npederse

I don't believe "disclosure" is needed. I can tell just from reading the trip reports who is an agent and who isn't.

The agents have given splendid advice to folks interested in Africa. I also think those that advertise/push are handled quickly and fairly.

thit_cho

Sandi, I was not suggesting that anyone traveled for "free," but I do think that some (and you are obviously, based on your post, excepted from this) take advantage of discounted "educational" trips (as evidenced by some recent proposed itineraries that have some new agents bouncing from camp to camp, including multinight stays in the Sabi Sands, which would be very rare absent discounted rates), and I think that I would have a much different view of a lodge and reserve had I paid $500 per night instead of $1,000 per night. I'm not suggesting anything sinister, but I don't see why someone wouldn't indicate that they paid less (and let the reader ascertain whether the discount colored the review).

I also don't intend to suggest that an agent should forego the discount (I would certainly take it if offered to me, say as a repeat traveler), but I think its fair (and valuable) disclosure (no different from a restaurant reviewer disclosing if she dined for free or if her newspaper paid).

That being said, I think that the recent excellent trip reports from some agents are excellent, but I was surprised when my question about "educational" visits and discounted rates was ignored -- I think its a fair question.

Michael

thit_cho

I also think some agents may be less willing to bite the hand that feeds them, and by that I mean, they may be less willing to criticize in a public forum a camp that offered them a discounted stay. I can't say that had I received a discounted stay that I would not have the same bias -- I think its natural.

sandi

Cute story. And know that owners/managers of properties do cruise around these boards.

About 4/yrs back I mentioned a particular property being on the expensive side. Not very very expensive, but when compared to the mid-range lodges - more bucks! Sure enough the owner/manager came back here with "we're not expensive."

In fact, they aren't expensive... it was only as comparison. Open mouth, put foot in. Oooops!

So, Michael, you're spot on... there are eyes everywhere... one never knows, does one?

ShayTay

After being on the Africa Forum for a while, I've been able to discern who is an agent and who isn't, almost always because someone else mentions it. I would hate to see the enthusiasm and expertise of these people disappear from the Board. I've never been approached by any agent on the Board and asked if I would like to use their services.

Africa is a unique place and those who venture there are a "special breed." I'm passionate about Africa and want to see as many people as possible travel there, especially first-timers. I would venture to say that the agents on the Board started this way; it's a passion, not just a job. Each one of them (as we all do) have an area or location that are their favorites and for which they are experts. My favorite areas may be different from theirs, so I appreciate learning from them. Thanks to all you agents and non-agents, alike!

teri714

As someone who is new to this board as well, i'm actually quite impressed with the professional integrity I've encountered on this board.

The Professionals who post here rarely, if ever, promote their own company over someone elses. I haven't seen it. Furthermore, those that do, are quickly "called out" on it, if you will.
As a matter of fact, I just figured out that one regular posters here was, indeed, a Professional, and you could have knocked me over with a feather. I thought this person had a great passion for Africa...Which also speaks to the integrity shown by the Professionals who frequent this board.

teri

luangwablondes

Instead of belaboring this, why not use a posting to list all the agents and one for operators that actively post here. So if someone is interested in this information, just direct them to the postings. Then it is over and done with. I see very little to comment about with the way the current and active agents are posting. IF there are a few not to be recommended, start a posting on that with the understanding it is the posters personal experience.

TurnstileTraffic

This is a problem that by and largely is unique to this particular (Africa) forum due to the large percentage of travelers that do use an agent to plan their trip.

We do recognize that many travelers, some who happen to be agents, have contributed immensely to this board. A clearer policy is in the works. Your comments, sent to [email protected], are always welcome.

Gardyloo

Provocative thread. Some thoughts -

I think allowing TAs or other travel professionals to identify themselves as such might be a smart move on Fodor's' part.

First, disclosure. It would be better for posters and readers to know that someone is a travel pro rather than not knowing. The vast majority of posters here are smart enough to know that TAs may well talk up places that give commissions, but reading it on Fodor's and actually signing up with the Fodor's-posting TA are two different things. Indeed, if I see a known TA recommending a lodge, my radar will be activated at once, rather than staying on standby if I think the poster is just Joe Bagodonuts, intrepid traveler.

The TOS here are clear that no liability accrues to Fodors or Bertelsmann if somebody gives lousy advice, so the issue is more moral than legal. When I recommend American Airlines over Air India I am not acting as an agent of AA, because no agency agreement exists. Likewise, if I'm a TA and recommend X cruise line or Y hotel chain, no agency agreement exists with the reader until the reader contacts me and says, yes, book it, Dano.

I started a (very, very) part-time travel consulting business earlier this year owing to some expertise I've developed in a couple of travel niches, and also because friends and family members for years have been saying that I shouldn't "give it away" on message boards like Fodor's (or over too many bottles of wine.) Just today I signed up with a big national "host" travel agency to act as one of their (several thousand) home-based independent TAs. My main use of my TA status will (likely) be to use the access I'll get to GDSs to help with travel planning engagements, but while I may sell the occasional cruise or tour, it won't be my main stock in trade. I would love to be able to "advertise" on Fodor's, but I will continue to keep it opaque here as long as my read of the TOS prohibits "advertising."

Changing the TOS might require more active moderation of the boards than Fodor's may want to undertake, so there's a cost involved. In the meantime, though, there are hundreds of regular posters who are all over covert "advertisers" like a cheap suit as it is, so cynicism will continue to be a fact of life hereabouts.

But I'd welcome Fodor's taking a hard look on how travel professionals relate to the boards. Who knows, maybe there could be a sub-forum where poster/TAs, guides, etc. could identify themselves and provide contact info (but not promotional materials) - and maybe Fodor's could charge them a small fee for the privilege of posting their names. Or maybe not - none of want Fodor's to turn onto a Craigslist of travel.

"Outing" oneself as a TA would not be risk-free. If a Fodor's reader books with a "participating" TA learned of through Fodor's, and the trip goes sideways, then the TA is at risk for the same kind of negative feedback on Fodor's that a buggy hotel or delayed airline would receive. After "he done me wrong" appears a couple of times, said known TA will be hard pressed to find more clients via Fodor's. Might serve to cull the herd. (This is the Africa board, after all.)

ShayTay

I've just learned that Rocco has been removed from the board, due to this thread...unforgivable! Here's a message to the Fodor's editor who removed him: reinstate him!!! He DOES NOT SELL on this Forum and his expertise is enjoyed by all. We all know when someone like that doofus in Morocco advertises and they are properly removed. Removing someone just because they happen to be an agent is CRAZY! Who's next: Sandi, Selwyn, Julian, Eben? Editor, if you continue do this, then the Africa Board suffers. Africa is a unique travel destination and the expertise of the TAs is valuable. If they are selling, we'll know it. If they are sharing, we'll know that, too. Editor, learn the difference!

Grcxx3

ShayTay - I am shocked that Rocco has been removed!!! He's a huge asset to this board and - altho I had suspected - I never really knew until this thread that he was an agent. Knowing that changes nothing. He has always given valuable - and fair - advice. What a shame!

steeliejim

To the editor:

I just returned from my first ever African safari (to Zambia), in large part thanks to the Fodor Africa Forum and Rocco Morelli. I've only been visiting your site since this spring, stumbling onto it after being lost in a maze of confusing information from camp operators and travel agents. I thank you so much for providing this avenue for people like me to help us sort through the morass of information out there. It was your forum that led me to Rocco, a frequent poster on the Africa forum who, as it turns out, is travel agent second, but, first, someone with a great passion for Africa with a tremendous amount of first hand knowledge which he has been most willing to convey to "newbies' like me.

I would hate to see you do more than some minor tweaking of your posting policies re. travel agents. It was the thread started by a "tripster" (who I had never seen on this forum before) in which he posted an article negative on Zimbabwe (which now seems to have disappeared), that started this trouble. He personally attacked Rocco, calling him a "shill" and Rocco, naturally enough, responded. I would have, too. Then a Peterman, who I also had never seen post before exacerbated the problem. He raises a valid issue, namely policy re. travel agents identifying themselves, but he, also, struck me as someone who has a hidden agenda in the tone of his posts.

Rocco has been one of your greatest resources, and if he can be called a "shill," it's only for Africa and its people, not any one destination (although he is partial to Zambia, and I now can see why). I understand you have blocked him from posting. I do hope that will be recinded, as Rocco, and others who happen to be travel agents, but also to give greatly of themselves and their first hand experiences, have given us readers, and sometimes posters--and Fodors--so very much. Your forum is by far, a richer, and more informative source for Rocco and people like him. And, believe me, we can sort out those who give phony information and who are the real shills, and we are not shy about speaking up. Frankly, some dialogue and even disagreement about travel issues add interest and richness to your forums, with the caveat, of course that the discourse should remain civil. Please give us that much credit to sort things out, for the most part, among ourselves.

As for "tweaking," I feel no need for agents to id themselves as such. I would suggest that you set up a space for posters' profiles. I've seen this done on other boards. The profile space would be the place for readers to find out the background of posters and to provide contact info. should posters be willing to do so.

In my case, I did my own due diligence as best I could (and I expect others to do the same), when Rocco commented on various places he had been to and their +'s and -'s, I just do (and did) some additional research to get second and third opinions to back up what he had said. And, I can assure you, had I not found what he had said to be true when I returned from my trip, I would certainly be posting it on the forum.

And, when someone calls someone else a personal name, such as tripster did (and it looks like you unwittingly helped him succeed in his objective--blocking Rocco), that should be grounds for immediate removal. Personally, I wish that the thread started by tripster had remained, since reading the different comments provided insight on an important issue--namely, should we consider going to a country that is ruled by a despot, but whose people are helped by foreign dollars.

One other important benefit offered by TA's, like Rocco who are not tied to chains of camps: helping independent, family-owned camps stay independent and not be swallowed up by the big chains. These independent camps can't compete with the big advertising budgets of the chains. If Fodor's and agents like Rocco can help them compete (and, of course, they have to deliver the goods or they--the camps and the agents--will be soon found out) and stay independent, we are all--including Fodors--much better off for it.

So, to summarize, if you err, err on the side of fewer restrictions, not more, set up profile space for posters, block troublemakers who get personal and PLEASE bring Rocco back.

Thanks for your consideration,

Jim Jones
[email protected]

santharamhari

I think this whole issue is blown out of proportion......blocking the accounts of people like Rocco, is really silly......i think Rocco along with the many regular contributors, have provided more indepth information regarding various Africa travels that may not be available to most people, including every major guide-book in your neighborhood Barnes&Nobles. If we are all of a sudden going to be blocking accounts, i dont think this place would be the same......

I also understand, Marksafari's account has been blocked because of his support to Zimbabwe...honestly, i feel this is ridiculous....

Why are we so insecure of the whole thing all of a sudden?

My recommendations to the moderators/editors would be to re-instate both their accounts (and anyone else's account that has been suspended today, that we are not aware of) and just remove this thread all together.....

Also, bear in mind that.....fodors can make probably the best guide books available using all the information provided for free on these boards by all of us combined.....

Hari

Pat_Rick

I agree that Rocco should not be removed. Do the editors read this posting? Maybe we should send e-mails to [email protected] to voice our displeasure with this decision.

This board would not be the same without Sandi, Julian, Eben, Rocco....

I have never heard anyone solicit business here.

Pat

steeliejim

The above is the email I sent to the Fodor editor, but I goofed in stating that the thread on Zimbabwe, which started all of this, had been removed. Eyes are getting tired I guess. Doesn't alter any of my thoughts re.the subject of TA's and Rocco, however.

thit_cho

Steeliejem wrote far more eloquently than I can on the subject, but I agree with everything he wrote about Rocco, and this forum will be a much weaker resource, and one that I will visit less often, if Rocco is unable to contribute. I know Rocco only through his many posts, and to me, he is foremost a supporter of Africa, and, I believe, its his passion for Africa and Zambia that encouraged him to become an operator (which I believe is a side business and a hobby, and not his primary vocation). He is the most generous contributor to this forum.

I will send the same to the Fodors editor.

Michael

LizYoung

While I suppose I can appreciate efforts to shelter me from snippets of English that may have been written by a travel agent, I have to say that as a 36 year old woman; I feel very confident that I can read a trip report or other such post and discern for myself if I am to absorb the information or pass on its context. I'm not going to beat the drum of the first amendment by any means but I would say that I am wholeheartedly unprepared to offer any information about my status (TA or otherwise) because some memebers of this board lack the necessary skills to differentiate between advertising and other forms of reporting. I will not enter the "sandbox" and participate in this board on a level befitting that of a group of first graders. I am extraordinarily confident in the capabilities of the other members of this forum to discern for themselves which bits to enjoy and those that should be avoided for whatever reason.

As for Rocco being removed from this board, the mere idea of such an act is ridiculous. At no point in time has Rocco posted a solicitation for business but rather has generously donated tremendous amount of information and eye-witness accounts which only further enhance this forum. If Rocco were to write, "Hey you have to stay at Mala Mala...it's the only place worth staying at in all of South Africa..." I would, as with every post on this forum, take
his words with a grain of salt and, as an adult, discern for myself if Mala Mala were really all that great. If I return from my trip and tout the workings of the AAC, Giraffe Manor, or any other element of my trip will I then be scrutinized because my language simply IMPLIED that I MIGHT be a TA? It's a very slippery slope once you start deciding HOW we should be able to report our experiences and knowledge. I, for one, am completely disinterested in watching this forum deteriorate to such a level.

Peterman - get a dog you can command and parent and leave your paranoia off the forum and contribute your experiences so that we can call benefit and make decisions for ourselves.

Let's move on from here and get back to business.

santharamhari

Adding to my prior post, i need to mention that Eben's account has been blocked also....this is ridiculous....Eben has a phenomenal knowledge about East Africa and has been a fantastic resource, including updating readers with up to date information, all the time!!!

Should these people continue to be barred.....i dont see any point in continuing to read these boards, as what do i want to read otherwise?.....if everything is taken out of context and mis-interpreted....what is left to be discussed??? what camps serve what cuisine? who has the most comfortable goose-down comforter? who cares????

Just a simple request to the moderators to re-instate all those accounts that hv been deleated....thanks.

Hari

kimburu

Without getting into a lot of other stuff, surely I am not the only one who thinks that IN GENERAL Peterman's suggestion that operators should "disclose" is totally wrong-headed and that in fact his suggestion of that and including business email addresses achieves exactly what Peterman appears to be opposing? If operators have to disclose and include their email addresses aren't they going to start appearing on the forum purely and simply IN ORDER TO do that?

Clematis1

I will email the editor but also wanted to say there that it would lower the quality of the Africa board to ban such wonderful posters as Rocco and Eben. They have both helped me here on the board with advice and they knew I was working with a different (not on this board) travel agent. Neither one has ever tried to solitict my business, they have only been helpful posters. I have been a reader and poster here for about four years and there have been periods when there was a reduction in traffic. But I could count on Rocco to post something interesting and informative about Africa. His lively posts have enriched this board. Eben has also been very helpful with his experience in East Africa.

I personally don't see a problem with how Fodor's ran it before, with no blatant advertising allowed. However Fodor's chooses to alter their requirements for TAs, the main thing is please do not block them because the board benefits tremendously from their posts.

Please reinstate Rocco and Eben.