AKR1

Ilkeliani appears to be just outside the Talek Gate on the bank of the Talek river- but no where near the Mara North Conservancy. Which conservancy are they in?
http://www.go-safari.com/Masai%20Mar...araApril09.jpg
http://www.sunsafaris.com/maps/area.aspx?lngareaid=44

micmic

This is indeed a very sad incident but in any case I don't think it should be a reason for making the hiring of armed rangers compulsory. People should weigh the odds and decide accordingly. I guess it's much more probable for someone to get killed in Nairobi or Johannesburg or New York, should visitors to those cities be required to hire armed guards ?

One selects and pays for a private campsite in order to enjoy privacy. If I wanted armed guides I would had chosen something else.

karn

micmic - I am not sure I agree. Think of it from their viewpoint. Kenyan park officials are responsible for such a large territory,and when something bad happens, they get a lot of bad publicity. They can't really afford to let people decide whether or not to have an armed guard. Kenyans need the money tourism brings them, and can hardly afford the resulting decline in tourism dollars that comes with such crime and bad publicity. Not to mention they have a big heart, and it is horrific for them to have to remove bodies and such. So if one's rangers could not be everywhere at once, and totally protect visitors, it seems reasonable to require the hiring of armed rangers, as one would not want death and injuries to visitors in the Mara, whether international or national. Here in the US, we are so accustomed to having everything our way, we sometimes think it is our right to "do it our way". However, when we are guests in another country, IMO it is no longer our "right" to "do it our way" and we must accept the ways of the county we are visiting, rather than to debate their decision/argue our position. If this happened in the U.S., the rangers would probably just put a big gate up and make the area off limits-no need to ask people to hire armed guards then! That said, I must agree with canadian_robin that 2 guards against 10 armed bad guys may not ensure the desired outcome.
Thanks to all of you for sharing your opinions, which I have thoroughly considered.
Sandi-thanks for your insight into the operations, clarification and descriptions-I had no idea how thing worked.
AKR1-thanks for all of your well thought out points! I so appreciate hearing your opinions!

micmic

karn, my point was exactly that the requirement for armed guards would HURT rather than protect Mara's tourism. By making it compulsory 1) you would alarm people because they would think that this is an especially dangerous destination when in fact it is NOT 2) you would increase the cost of camping, and for many campers this would be a deal-breaker 3) you would drive away campers who desire total privacy.

Meanwhile, if someone wants to have the armed guards, they would still have that option.

Think about it: How many national parks in the world (heck, how many PLACES in the world) absolutely require you to hire armed guards in order to stay in them ? The mere thought of it is ridiculous. Is Mara the most dangerous place in the world so that it would have this requirement ? How will tourists feel about it and what would be the effects in Mara's economy ?

I'm rational enough to think about probabilities and still want to visit Mara. If however a couple of armed guides were to be imposed upon me... I'd skip Mara and go somewhere else. The Serengeti is just across the border...

sandi

... the cost of the KWS Rangers is minimal, less than pocket change, for those using these remote sites. If the rule was that all who book these sites "have" to use Rangers, so be-it. Otherwise, these sites may well be closed down for backpackers, budget travelers or those who simply prefer to camp.

... and if the bandits don't cause havoc in the Mara, who's to say they won't in the Serengeti? or anywhere else?

canadian_robin

The cost of spending a night on a special campsite in the Mara Triangle for a non-resident is as follows:

Park entry fee per person: US$60/24hrs
Special campsite fee per person US$25/24hrs
Foreign vehicle fee Ksh1000/24hrs

So, it cost my DH and I ~US$183 for each night that we spent on a special campsite in the Mara.

According to the Mara Conservancy website, the cost of "full night camp security" is Ksh2000 or ~US$25. Since the Conservancy recommends hiring two guards, I assume the Ksh2000 is for two armed guards. The MC website notes that food and accommodation for the rangers is not needed, and rangers are transported to and from your campsite.

Given the US$183 cost of our staying overnight on a special campsite, the US$25 for ensuring our safety seems pretty reasonable. However, I believe that when we need armed guards to protect us, it is time to go elsewhere.

As for the Serengeti....it was in the Western Corridor of the Serengeti that we were chased off our campsite in the night (in 2009) by poachers (we think, but they may well have been bandits), so I am not certain that it is a safer alternative. Robin

atravelynn

This is terribly sad tragedy.

spassvogel

sandi - you are right as to the bandits raiding elsewhere - as they did in 2009 (to my recollection) when one of the Singita venues in Grumeti fell victim).

It can happen everywhere - Europe, States of African country.

micmic

Yes, that's what I said as well: It can happen everywhere. So, should we require armed guards for EVERYWHERE ? Can one show that the Mara is significantly more dangerous so that one should take extra safety measures when visiting it ? Or is this just a knee-jerk reaction ?


Here is a (partial) list of crimes commited in USA National Parks:

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/...-in-parks.html

I don't have a similar list for Kenyan parks but it could be compiled. Then one could also find the average number of people who camp in those National Parks per year and determine the comparative risk. If the risk in the Mara (or other Kenyan parks) is not higher than other popular camping destinations around the world, then I fail to see why armed guards should be required in Mara but not other parks. It's really very simple.

AKR1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/79...n-tourism.html

FrankS

I found this article, and it seems to relate to the conflict of peoples in this area that have resulted in bloodshed.

http://geoconger.wordpress.com/categ...h-of-tanzania/

""First published in The Church of England Newspaper.

Tanzanian religious leaders have denounced an outburst of ethnic violence that culminated last month with the murder of 17 people. However, Anglican and Muslim clerics have been quick to distinguish the clashes from the recent violence in Nigeria and have denied there are religious motives behind the wave of killings in Northern Tanzania.

Competition for scarce resources and a “vendetta” culture lay behind the murders in Mara, the Rt. Rev. Hilkia Omindo of Mara said, noting that criminals are not confined to any one ethnic or religious group.
""

more

FrankS

Note: That the camp attack in the previous article is more recent than the 'attack' discussed in the article. But I believe locals attrbute the camp attack to the same conflict.

micmic

I thought I should update this thread. Last August we visited Mara and we stayed at a private campsite. AFTER you pay and enter the park, you are informed that hiring at least two rangers is OBLIGATORY. The rangers stay in the camp from about 6pm to 6am, and you have to pay about 20 euros each. My understanding is that no receipts are issued, and I'm not sure how legal this is.

Anyway, we were determined not to have 2 strangers in our campsite for essentially all of the time we would be spending in it. We had booked a private campsite and private we wanted it to be. We went to the headquarters and met with the warden and we told him that we object to this for various reasons, one of which was that we did not have enough cash (and withdrawing cash in Mara or in nearby villages is next to impossible). The warden tried to persuade us that we needed the rangers and said that he woul provide them even if we had no money and we could pay them with MPESA when we would return to Nairobi. We said that we should be refunded because we payed for a private campsite and two rangers in it wouldn't make it private anymore, not to mention that we only found about the requirement AFTER we entered the park. After a lot of talking, the warden agreed to let us camp by ourselves, as long as we would sign a paper saying that we are aware of the dangers but we still don't want the protection of the rangers. This is what we did, and we had a great time. I have to say here that the officials in the headquarters were very nice and kind during all our conversations. One of them (who shall remain unnamed), during a private conversation, told us the BLOODY OBVIOUS, the same thing that I've been touting in this thread from the beginning: That there is no real need to hire rangers, that there have been only 2 incidents in more than 9 years, and that we should sign the paper and proceed on our own. The rangers themselves were fairly typical, but everytime we would meet one and he asked were we stayed, he would remark "oh, you are the ones who refused protection!". Clearly dissatisfied by the loss of income they incurred.

In any case, I suggest to everyone thinking about staying in a private campsite in Mara to check beforehand whether it is still possible to circumvent the requirement for hiring rangers. Otherwise, just stay in campsites outside the park or public campsites. It is not worth it to pay for privacy and receive two strangers in your company, who essentially offer NOTHING AT ALL.

philw

I guess everyone can make their own decision but I think it is wrong to say that they add nothing at all. Attacks may be very infrequent but, if one did happen, having two rangers on site woudl come in handy ....

sandi

... and then we'll read about another attack in the Mara. micmic was lucky, but there are still bad guys out there and luck is known to run out, anywhere.

Yes, attacks are rare, but when they do happen everyone gets their panties twisted and the complaints can be heard around the world. So the Reserve comes up with a solution that doesn't cost much and someone (as above poster) doesn't want to adhere.

The Rangers' comment "oh you're the ones who refused protection" had nothing to do with their income, rather the safety of their visitors.

I stayed at a camp, as the only guest... with security and other to when the Rangers appeared to escort me from dinner to my tent... didn't even know the were about the site and gone by the time I awoke.

Not much different than Trip Insurance... you purchase it and hope not to have the need, but if a situation arises that you do, you're glad you had it. To each their own, but I'd say "take/pay for the security" for your own peace of mind.

spassvogel

I absolutely support sandis sentiments here.

I would never turn down the advise of locals when it comes to safety and security!

The outcry is huge and predictable if something happens. There were in fact more than 2 incidents - to my knowledge there was one at ETIM, one at NAIBOR, one at ILKELIANI, one at the priv. camp site - plus these we even haven't heard of.
Paying for more safety particularly in an foreign counrty and totally unfamiliar surrounding is money well spent and it supports the ranger's families - doing something good and straight.

You were lucky and nothing happened - imagine the other way around......

micmic

Please: I WAS NOT LUCKY. I would be EXTREMELY UNLUCKY if something would happen. This is simple statistics. There are so many tourists camping in Mara's and other parks' private campsites every year, and how many incidents exactly did we have ? I posted above a list of incidents in USA national parks. Should rangers be required there for campers as well ? "Incidents" in an similarly populated area of any country and city, are likely to be the same or more. Serengeti is right next to the Mara (in fact they say that poachers use to enter Mara from Serengeti), and no rangers are required there. Is there a different degree of danger in Serengeti ?

This reminds me of the recent incident in Cape Town. You can suddenly see all over the internet horror stories about how dangerous it is to visit Cape Town. No matter whether millions visit Cape Town each year and have a great time. No matter whether some of the people writing the horror stories live in statistically more dangerous New York areas.

Calo

<i>"Serengeti is right next to the Mara (in fact they say that poachers use to enter Mara from Serengeti), and no rangers are required there."</i>

This wasn't the case on our last trip when we were required to have an armed guard with us in the Northern Serengeti on the day we were north of Bologonja at the Mara River.

I would not hesitate to seriously consider safety recommendations/requirements when travelling in my own or (particularly) in any other country where I am not as familiar with safety issues. What bothers me is that you were asked to pay <i>after</i> entering the park. How were you informed of the added, obligatory payment after you'd already paid to enter the Mara?

BillJ

I guess I am destined to see large animals only in the zoo. I will never convince DW to go to Kenya now. Too Bad!

kimburu

Yes, that's right, the Tanzanian side is also on fairly high security alert. But it's all a scam to get money off us there too. ;-)

Somebody needs to do more reading instead of spreading rumour and innuendo about scams. My understanding is that the reason that this was big news - and locally in the Greater Mara area too, where there is pretty much no media - is not only that it was murder this time, but that it was one of a series of sometimes quite violent incidents (hopefully the last now there is security on both sides of the border). It is not illogical to assume after the success of these raids from the gang's or gangs' point of view, that they would be very tempted to try again. What do the camp managers and others who have lived there for years think about the armed rangers? Do they share your view micmic? It would be interesting to know if they feel they are being extorted.

Does anyone know if the same gang is assumed to have committed two or three of these raids?

Another thing to consider is that there are still other places in Kenya where you are required or strongly advised to have an armed ranger guard because of the risk of banditry. People were not even allowed into the northern section of Tsavo until very recently because it was thought too dangerous for tourists. If you think Kenyan authorities are overreacting, you are possibly unaware of this aspect of it. They have always erred on the side of caution, which is why it has been a relatively safe country for us tourists. Guides are always up on the hot spots and I've been told more than once that I couldn't go somewhere I wanted to because it was 'not safe'. While I suspected they were overreacting, given how little I really know about Kenya, as opposed to its wildlife and camps, I think I would be pretty stupid to cancel that guide and try to find another one who would tell me what I wanted to hear.

Anyway, if we're jumping to conclusions, that's the direction that I would jump in.