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Gardyloo
I'm not trying to be confrontional, I'm simply responding to statements that I think are misleading. <<The US airlines' business models are all about their domestic markets, whilst the European (and most Asian) carriers have to focus on international and longhaul markets. Domestic competition is intense in the US. How intense is it on LHR-EDI? >> How's that different to BA or LH flying around europe, I simply don't understand how you relate BA or LH simply to the UK or German domestic markets, its a ridiculous argument. So LHR to AMS is international and therefore completely different from BOS to JFK EDI - LON There are plenty of options e.g direct flights with BA, BMI, easyjet, or Scot Airways <<However, I wonder what Geordie's suggestion is to the US airline executives?>> I've already mentioned what the problems are, which was largely their own doing, but you can also add old & inefficient aircraft to the list. So, here's some free advice, why not operate only the routes where you make money! Geordie |
The jetBlue schedule has 4 nonstops daily from LGB to IAD, 1 of which is a redeye. United has 9 nonstops, 2 of of which are redeyes. AA has 3 nonstops tomorrow on that route, 1 of which is a redeye. I think you would find similar results for other transcons.
For that redeye flight on jetBlue they have an amenity kit, not sure if it is complimentary or not. I believe it is complimentary. They also have a hot towel service. Here is a description of the kit: Bliss Spa has joined forces with JetBlue to bring some ‘aaahhh’ into the air. Sample some sky-high ‘spa-ing’ with the new Shut-Eye KitTM, to help fly-by-night types arrive from the West at their best. Includes: lemon+sage body butter, mint lip balm, ear plugs, and eye shades. |
I go six hours withoug eating or drinking almost everyday. Then I break that fast with breakfast. I bet most of you do too.
So what is it about a 4 or 6 hour flight that demands a meal to be served. Have breakfast when you land. BTW, I also usually only consume coffee between morning breakfast & dinner on weekdays. I'm alive, and even healthy. Those airlines seats might not seem so cramped were we all to cut back on our chow a little. |
<i>So, here's some free advice, why not operate only the routes where you make money!</i>
The major airlines in the US operate hub and spoke systems. [This include Jetblue too.] All routes are therefore linked, and it's not easy to operate just routes that make money. For example, international routes are making money for all the majors now, but the domestic flights are needed to feed those longhauls. When say Delta or Northwest was bleeding money until this quarter, it's basically their whole system losing money. But I'd agree that perhaps both of them should just damn <b>close their doors</b>. The other airlines will do better, but then you'll be paying more. The matter of fact is that it's a <b>good thing</b> all US airlines are losing money all the time. This means somebody else is subsidizing for our travel. And I've made this argument many times. If one wants better service, food, etc on their flights, fly first class. |
<i>How's that different to BA or LH flying around Europe?</i>
The difference is in scale and route architecture. All the legacy/flag carriers in Europe operate out of one or at most two (typically, fortress) hubs. Most pax traveling internationally at these hubs are O/D traffic, arriving by land, not air, so the carriers don't need to invest in flying machines, ground crews, station managers, bag handlers, etc. at anything like the scale of N. American operators who have many non-hub airport ops and O/Ds. Costs money. So rather than lose profitability on those non-hub ops, the airlines reduce costs to the breakeven point. Those that don't (for example DL or NW on many of their feeder routes) find themselves in bankruptcy. (And Southwest and B6 sure won't enter those markets - nowhere near the volume.) LON-AMS is a shorthaul route where pax have several choices - EZY from Gatwick or Luton or Stansted, BMI or BA or KL from LHR… As a result, BA's fare price per mile for LHR-AMS is only slightly higher than BOS-NYC on American carriers (around 2p per mile higher, so for 400 miles return, around 8 quid, i.e. the value of a biscuit and tea, sandwich and beer.) And of course people living near Waterloo or Ashford don't have to go to the airport at all. But now let's have a look at LHR-DME. 1580 miles, BA price for 72hr return trip in late September, cheapest available, £789 (yes, "Euro Traveler," with generous food/bev service and 31" pitch.) Alternatives? Well, there's Aeroflot. And… ? (Oh sure you can connect in Zurich and save some. But business travelers generally don't want to add another 5 hours each way.) Same days, LAX-ORD: 1745 miles, AS, AA, UA nonstops, $280. To help with the math, that's 25p per mile on the BA trip, 4.4p per mile on the US carriers. Want to know how BA can add booze in coach? That's how. Now I am not equating London to Moscow with LA to Chicago, except to point out that cost/revenue formulae are highly dependent on competition and volume. As to equipment age, you really had better look at fleet profiles among the major US and European carriers. You might be surprised. Mind, I am not defending US airline managers across the board. In systems as complex and vast as these, there are plenty of opportunities for screwups, and it seems like many of the managing geniuses have had excellent luck in finding them. But I'll just close with one word. Alitalia. |
I'll finish this by saying the following:
The costs of extra aircraft, staff etc should all be built into the business case, if it doesn't add up you don't proceed. The argument regarding competition on a route is correct, that why I said low cost carriers are keeping the regular airlines honest, incidently MUC-DME is 168 Euro. Easyjet, Ryanair, Lufthansa have a number of hubs and if a hub is unprofitable then they should close it down. I think US Airways are doing this in Pittsburgh and BA are looking at this at Gatwick. Your also right about the alternatives of getting to AMS, even more competition for the airlines, with the Eurostar, but also the TGV or ICE within France or Germany. All the equations regarding miles flown are very impressive but I think you missed a major point that you could have used for your argument and that is the major cost at the moment is fuel and what currency do you hedge your fuel in, yes dollars. The majority of European revenues are in GBP or Euros and as the dollar is very weak, it doesn't hurt so much. So while the US network is vast and complicated, it is only the airlines doing, and at the same time its not rocket science. But I'll just close with one word, Northwest Geordie |
I checked: the amenity kit on jetBlue is complimentary. I don't much care if they lost money in 4Q 2005 or if their stock price is where their investors hoped. What I do care about is keeping crefloors from becoming a felon and the excellent product that jetBlue provides can do that.
I can buy a 3-day return ticket LHR-DME on BA nonstops for the end of Sept. for $434 on travelocity or $339 on Swiss. On a different three days during that time period I could pay $1400+ on BA or $339 on Swiss. If I chose LHR-SVO then I would have a choice of several airlines with connecting service at good prices ($355 to $500). Actually, the same results for next week, Aug 8-10. For LON-MOW, the best price is Swiss at $339. The BA nonstop is $1477. The connecting flight on Swiss would take 2 hours longer than the nonstop. With that big of a price difference most corporate travelers are going to be going thru ZRH. Meanwhile, Aug 8-10 ORD-LAX is $496 on AA and UA. Or you could save $97 and take Southwest nonstops MDW-LAX. I'm not going to do the revenue per mile math on those numbers. I just realized that the prices I listed above include taxes and fees. But it doesn't seem to be a good idea to choose specific examples in order to try to prove the general case. And those are prices, not revenue. I think the stats that would be more interesting would be revenue/cost ratios. Or (revenue-cost) per mile. Actually would be best to see rev/mile and cost/mile. |
rb_* you made a couple of good points but cutting back on the chow is not going to make my legs any shorter or my shoulders narrower! People complained about airline food when it was there and now complain that it is gone. An airplane is not a bar, but jetBlue does claim to have a "low-fare sommelier".
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I think I finally found the right thread to ask my question. Could anyone please tell me if Lufthansa Airlines provide complimentary beer/wine on their International flights? Also, do they have "in the seat" video screens - particularly on their Boeing 747, LAX - Frankfurt?
Thank you. |
OldeBrit -
Yes and No. |
rkkwan
Thank you Jolly good and Oh dear! |
All of Southwest's flights are rather short. However, charging customers $5 for a beer on an International flight when many of the customers are from a foreign country and may not have Dollars with them--and then charging them 5 Euros when the dollar is 25% lower than the Euro is just turning people off. On a 6 hour + flight, the airlines should do everything they can do to provide a decent meal that people will eat.
Upsetting the customers on these long flights means the airlines will need to lower their prices even more from the competition to win them back, and when the major cost in flying is jetfuel, it just doesn't make any sense. |
Some of the pressure will mean that the companies now organizing to provide short- and medium-haul air taxis ("private" jets seating up to 6 or 8) will become very popular among business travelers.
As for: "So, here's some free advice, why not operate only the routes where you make money!" OK, how do you propose serving all those other areas and cities? Right now, it costs far less to go coast-to-coast than it does to go from Dubuque to Raleigh. Are you actually saying "why not make money on the routes you operate"? For myself re: <i> bring back the trains !!! </i> -- esp. for distances under approx. 700-1000 miles. People on the East Coast already know that it can often take longer door-to-door to get to an airport, get through security and check-in, deal with delays,wait for baggage, and get a taxi downtown than it does to take a train, which can offer amenities the airlines can't AND which have wide seats! The campaign to withdraw support of and dismantle rail travel in the US is scandalous. Can you imagine populations depending entirely on air travel in Europe? |
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