What's worse

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Mar 22nd, 2006, 09:50 AM
  #1
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What's worse

After reading Rocco's stirring appraisel of Africa Geographic I thought I'd pose a question.

Given that man, over the centuries, has taken up arms against mankind, justifying this pursuit as liberation and myriad other good causes, such as christianity as in the crusade and so on.....

That folks, revered today for their roles in discovery, exploration and son, folks such as Teddy Rooseveldt, Ernst Hemingway and even to this day Dick, a.k.a "the lawyer was a duck" Cheney will continue to nourish their testosterone by obliterating creatures large and small.

What is worse, shooting a dominant lion through the heart at a baited carcass or shooting a bred enclosed lion at a dead donkey?

Canned or not, the fact that these people exist means that the hunting trade is going to continue. So with my knowledge of nature and it's dynamics, rather let them hunt a captive lion than a wild one.

Over to you all.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 09:52 AM
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There are some of those people I wouldn't mind hunting. One of whom you mentioned in your post.

Whoops, did I say that?
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 09:57 AM
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IMHO, one is as equally disgusting as the other.
What's worse is people like the aforementioned who get their jollies by shooting another creature. Sad part about it is that these people are very well-off so we know they're not killing the animals for their own survival.
I've read articles on how our infamous VP participates in canned hunting on a regular basis.
I could easily wax on lyrically, but will bite my tongue as this is a family 'travel forum' and I don't want to offend anyone.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:07 AM
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I have no problem with someone going out to kill a lion ... as long as they go on foot and only have a knife.

Even better if the lions have jeeps and rifles with scopes.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:16 AM
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Then you all will be happy to know that the lions are getting their revenge-"Lions are killing people in Tanzania three times as often as they did 15 years ago"
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:24 AM
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Well I haven't seen that documented anywhere, so I don't know the truthiness of that statement

Unfortunately, those people being killed are most likely local farmers. I am sure the lions are turning the tables on hunters 3 times as much.

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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:40 AM
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Yip. Normally farmers protecting their crops. Usually in areas where lions are looking for prey like bush pig.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:40 AM
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I donít know. Hunting wild lions is a conservation problem and hunting canned lions is an animal welfare problem, but thereís probably more to this.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:41 AM
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Lest we forget that humans and our development are encroaching on the animals' habitats at an alarming rate therefore forcing the animals (i.e lions) into compromising situations.

It's not like the lions get up every morning and say to one another, "I think I'll go hunt and kill a human today just for the heck of it and try out my new rifle".

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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:42 AM
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quote from me:
<<I am sure the lions are turning the tables on hunters 3 times as much.>>

I meant to say "lions AREN'T"
Man I wish I could go back and edit my posts!
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:52 AM
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To me, the joy in killing another creature "just because I can" is a real head scratcher, all the way around. For subsistence, that's one thing. But just because it's fun? That has always been impossible for me to comprehend.

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Mar 22nd, 2006, 10:58 AM
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Ditto to Cooncat.

Perhaps the strangest people to meet at a camp like Kings Pool are the people who have just come from a week killing the animals they are now cooing over and photographing.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 11:25 AM
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Cooncat, I'm absolutely in agreement.

To the core of my being I just do not understand what motivates someone to hunt an animal for fun. I see images of these "people" posing proudly holding the carcass of a dead cheetah and wonder to myself how they can possibly find more joy in it's lifeless body than in watching the beauty and grace of the animal in life.

I just don't get it.

In terms of the original question; whilst I find the motivation of the hunter equally abhorrent in both cases, from a conservation point of view I object most strongly to the killing of fully wild animals - this kind of hunting has a huge impact on the future of the species itself whilst canned hunting, whilst equally disgusting to me, does not.

We only have to look at elephants today and the massively reduced occurence of truly big tuskers to see clearly how selective hunting in the past (the bigger the tusks the more likely the elephant was killed) has had an impact on the genetics of elephant populations today. Infact there are even now populations that are tuskless!!!
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 12:29 PM
  #14
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I can't agree more: there can be no moral justification for obliterating game in the name of sport canned or not!

Culling & science. perhaps there is leniency here for argument, but I don't to go there for now as that is a entirely different argument.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 01:17 PM
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Personally, I could never shoot an animal. It would just make me sad. However, I learned to fish for trout when I was young. I can kill a fish and eat it. I would never catch and release; why mess with the fish if you are not going to eat it. Now, I only fish when I backpack and (in my mind) ďlive off the land.Ē I also do a ceremony to thank the fish for its life, to take it with respect, and to be aware of the cycle of life. Everything we eat was recently alive. Our life depends on a lot of death.

I have a friend who refuses to buy meat in a store, but has a freezer full of ducks that he shoots. As an environmentalist, one of the paradoxes of hunting is that hunting organizations have done a lot to protect habitat and preserve species so they have something to shoot. In the U.S. Ducks Unlimited has preserved a huge amount of wetlands, and our bird populations are so much better off because of these hunters. Many of the national parks in Africa started off as hunting reserves, such as Moremi in Botswana.

The question now is should we still allow hunting. I donít know. I know I canít do it, but I also know that other people grew up hunting deer (whose population has exploded in the U.S. because we wiped out most ďnaturalĒ predators, except people). I also confronted this question while trying to help develop national parks in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan (on grounds that were formerly hunting preserves for the communist elite). They actually sold permits to hunt endangered species to westerners at $40,000 for marco polo sheep and would use the money to protect habitat and stop poaching the animals for food by locals, maybe a $100 value. Ideally, they would be able to fund their conservation efforts some other way. Ideally.

Iím against hunting of wild animals if they are an endangered species. As you can see from my screen name, bears are my favorite animal. People still hunt black bears in the U.S., mostly for the trophy, somewhat for the meat. I reluctantly accept limited hunting. People have different values from me. Some are even appalled that I kill about one wild fish a year.

Canned lion hunting doesnít seem very sporting to me. Itís difficult for me to see the how somebody could enjoy it, but I didnít grow up in a hunting culture. The lion will suffer when it is killed. But there is probably a lot more animal suffering from our treatment of pigs, cattle, and chickens in the overall scheme of thing, which you can find out if you read about those industries. However, these animals are not as sexy as lions, tigers, and bears.

Iím going to Africa this summer with my camera. Thereís a famous 1980 paper in the environmental economics literature showing that a Rhinoceros was worth $10,000 to a poacher, but worth $80,000 as a source of income to the photo safari industry. I think our photo safari crowd speaks with a loud voice with our tourism money, and the previously glorified wild trophy hunting industry will become more marginalized over time. The canned hunting industry, I donít know about. With our exploding deer population in the U.S., I donít see any end in sight for the hunting culture.

Many people on this board like to watch predators. Hunters argue that being a predator is part of human nature. Hopefully our human nature will evolve, and weíll stop killing other people too!
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 01:29 PM
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<<But there is probably a lot more animal suffering from our treatment of pigs, cattle, and chickens in the overall scheme of thing, which you can find out if you read about those industries. However, these animals are not as sexy as lions, tigers, and bears.>>

Of course there is great truth to thisI will admit I don't think much about chicken, pigs & cows. I gladly lay out poison for rodents. I used to put out slug bait when I lived in Seattle.

But I think, endangered animals, especially the "sexy" ones should not be hunted.

I am still considering things like farm raised mink. I hear the ways they are killed are pretty painful, but it is done to preserve the fur. I would be unlikely to wear one, unless I were in Alaska or some remote type area.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 01:45 PM
  #17
sandi
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A mink is a rodent!
A big one, a pretty one at that, but still a rodent, that I like very much for brrrrrr winters!

I have an issue with hunting of "sexy" species, whether canned or wild. As to killing animals for nourishment such as fish, cattle, hogs, chicken, which are farmed for this purpose... I have no issue.
 
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 01:52 PM
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But waynhazle in a full-length mink would be quite a sexy animal, methinks.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 02:04 PM
  #19
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Its funny how everyone has different standards.I have a couple of friends that hunt but they like me hate fur coats.Whether an animal is kept for canned hunting or bred for fur there lives are short,painful,and miserable and i would not wish it upon my worst enemy.

I would never hunt but i eat meat so i guess that makes me a hypocrite.

A story i heard in Tanzania about a hunter that shot an animal but the guide had to finish it.He turned around and saw this huge guy rip open his shirt and cut himself with his knife so he would look "heroic" in the picture tells me some of these guys live in there own little world.
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Mar 22nd, 2006, 02:15 PM
  #20
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... and wayne would sure be warm!
 
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