duckduck

For those who missed yesterday's exchange regarding Namibia, now sadly deleted,

THERE IS A MORATORIUM ON HUNTING OF CHEETAH AND LEOPARD IN NAMIBIA.

It started last year and has been extended for 2010.

Elizabeth_S

I reported your post as inappropriate when you admitted you had deliberately baited SV - if you want to have a debate, fine, but don't be duplicitous.

duckduck

Can I take it that you prefer this forum to contain totally misleading and malicious information rather than the truth?

safarimama

I missed this thread yesterday. What is the truth?

spassvogel

safarimama
It's of course your liberty to believe in one information or the other.

You must have figured out that i am totally against trophy hunting (let alone canned hunting; Namibia it's mostly canned as the cats are baited on private land and the enclosures are rather like cans) and based on that I have done random requests to Namibian "guest farms" and outfitters asking for cheetah hunting respectively big cat hunting.

There hasn't been one single venue refused to get me also a cheetah to be shot. The contrary is the case. Moreover I got advise to put away at least one week for a cheetah hunt as the cheetah cannot be baited and must be tracked for long or shot at the playtree. No restriction into 2010 whatsoever!

Any farmer who has got a cheetah on his/her ground can shot it! If the cheetah is nursing the babies die or are at the mercy of the farmer and hopefully he/she calls CCF or Africat to collect the cubs !
I could do cheetahs for as little as 1200€!

The "guest farms" advise "if they don't have a cheetah on their very own ground" they can connect to a "colleague" who has got one.

Just google Namibia hunting and you find loads of these folks who take the cats as a pretty effortless income in order to safe their butts real work!

SV

PS
duckduck opened a thread a couple of days ago to "bait" me in order to post (the truth) which he/she then used to spread the word of cheetah moratorium - which of course is nothing but a solid lie!

spassvogel

As I don't check posters before I respond it didn't come to my mind to do it with duckduck.

I did it now and come to the conclusion that there might be a good reason behind the thread ;-)
Maybe lurking made him/her to "correct" some information in order to serve his/her purpose?

SV

safarimama

I'm against hunting too. Thanks for this information, much appreciated. We celebrated my husband's birthday last December in Namibia and visited Africat. They do a great job of saving and returning "problem" (to whom?) cheetahs back into the wild. Only 10% cannot be released back and those are the cheetahs visitors will see. Is the moratorium on cheetahs in the wild only? Where do the guestfarms get their cheetahs and leopards from?

spassvogel

As 90% of Namibia surface is private land/farms and the World's largest cheetah population lives in Namibia you can imagine these cats are mostly on private land (mostly farmers!).
To those farmers these cats are nothing but annoying and therefore they try to get rid of them as quickly as possible as the cats mean a tread to their life stock, well goats etc.
Some farmers have figured out to go into hunting to make a quick buck. Many of them host hunting safaris as well as photographic safaris - it's really tough to find a guest farm in Namibia which doesn't conduct hunting. This is when the TA/TO comes into the picture to make sure his/her clients don't end up in such a farm. Or travellers must ask when booking. But as they want to get ALL business they do not all declare openly they are involved in trophy hunting.
Therefore better to work with a local TA/TO ans ask seriously those questions if you are against hunting.

For example ONGUMA - a fantastic lodge. But as I found out by asking a very well known Namibia travel agent who knows I am very serious yout that topic, it's also hunting concession.

Namibia is really special in that regard.

It takes quite an effort to get to the basics.

I have visited Africat a long time ago. What I don't like:
Since Carla Conradi (agrees on cheetahs having a price tage) has taken over from Lise Hansen the attitude has changed remarkably. It's becoming more a business.

SV

safarimama

WOW!! I had no idea that Africat allows HUNTING!!!! Say it isn't so. Or what do you mean by "cheetahs having a price tag"?

tactile

Africat does not 'allow' hunting.
As for becoming a business, well, what the heck do you expect?!
Every entreprise these days. to stay in business, needs to operate along business lines, otherwise you go bust, and everyone is affected.
"Cheetah's having a price tag''...
The whole conservation of wild life in Africa, even the rest of the world, is moving towards every animal having a value.
The pressure of human population growth, needing room to live, to grow food, to even exist, means wild areas are being encroached upon,which means wildlife territories will be dwindling.And that could mean extinction for many.
So the question this generation needs to address is this-"What value do we place upon wild life, to ensure it's survival?"
Example-elephants.Despite banning ivory in the late 70's, numbers have halved from over a million.
Lions-despite conservation attempts numbers have plummeted from over 100,000 to around 25,000 since the 80's.
Wild Dogs,cheetahs,leopard, etc etc ,...you name it.
All population figures dropping despite conservation efforts.
So are current conservation efforts the way of the future?
That is another question we must answer.

I am reminded by a quote from someone on this forum-"No domesticated animal has died out."
Now he's correct.But in the meantime, many other wild species have died out.So why?
Because they have no economical value perhaps?

surkamp

Let's have a vote who believes this sad German's propoganda or who believes the edict of the Namibian Wildlife Department. This sort of blatant propoganda from a person who is so biased and obviously ill informed should not be allowed the air of publicity on this sort of forum.

DuckDuck is entirely correct, as for asserting that Africat allows hunting, I will bite my tongue.

spassvogel

No - of course AFRICAT DOES NOT ALLOW HUNTING! Please read carefully before you jump to conclusions!

Carla Conradie, successor of Lisa Hansen, stated she agrees to Cheetahs having a pricetag as that leads farmers to "safe" them!

I have not with a single word said Africa does allow hunting!

SV

spassvogel

Remains the same for 2010:

http://www.ovitahunting.com/e_rates.htm
http://www.namibianhuntingsafaris.co...s_game_hunting
http://www.ausafari.com/African-Hunt...-and-Fees.aspx
http://natron.net/jagd.htm EKONGO: Leopard 2010 3000US$

Just do your research properly and you will see how surkamp and duckduck try to sell their thoughts for whatever reason!

SV

spassvogel

I wasted some time in order to find ANY quality post by the either of the two insight-posters DUCKDUCK and SURKAMP.

FAILURE!

It seems they both are trying to fulfill some kind of job here - but certainly not in order to provide some quality to this forum.

SV

surkamp

If you ever post anything other than your ill informed nonsense then I like everybody else will be extremely surprised!

LyndaS

SV, I try to read most of the posts of this forum, as anything to do with wildlife & Africa interests me. I like to stay informed, and I like to read the debates on various issues so that I can form opinions on situations or items that I have not previously had opinions on. And, I like to learn.

But I find it really hard to read your posts when you try and discredit anyone who does not agree with you by 'digging' up ulterior motives. How can you tell so much about a poster from their name?

If we were to do that for your posting name, which literally translates from German to ‘joker’, then should I not believe anything you post?

surkamp

Lynda S

Thanks for that, it might be funny but certainly not a joke if people believe this.

spassvogel

Lynda
You are entirely free to believe in anything which is posted here.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion I did "'digging' up ulterior motives. How can you tell so much about a poster from their name? "

I just checked which posts have been posted by the two in question and (as you can do it yourself) you wonÄt find anything of quality.

And yes - it's a totally different matter whether someone DOES NOT AGREE or someone DOES SIMPLY STATE LIES which are contrary to what is reality.

I don't have a clue why you know, after I posted my results and above facts, still doubt what is fact here regarding hunting in Namibia.

Sorry - I always appreciated your posts but now I am baffled and ask myself where your motivation lies to attack.

My posting name being used in order to discredit me is not supporting your cause - you can do better.

SV

surkamp

LyndaS

It seems that you have proved your point, remember not to disagree with German Travel agents in future!

THERE IS A MORATORIOM ON THE HUNTING OF LEOPARDS AND CHEETAH IN NAMIBIA WHETHER SPASSVOGEL LIKES IT OR NOT.

People can be so rude about their former colonies?

LyndaS

Sorry, SV, I wasn't attacking you and I certainly wasn't questioning any of your facts that you wrote about hunting in Namibia, (as I am not qualified to comment on this subject yet as I have not done my proper research into it one way or the other). I'm sorry that you read that into my post.

And I was not using your posting name to discredit you in any way shape or form, sorry again that you took it that way.

I just simply recalled from two other posts, one of them which was quite malicious, that you called other posters into question by doing searches on their names, etc.

Again, I have NO motivation to attack, and did not mean it to come across that way. Guess I was being like a 'mom'. (which apparanetly is forte in life )