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Mar 26th, 2006, 03:29 AM
  #61
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With your insights mzeetembo perhaps you'd venture to explain where the funds (particularly in the Tanazian example) have trickled back into conservation? You rightly point out that these fees are going to governemnt hence the the status quo of the selous.

I agree that ultimately if it supports conservation (sustainable utilisation model) then its a practice that deserves to stay, BUT......

The mara stroy makes me get very hot under the collar. There must be about ten large lodges in the mara that attract 100 people a day, simple arithmatic has me at a figure of 1000 people entering the park daily well probably in the high season only call that 5 months of the year and if 100% could be achieved that equals around 150 000 people in the high season and lets argue that about 40% travel in the low season. that's around 85 000, making the conservative total for the year: 235 000 people, all paying $30 a day, generating a gross income for the authority of:
$7, 050,000 per year. Now have you seen that re-entering the mara ever?

So now my opinion is fast becoming if it pays the right pocket it stays and not necessarily the right cause.
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Mar 26th, 2006, 01:40 PM
  #62
 
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Pred

Thanks for the update, goes along with my bad experience at Lagoon.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 02:28 PM
  #63
 
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cybor,

The Bradt’s Botswana guide has a number of concession histories. According to this source in the 1970’s most concessions allowed both hunting and photo safaris. In 1985 Ker&Downey was split from Safari South to differentiate photographic camps from those used for hunting. More recently Vumbura and Duba Plains were strictly hunting areas until 1997 when Wilderness Safari started photo camps in these areas, with one hunting camp lasting in Vumbura until 2001. As of the publishing of this book, there was still a seasonal hunting camp in the Kwando concession far from the photo camps. If this still exists, perhaps Kwando customers can express their displeasure. I think this pattern has occurred elsewhere as photo safari tourism has expanded. However, I don’t know if this means there is less hunting or it has just been displaced.

I expect in the long run, there will be core reserves/parks with no hunting, and buffer/transition zones with continued hunting. This core/buffer zone seems to be the current paradigm to shield habitat from expanding human populations.

Rocco,

What you or I think about wild trophy hunting won’t matter much unless it influences the economics of the situation. Perhaps we can have more effect on the canned hunting industry, as most people seem to agree this is unethical. A quick search of the web reveals there is a movement gathering momentum to ban canned hunting in South Africa. Hopefully, if that succeeds it will spread across the continent.

I don’t think wild trophy hunting is going away. Just type in “trophy hunting” and any African country name into google and you’ll find an incredible amount of pictures of people with guns standing next to everything from dead baboons to dead zebras. There is a huge parallel world out there that I have not come across without typing the word “hunting”.

Here’s a hunting organizations best rationalization for trophy hunting if you’re interested in what they have to say.
http://www.conservationforce.org/wwh...cles.cfm?id=30


I was most surprised to find this article on the web detailing the World Conservation Union’s support of lion trophy hunting
http://www.iucn.org/en/news/archive/...13_pr_lion.htm

This is known as a fairly strong international body supporting the environment. The basic argument is as follows. Most lion kills result from farmer/herders. It would be better if these lions were killed by hunters who pay a fee of $60,000 and the money goes toward conservation programs.

This is an interesting article on the history of lion hunting (including the early wholesale slaughter) and also the pressures that the lion population currently faces which was used for background info for the recommendations.
http://www.felidae.org/JOBURG/LIONS,...NSERVATION.doc

I think it will all come down to economics. In 1990, the Khwai community in Botswana sold its annual hunting allocation for $240,000. What is going to replace that money.

The only hope is photo safaris, but it may just push hunting further afield. I think you will eventually see the core/buffer model I mentioned above. The main threat for healthy lion populations currently comes from cattle farming. That’s also why I think the Bradt guide is inaccurate in saying that photo tourism has greater environmental impact than hunting. Botswana’s largest industries are diamonds followed by cattle and tourism. If it was not for the development of photo safaris, even more habitat would have been lost to cattle than the habitat impact that photo safaris currently have.

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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:19 PM
  #64
 
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Sb,
Thanks for the good info. I've only had a chance to go to the first site you ref. to and got fired up enough to send an email to the worldconservation force - what a bunch of cro magnom bs. Do people actually fall for this garbage - don't answer, I already know.

These guys have absolutely zero data and just seem content to spout off seemingly arbortrary drivel to gather money from sentimental fools.



Sherry
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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:29 PM
  #65
 
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spbear,

I have not yet taken in your entire post, but I will give it some attention later and respond. However, I did want to respond in defense of Kwando and the hunting outfitter that may or may not still operate on Kwando's land.

Kwando does not make the decision on whether this hunting outfitter is allowed or not. This decision is left to the Botswanan government.

Kwando, to my knowledge, is the lowest impact photosafari operator in existence, with only 40 guest beds within its 1 million+ acres, a whopping average of 25,000 acres per guest. As a comparison, for example, as much as I appreciate the Sabi Sand, and as much as I believe an exclusive safari is available in the Sabi Sand, there are a minimum of about 25 lodges in the Sabi Sand, and if the average size is 20 beds, then there are 500 beds in the Sabi Sand's 140,000 acres. This is seven times smaller than Kwando with 12 times as many beds.

If there is a more exclusive company than Kwando, measuring land area per guest bed, I would like to know about it.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:32 PM
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The Sabi Sand, with 65,000 hectares (143,000 acres), even with 500 beds, if there are in fact this many, still offers 286 acres per guest bed, and that is not too shabby.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:40 PM
  #67
 
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Rocco,

I don't have anything against Kwando, but I think if their clients hear guns, they should question it so Kwando pressures the powers to move hunting farther from the core conservation areas.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:49 PM
  #68
 
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Sp,
I agree with you on the Kwando issue - if hunting exists nearby, speak up, $$$ always talks the loudest.

I couldn't get into the 2nd site but did read and was impressed with the data and potential solutions mentioned in the jober/lion/conserv. article.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 03:50 PM
  #69
 
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spbear,

I have never heard a report of any Kwando guests hearing gunshots. The concessions are so huge that I would be very surprised if the hunting occurred within 3 miles of the photosafari operation. There is surely hunting that goes on closer to some of the best South African luxury photosafari lodges, as well as the Zambian and Zim lodges.

Just earlier on this thread, for example, mkhonzo reported that while he was at Royal Malewane, one of the highest regarded luxury lodges in South Africa, he was able to hear the roars of lions nearby, and these were the lions, he said to be used on canned hunts. Surely they must have been within a mile or two.

Given the vastness of Kwando's concessions, I would venture to say that there are hunting concessions that occur just as close to other photosafari lodges in Botswana as well, although "just as close" may still be far out of hearing distance. Although I could do the research to prove this point, given my newfound status as a tour operator, I am not going to do so. There are still some in the industry that seemingly hold a grudge against me for my hunting revelations and the condemnation of photosafari tour operators who double dipped with hunting safaris.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 04:40 PM
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Never heard gunfire at any camp in Botswana, including Kwando.

As to Kwando's size, most of it is never traversed it is simply too far away from the camps to be reached in the course of a normal game drive. So while the bed density number is correct, it isn't that relevant. And lets face it, nowhere apparently can match East Africa for vehicles at sightings.

As to photographic safari operators double dipping by operating hunting camps, I have no experience, but Rocco maybe you could post the thread so I could read it.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 04:43 PM
  #71
 
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NapaMatt,

I was referring to tour operators, not safari lodges. I have documented this well in the past, but don't care to rehash it. While I believe my candor earns me the respect of most of my fellow Fodorites, it does not always make for the best relationship with some in the industry and I will leave it at that.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 05:01 PM
  #72
 
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Kwando concession is 860 square miles including 48 miles of river frontage and Kwara another 660 square miles. Duba Plains with 12 beds is 30,000 ha almost half the size of the Sabi Sand. This is why many people think the Botswana experience is the best because the amount of land per person is incredible.

Hopefully there will be no hunting camp in the future on Kwando Concession but it could well be 30 miles from the photo operation -- I am sure there are many closer hunting operations to other camps unfortunately.

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Mar 27th, 2006, 08:48 PM
  #73
 
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Rocco

Thanks for the clarification.
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Mar 27th, 2006, 09:05 PM
  #74
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Napamatt,

Sorry.......missed your question........yeah, the last test match......was a gift from the indians to the brits......who the hell wins the toss being 1-0 up in the series and opt to bowl on a pitch that is guaranteed to crumble??? Jeez!!!! Udal and Panesar???? u have to be kidding me????

Btw, i was in Durban in 2003 during that India-England World cup game and was awesome!!!! Hopefully, will be in the caribbean next year.......fingers crossed!!!

Hari
 
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Mar 28th, 2006, 12:31 AM
  #75
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Rocco,

I thought I should just make the point that it is not the government who decides whether hunting takes place inside a concession. Concessions are given one of three status'. A hunting concession, a photographic concession or a mixed concession. This is what is found up in the linyanti and kwando. It is the decision of the concession operator to decide how to use the area.

The whole area was once run by hunters africa, and there was lots of over hunting. Even if there is hunting on the property, the numbers of animals killed is probably minimal. The Selinda used to use Motswiri as a hunting camp until last year. In the annual report, found at the camp, very little game is actually shot. Mostly it is antelope or elephant. In the 13 yrs of report books, I think one lion was shot.

As botswana has started to cull some its elephants, why get $$$$$ from people willing to kill them.
 
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Mar 28th, 2006, 12:36 AM
  #76
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after looking closely at a map from the mid-1990s, which includes Kwando Lagoon as the hunting camp, river bend lodge, i cant see any other permanent lodge in the area. Only Motswiri, and this is a map that includes Tsum-Tsum hunting camp. I'm pretty sure that still exists. Based on my geography, tsum-tsum is very near the kwara concession.
 
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Mar 28th, 2006, 02:33 AM
  #77
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If you don't mind, the thread was initiated to discuss/argue lets fists fly over the types of hunting be it canned or "naturale", if you can call decapitiating a lion at fifty yards with a high calibre .458 or mini pazuka, natural?

thnks.
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