors, consider making time for the stunning collection at the Nikko Toshogu Museum of Art.

Most people visit Kamakura as a day trip from Tokyo, and doing so worked for me.

Japan’s public transportation system is outstanding. There’s no need to consider anything else for the places you have targeted.

Hope that helps!

Two nights in a place only gets you one full day, definitely not enough for Kanazawa. Even though Japanese trains can be fast, you still have to allow time to get from A to B. A good place to figure that out is hyperdia.com.

I agree that you seem to be over emphasizing Tokyo, which was my least favorite stop in Japan, and I wouldn't bother sleeping in Osaka on a short trip.

I spent three nights in Nara on my most recent trip, and didn't run out of sights, but it is certainly an easy day trip from Kyoto.

I should clarify why there seems to be a lot of time devoted to Tokyo. We land there late on day 1. We then will be going to Disneyland for a big chunk of a day as well. On the back-end, we are leaving early on day 17. When its all said and done, this leaves 4 full days to tour.

If you are flying out of Narita, rather than two nights in Tokyo I would (and did) spend one night in Narita town, one stop from the airport. The castle and grounds are worth seeing, or you could just arrive late afternoon.

More Kyoto.

Osaka is a smaller version of Tokyo. There are some nice sights and interesting areas, but they're all of 25 minutes from Kyoto by train (shinkansen to Shin-Osaka, local JR train to Osaka station or near the area you want to visit). You do NOT have to spend two nights there and based on your itinerary probably shouldn't. Daytripping to Nara from Kyoto is easy.

Kyoto is a big city (population = Philadelphia). It's also home to various temples, gardens, parks and districts (Gion, Arashiyama) that visitors associate with an older Japan. Thus, it's a big city that feels small. Osaka is just a big city.

Go to Nikko. Use the Tobu package (http://www.tobu.co.jp/foreign/en/).

>>shinkansen to Shin-Osaka, local JR train to Osaka station ...

That would not be my route even with a JR Pass. No point in changing trains when there is special rapid service between JR Kyoto and Osaka station. With a JR Pass, I'd want the JR limited express. All three options take the same time, give or take a minute or two. And there are non-JR options. There might be some destinations where using Shin Osaka station might be better, but most others would be via Osaka station.

>>2 nights in Takayama OR Kanazawa (find a way to stop and see Shirakawago)

You won't find a reasonable (imo) way to do that. You need to add a night and stay in one of the two cities, but not both. If you want to visit both cities and see S-go then add two nights.

>>Does everyone agree with including it?
For you, yes, because you have read about it and believe it is a can't-miss. I've given it a miss so far, though, mainly because I am not interested in staying the night there and there were better options (for me) for day trips from Osaka and Kyoto.

You really need to look into your nights in Osaka and what interests you there. That is, a day trip to Nara is not enough of a reason to stay in Osaka. You might be better off spending one or both of those nights in Nara. Or day-tripping for Kyoto.

So, my question for you is: why Osaka?

<<That would not be my route even with a JR Pass. No point in changing trains when there is special rapid service between JR Kyoto and Osaka station>>

The rapid service is not that rapid. A limited express that stops at Shin-Osaka and Osaka is best because it's the most convenient, but the way I wrote it out is easiest for someone not familiar with the travel - basically trains going south from Shin-Osaka will go to Osaka and the shinkansen takes 15 minutes Kyoto to Shin-Osaka, not 25-30 like any other option. Plus, shinkansens don't change from limited express/rapid to local (which happened to us once).

The total travel times are 27-29 minutes on the three options. Best is to not change trains. The shinkansen option does require a change to a local to get to Osaka. The l'ex and SRS do not. The rapid train is far less expensive.

For example: http://tinyurl.com/k7lr7a3

An odd thing about that query is that if I uncheck Nozomi then the option with the Hikari train does not appear.

LucMir, you probably could use a JR Pass, but it depends on your route and day trips. For example, Tokyo- Takayama- Kanazawa- Osaka/Nara- Kyoto over 6 nights is about 33,000 which is more than a 7-day pass. You might be able to use a 14-day pass.

>>Should we shift any locations earlier or later to make travelling easier?

Yes, you sh/could change your current itinerary by moving Kyoto to be the last stop before heading back to Tokyo. Koyasan to Tokyo goes via both Osaka and Kyoto.

>>So, my question for you is: why Osaka?

I have read that it has a lot to offer from a food/dining perspective. I also feel like covering Nara from Osaka allows me to devote all my time in Kyoto to Kyoto.

I suppose another option would be to add a night to Takayama/Kanazawa and actually stay the night in Nara and avoid Osaka all together.

What is the best way to take in Mt. Fuji? Is it worth staying a night somewhere in its vicinity?

>>I suppose another option would be to add a night to Takayama/Kanazawa and actually stay the night in Nara and avoid Osaka all together.
.
Yes, staying in Nara is a good option. From there, then, to Koyasan and then Kyoto.

Yes, it is worth a night or two. You have two options: Hakone or Fuji Five Lakes (Fujigoko). Look into the Hakone Free Pass and you will learn about the Hakone loop. Or just go to japan-guide.

Was thinking about how a "Fuji" visit might depend on the weather when I realized that I don't know when your trip is. I don't think you told us. Weather and season would be a factor elsewhere.

Our trip will be in November.

Fuji Five Lakes looks beautiful but seems like a long trek to get to any of our next destinations.

That's true, which is why Hakone is on a typical itinerary and the other is not.

The way that I just finished setting up my upcoming trip to Japan is to land into Narita, as that's where my flight lands, and then on the same day fly onto Osaka (Itami Airport). I've purchased a one-way ticket on ANA from Narita to Osaka-Itami. The flight is less than an hour and a half. I'm one who prefers to fly on to the farthest place first if I'm already in an airport.

When I get to Itami, I'll take the MK Taxi (shuttle) service to Kyoto, about an hour. I already contacted them and received an answer within 2 days that a rep will meet me with a sign with my name on it and escort me to the shuttle. When I get to Kyoto, it will be around 8:45PM and I can just check into my hotel, go to sleep, and then wake up the next morning refreshed and already in Kyoto.

http://www.mktaxi-japan.com/taxi

I then have 9 nights in Kyoto and after Kyoto will fly back to Tokyo on ANA, but will fly into Haneda Airport which is much closer to Tokyo city than Narita. I have put all of my Tokyo nights (5 of them) at the END of my trip as I have no desire to have to transit more than I need to and then also pay transportation fees twice from and two Narita.

I really wasn't interested in going to Tokyo, but since Singapore Air e-mailed me to announce throwing a big, airfare sale and my airfare ended up half the regular price and lands in Narita, I thought that I would just go on and add Tokyo to the mix. If Tokyo becomes too much, I can always just lounge at my hotel and do spa treatments and relaxation.

Happy Travels!

Correction: "too", not "two". Let me wake up. LOL!

Happy Travels!

@Guenmai - there are good day trips from Tokyo, unless you've already done them?

thursdaysd: It will be my first time visiting Japan. I have only been in transit in Narita more times than I can remember. I'm going to be playing a lot of this Japan trip by ear as I have no desire to be running around like a chicken with my head cut off as I will have just gotten home from my European vacation three weeks prior to leaving for Japan.

Happy Travels!

Even though there are many (not all) here, myself included, who have expressed preference for Kyoto over Tokyo, there is still plenty to see and do in Tokyo for several days, especially when including day trips.

We enjoyed visiting Kamakura on our last trip, you also have Nikko (which also works well as an overnight, but many do it as a day trip happily).

Btw, if you are really into cooking, you may enjoy half a day browsing in Kappabashi Dori, though if you aren't a kitchenware geek, may want to skip it.

In terms of the questions about Osaka, I feel there is less to see and do there though it does depend on your interests. I enjoyed the cup noodle museum when I first went (though there's another larger one in Yokahama, near Tokyo). A friend says the aquarium is good. I thought the small food market there very enjoyable to browse, far less crowded than Nishiki though Nishiki is incredible. I didn't rate the knife museum in Sakai but there was a pleasant temple on the way out to it. I would say that yes there are some great Osaka foods to try but you could easily do an afternoon and evening visit from Kyoto rather than overnight, that's what I would recommend anyway.

Takayama, you can do two nights there if you give a good part of arrival day and departure day to it too, but I wouldn't try and also cram in S-Go into the same two day visit. For Kanazawa, it depends on what you want to see - we did 4 nights but could have managed happily with 3. We loved the famous gardens, not so much the reconstructed castle. Adored the food market there, not so much the tea districts which we felt were small and less charming in comparison with Kyoto and Takayama's historic districts. The samurai district was interesting to us. We didn't bother with the modern art museum other than briefly enjoying some of the outdoor pieces. So it all depends on what you want to see.

>>Planning our mid-November trip ...

Oh! That is a great time to go to Japan and good for all your stops,

Kanazawa should be warmer but wetter than Takayama. Kanazawa temps 10-12F higher, precip 10" vs 2".

Takayama will be on its way to winter with near freezing overnight temps.

Kanazawa might still have some fall color. Also, Kanazawa has a practice called yukizuri where they tie up tree branches to protect them from snow. It was cool/charming to see. It is a symbol of Kanazawa (my Starbucks cup has images of the four seasons in Kanazawa and the autumn one features leaves and yukizuri trees)

I would (and did) choose Kanazawa over Takayama at that time. It didn't rain.

Here is info about yukizuri:
http://www.kanazawa-tourism.com/eng/event/event3.php

and here, along with a nice fall colors photo in Kenrokuen
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4200.html

... and it would be easy to visit Shirakawago from Kanazawa. Shirakwago might be less photogenic then than at other times of the year (my guess is that it would be too early for snow).

>>Takayama will be on its way to winter with near freezing overnight temps

I meant to add "but less chance of rain" to that. The weather numbers I gave above are monthly averages from weatherbase.

November is a wonderful month to visit Japan - not just climate-wise but for observance of Shichi Go San when girls aged 7 and 3 and boys aged 5 are taken to the shrines in traditional dress. Mothers and grandmothers usually wear kimono as well. Not so great though for momiji (maple viewing) crowds.

I am one of the few here who prefers Tokyo over Kyoto, but then I have a strong aversion to crowds. I spent five days in Kyoto at end-March this year and couldn't believe the people jams midweek in Arashiyama. The Bamboo Path was a nightmare. To be fair, I suspect the crowds were in hopes of hanami which was late this year.

To categorise Tokyo as simply 'ultra urban culture' is to misunderstand the many levels of this city. The secret is not to be intimidated by the sprawling metropolis but to approach it at neighbourhood level where one finds the 'traditional' (though never sure what is meant by that). And because it is so big and offers so much - it is easy to beat the crowds, a trick I have not yet discovered in Kyoto.

Tokyo vs Kyoto as modern vs traditional is a false dichotomy. Take the Asukura Choso Museum in Tokyo: behind the modern exterior is one of the most beautiful traditional Japanese residences. And because it is so quiet, you can actually sit awhile,looking out at the amazing inner courtyard water garden, smelling the fresh tatami (and not the feet of fellow visitors). .

Osaka as foodie destination is overhyped in my opinion but then okonomiyaki is one of the few Japanese meals I am not crazy about.
If you are foodies - might be worth looking into booking at one of the one-starred Michelin soba, tonkatsu or yakitori places in Tokyo - not expensive. Do that two months in advance if possible.

"To categorise Tokyo as simply 'ultra urban culture' is to misunderstand the many levels of this city. The secret is not to be intimidated by the sprawling metropolis but to approach it at neighbourhood level where one finds the 'traditional' (though never sure what is meant by that). And because it is so big and offers so much - it is easy to beat the crowds, a trick I have not yet discovered in Kyoto.

Tokyo vs Kyoto as modern vs traditional is a false dichotomy. Take the Asukura Choso Museum in Tokyo: behind the modern exterior is one of the most beautiful traditional Japanese residences. And because it is so quiet, you can actually sit awhile,looking out at the amazing inner courtyard water garden, smelling the fresh tatami (and not the feet of fellow visitors)."

Boveney, I would love to pick your brains further on the other facets of Tokyo before my next trip.

I think when people summarise Tokyo as modern, Kyoto as traditional, they are not suggesting that either city only offers that one aspect, only that it's much easier to find those aspects of Japan in the cities, respectively. But of course, Kyoto has much of modern Japan and Tokyo has traditional to offer too.

I would like to explore more of neighbourhood Tokyo next time, rather than the usual suspects when it comes to districts, though they suited me fine for my first 3 trips. Will definitely remember ask for your input!

just for the sake of this interesting discussion ...

>>Tokyo vs Kyoto as modern vs traditional is a false dichotomy.

You say that yet you are "never sure what is meant by" traditional. It is not a dichotomy, really, it is a matter of balance, as Kavey suggested.

Traditional Japan can be found everywhere in Japan, both modern traditions and ancient ones. Halloween, Christmas, sake brewing, gassho zukuri.

I think that "traditional Japan" is often used as shorthand for cultural heritage as defined this way

Tangible Cultural Heritage. ... Cultural heritage is the legacy of physical artefacts and intangible attributes of a group or society that are inherited from past generations, maintained in the present and bestowed for the benefit of future generations.

Kyoto really is the heart of the Japanese cultural heritage. Takayama and Kanazawa both have cultural heritage sites, but it is interesting that both (like other places in Japan) are referred to as "little Kyoto".

Kyoto is a modern city, so are Osaka and Fukuoka, but if you want to get to the heart of ultra-modern Japan you go to Tokyo.

See, I think if you want to get to the heart of Japan (modern and traditional both, the whole package), you can't shortchange Tokyo (which posters here often advise) . I suspect 'traditional' is often used in discussions here as a shorthand for 'old' - which is something the Japanese themselves don't put all that much stock by. Just have to pick up on your mention of Halloween as a 'new tradition' - ouch. This is one that hurts. When we lived here thirty years ago the autumn cards that were exchanged bore the seven seasonal flower motifs. We moved back four years ago to find they are now all of jack o lanterns, witches and cats! But that aside, in Tokyo one finds the ancient traditions flourishing in modern interpretations (art, design, food, architecture etc) - I'd argue that is the real value of 'cultural heritage'.

What day in November is day 1? You don't want to miss shichi-go-san at Meiji Jingu. The day is the 15th. The Sundays before and after would be good.

I've enjoyed it twice on Sundays when the 15th was a weekday (like this year). In addition to the children, there were Shinto wedding parties (I believe they enjoyed the attention they got from others).

Although technically Shichi Go San is 15 November, it doesn't matter - it happens throughout November though obviously weekends will be most popular.

Thank you everyone for all of your input. I have taken your feedback and reconfigured the itinerary:

5 nights in Tokyo

2 nights in Takayama (possibly visit Shirakawago?)

1 night in Koyasan

5 nights in Kyoto (day trip to Nara)

1 night in Hakone

2 nights in Tokyo

There is a pretty clear issue with getting from Takayama to Koyasan that I need to figure out. Should I just not do Koyasan and stay a night in Nara instead?

I feel like Hakone can be our opportunity to try the onsen and also, if lucky, get a great glance at Mt. Fuji.

How many Ryokan would you suggest we try? Maybe 1 or 2? If so, where are the best destinations to do so?

Thank you!!

That Takayama - Koyasan leg is a no-go for me.

A few options in no particular order:

-- Add a night to Takayama. With just two nights you would not have enough time for S-go, but you could visit Hida No Sato. With three nights you could visit S-go and have more time for Takayama.

There is an onsen at the Green Hotel in Takayama that is open to the public (am not recommending the Green as a place to stay).

With 3 nights, you could split your stay in Takayama to 2 nights hotel (Best Western) and 1 night in a ryokan. I stayed at Sumiyoshi Ryokan and thought it was ok, others loved it.

-- Split your stay in Kyoto. Go Takayama to Kyoto for 2 or 3 nights then an overnight trip to Koyasan and back to Kyoto. Nara could be part of that side-trip, either as another overnight stay or on the way back from Koyasan to Kyoto.

I haven't commented on the length of your Tokyo stay. You had four full days with daytrips to Kamakura & Nikko leaving two days for Tokyo itself. And it turned out you had a Disney plan for that last full day. So I could see how that would work out.

But now is the time to figure out your Tokyo time especially if you want to keep Koyasan. You could cut Nikko or Kamakura or both.

Kamakura, for example, sounds like it is a "seems interesting" stop. Other people have a definite interest and plan for visiting there. After looking into it more, I just decided to swing by Kamakura to visit the Daibutsu (nice with the late fall colors) on the way from Hakone to Tokyo. I still haven't been to Nikko.

oh, and Hakone would be a good place to find an onsen ryokan. You could move that stop to earlier, of course.

I would not travel Koyasan to Hakone for a 1-night stay. But, Koyasan to Tokyo is a bit easier and quicker (because of the greater availability of the faster shinkansen that don't stop at Odawara). I might bite that bullet given that the destination would be a 2-night stay. Might not.

6 nights in Tokyo
2 nights in Takayama (possibly visit Shirakawago?)
2 nights in Osaka (day trip to Nara)
1 night in Koyasan
4 nights in Kyoto
1 night in Hakone

Seems like the trip to Haneda Airport from Hakone is not that bad at all so I've re-arranged a few things and I think I finally have it down! Thank you for your feedback! The next thing I need to figure out is if getting a JR Pass is worth it for us or not. Any advice based on this final itinerary?

That works. It's a good travel plan.

A 7-day pass won't work for you. A 14-day pass would depend on what day trips you would take from Tokyo or Kyoto, but it would have to be a lot.

Ok, a 7-day pass, just maybe. Like one the day after your first night in Kyoto you took a day trip to Hiroshima.

If you're in the tokyo area for 5 days i would make a day trip to either areas near mount fuji like Churreito. And then i would also make a day trip to Kamakura as it is absolutely beautiful!