Fayum

Dear Fodorites,

I have lived in Egypt as an expatriate for many years. The last couple of years, I have witnessed many incidences of young Egyptian men, anywhere from 10-25 years of age, asking foreign women to pose for pictures with them. When the women agree to the photo, they will drape their arms around them. Although to westerners, this seems innocent enough, these are TROPHY shots. In this culture, it is absolutely forbidden to touch or even make eye contact with a woman who is not directly related to you. They would not in a million years ask an Egyptian woman to pose like that and neither should they be asking you. I am sure that I will get slammed as an old fuddy-duddy, but I am an anthropologist who understands a lot about this culture and unless you do a whole lot of reading or live here, you would be shocked by how conservative Egypt really is.

I also was on a cruise recently and heard of two instances of touts grabbing tourists wallets and helping themselves to the contents as they were struggling to count out the unfamiliar bills. If they do this, grab it back and end the deal right there. You will not come out that kind of transaction with any kind of bargain.

sunshine007

I'm as against this as Fayum -- being a Trophy picture isn't all bad. But it could end up with some unwelcomed physical contact or loss of important documents, wallet or purse, so you do need to be careful as you would anywhere with strangers.

Fayum forgets, however, that all Egyptians are not Moslems. About 10% of the local population is Coptic Christian & have no such restraints on interaction with women.

harsha

This has happened to us too. We were a group of 10,who travelled in Egypt last May.The tour manager was a decent guy but the one of his assistants did act 'fresh' with our womenfolk.He was blatant and had to told in no uncertain terms that he find a fist square in his face.He immediately made himself scarce.
You do find this lewd behavior in a lot of middle eastern countries, where the men,behave depraved, are under the impression that they an take liberties with tourists.Do not tolerate it at any cost.Be firm and put them in their place.
Unfortunately, I'm a witness, to a young woman on a holiday in Egypt,going beyond her limits (in my opinion) and acting over familiar with locals ( innocently I presume)which is unsafe.This behavior encourages locals to do such unpleasent deeds.
It's always advisable to respect the local culture and traditions at 'arms distance'

Fayum

Harsha, you are right about not acting overly familiar or friendly--it simply does not mean the same thing to these men as to westerners. I should have also mentioned that there have been instances of camel or horse jockeys climbing into the saddle with western women. This happened to a friend visiting me when I couldn't be with her. I actually had the guy arrested as this action is beyond prohibited, or, "momnoah" in Arabic. Some examples of the separation of the sexes here: most girls and boys are in different schools, not just different classes, if you attend an average wedding the men and the women are either on separate floors, or in the case of street weddings, separated at right angles to each other, men will not get in the elevator with me, nor come into my home if my husband is not here--they are protecting my honor, women are not expected to wait in a line with men, but instead jump to the front. There is a saying that goes, "if there is and unrelated man and woman in a room alone, the third person in the room is the devil". It is very, very different here than in the west.

sunshine007

Fayum lives in a different Egypt than I do.

nelle_1234

I went to Egypt in June and I agree with the initial posting. I went with a tour group and the Tour guy was an Egyptian Man and he told all of us females about what was right and wrong. We went on a horse-carriage ride and one of the younger girls wanted to pose w/ the driver and the carriage in the background. He came up and put his arm around her and then caressed her chest. It was all caught on the digital camera and the driver was arrested.

Bill_H

Reading this reminds me of a book I read about the first all-women team of mountaineers to try to climb K-2 in Pakistan ... the 8-10 women were the only Westerners in the group, with maybe 60 Pakistan porters and an officious military officer as the offical assigned as the 'liason' to make sure the rules were followed.

When they got to a small glacial stream the alpha female decided it would be nice if the porters carried the women across and the offical said if they were carrying the women they had to carry him as well.

The first women climber jumped on the back of a porter and put her arms around her neck and he carried her across. Repeated with the second women ... the military official, who had been watching with great interest, said "I change my mind ... I want to carry a woman across too"

Grcxx3

While I agree with some of the things Fayum has said - I'm with sunshine007, I never found things to be so extreme. I had many, many men (various delivery and service/maintenance workers) who came into my flat without my husband present. And I certainly never got the impression that I could have jumped to the front of a line (maybe that's just for the Egyptian women). If anything, men usually tried to push their way in front of me.

While I agree that women should be wary of unwanted "friendliness" from strange men, this is true anywhere - not just Egypt.

annhig

my experience in tunisia twenty of so years ago, was very different, depending on whether my husband was with me or not.

With him around, men [never women] were pushy, sometimes rude; without him, they were utterly polite and respectful!

Base on this admittedly limited experience, my preference would be for solo travel in arab countries.

Denbasking

For Bill_H:

That's FUNNY! You also brought a smile to my husband's face who used to live in Pakistan.

Den

lerasp

i had a similar experience on my trips to egypt and morocco. when i was traveling with men (oncce my father, other times with male friends), local men were definitely agressive (especially touts, shopkeepers, etc. then i was on a trip with only women (3 of us) and everyone was polite, we got no hassles at all and had no untoward contact.

sandi

Goodness, I wouldn't let any man touch me without permission, certainly not young ones and strangers, at that. Regardless where one travels or at home. And, it's not being rude to clearly define what is acceptable or not.

We've traveled to Muslim countries and never found men (of any age) to be other than gracious and respectful. Some, admittedly, more agressive if salespersons, where a simple "thanks, but no thank you" and a smile was all that was needed. More often, we were asked to join them for tea or a hubble bubble, with stories of their families, country, goverment... and world peace. Very normal.

We've been in Egypt, Jordan and Israel - no problems. Even recall when in Jordan, getting ready to drive down to Petra, my friend was wearing a skirt, proper length and the "guys" all gorgeous in their 30-40s said, "I don't think you will be comfortable riding the donkey to the Siq" She changed into slacks. Most thoughtful of them, if I must say. And when visiting one of the temples in Amman, our guide, a devout Muslim wouldn't shake hands... hey, that's fine. He apparently had washed to be ready for prayers after working with us. Not only fine, quite understandable.

Sure, we've taken photos of our guides, but never any "touching" and all most respectful.

People just have to remember when they leave home to take their common sense and know the culture into which they are entering.

sunshine007

Bill H, you made me laugh out aloud.