Where to see the last remains of San culture??

Old Mar 14th, 2008, 06:01 AM
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aby
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Where to see the last remains of San culture??

hi

Where can one see the last remains of San /!Kung (what colonialists used to call "Bushmen") culture??

Even if it is in some farm which pays for demonstration of an extinct culture...

thanks

aby
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 06:12 AM
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The last remaining true San people live in the Kalahari are of the Northern Cape - South Africa. The whole area is rich in San rock engravings. The Mc Gregor Museum in Kimberley has a good collection.
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 06:24 AM
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I am sure these people will be interested to find out they are not true San:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/from...6618901553.htm
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 06:52 AM
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There are two good places, the one is Bushmans Kloof in the Northern Cape and the other is Jacks/San Camp in Botswana
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 09:09 AM
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We have plans to connect with some Sans tribes people when we go to Planet Baobab and a desert camp out in the pans.
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 09:21 AM
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a great safari if interested in the bushman, http://www.safariguidesafrica.com/bu...ari_africa.htm

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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 09:26 AM
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gives you an idea of places, ie.
Tsodilo hills 1500 rock paintings
San Musuem at D’kar
New Xade new home of the bushmen after
evicted.
Molapo another setlement etc.
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 12:44 PM
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Bots: that looks like an outstanding itinerary to focus on bushman culture, a great way to experience a diversity of interesting places.

Aby: Deception Valley Lodge is an outstanding place to see bushmen in action using their tracking skills on all of your drives and they also do an amazing educational walk demonstrating some of their survival skills and sharing their knowledge of the Kalahari.

There is another very interesting lodge called Grassland Bushman that is on the west side of the CKGR in the Ghanzi district. This lodge is a 5th generation farm turned wildlife concession and other than the family every employee is a bushman and there is a bushmen village about 15 km away where they all hail from. I am told this is a place that has a very interactive relationship with the bushmen and different from DVL, Jack's, San, and Makgadikgadi Camp in that instead of just seeing men and learning on walks etc. you will see families, children, babies, mothers, everyone in the community. I have also been told this is an area where traditional hunting and gathering still occur (extremely rare to find anymore) and I believe it's possible to gather with them (not sure about hunting). My understanding is that there are also impromptu opportunities to witness very special things but the most sacred will not be staged or faked. Thus, much like having great fortune to see a predator make a kill there are no promises but if you are there when a trance dance occurs you can witness it. Some areas promise such things for tourists but then they cannot be real, just an elaborate show. I have not been to this lodge yet so I cannot promise that everything above is accurate but that is what I recall being told, however, I am trying to start a research project in conjunction with this lodge and using it as a base so I think I'm probably going to visit in April to check things out for my research and I will certainly report back how it is with regards to bushman culture as I'm fascinated by these people and they are a big reason I want to go there.

As an aside bushman is the preferred term by the people themselves. (This will be a loose interpretation and I invite correction if someone knows more about this than what I recall reading and being told) The confusion stems from the fact that as the first people they had no name for themselves, they were simply called us. San was actually a derogatory term used by tribal people who became cattle owners and San was derived from a word that meant something like those without. The first anthropologists on the scene picked up this name, San, and did not realize its meaning or history when assigning it to the people. It has been used so widely that it has sort of become accepted and seems to be widely assumed to be polite vs. bushman but the fact is the people were proud of living in the bush and it fits them more appropriately and thus they are most comfortable with that label if there must be one as really nothing else can fit.
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 01:31 PM
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The only SAN group who still live "off the land" is in the northern parts of Namibia.
There is a fantastic awareness centre on the west coast road from Cape Town called KHWATTU!!.
Also see a documentary called "BUSHMANS SECRETS". It gives you a good idea of how the intellectual property of these people have been signed away by the authorities...and these (SAN)are the people who have been granted "first nation" status by the UN.as the original inhabitants of South Africa.
Today we have many other groups trying to lay claim to the intellectual property of the SAN because international law says they should be compensated for it.
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 02:44 PM
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Bill, thanks for that info about bushman v. san. I too had thought that san was the politer term so it's good to know the truth of it.

I wonder if the Gadikwa Camp in that linked itinerary in Bots' post is the same Gudigwa Camp we visited in 2004?
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Old Mar 14th, 2008, 06:24 PM
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"San was derived from a word that meant something like those without"

Sans in French, meaning without--how odd, a coincidence?

Good info in this link, thanks.

Aby,
I've been ordering you to do your Costa Rica report from all different forums and different threads. You have not followed orders yet.
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 02:26 AM
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Thanks to you all about the info

Please specify first-hand experience. what have you done on the visit? & what's your personal opinion on the subject
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 02:30 AM
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PB i remembered your report & hoped you'd pop-in

Bots, Doogle, Chris90
have you visited them ?
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 02:32 AM
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Sub-Thread Discussions


Name

About the name of the ethnic group:
Though "San" is generally considered the best term. it seems almost every name has some negative effect at least on some community members

According to anthropologists Elizabeth Marshall Thomas and Richard Lee, the term "Bushmen" is pejorative and no longer accepted in the anthropological community. In his 1979 ethnography "The Kung San: Men, Women and Work in a Foraging Society," Mr. Lee wrote that "the term Bushmen has both racist and sexist connotations."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060601754.html

I prefered using the linguistic definition by main-stream anthropology = "San". Personally I had a feeling "bushman" began as a name with some negative connotation (though I simply admire the peoples' field knowledge, and am sure PB does too & so many fodorites… )

I use the term San when talking to western-culture folks, I agree that we should be careful when talking to the local communities. Here, we should maybe use their own chosen names like !Kung, Khwe, Ju/’hoansi

I've experienced something like it in Zaire when I was reluctant to say "Pigmy" & used what I considered to be a scientific term "BaTwa". The Zairian guy who organized my gorillas' visits said it may be offensive to them…

In South Africa "Bushman" is considered derogatory by some groups (wikipedia)

But there's also negative connotations to "San"
The term "San" was historically applied by their ethnic relatives and historic rivals, the Khoikhoi. This term means "outsider" in the Nama language and was derogatory because it distinguished the Bushmen from what the Khoikhoi called themselves, namely the First People (wikipedia)



Intellectual Property

[
Intellectual property: Hoodia gordinii. The San call the cactus !khoba
Africa's Bushmen May Get Rich From Diet-Drug Secret
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...0416_san1.html

Bushmen to share gains from ‘slimming cactus’
http://www.scidev.net/en/news/bushme...ng-cactus.html


CKGR eviction & diamonds - articles:

Last exit from the Kalahari: the slow genocide of the Bushmen/San http://www.opendemocracy.net/globali...rticle_267.jsp

Bushmen fight for homeland – BBC 2005 with comments
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4480883.stm


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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 03:13 AM
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africanj
Have you been to those communities?
can you give more info


Lynn my dear
didn't want to hijack threads towards Central America; though i've (unsatisfactorily??)answered on another thread...
anyhow, on day 1 we've had an emergency landing in Liberia (instead of San Jose). after a few hours delay it took us 6 hours more on the bus to get to San Jose.
Day 2: Landslide which blocked the road to Tortuguero. the detour took us hours again...
Day 3: bus breakdown, so missed the Catamaran cruise. some bridge repairing made us come late to Manuel Antonio
Day 4: we had to do some of day 3 program... etc'
wanna hear more?
Horrible people in the group.
who wants ro write a report ???
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 03:15 AM
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Yes to D'KAR, Gadikwa , San Museum.
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 08:50 AM
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Aby: thanks for all those reference links. Funny about the name as one of my main sources is also Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, who is one of the best authorities on this, but she seems to have changed her tune from your reference. In her 2006 book (which is excellent learning material!) The Old Way: A Story of the First People she clarifies her views on Words and Names in the preface:

"The five groups of San or Bushmen are called the First People. Most call themselves Bushmen when referring to themselves collectively. I respect this and use the term Bushman rather than San in the text."

This is inline with my limited experience as at Deception Valley Lodge and Makgadikgadi Camp the people referred to themselves as bushmen and out of curiosity my first time at DVL I enquired about it and was told by one tracker that he had no issue with the name bushman and that they had become proud of that title and preferred it. Likewise at Mapula Lodge most of the staff are River Bushmen and likewise they call themselves bushman.

I double checked my memory on the orgin of San too that is covered in the same book.

Parapharase so as not to copy the whole book:

The Khoikhoi (a group of former hunter-gathers's who speak Nama) had acquired cattle and begun to farm. They had a pejorative word, san, to encompass people who lived without livestock which they than used to label the bushmen. Then came an anthropologist (Isaak Schapera) to study the Khoikhoi and he picked up on their term San for the bushmen and popularized their language as Khoisan. A Harvard research group followed and copied the term and liked it because it removed the stigma of primativeness suggested by 'bush' as well as the gender bias of 'man'. The great irony is bushmen society is one where men and women are true equals and thus they have no such insecurities and issues and such correctness is only necessary for us, its a concept that does not apply to them.

As you can see this is an amazing book for information on this most fascinating culture of the First People. Hopefully I will find that Grassland Bushman lodge is truly a good place to witness and interact with bushmen culture as I have been told. I will dig this thread up and report on that experience once I have visited.
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 11:11 AM
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Aby, my family live among the SAN in the Kalahari in a place called Rietfontein. They run a guesthouse there. As a child i spent many holidays there and in Askam as the then principal of the local school in Askam, Mr. Bok, used to lodge with my grand-parents in Cape Town when he was still a student.
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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 11:22 AM
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Goodness, sounds like it's really not clearcut as to which term to use. When in doubt, ask. That's my rule.

And it's true, when we were visiting specific communities we knew the name of the village or people so we used that instead.

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Old Mar 15th, 2008, 11:23 AM
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PS Meant to add, Aby, I went to Gudigwa Camp when it was sold by Wilderness Safaris but run by the local community. That was in 2004. Previous to our visit it had been closed for a long period for rebuilding after a fire. And it closed again not long after our visit.

When it re-opened it was no longer being marketed by WS and so it's hard to know whether the experiences would be same or different to ours.
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