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Well, well, well...Just call me Rocco Rivera!!! (expose on hunting)

Well, well, well...Just call me Rocco Rivera!!! (expose on hunting)

Mar 29th, 2004, 05:56 AM
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If Classic Africa is not upfront about engaging in hunting safaris, that may just be the beginning. Perhaps Pierre Faber is a junior college dropout instead of the Rhodes Scholar he claims and Margaret is an ex-waitress from the Bronx instead of the NYU/Oxford alumnus that she claims to be on their website.

By supporting Classic Africa, I am afraid that you are also supportin Classic Hunting Safaris and therefore supporting the practice of hunting.

If nothing else and the above doesn't appeal to you enough, you are definitely paying 25% more than you should be paying for your itinerary. I will be happy to tell you of other photographic safari operators that will beat the pants off your quotation for the exact itinerary.

It is not too late if you haven't paid. Please make a stand against the fraud that is Classic Africa and save yourself thousands of dollars in the process by booking with another company.

I am not going to throw red paint on you llee, or call you any names, but I really think that you are in a great position to make a stand. You are in the perfect position to do so...booked but not yet paid. If you do choose to cancel, please, please, please, let them know that you do not appreciate their double crossing methods.

Thanks and, again, I will be happy to help you secure a much better price, with my only compensation being peace of mind that I have helped steer away a customer from Classic Africa.
Roccco is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 05:56 AM
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I am travelling with Wilderness Safaris and I know for definite that they are not involved in any hunting.
I am also travelling shortly with a UK agency called Wildlife Worldwide and I very strongly doubt they are involved in hunting either.
Kavey is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 06:12 AM
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Thanks for the warning about this thread possibly being deleted. I have copied and pasted it just in case that occurs.

Glad to hear that the company you are using is clean.

One other thing I would suggest to people, although this in itself is underhanded, is next time you book, ask your tour operator if they sell hunting safari itineraries, as if you are interested in such. I guess the problem is that even if they do not, in an effort to help you, they will likely refer you to someone else, or answer in the affirmative and just put their markup on someone else's tour.

Anyway, my upcoming trip will include some light investigative journalism. One of the problems I see is that the hunters have such deep pockets. I have read in the hunting trip reports that their gratuities to staff are above $1,000 USD, working out to possibly $100 USD per day just in gratuities. At those numbers, they probably attract the very best trackers around, as well as some of the finest guides.

Anyway, let's continue to work at this here and see who else is playing both sides of the field.
Roccco is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 06:50 AM
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What about e-gnu. Thats who I will probably use next year since they post such good green season specials and can put it all together for us. They also use the name of something like Greenlife or similar. Thanks. Liz
Mar 29th, 2004, 07:15 AM
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I think I may just have found one for you. Check www.savetheelephants.org. They tell of Green Hunting in Timbavati adjacent to Kruger. You dart the elephant. When the animal goes down you and the veterinarian move in. You have your picture taken with the elephant. Casts are made of the tusks. A tracking collar is put on and the animal is awakened. When you go home you receive a set of bronzed tusks and are then able to track "your elephant" daily on your computer. Check out Timbavati. The animal can then go on to live and breed.


JanGoss is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 12:43 PM
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I know this is my first long thread (after being mostly just a reader for the last few weeks) but Roccco, you have now got me fired up and on my soapbox.

Last year when we were looking for Tour operators for our Kenya, Tanzania trip, I looked at using Classic Safaris/African Safari Consultants as one of many operators to send me quotes. When visiting their website, I too discovered they were involved in hunting and immediately decided against using them.
It is unfortunate that people have to resort to killing these animals to give themselves a thrill and fill some void in their lives. I am glad to see that I have found a forum in which others are on the same page.

On a side note with all of this, National Geographic did an expose a while ago on illegal hunting, as well as canned hunts here in the U.S. They uncovered places where people can buy exotic animals to raise as pets or use in canned hunts (where most of the exotic pets end up anyway).

One of these places has a website which will also turn your stomachs if you visit it and see how these animals are put on the market for anyone that has the cash. Because of the documentary, the sick owners of the website now use the words "As seen on National Geographic" to promote the selling of these poor animals and try to make themselves look like it is something N.G. endorses. They say if they don't have it in stock they can get it for you or to just call them.

For those of you interested in visiting this website to see what these imported animals are subjected to it is, www.wildanimalworld.com

My husband and I always say that if we had Bill Gates' money or could win one of the big money lotteries we would put these people and others out of business and try to buy every single hunting license available in Africa to try and do our part in ending this.

We have just gotten back from our second trip to Africa where I sat in the jeep every day in awe of the animals and cannot understand how, when you look into their eyes, someone can take a gun and end a precious life without blinking twice.

divewop is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 12:55 PM
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It beggars belief that someone who is a vet and a conservationist can also be an avowed hunter. Scandalous in fact!

Ilee 2003 you can actually make your and our feelings known by cancelling your safari with the tricksters and booking it with someone else. It should make an impact. It may be too late to do this but it is worth a try. There are several other US operators you can book the same safari - Fish Eagle, Premier Tours, or through an African operator. No pressure so do what you think is convenient.

Roccco, doing something about this is going to be pretty tough as the US hunting lobby is powerful. Have a look at this from 2001 Born Free newletter:

Lions face new threat from hunters

Born Free?s Campaigns Manager Alison Hood responds to the news in last weeks Guardian that the Botswana Government are coming under pressure from the members of Safari Club International ? including the well connected George Bush Snr, Norman Schwarzkopf and Dan Quayle - to lift their ban on the hunting of lions in Botswana.

As the Botswana Government bravely sticks to its guns over the lion hunting ban, Safari Club International, and its prominent supporters such as George Bush senior, will hopefully have to lower theirs.

The introduction of the hunting ban in February was based on sound scientific data not emotion. There are genuine concerns over the future of lion numbers ? and the growing imbalance in the male/female ratio. Killing a ?trophy? male does not just necessarily reduce the population by ?one? ? the repercussions on prides and the rapid turnover of males as a result can have negative effects on reproduction, increasing the impact tenfold.

The lion, once abundant, is slowly loosing its foothold in Africa. The priority now should be to work with governments and local communities to conserve this species for the benefit of all ? not to line the pockets of the likes of Safari Club International.

All respect to Botswana for standing firm on this hunting ban. Surely Safari Club International should now show some respect for a decision that has been taken at Government level in a bid to help manage a lion population in a sustainable way.
Alison Hood

The cruel irony is that while hunting itself is despicable, it may actually help conservation in a few ways -
Firstly, it keeps the areas free of human and livestock which is the major cause of human/wildlife conflict in Africa. Secondly it keeps poachers and snares at bay. Thirdly, it opens up areas to tourism which were previously difficult to get to such as Ruaha, Selous, etc. Apparently hunting companies establish a network of roads in their concession areas which are eventually extended to non-hunting areas. Fourthly, several of the excellent professional guides were ex-professional hunters and their experience is handy when it comes to walking safaris. I am just hypothesising this and would like to know if this is true or not. Zimbabwe was very good at achieving a good balance between photographic safaris and hunting safaris. The hunting safaris still continue in Zimbabwe on private concession areas and it seems that they may be the only hope for Zimbabwe's rapidly deteriorating wildlife situation.

These benefits are however probably mostly minor and should not give the hunting companies any justification in maintaining their cruel sport. Unfortunately they get a lot of help from the African governments, some of whom most likely see hunting as a license to make a few quick bucks for themselves. I wonder how corrupt the licensing system is.

A few years back, Tanzania lost several prides of lion to feline distemper, yet hunting of lions still continues . Not a single resource has probably been allocated from the license fees collected to do something about this. So anyone who says hunting benefits the African country must be joking, it only benefits the hunters, the safari companies that organise the hunts and the politicians.

There also seem to have been several cases of illegal hunts - not impossible when the rewards are so high. Illegal hunts are no different from poaching. In africa, there cannot be stringent monitoring of hunts which must result in repeated abuses of the licensing system.

As fodorites we are stuck between two evils, the hunting lobby and the African governments, both powerful and hard-nosed. I feel the only way we can make a difference is by alerting potential African travellers of the operators to avoid in future.

Also thank goodness you will find that majority of the tour operators and African operators are decent enough to recognise that hunting is cruel and won't touch it with a barge pole.

So let's keep a lookout for those who hide behind a nice facade.

king is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 04:52 PM
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An interesting article:


MIDLAND, Texas ANIMAL PEOPLE, July/August 2000

An alert for American voters and humane educators everywhere appeared on May 21 in the 61st through 64th paragraphs of a 76-paragraph NEW YORK TIMES feature on the childhood of Republican candidate for U.S. president George W. Bush -- if anyone noticed.

reported Nicholas D. Kristof of Life in Midland, Texas, when George W. was a boy,

<`We were terrible to animals,' recalled [Bush pal Terry] Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush borne turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. `Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,' Throckmorton said. `Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow them up.'>

Kristof made plain that explicitly included George W. Bush, and that George W., the Safari Club International in 1999 for his support of trophy hunting, was the leader among the boys who did it.

George W. Bush, 54, apparently learned hunting and alleged sportsmanship the National Rifle Association way, from his father, former U.S. President George H. Bush. NRA vice president Kayne Robinson boasted at a members-only meeting in early 2000 that Bush, if elected, would be

That got some attention, along with the role of NRA executive vice-president Wayne LaPierre in raising $250,000 at a recent Republican Party fundraiser honoring Bush, and the Bush record as Texas governor of signing bills allowing people to carry concealed handguns and take guns to church, and barring cities from suing gun-makers.

Yet no one, not even Representative Tom Lantos (D-California), raised with reference to Bush the character issue implicit in having recreationally shot and blown up frogs -- or talked about the failure of humane education to dissuade Bush from cruelty which must have been known by his famous father, as the evidence would have been hard to conceal.

On May 25, however, Lantos and 20 other Representatives showed that they should've recognized the character issue by introducing House Concurrent Resolution 338. The Resolution, according to Lantos' press release, urges

Offered Lantos,

But the only people George W. Bush is known to have had a part in killing were the 135 convicts whose executions he has authorized during his five-and-a-half years as Texas governor. Bush mocked the executed killer Karla Fae Tucker's plea for her life in a falsetto, and reportedly giggled when asked by a journalist how he could send the executed Gary Graham to die, when Graham's court-appointed attorney was judicially admonished for sleeping through much of his trial.

DOPPELGANGER? If accused serial killer Robert Yates, 48, of Spokane, Washington, had been caught and convicted in Texas, be might have been among those whose killing by lethal injection Bush approved.

If Bush and Yates had been closer in age and geography, they might have been friends, sharing their love of church, baseball, and -- especially -- using their guns to kill small animals. Instead Yates grew up in Oak Harbor, Washington. An April 26 investigative report on Yates' youth by Jessie Stensland of the WHIDBEY NEWS-TIMES and SOUTH WHIDBEY RECORD buried mention of Yates' hunting in the l7th paragraph of 21.

Like George W. Bush, Yates evidently graduated to trophy hunting. But instead of blasting exotic species on Texas hunting ranches, be allegedly hunted young suspected prostitutes. He allegedly terrorized them, robbed them, and shot at least 18 of them at close range with a handgun. Yates shares his background as a teenaged hunter not only with George W. Bush but also with at least 42 other adults and 35 teens who have been charged with murder in recent years, whose hunting backgrounds have surfaced -- albeit often just barely -- in news coverage of their alleged crimes.

The WHIDBEY NEWS-TIMES and SOUTH WHIDBEY RECORD did not publish a letter by ANIMAL PEOPLE editor Merritt Clifton citing the statistics; discussing the traits that studies have found are often shared by hunters, serial killers, and child abusers; and noting that early involvement in legal sport hunting -- not just illegal animal torture -- also was in the reported backgrounds of convicted school massacre perpetrators Luke Woodham, Andrew Golden, Mitchell Johnson, Kip Kinkel, Michael Carneal, Barry Loukatis, and Evan Ramsey.

Press, public, and politicians who are just barely beginning to recognize the link between illegal violence against animals and violence against humans remain far from understanding the distinction between the inhibition about getting caught that discourages illegality, and the inhibition about causing suffering that George W. Bush's humane education teacher tried unsuccessfully to encourage."

From: ANIMAL PEOPLE, July/August 2000, p. 18.


--As long as guys like this are in power, animals in Africa and around the world do not stand much of a chance. Perhaps I am blowing this article out of proportion, but so much is made about how Saddam Hussein taught his sons how to be killers, but I really don't see too much difference in George Bush Sr.'s handling of little George W.

Perhaps the only difference between some of these hunters and people locked up for violent offenses is that the common criminals could not afford to blow $40,000 on a trip to Africa to expel their demons.

I do love how George W. doesn't miss a photo opp with his dogs, creating the false impression that he is an animal lover, when, in fact, he is a second generation butcher no better than Udai Hussein, at least to the animals that have suffered at his own hands and under his administration.

But, please do not let my politics get in the way of what this thread is really about, and that is to expose outfits like Classic Africa and African Safari Consultants.

And, slightly off subject, but not entirely, here is an article about a different form of hunting, allegedly by Prescott Bush, George W. Bush's grandfather:

George Bush . . . please return the skull of Pancho Villa

"Blest be the man that spares these stones,
And curst be he that moves my bones."
- Inscription on William Shakespeare's Tomb -

Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - January 15, 2004 - (ACN) One thing President Vicente Fox can do for the Mexican state of Chihuahua, while a guest at Crawford Ranch next March, is to make a polite request to his buddy, George Bush, to please return the skull of General Francisco Villa so that it can be properly returned to his tomb in Parral. The skull of the legendary Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa was stolen by the "Soldier of Fortune" Emil L. Holmdahl at the request of Prescott Bush, George's grandpa, and is now on display at the headquarters of the "Skull and Bones" society called "The Tomb" located at Yale University. Prescott Bush paid Emil Holmdahl $25,000 for the stolen skull in 1926. Prescott Bush, George Bush Sr. and George Bush Jr., are all members of the secret society.

The desecrator of General Francisco Villa's tomb located at the "Panteon de Dolores " cemetery in Parral, Chihuahua was Emil L. Holmdahl (photo), a USA professional mercenary and US agent of pre-CIA operations. Emil L. Holmdahl was born in Ft. Dodge, Iowa in 1883. He first enlisted in the 61st Iowa Infantry and served in the Philippine Insurrection. Later he joined the adventurer Lee Christmas in Honduras and fought in the Central American "banana wars". He then went to Mexico in 1909 and briefly served in the Rurales under Commander Emilio Kosterlitzky of the Diaz regime. Emil Holmdahl changed allegiance to Francisco I. Madero after the fall of Ciudad Juárez and joined General Francisco Villa's army as a captain. In 1916, he served as a guide with Pershing's Punitive Expedition that was chasing General Francisco Villa in Chihuahua. In 1926, while Emil Holmdahl was on a "prospecting and hunting trip" to Mexico, he was arrested for desecrating Villa's tomb. Influential friends in the US government, notably Prescott Bush and other precursors of the CIA, arranged for his release and he returned to the United States. Emil Holmdahl died on April 4, 1963 in Van Nuys, California.

There is ample evidence that Emil Holmdahl, along with an assistant by the name of Alberto Corral of Los Angeles, went to the Parral, Chihuahua cemetery on the night of Friday - February 5, 1926, opened the tomb of Villa and severed and stole his skull for sale to Prescott Bush, a member of the "Skull and Bones Society" based at Yale University. Most of the evidence is found on 1926 newspapers reports published on the "grave robbery". At least five newspaper clips are archived in the Pancho Villa Collection which is part of the West Texas Collection at Angelo State University.

On February 8, 1926, three days after the grave desecration, El Paso Herald Post published the headline "Villa's Grave Robbed" that details the circumstances of the decapitation of Villa's interred body and the arrest of Emil Holmdahl and Alberto Corral for the crime. The news clip outlines a sophisticated and well planned operation to steal the skull of Pancho Villa. The El Paso Herald Post news clip reports that the caretaker of the cemetery told Mexican investigators that an "Americano" was inquiring about the location of Villa's tomb a few days before the grave robbery. Chihuahua state authorities later arrested Emil Holmdahl through a description by the cemetery caretaker. The grave robbers left a note at the tomb in an attempt to throw off investigators. The note said that Villa's skull was on its way to Columbus, New Mexico, the site where Villa conducted a raid into US territory to recuperate a number of gold bars he had paid for arms and ammunition he never received.

The skull of Pancho Villa was in fact already on the way to El Paso, Texas and into the hands of a Holmdahl cohort by the name of Al Jennings for eventual turnover to a Frank Brophy who was an intimate friend of Prescott Bush at Yale University. A news article titled "US Investigates Holmdahl's Arrest" published in El Paso Herald Post on February 9, 1926 clearly indicates high level US government interference and pressure on the Chihuahua state authorities to release Emil Holmdahl. This was accomplished on February 11, 1926 and was reported in another news report by the El Paso Herald Post titled "Expect Holmdahl to Reach El Paso by Friday". It looks like the Bushes have a long history of manipulating USA intelligence covert activities and the secret "Skull and Bones Society" in New Haven is an intimate part of these operations.

Emil Holmdahl arrived in El Paso on February 12, 1926 according to Ben Williams of an organization in El Paso called "The Wednesday Group". Williams, in his memoirs, details the deal made between Emil Holmdahl, Al Jennings and Frank Brophy. Frank Brophy, working on behalf of Prescott Bush, paid $25,000 dollars for the skull of Pancho Villa. The skull is now displayed in a trophy cabinet inside the crypt-like headquarters of the "Skull and Bones Society" at Yale University.

It is extremely macabre to desecrate and steal the skulls of dead heroes of other countries, and worst, to display them as trophies. President George Bush needs to return the skull of Pancho Villa to its proper resting place. Hopefully this article can spark a campaign to have the skull returned to "El Panteon de Dolores " in Parral, Chihuahua.

Please, distribute this article among your network of friends and especially to Mexican-American students attending Yale University. If you live in Chihuahua, please send a copy of this article to Governor Patricio Martinez. There is time for the governor to send a request to President Vicente Fox before he meets with Bush at the Crawford Ranch in March of this year. "El alma de Villa te llora desde su tumba. "

The link to this article that includes interesting photos of both Pancho Villa and the alleged location of the severed head at Yale University are at this link:

I promise to lay off of Bush and get back to the issue at hand, but I was intrigued about the subject after reading about Bush Sr., Schwarzkopf and Quayle's lobbying effort to allow the hunting of lions in Botswana.
Roccco is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 07:24 PM
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Here is a reply I received from Classic Africa this morning.

Many thanks for drawing this to our attention. Our hunting company is a separate entity from Classic Africa, and is a very small business. We started doing it because several of our clients want to do both photographic and hunting safaris, and asked our advice on which hunting outfitters to use. So we did research and found outfitters that we believe (and their records show) are reliable and ethical hunting outfitters. We keep the two companies as completely separate entities as there are people who are opposed to hunting, and we do not want to offend them. Hunting is also conducted in completely separate areas to photographic safaris, so the information on hunting is completely irrelevant to anyone but hunters.

The fact is that hunting is an important component of eco-tourism in Africa. In the prime wilderness locations, hunters have been displaced by photographic safari operators, and that is exactly how it should be. Photographic safaris are the ideal and primary method of revenue generation from wildlife and wild areas. But there are many marginal areas where it is not economically feasible to operate photographic safaris, and hunting is the only wildlife and wilderness oriented form of revenue generation. For these areas it?s either hunting or it?s farming ? hunting is compatible with (and dependent upon) the presence of wildlife, farming is completely in competition with wildlife and destroys wilderness. And African countries are too poor to allow vast swathes of land to lie fallow and unproductive, they need to generate revenue from their natural resources. If wildlife can?t ?pay it?s way?, it will lose out to agriculture and other destructive land use practices.

There is also a natural process of evolution in eco-tourism, hunters are the pioneers and they establish conditions for photographic safaris to follow. Twenty five years ago nobody but hunters went on safari to Botswana. Today there are virtually no hunters and all photographic safaris in Botswana. Today only hunters are going on safari in Mozambique, if all goes as it should they will be mostly displaced by photographic safaris in twenty years from now. Having a passion for wildlife and an understanding of the importance of hunting in conserving that wildlife are not at all mutually exclusive. We cannot think of a single scientific based conservation organization in Africa that does not appreciate the importance of well regulated and controlled hunting in the survival and expansion of that continent?s wildlife. Not everyone likes it, but they recognize that it generates critical funds for conservation.

The slur that you found on the internet is unfortunate, but based on ignorance. Many people don?t like the concept of hunting, and don?t want to hunt themselves, and we completely respect their point of view. The reality as it stands though is that hunting is a critical component of eco-tourism; rather than pretend that it doesn?t exist we would like to use whatever influence we have to ensure that, where it does occur, it occurs in a manner that benefits wilderness areas and wildlife populations.

Anyway, we hope that this goes some way to explaining our position on a very controversial issue. Like most controversial topics there are people on both sides of the argument who are very hardline in their view, and can see no merit in the other perspective. We believe that our position is neutral, based on the facts, and in line with virtually all mainstream conservation organizations

With best wishes,
Pierre and Margaret
llee_2003 is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 08:21 PM
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SusanLynne, yes, call me naive I guess, but I was under the Pollyanna impression that it was all photographic safaris now. I thought that Africa, at least in a legal sense, understood the value of an animal - if not in my terms at least in terms of tourist dollars. So if hunting occurred, I imagined it would be illegal. But then I'm a dreamer I guess.
I do think it's different, the kind of hunting you are talking about in NH, animals that are not endangered and for the sole purpose of food.

Rocco, sorry you went to bed not knowing if you had support - next time don't fire off something like that and go to sleep! <G> I am a bit concerned about a lot of people pretending to their travel agency or camp that they want hunting because we don't want to spread a false impression and therefore make Africa think there are more tourist dollars in hunting. And the majority of these good camps will mark you as not exactly their favorite kind of guest. If you yourself, with your fearless Geraldo-self, can pull this off, then that's only one person and like a journalist, you can do your expose.

Of the camps I went to, one of them was rumored to once be a hunting camp - it was definitely not one now. We found this out partway through our stay and I don't think it was verified so I won't mention the name. But the way it came about was because the animals tended to be skittish of the Land Rover. I have heard it takes years to get an animal population to become unafraid of the vehicles - yet another example of hunting and photographic safaris being contradictatory.

Liz - did you see my response to your post on the other thread a while back?
Clematis is offline  
Mar 29th, 2004, 08:22 PM
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Jan, intriguing. Is it really about them being able to track elephants for their scientific purposes - ie, something they would have done to the elephant anyway? If so, this is very interesting.
Clematis is offline  
Mar 30th, 2004, 06:23 AM
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What an interesting reply from the safari company that also sells hunting trips; trotting out the same old arguments about how hunting actually supports wildlife conservation.

Perhaps it does in it's own way but, regardless of the fact, it doesn't really answer the question that underscores the issue for me: What kind of person is it that actually gains personal pleasure from proving that they can end the life of a wild animal? It fascinates and repulses me that people can hold in their arms a limp, lifeless body of an animal that was, only moments previously, living and breathing and roaming this earth, and feel that they have achieved something great.

It's not even as though they are proving their own strength or agility - they are being lead around by a guide who finds the animals for them and then shooting them with a gun from a safe distance.

Just screams of a perverted value system to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that it's wrong to kill animals for meat - we are at the top of the food chain in the same way that a lion kills an impala, I think it's OK for us to eat meat - though I'll not get drawn into that separate debate here.

But to kill an animal for one's own pleasure - blood sport - is just incomprehensible to me.
Kavey is offline  
Mar 30th, 2004, 07:06 AM
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Hi Clematis-
Yes I did see your post and I will know more when we get back from our trip to Botswana next month. Since its been 5 years since we were there, if I see the dramatic changes we saw in Kenya, I doubt we'll be going back. We leave on the 14th and return on the 23rd. After last year and our shock in Kenya, we are trying to keep an open mind about Botswana. I shall make a point of getting some Bush Tea while in Maun though, and just the thrill of being in a Mekoro on the Delta may overpower the lack of wildlife if that happens.
If we do go again, I don't think we'll plan it until November when they post the 'Green Season' specials on e-gnu. Would you ever consider March/April?
Mar 30th, 2004, 07:51 AM
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>>Our hunting company is a separate entity from Classic Africa, and is a very small business.

Hmmm...that's funny, looks like the same Pierre and Margaret to me. Yeah, I am self-employed and accounting purposes have a couple different companies, but I do not ever mislead my customers into unknowingly supporting something that would upset, no, SCAR them.

Pierre is a swindler who is plying his trade on both sides of the fence. He does not have the backbone to be upfront to his customers and tell them that he supports hunting and list the reasons why he supports it.

Personally, I would not be comfortable in booking a tour with such an individual.

Roccco is offline  
Mar 30th, 2004, 07:58 AM
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Classic Africa is "proud to be hosting the National Geographic Society" on their 2004 tours. Wonder what the NGS will think when they learn that Classic Africa is also proud to run hunting operations and that Pierre is proud to slaughter the beautiful animals that the NGS has come so far to see.

I cannot wait until I have a few more uninterrupted hours. This issue is worth losing a few nights sleep over.
Roccco is offline  
Mar 30th, 2004, 12:04 PM
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TTT for Rocco
Mar 30th, 2004, 01:31 PM
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Yes, the collaring and radiotracking does indeed help the scientists and researchers learn just how far the eles. go, whether they stay in the parks, and perhaps who they are associating with.

Check www.savetheelephants.org and click on maps. Then click on one of the elephant's pictures and you can see the map of where that animal has been.

Thus the green hunting perhaps gives the testosterone-depleted hunter the thrill he wants, but at the same time preserves a magnificant bull to go on living and breeding. The added benefit is that the researchers can learn from it.

JanGoss is offline  
Mar 31st, 2004, 12:15 PM
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Here is a copy of an email that I just sent to the National Geographic Society. I find it hard to believe that they would knowingly book with an operator whose owner has a passion for hunting down the beautiful animals that are already dwindling in number in Africa. If you agree with my stand on this position, please follow up with an email of your own to the National Geographic Society. www.ngs.org:

To Whom It May Concern,

I am not aware of the guidelines or philosophy of the National Geographic Society, but as a subscriber to National Geographic Exploer, I find it doubtful that the NGS would support the hunting of the few remaining beautiful animals in Southern Africa.

However, it is stated on the website of Classic Africa, that Classic Africa is "proud" of its "association with the National Geographic Society, for whom we will be operating Southern Africa tours as of 2004."

Just in case you are not aware, Classic Africa also has an alter ego in Classic Hunting Safaris. Please look at their two websites:

Classic Africa has completely attempted to hide the fact on their Classic Africa website that they support hunting, yet on their Classic Hunting Safaris website, they offer safaris in the very same areas where they sell photogrpahic safaris.

As a repeat visitor to Southern Africa, and subscriber to your publications, I am very disturbed that the National Geographic Society would conduct business with Classic Africa/Classic Hunting Safaris.

Please let me know of the National Geographic Society's position on this matter. Perhaps the NGS was already aware of this matter and chose to conduct business anyway, or perhaps this is completely new information to the NGS and it wishes to reconsider its relationship with Classic Africa/Classic Hunting Safaris.

As a National Geographic subscriber, I would appreciate a response to this email and the position of the NGS on this matter. Your attention to this matter will be greatly appreciated.

Roccco is offline  
Mar 31st, 2004, 12:27 PM
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Well written (and very calm and rational considering it's by our own dear Rocco!)

Kavey is offline  
Mar 31st, 2004, 01:11 PM
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,553
Thanks Kavey! Must be that I have Tylenol with Codeine running through my blood right now (do not ever attempt to run 19 miles through the mountains on two weeks training!)

Have a great time in Kenya!
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