tuskerdave

Hi again- I went ahead and sent a copy of this article with my email to: National Geographic Society.
You never know-maybe-just maybe we will hit on something.
Thanks, David

Denbasking

<b>Hey TuskerDave</b>, you have successfully attracted and created an opportunity for a small group of people to do a good thing! I am not very informed about the topic but it has been beneficial for me to become more familiar with this subject as all these issues are so interwoven and there are many ongoing similar struggles. I do not have enough RAM available to study another subject however I have learn a little by default while working on the suggested actions.

Truth be told, I thank you as I think working on and focusing somewhere else is really helping me at the moment as I am stuck, as in paralyzed, in a wicked non-performance mode and the appalling <b><i>planned extinction</i></b> of these elephants is so atrocious and seems to be a bit of an emergency. Your post has been on my mind and the distraction is a gift to me actually as this is a more appropriate tragedy to direct some fury rather than on my work issues in the same realm, where for sure fury would be a bad thing.

Trying for a second to this see this as a plausible business scenario I thought this to be an interesting twist on <i>planned obsolescence…</i>how exactly does that work with wildlife and what is the new improved next thing? I have heard of <i>planned extinction</i> works being done for some of the naughtier mossies [even that is controversial!] and also know folks are researching methods to eradicate invasive plant species all over the world which is an obvious good thing, but, I am at a loss on this one.

Alarming seems like an understatement if these are the facts. Oddly, from my limited exposure to the leadership styles of many [of course not all] politicians across the African continent; *sigh* I really have no problem believing this is the truth. In my small world, the issues I have been following closely since late 2005, I note this is a pattern; *alarming* is a typical decision making approach and result!

David, I fear distraction so I best not click on your name, I thought you lived somewhere on the lower half of the African continent? I could be all mixed up but the last post I recall from you was horrible news about the murder of one of your friends or neighbors that ran a guesthouse for tourists – am I right? :-&lt; That is what made me think you lived there but now see you live in the USA…

<b>TuskerDave wrote</b>: <i>Not all that much to say. Much has gone on in my life these last couple of yrs- mostly personal. Much of that not so good. But I am doing very ok now-thanks</i>

I wish you more of that *doing very ok* and thanks for bringing this information more directly to my attention. I am sure I would have scanned this article but I would have tried to stay in *my bubble* on the subject and hopefully not absorb to much more retched news than I already do pertaining directly to my work and life.

Thanks Dave and everyone for all the action suggestions, it is nice to be able to do something! It is so frustrating not to be able to do anything or have any impact on far too many problems.

Den

Denbasking

<font color="#8a4b08"><b>Bill_H wrote:</b></font> <i>I'm not as anti-hunting as most of you and generally stay out of these threads, but if the facts are correct and they are really allowing the shooting of 3 of the last 5 breeding males then this is absurd and should be stopped.</i>

I’m in the same place, Bill regarding hunting for human survival and health [?] of an animal population if that is what the experts advise. Believe it or not, I am in a grey area on <i>some</i> of the complex poaching situations as well and find some of the decisions made by MP’s and local politicians’ weak in vision and it will be a lose-lose situation for years to come. But sport hunting? I am not going to track down this information but I am aware fellow human beings partake in this and am willing to learn their thoughts on this if they make it easy for me.

I note on this thread (http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35147896) a poster, cox2 is a hunter and posted a link to this website (http://www.gksafaris.co.za). I went to the site but *i tawt i saw a DEAD putty cat, i did i did see a dead putty cat* I then made a hasty exit. Perhaps he/she could post *cliff notes* in text only on the topic with enlightening information.


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<font color="#585a8b"><b>PixelPower wrote:</b></font>

<font color="#585a8b"><b><i>I'm not very positive about the future. We're completely out of balance.</i></b></font>

Sadly, I feel the same. My little plate is overflowing with more challenges at the moment than I can personally handle. I say this not for any haughty reason, I say this because I am not performing well and I do not know that I will be able accept crab crawling baby steps without even a tease of a forward leap in the future. This is not like me, the first time in my life I sense I am losing hope. I am really scaring myself -- normally my happiness and optimism can get on my own nerves. I would just love for me and some folks that I work with to be able to successfully complete something, make a checkmark one day – done! Alas, these are not even my stumbling blocks to forge really, I think I need to redefine success and done. What a spoiled coward I am being. I have it very good; I must gain strength somehow and carry on with a fresh approach.

<font color="#585a8b"><b><i>Too many people, wanting too much. No matter who they are. Locals wanting some money, pro hunters wanting more, gvt officials wanting most. </i></b></font>

I agree. There seems to be an overwhelming preponderance of MP’s [or insert all possible political positions] that believe *just being one with a title* is the actual job and feel the *serving the people* part is a duty one performs with a casual wave of the arm. Consulting experts, researching, or soliciting input from anyone on matters, certainly not from the peasants [their term] they are serving and representing -- it does not seem to be necessary or expected. Most are powerless anyway and it is a luxury, really, to be able to take a stand and engage.

<font color="#585a8b"><b><i>Homo horribilis.</i></b></font>
Indeed.

Denbasking

<b>A <i>few</i> Serious Musings from the Seriously Unqualified</b>

If one just <b>randomly selects and casually deconstructs</b> any of the paragraphs in that article and pretending at this point we believe this has been given serious thought from more than a person with a title At a glance, I still see only missing links and thorns; where are the roses? Or even a potential bud to nurture for the future? I ask the more informed -- what am I missing?

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>“Documentation seen by The Namibian shows that the Ministry of Environment and Tourism had issued three hunting permits to six conservancies in the Kunene Region for shooting three elephant bulls in the current hunting season.” </i></b></font>

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>“Documentation seen:</i></b></font> Transparency is a good thing…

<b> ~ Laypersons musing</b>: Do they have documentation of the names of the actual hunters as well?

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>The Namibian shows:</i></b></font> Open communication with the press, also good.

<b> ~ Laypersons rant</b>: The Namibian looks like they enjoy freedom of the press, but I wonder if it is the case for follow-ups. Even if I am not involved in something I am annoyed by the lack of follow-up articles reporting on the actions, hence accountability of who touted whatever and the possible resolution of issues. These articles make my head feel like it has been hit with a 2 by 4 and more than half the time I am left wondering…

<b> ~ Laypersons reality check</b>: My comment is made in support of the hard working members of the Fourth Estate in various countries on the continent of Africa realizing they are much more frustrated than I am! When the selections of newspapers and all forms of media communications are owned and controlled directly by the Government, the Opposition Government and/or privately owned by a powerful current or retired MP and when your office and home computers are randomly confiscated, thugs beat you up and throw acid in your face, and your peers are being murdered – follow up articles may not be the best thing to do from that perspective. But wow, how things are rapidly changing! I sure look forward to reading *the rest of many stories* as they safely can report them.

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>The Ministry of Environment and Tourism:</i></b></font> Does anyone know if the strategic and long-range plan (surely they made one, right?) with the beneficial impacts of this decision for the local communities, environment, and the tourism industry is available to peruse? Pro, Con, Alternative or even a *grossly exploit them for profit before the kill em idea* category list with the breakdown of the thought process available? Perhaps we will see some of this released and printed in next week’s edition of The Namibian.

<b> ~ Laypersons musing</b>: I am dubious that these conservancies *cough* are as controlled by the local communities as stated [politicians I would believe &amp; a local elder or two]. But if true, are their plans available how they intend to spend, as PB broke down for us; the miniscule amount of profits from the sale of these elephants. An accounting of how exactly the money is spent, like with receipts [that may be going too far] and all the good that came from it? I also doubt that the real local communities’ citizens have much time for awareness or input in the matter.

<b> ~ Laypersons rant</b>: It seems to me just the marketing changes alone for all in their Tourism Industry that have been promoting these ellies will be a cost burden far beyond the income of all three. Further financial losses as Dr. Fox mentioned WILL damage Namibia's international reputation as a tourist destination as indicated by the posters on this thread. This will only be for a short time as memories fade quickly but hardship will be felt by many. I can imagine Namibian's in the business of selling safaris incurring extra costs in time and morale trying to explain the logic behind this decision to their clients and sounding chipper doing so. UGH!

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>six conservancies: </i></b></font> This reminds me of <i>collateral damage</i> and other such smoke &amp; mirror terms. Thesaurus: <font color="#216d78"><b>
Conservancy</b></font> -- The careful guarding of an asset: conservation, husbandry, management, preservation. See keep/release.

<b> ~ Laypersons epiphany</b>: Cool, I can do this too. I’m an astronaut!

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>for shooting three elephant bulls:</i></b></font> * begin whispering* Is it also taboo to teach, learn, consult an expert in this field, and discuss the facts regarding the Birds and Bees of elephants? *end whispering*

Or is it better to follow the recent example of one infamous leader and just *take a shower* or in this case *kill the potential future* and just wait for the shocking and unexpected results of these actions so all can continue to protect this glorious and highly regarded state of ignorance, I mean innocence?

<font color="#216d78"><b><i>The current hunting season:</i></b></font> As in right now? August through some date in 2008 now? Can something really be done about this? Is there still time?

End sad rant. Pole sana

I wish all the best to all the honorable politicians and leaders working hard.

I wish all the best to the Last Desert Elephants.


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I have to believe that Namibian, along with outside organizations and individuals involved are working hard applying pressure and being very creative trying and will hopefully resolve this.

But if not and Fodorites can really assist and there is still time…

Dave, do you or anyone else directly involved in this have access to or know how to obtain a list of the <font color="#216d78"><b><i>individual hunters’ names</i></b></font> participating in this affair? Could one obtain the names before the hunt through reservations, licensing or whatever?

I honestly think a <b>direct approach</b> to each hunter might be worth a shot <b>in this case</b>.

~ Contact the hunter directly. What is their story? Are they living on the same planet and can they be educated?

~ If not, the person has a family that could be enlightened. In laws could be good in the mix.

~ Next, the Social Pirara [sp?] method; the person has neighbors, friends, personal and corporate business associates, memberships, and perhaps has a wing named after them where this could be a conflict of interest etc.

~ <b>And there is always <font color="#df0101">YouTube</font>!</b>


If you happen to see this Leely, I am beginning to wonder if my visions of elephants surfing the waves off the coast of Gabon in the Congo thread have something to do with this topic!

jgardner

Snik-

I actually disagree with your suggestion of preventing the behavior in the country where people come from. I just don't think that countries have the bandwidth to deal with these types of issues. It is much easier to just prohibit the behavior in the first place. I also suspect it would be shaky legal ground to try to convict somebody of something they did in a foreign location. It is out of the jurisdiction to begin with. Just a few thoughts on the matter.

My own personal belief is that some hunting in specific locations and under close scrutiny can actually be a good thing. But there are many situations where I don't believe this to be a good thing, and this story is one of them.

tuskerdave

Hi-and WOW!I am really surprised at this feed-back here.Getting up at 230am every day doesnt help me take this all in
I am in USA not far from BOSTON.
-One issue at a time-baby steps here
Lets see if we can cause some havoc or at least let as many people as we can know that Namibia's TOURIST/PARKS peoples are allowing the taking of 3 of 5 BULL ELEPHANTS.Thats all there is-5! It is not about taking 3 of 5000 or 50,0000 its of 5.The other numbers dont matter here now. The issue is its in Namibia, its all but 5 BULL ELEPHANTS and they are allowing 3 to be killed.
They really should be baby sat and more protected.
Any ways I am very very tired.I may pop in from time to time this eve till 9pm EAST TIME.
THANKS, DAVID

PredatorBiologist

It is great to see the active response.

Just to avoid confusion and to keep people informed who are going to lodge a complaint with the authorities, this issue is specific to the desert-adapted elephant. Nambia actually has probably over 15,000 elephants and is considered to be a country with an increasing population. The desert-adapted elephant is the same species (not even a different sub-species) as the typical African elephant. However, to anyone who has seen them it is clear that the desert-adapted elephants have developed a unique culture with many different habits than typical elephants, which allows them to survive in the harsh conditions. This specially adapted population is what is at risk because the elephants in this culture is a very small number and taking out 3 of 5 bulls could doom this unique way of life. Further, individuals in a species at the edge of the range often are the ones forced to adapt to unusual conditions and thus over time can become some of the most important populations for developing genetic diversity within the species which is a good reason to conserve this specific elephant population.

atravelynn

Thanks TuskerDave. Truly appalling. Will make some contacts to indicate my disgust.

tuskerdave

hi lynn,if possible post the contacts?
then maybe we could all do the same as you.i will be missing in action from aug 8th till sept8th-i may be able to check in a long the way-dont know.
thanks
david

desertelephant

Hi there all. thank you for your strong support in this matter. i run elephant-human relations aid in namibia. this issue is much more than just about hunters, their egotistical intent is a debate on its own. this is about the misuse of a natural resource behind the smokescreen of sustainable utelization, for political gain. massive pressure needs to be applied to the government for them to realize their short term gain will have long term effects on tourism. please do all you can, as i can only do so much alone.thanks

desertelephant

ok,just skimmed through some of the posts, and think i should add some info to clarify the issue. the Ministry of Environment and Tourism has issued 6 permits on the desert elephants.this is when there is a maximum of 20 large bulls left in the whole region. 3 of these permits are for the southern region, where there are only 3 bulls left. from sept2006 to sept2007 12 bulls have already been shot as so called problem animals, shot as trophies. the predatoresearch post gets the point across perfectly. i will post more info on the our website to give more info.
www.desertelephant.org

i really appreciate all your help, dave, predator guy, and everyone
joe

Denbasking

Thanks for touching base desertelephant. Saying thank you for all your work seems like so little as I know it must be very difficult beyond my comprehension.

I see the direct results of misuse of power, ego, corruption, with some family friends losing land from *smokescreen of the day* casual decisions in EA. Which is why I related much to this story as it is up close and personal to me with land, animals, water, people and homes…trying ideas but I think lose-lose from weak leaders weaknesses.

Anyway, do you have a suggestion for a direct action that would be helpful to you for this particular emergency?

Seems many are working away on legislation etc. Do you have folks working on a direct approach with involved participating parties? Some have pointed out that the hunters and middlemen may be from the USA, do you know this to be the case? The world really is very small and connected add big money makes it smaller and one can find many connections and perhaps allies for your cause that have access to an ear. Would this be a worthwhile tactic along with the others? I am still fuzzy on the actual timeframe.

Directly stating needed actions I think is the next step in how one can help you at this point.

All the best, Den

Denbasking

Hi Joe.

Your second post and mine hit at the same time. I see with the second post you have a website listed and I will look there first thing in my morning as I am not able to do one more thing tonight.

Thanks again for the follow up.

Den

Denbasking

Hi our Predator guy I just read through Joe's second message and caught his note to you -- thank for keeping us WELL INFORMED as the man directly involved said! That is very cool for us.

Matt_from_England

From my understanding of the situation, having read a message from Joe, is that the 4 elephant bulls have already been shot dead. Will await his confirmation.

Matt

cybor

Nothing to add here to all the well thought out comments.

Although I normally don't like to get involved with local politics in places that I'm not familiar with, I will make exception here and send a measly email to the above and African Geographic.
Doesn't hurt to try.

Abbe(sp.)/pippa/divine,
Try to be more original.

PredatorBiologist

Looks like 5 bulls have now been killed with one more to go.

http://www.desertelephant.org/news.php

divine54

what a shame!

supports my suspicions in view to CITES.

it's absolutely disgusting

div

Leely2

Unbelievable.

MyDogKyle

This is tragic. I'd started daydreaming about Namibia lately, but this puts such a sour taste in my mouth, I don't know. Just horrific and sad.