worth the money?
Aug 23rd, 2007, 10:15 AM
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worth the money?
I’ll probably regret starting this thread (because I suspect I will get a bit of a hammering) but I was nevertheless interested in exchanging some views on the rates charged by top level camps throughout east and southern Africa. According to the research I am doing for a trip in 2008 these seem to be in the region of $600 per person per night (maybe it’s just the places I’ve been looking at but the price rises seem to be quite significant between 07 and 08).
$600 per night each is a lot of money for most people. I, like many others, will probably continue to pay it due to my passion for the wilds of Africa and to ensure that the limited time I get to spend in my favourite place is as good as it can be. But it does make me think when I sometimes hear reports on this website and other travel forums (and indeed from experiences of my own) of pretty average service from some camps charging these fees (some with extremely high reputations) – guides who do little more than drive around and say “there’s a buffalo”, pretty average buffet food, indifferent attitude towards clients, etc. This is not always the case, clearly, but when you pay $600 a night I think one is entitled to expect very high standards of service, food guiding, etc, without exception.
The argument often made to justify high prices is the remoteness of camps and the associated difficult logistics. I accept this to a point, although other types of establishments also have there own cost issues to deal with. For example a hotel in central London, Paris or New York have to grapple with the high cost of land and other services, and I can find a 5 star room in any of these cities for rather less than $600 per person. Moreover, one would expect a very standard in these places and would not except any excuse for not receiving it.
Of course, when we go on safari we get a couple of activities a day rather than just a room. On this point I am frequently told that guides are paid very poorly even in the best camps, which is why we should tip generously. You could, of course, argue that there should be enough from $600 a night to be able to pay guides a decent wage. You might also argue that the fact that guides are being paid poor wages and relying on substantial tips to bring their income up to a reasonable level is a hidden cost to the client on top of the extremely high room rate.
I appreciate that many will argue that supply and demand governs decisions on pricing but I do sometimes wonder whether these fees are really justified given the service sometimes provided, or are they just derived from the reputation of the establishment, or more probably the park that they are located in.
Thoughts?
$600 per night each is a lot of money for most people. I, like many others, will probably continue to pay it due to my passion for the wilds of Africa and to ensure that the limited time I get to spend in my favourite place is as good as it can be. But it does make me think when I sometimes hear reports on this website and other travel forums (and indeed from experiences of my own) of pretty average service from some camps charging these fees (some with extremely high reputations) – guides who do little more than drive around and say “there’s a buffalo”, pretty average buffet food, indifferent attitude towards clients, etc. This is not always the case, clearly, but when you pay $600 a night I think one is entitled to expect very high standards of service, food guiding, etc, without exception.
The argument often made to justify high prices is the remoteness of camps and the associated difficult logistics. I accept this to a point, although other types of establishments also have there own cost issues to deal with. For example a hotel in central London, Paris or New York have to grapple with the high cost of land and other services, and I can find a 5 star room in any of these cities for rather less than $600 per person. Moreover, one would expect a very standard in these places and would not except any excuse for not receiving it.
Of course, when we go on safari we get a couple of activities a day rather than just a room. On this point I am frequently told that guides are paid very poorly even in the best camps, which is why we should tip generously. You could, of course, argue that there should be enough from $600 a night to be able to pay guides a decent wage. You might also argue that the fact that guides are being paid poor wages and relying on substantial tips to bring their income up to a reasonable level is a hidden cost to the client on top of the extremely high room rate.
I appreciate that many will argue that supply and demand governs decisions on pricing but I do sometimes wonder whether these fees are really justified given the service sometimes provided, or are they just derived from the reputation of the establishment, or more probably the park that they are located in.
Thoughts?
Aug 23rd, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Its worth what the market will bear. If I ran a lodge, I would charge the most to maximize my annual revenue, not a penny less. Fortunately, we have a choice, and research should (but does not always) reveal who provides excellent service, and who does not.
Some may rest on their reputations, as some Michelin three-star restaurants do (like Paul Bocuse, where I had a less-than-three-star meal), but so long as the lodge (or restaurant) is full, there may be no incentive to improve service (or the meal).
Some may rest on their reputations, as some Michelin three-star restaurants do (like Paul Bocuse, where I had a less-than-three-star meal), but so long as the lodge (or restaurant) is full, there may be no incentive to improve service (or the meal).
Aug 23rd, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Prices at many luxury camps did go up quite a bit over 2007 in Kenya and Tanzania.
Is the $600/person/nt you quote lodging only, or inclusive of daily Park Fees (currently approx. $40/day/person, expected to rise in Kenya; some are actually higher already), flights to/from?
If inclusive, then that's it. What the market will bear, yet there are a number of camps even more expensive.
Is the $600/person/nt you quote lodging only, or inclusive of daily Park Fees (currently approx. $40/day/person, expected to rise in Kenya; some are actually higher already), flights to/from?
If inclusive, then that's it. What the market will bear, yet there are a number of camps even more expensive.
Aug 23rd, 2007, 03:05 PM
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Is it worth it? i can't answer that question.......
You are seeing the price increase due to the over-whelming demand for safaris to Africa. Also, the USD has depreciated in recent times (that may just have some bearing, not as much as the demand thing....)
Ofcourse, i expect the camps to charge so much and provide me with quality guiding with their emphasis on game viewing. That's a very reasonable expectation! Ofcourse, you can't predict what animals you are going to see and when.....we can save that for the zoo!
I have never encountered bad service or food in any of the camps/lodges i have been in across Africa.....if at all, i can only complain that there is too much food and drink available on hand.
Your mention of buffet food.....i'm happy with that! With pre-plated dinners and celebrity chefs, more often than not that requires you to get back for dinner within a certain time frame!!! pre-plated dinners you can have any day of the week at home....
There maybe a time when the ever increasing prices stabilize ..... when and at what price, i don't know.... then comes back to your initial question, is it worth it? same answer....don't know....
Rgds,
Hari
You are seeing the price increase due to the over-whelming demand for safaris to Africa. Also, the USD has depreciated in recent times (that may just have some bearing, not as much as the demand thing....)
Ofcourse, i expect the camps to charge so much and provide me with quality guiding with their emphasis on game viewing. That's a very reasonable expectation! Ofcourse, you can't predict what animals you are going to see and when.....we can save that for the zoo!
I have never encountered bad service or food in any of the camps/lodges i have been in across Africa.....if at all, i can only complain that there is too much food and drink available on hand.
Your mention of buffet food.....i'm happy with that! With pre-plated dinners and celebrity chefs, more often than not that requires you to get back for dinner within a certain time frame!!! pre-plated dinners you can have any day of the week at home....
There maybe a time when the ever increasing prices stabilize ..... when and at what price, i don't know.... then comes back to your initial question, is it worth it? same answer....don't know....
Rgds,
Hari
Aug 23rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
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Perhaps compare the safari $600pppn with another other all inclusive "resort" experiences.
How about the world wide - Cub Med. Club Med Cancun, $230 pppn.
How about cruises - Crsytal Cruise Lines around $300 pppn. QE2 or QM2, don't ask.
So what does this prove? I dunno
But I do know I feel a safari at $600 is worth FOR ME more than twice the experience of Club Med or a cruise.
regards - tom
How about the world wide - Cub Med. Club Med Cancun, $230 pppn.
How about cruises - Crsytal Cruise Lines around $300 pppn. QE2 or QM2, don't ask.
So what does this prove? I dunno
But I do know I feel a safari at $600 is worth FOR ME more than twice the experience of Club Med or a cruise.regards - tom
Aug 23rd, 2007, 05:17 PM
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I also thought the prices were absolutely ludicrous. My husband and I are paying about $500 pp/night which is more than we've ever paid for a trip. We could stay in some pretty swanky hotels for $1000/night.
I also feel as you do that it is unfair to pass on extra costs to the customer by asking us to pay tips to the drivers, guides, and lodge employees. Our safari agent suggested that we pay $15 pp/day total in tips to driver, guides, and staff.
I guess if customers are willing to pay this much, then there is nothing to do unless everyone protests the tipping issue. I wonder how the guides feel knowing how much we are paying for the safari.
That being said, it is a dream trip of a lifetime so we have decided to go despite the high costs. It took a while for us to get over the "sticker shock" though. If the service, food, and accomodations are anything but excellent, you can bet the safari company will hear about it!
I also feel as you do that it is unfair to pass on extra costs to the customer by asking us to pay tips to the drivers, guides, and lodge employees. Our safari agent suggested that we pay $15 pp/day total in tips to driver, guides, and staff.
I guess if customers are willing to pay this much, then there is nothing to do unless everyone protests the tipping issue. I wonder how the guides feel knowing how much we are paying for the safari.
That being said, it is a dream trip of a lifetime so we have decided to go despite the high costs. It took a while for us to get over the "sticker shock" though. If the service, food, and accomodations are anything but excellent, you can bet the safari company will hear about it!
Aug 23rd, 2007, 07:16 PM
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we decided to cancel our trip and will be going over Christmas because the summer months were too expensive. we also canceled the lodges we were going to and will be in some more locally owned or involved ones so that our money goes further..
As an environmentalist I love the idea of limiting visitors to the camps, but I worry about the trash produced by the chocolate covered strawberries, and the increased traffic/noise/pollution delivering those strawberries into the camps. As a human I am distressed over the fact that it is only a very small group of people that can enjoy the camps.
I agree, the prices are obscene.
As an environmentalist I love the idea of limiting visitors to the camps, but I worry about the trash produced by the chocolate covered strawberries, and the increased traffic/noise/pollution delivering those strawberries into the camps. As a human I am distressed over the fact that it is only a very small group of people that can enjoy the camps.
I agree, the prices are obscene.
Aug 24th, 2007, 12:05 AM
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I think that everybody questions the prices, they are beginning to get rather extravagant. If you are lucky enough to end up paying your bill in Euros or Sterling, the increases in the $ prices are mostly offset by the weakness of the $. It is nevertheless true to say that greater prices equate to more luxury and profit for the owners, rather than increase in wages for the staff.
Aug 24th, 2007, 04:10 AM
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The one mistake I made this past June was staying 2 nights in the Serengeti Serena.
Should have added another night at NCL for a total of 3 and added the other to Kirawira for a total of 4. Would have definitely been worth the extra cost.
Should have added another night at NCL for a total of 3 and added the other to Kirawira for a total of 4. Would have definitely been worth the extra cost.
Aug 24th, 2007, 04:16 AM
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<<We could stay in some pretty swanky hotels for $1000/night.>>
I read this comparison often, but, to me, its inapposite.
I have stayed in 5-star hotels (eg, Claridges, Four Seasons and Ritz Carltons), but those stays are typically for business when price is not an object and I need access to their services. For personal travel, I shy away from those hotels because I found I was paying a lot of money for a bed. Unlike on safari, when a lot of non-sleeping time is spent at the lodge, I spend virtually no non-sleeping time in a hotel when I'm sightseeing in a city.
A better comparison may be to a Caribbean resort, where I understand (I have not taken one of those vacations) the guests spend most of their time at the hotel. So, for that type of vacation, the hotel is more than "just a bed."
Michael
I read this comparison often, but, to me, its inapposite.
I have stayed in 5-star hotels (eg, Claridges, Four Seasons and Ritz Carltons), but those stays are typically for business when price is not an object and I need access to their services. For personal travel, I shy away from those hotels because I found I was paying a lot of money for a bed. Unlike on safari, when a lot of non-sleeping time is spent at the lodge, I spend virtually no non-sleeping time in a hotel when I'm sightseeing in a city.
A better comparison may be to a Caribbean resort, where I understand (I have not taken one of those vacations) the guests spend most of their time at the hotel. So, for that type of vacation, the hotel is more than "just a bed."
Michael
Aug 24th, 2007, 06:10 AM
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My wife and I got free airline tickets through Delta's frequent flyer program. That saved us almost $5000. Paying for airline tickets would have put the trip out of reach for us.
Our trip is costing about $4000pp.
Our trip is costing about $4000pp.
Aug 24th, 2007, 06:44 AM
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Not to undercut the basic premise that safaris are expensive and costs are rising, but keep in mind $600/day or whatever includes the room and meals plus the park fees (which are also rising rapidly ... check out the new Ngorongoro Crater fees) and, most important, a nice shiny 4WD vehicle with a well-trained guide. Check the cost of vehicles in Kenya and Tz, and check the cost of gas and you'll likely see both are much higher than in the US.
I'm planning two trips to Alaska next summer and the best places in Katmai and Denali are actually costing us more per day than our safari to Tanzania did this past January And I get more good photo chances in a good day in the Serengeti than I do in a week in Denali, so maybe at some level it's worth it?
BTW, I'd always heard Kenya was about 25% less expensive than Tanzania, staying at comparable lodges (say Serena level) ... am planning out a Kenya trip now and the day costs in the Mara for 2008 were quoted about 40% higher than we paid in Tanzania last January ... did the prices go up that much or do I have the wrong outfitter or ??
Bill
I'm planning two trips to Alaska next summer and the best places in Katmai and Denali are actually costing us more per day than our safari to Tanzania did this past January
And I get more good photo chances in a good day in the Serengeti than I do in a week in Denali, so maybe at some level it's worth it?BTW, I'd always heard Kenya was about 25% less expensive than Tanzania, staying at comparable lodges (say Serena level) ... am planning out a Kenya trip now and the day costs in the Mara for 2008 were quoted about 40% higher than we paid in Tanzania last January ... did the prices go up that much or do I have the wrong outfitter or ??
Bill
Aug 24th, 2007, 06:53 AM
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I also wonder how much it costs the lodge/camp owners to maintain the private reserve that their located on.
I believe that in some cases they must pay rent and donate a % or flat rate to the local communities, as well.
I'm guessing that these fees are steep enough to not only keep the number of nearby lodges down but to keep hunters away.
I believe that in some cases they must pay rent and donate a % or flat rate to the local communities, as well.
I'm guessing that these fees are steep enough to not only keep the number of nearby lodges down but to keep hunters away.
Aug 24th, 2007, 06:54 AM
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I agree that the prices are high. However... the camps are not just paying guides. They are paying cooks, laundry workers, tent cleaners, mechanics, reservations/accounting staff (some), bartenders, "butlers", and for the generators or other power that provides our nice cool drinks, petrol for the vehicles, hmmmm... I'm sure I've left some things out. If lodges are on mains power, of course it's a bit easier, but it's not cheap to run these places, especially the more remote ones. Just food for thought...
Aug 24th, 2007, 08:29 AM
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I’ve never paid anything close to $600 pppn, but if I could afford it and there were no alternatives, I’d pay it. However that kind of price is so outrageous that not even the average spoilt westerner can afford it, at least not people who have children, a house and a car. Of course, this doesn’t apply to Fodorites.
My impression is that the biggest cost for camps are the vehicles. The laundry workers are probably cheaper than the complimentary soaps.
I just have to add that there is no such thing as “2008 prices”. Prices are almost always negotiable if you deal directly with the camps.
My impression is that the biggest cost for camps are the vehicles. The laundry workers are probably cheaper than the complimentary soaps.
I just have to add that there is no such thing as “2008 prices”. Prices are almost always negotiable if you deal directly with the camps.
Aug 24th, 2007, 09:03 AM
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Hey cooncat,
Did you go to Bots. yet - if not when?
Hi Nyamera,
How much did you spend on average per night on your trip? I haven't been around much lately and missed your report. I can't seem to find it.
Did you go to Bots. yet - if not when?
Hi Nyamera,
How much did you spend on average per night on your trip? I haven't been around much lately and missed your report. I can't seem to find it.
Aug 24th, 2007, 09:39 AM
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Hi Sherry,
I paid $1095 for a 6-nights road trip to Bushbuck Camp everything, even group ranch fees, included. That was in June and the first price I was told. I didn’t even ask for a better price. I don’t know why, maybe because I spend too much time on Fodor’s. It’s less than $183pn.
In July, that’s high season, I paid about the same (7517 Swedish kronor were taken from my account = aprox. $1100) for a 4-nights <b>air</b> package to Mara Intrepids, after haggling. That didn’t include park fees, so it was really $1260. This is $310pn and definitely too expensive.
I’m a solo traveller and both prices include transport to the Mara, but prices have certainly increased from previous trips. In 2004 I paid $120pn, everything included, for a very nice camp in Tsavo East. In Nairobi I spend a fraction of the safari prices.
My report is here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35039610
I paid $1095 for a 6-nights road trip to Bushbuck Camp everything, even group ranch fees, included. That was in June and the first price I was told. I didn’t even ask for a better price. I don’t know why, maybe because I spend too much time on Fodor’s. It’s less than $183pn.
In July, that’s high season, I paid about the same (7517 Swedish kronor were taken from my account = aprox. $1100) for a 4-nights <b>air</b> package to Mara Intrepids, after haggling. That didn’t include park fees, so it was really $1260. This is $310pn and definitely too expensive.
I’m a solo traveller and both prices include transport to the Mara, but prices have certainly increased from previous trips. In 2004 I paid $120pn, everything included, for a very nice camp in Tsavo East. In Nairobi I spend a fraction of the safari prices.
My report is here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35039610
