RickMck,

Well, isn't that a nice request! I've never thought about the interesting and unusual start and then finish to Safari #1. I took copious notes on everything of that first trip in one of those hard cover journals because I wanted to preserve the memories of the once in lifetime experience. I've transfered some excerpts to Word here and there. You've given me incentive to finish the job!

Quote "GeoffG,

Hope you have not had too many no tips, which would indicate a poor experience."

Only once. That being said i do live in a country where tipping is only considered for service beyond what is expected.

Also, after building relationships with some guides I have provided Tee-shirts, trousers, boots etc for their children. Clothing does not need to be new. Clean used clothing is gratefully accepted.

Geoff.

Intersting that daltond has not replied to his post. I think his post is arrogant.

Scott

PS...As an American I provide the world(Africa expecially)close to a 20% tip everytime I get paid.

Lynn,

I, too, have a nearly full hard-cover journal of that first "trip of a lifetime". But I AM going back. And I'll be bringing another of those journals with me for the second trip of a lifetime... I hope there will be more to follow! Looking forward to seeing that first report of yours...

rick

So as I see it most people disagree with me but a few agree. So this proves that there is something out there. I think Shumbas post sums it up pretty well.
I am sure that I simply got some backs up so automatically there is resistance.

Some cultures are not into tipping, that is obvious. It does happen a lot I don't care what anyone says. I will even tell you right now that many local guides know this as well and I have a few friends who will gladly admit this to me in person (local guides). On a subconcious level the demographic makes a huge difference as has been said in some posts.

Scott are you typically thick or something? Oh yes, the world revolves around America, the time zones must be all the same. What a stupid comment to say that I have not replied to the post. You do not even have to say where you are from and I would have guessed. Sorry to all the other Americans out there as you guys have given me far more money then anyone else. I do not have to be diplomatic in life anymore because I am out of the industry, do you know what a free feeling that is. I love now going to America & Europe on holiday. I really do have my say these days. I can't really on Fodors because the thread would be deleted or something so that is why I was as 'nice' as I was.

I also did not want to turn this into a pink/grey thing if you know what I mean hence me using the term local which could really mean anything.

Another fact. I have had a guest ask me a bird. I gave the answer. At the exact same time a local guide gave a different answer. The guest automatically believed the local guide - why? I suppose it was because he had lived in the bush his whole life and I had grown up in the city, was it demographic. Even though this guide obviously did not know the difference between a lion & hyena track. He had grown up in a rural area with cattle, very different then a bushman running around hunting for food in the Kalahari!! Straight away I showed the guest my birdbook and guess what... I was right and the guest knew that this other guy had just been proven wrong and he knew himself!

fyi - local managers get tips!

Oh and Scott well done for "PS...As an American I provide the world(Africa expecially)close to a 20% tip everytime I get paid" - how do you do this hey? Does the money go into back pockets? Maybe you are helping with the new 'industrial colonisation' of Africa. I wish I were you, such a nice guy.

Daltond "So as I see it most people disagree with me but a few agree"


Daltond,I don't think that people agree or disagree with you,they are just telling you about their experiences,at list that is what i did in my answer,base on having contact with over 20 guides and trackers in the last 6 years.

I don't argue that what you say does not happen,it just didnt happen to me.



Scott,do you really believe you are saving the world ??

Paco.

Amazing response in such a short time. A more realistic topic than what people realise.

I too was in a position like daltond for many years. I am a very experienced field guide and specialist botanist who has worked his way around various camps and lodges in several countries (I consider myself a "local" in my home country) It pleases me that so many people have not felt sorry for their guide and tipped according to service and experience which is theoretically how it should be.

However I must agree with a lot of what daltond says as I have witnessed it first hand. Some countries are worse than others too.
I have listened to guides telling interesting facts about their lives but I have also heard the most horendous lies and "hints" to guests that they are hard done by and certainly trying to gain sympathy. Since many of these guides were colleagues and friends I knew their true situations. I have worked in camps where we were a team of 12 or so rangers and I also knew that there was no discrimination within the team e.g. we were all issued the same "kit" (uniforms, binoculars, field guides etc) yet some of the guides purposely wore their oldest most tattered uniform and left their binoculars in their rooms so that guests would feel sorry for them and give them another pair of binoculars when they left (these would of course then get sold) It got to the stage where the General Manager had to step in to stop this behaviour.

Another valid point daltond makes is the fact that guests always believe the guide who grew up in the bush as opposed to me who has a botany degree when it came to identifying a tree?

nyamera states "are you an expat living your dream in Africa and the “locals” are the citizens of the country?

Don't kid yourself nyamera, the expats (city boys as they have been offensively been called by tourists)have done huge amounts of work trying to improve the guiding skills of "locals" who grew up in the bush without the proper schooling they would have received in a city. Some of these guides are illiterate yet they are exceptional in their fields and most of them would not hesitate giving credit to the "city boy" who helped them achieve their goal. Yet the perception of the overseas world is that expats are just in it for fun? The fact that they are passionate conservationists doesn't even enter your thought process. If they had the choice do you really think they would be putting up with your irritating and repetitive questions and comments on the game drive? No, they would be in the conservation field which is where their passion really is but unfortunately they do not get this opportunity because they are not judged on merit and qualification anymore but instead on the colour of their skin.

One last thing before you all jump on the race issue, I am a non-white who has been fortunate enough to be given a good education. I still lead specialist botany excursions in my free time. The guiding industry has burnt me out just like daltond and I urge you to judge guides on their skills alone and I really hope that when you do get "Mr feel sorry for me" that this post would have helped you see his true agenda.

Hi Paco

You are right.
I do hope though that some others may come forward with more instances that have happened to them.

Wow burntout

Thanks for that one. It is something that happens a lot.

The binoculars thing. Do you know how many pairs of excellent binocs I have? I always carried a pair of Swarofski. I did not buy then from a shop or get them as a tip. I purchased then on pre-order from a local guide in.... I have done this on many occasions. I simply used to spred the word that I wanted a pair of Zeis,Swarofski, Lica etc. and usually within a few weeks I would be able to purchase a pair for a fraction of their true value from a local guide milking the tourists. In fact I think I should open up a second hand shop and get a name out there in the guiding industry and buy & sell 'used' binoculars, cameras etc. The sad thing is that the people that I purchased the binocs from probably still do their drives with their old worn boots, binocs with only one lens that works and old tattered bird book form 1995!

Hi Daltond

Very interesting topic that I am sure will get many people thinking
I think I could give some helpful insight as I am in the industry but also travel quite a bit around Africa, so can see it from all sides really.
I have had many situations so similar to yours, most insulting one having being asked a question by a guest, given my answer, and then heard them asking a local guide the self same question. He happened to give the same answer as myself and then I got the 'approving look'. I was so offended at the time, but looking back I pity the fool who was so ignorant of my skills and probably ignorant about the entire environment around him.
As for tipping, you hit the nail on the head, I need not say more.
Kavey - sorry to be blunt but the story you found inspiring was designed to attempt to take you for a ride - I have heard stories such as these, many many times.
I wish these guys could spend their time more constructively, rather than pleading poverty and trying to fund their brick house or whatever it is they are funding.
As a guest on a vacation surely the last thing you want to hear is how hard people work, how hard their lives are and so on, being on a vacation indicates that you have deserved some time off after working yourself? Brings me to the next point - each and every person has had a different upbringing with their own difficulties, being it financial or other. As Shumba stated many people perceive white locals as 'comfortable' etc. Would you as a successful person appreciate races from other parts of the world as seeing your life and success as having been handed to you on a silver platter, whether true or not?
I doubt it as no one ever knows unless they have experienced it themselves!

Emeraldblaze, I knew someone would try that line on me but actually, that wasn't the case. Firstly, the guide didn't volunteer any information about his family, we asked. Secondly, most of the detail came AFTER we gave him his tip and had left the camp (on the drive to the main road) so there was no incentive for him to ham it up in order to get a tip. The tip had already been finalised and given. Thirdly, he wasn't the one that asked us to give him a lift anywhere, that was the camp manager. We were happy to oblige and when we reached the drop-off point asked how far it was to his place. He told us and we offered to drop him nearer or directly there. This is why we met his family and saw his home and the materials he was collecting to build an extension.

Whilst I do appreciate that there are many conmen out there I think it's a sad world indeed when people stop giving the benefit of the doubt or paint every person with the same brush.

As for the black / white thing I see Daltond finally admitting was his real question (rather than local or non local) one of the highest tips we gave was to a white guide in Botswana who came from South Africa. The tip reflected his skills and the experience he gave us.

Kavey
Good for you if you were not taken for a ride, suspect that this is a rare occurrence.
As for it being a sad world, well sad but true, just being realistic. Read the tusker report and see what the world has come to.

Good comeback Daltond...am I thick or something. No need to apologize for me....and thanks for calling me a nice guy. You mention in your intial post that this may hit a nerve. I would be careful how you respond to peoples reactions to your post. By posting this in the first place is a clear indication that you wanted discussion on this topic. Seems to me that you have not totally left the industry. What is your 9 to 5 job?

Why did you become a guide? It burns me when I hear people complain about the jobs that they stepped into on their own will. I travel over 100 days a year, do I start posts in forums about that?

You asked "questions to guest" and now you are getting answers. Like it or not.

Scott

I am glad I am getting answers.

As for becoming a guide. I love the bush. I also have not complained about being a guide but about unfair discrimination in the industry that has cost me money. Many people on earth complain about discrimination but when I do it is a problem? Why don't you give me that 20% instead to pay me back for my losses, it's the right thing to do.

I would like to ask you a question now and please answer. After reading this thread, it is obvious that this discrimination happens. The only argument will be about how much it happens. I can say this because some of the postings have similar stories to me and where there is smoke there is fire. So I do not care if in your opinion it happens only 1% of the time or 99% of the time, do you not agree that if it does happen, is it wrong?

Daltond, that Q wasn't aimed at me, but I'll answer it. Absolutely, discrimination is wrong whether it happens 1% of the time or 99% of the time. Also, whilst I've not experienced the sob-story, tattered clothes, old binoculars, never see my family thing I can well believe it does go on. In any industry there are easy marks and I guess where there are easy marks there will be unscrupulous individuals who will take advantage.

It's up to an individual to decide whether to lower himself to the same level and play the same game or retain his dignity and self-respect but take the financial hit that results.

Daltond,
People from all over the world read the posts on Fodor’s and for most ”local” means something other than ”black”. You’ll be better understood if you use that word. I don’t recognise <b>anything at all</b> in what you describe, but then I haven’t been to South Africa. I’ve never even seen a white guide and I’ve never heard a “sob story” <b>from a guide</b>, so I can only theorize about what you’re telling. There’re some white guides in Kenya, I’ve discovered here on Fodor’s, but when I look at their websites they’re owners or co-owners of exclusive safari companies. Maybe some guests think you’re some kind of owner and you don’t tip restaurant owners? You also say that you’ve had some fantastic tips. Maybe that was because the rich guests thought you were someone like them and that to them a normal tip would be peanuts? I’d like to hear some of those so-called “local guides” tell their version.

Burntout,
In what countries have you been working? In Kenya, a foreigner can’t get a work permit for a job that could be done by a Kenyan. It seems strange that you as a very experienced specialist should be doing the same job as illiterate people. I could understand if you’d got a job as a teacher at some guiding school or something, but in Kenya there lots of highly trained citizens who can do that as well. I suppose, “it doesn’t even enter your thought process” that there are tourists (not those that live on Scott’s planet where people choose their jobs) that have to put up with irritating and repetitive questions (or much worse) in jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with their passions and therefore just can’t feel sorry for someone working very close to African wildlife having to put up with guest that are stupid, but at least in a good mood most of the time. Even if you got a job in conservation, unless you are fortunate enough to study wildlife in some remote place, there’s a big risk most of your job would be dealing with stupid and irritating people. There are many, many more highly skilled conservationists than there are jobs in conservation in Africa. What colour are you that prevents you from getting the kind of job you want?

BTW, I don’t like the concept of tipping at all. It’s a disgustingly arbitrary way of paying people for their work. But things being as they are I tip what’s expected (first asking different members of camp staff) so that I don’t interfere negatively on people’s planning of their economy and a little more because I want to be popular. Who the L am I to judge how people do their job?

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