Professionals selling Massai Mara - SAFETY issue
Nov 15th, 2009, 12:54 PM
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Professionals selling Massai Mara - SAFETY issue
Where are the professionals who sell and promote camps in the Massai Mara but not reacting to the safety issues which were raised recently?
1) Don't you know anything? Which means you don't know about the safety issues at the destination/camps you promote?
I am not talking about "normal" incidents which occur around the World. I am talking about robberies where obviously camp staff were involved and the managers simply didn't care!
2) You have not started own investigation by at least requesting reports from camps which were involved?
3) You know what happened but refrain from posting due to "loyalty"?
1) is sad but 2) and 3) is irresponsible.
SV
1) Don't you know anything? Which means you don't know about the safety issues at the destination/camps you promote?
I am not talking about "normal" incidents which occur around the World. I am talking about robberies where obviously camp staff were involved and the managers simply didn't care!
2) You have not started own investigation by at least requesting reports from camps which were involved?
3) You know what happened but refrain from posting due to "loyalty"?
1) is sad but 2) and 3) is irresponsible.
SV
Nov 16th, 2009, 03:45 AM
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atravelynn
I would consider it "ethics" when those who promote camps on this site also WARN if there is something terribly wrong with safety and security for guests at these very same camps. It might be life-saving.
Obviously money making is far more important than morales.
safarimama
Now if I were openly selling these venues I certainly would try my utmost to gather information - including executing a so called "fam trip" to confront certain people with statements made here - and if camps don't comply with "my" expectations in view to a honest and sincere collaboration I would definitely cancel these.
marshal
Right. THX for your support.
I think only if these camps feel pressure from their promoters they change their attitute regarding being responsible for guests safety and security.
Generally speaking - the missing outcry by fodorites who have been listening to some promoters here shows there is not only ethics lacking on seller's site. Might it be the case that the lack of ethics only come to mind with those who have suffered?
Sad...........
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
SV
I would consider it "ethics" when those who promote camps on this site also WARN if there is something terribly wrong with safety and security for guests at these very same camps. It might be life-saving.
Obviously money making is far more important than morales.
safarimama
Now if I were openly selling these venues I certainly would try my utmost to gather information - including executing a so called "fam trip" to confront certain people with statements made here - and if camps don't comply with "my" expectations in view to a honest and sincere collaboration I would definitely cancel these.
marshal
Right. THX for your support.
I think only if these camps feel pressure from their promoters they change their attitute regarding being responsible for guests safety and security.
Generally speaking - the missing outcry by fodorites who have been listening to some promoters here shows there is not only ethics lacking on seller's site. Might it be the case that the lack of ethics only come to mind with those who have suffered?
Sad...........
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
SV
Nov 16th, 2009, 06:43 AM
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I have definitely emailed my operator with concerns and copied the trip advisor posting by Tract0..I want to know if they knew and what are they prepared to do to insure safety amongst their clients.
I am deeply concerned and although still prepared to visit Kenya may change the area I am in.
I will post anything I receive from the tour ops for discussion.
SV, I applaud you for posting this. As we all know danger can lurk in our own back yards, but to travel so far at not inexpensive prices, I want to feel there is someone trying to protect me and my family. I cannot imagine the horror this family went through.
I would be doing my best to get it on "60 minutes" since they seem to enjoy their travels to the Mara.
There is bound to be someone on this forum with connections to media. I don't want to destroy the tourism in Kenya anymore than you, but does murder and rape need to take place before any officials get involved??
Why not try to reclaim security now and not wait until it is too late? Definitely would hurt rather than help Kenya to push it under a "carpeted rug" and turn away from any negative publicity. Its out there now; someone needs to get a hold of it!
Trac0, if you are reading these posts, please know that we appreciate your postings on Ta and Fodors and hope that your family is doing well. Having been attacked in Vic Falls (but managed to release from the grasp) I know the damage it does to one's soul. I continued on with a great trip, but was always looking behind me. The guide took full responsibilty for leaving me alone for a quick minute and the lodge owner immediately went to the police.
I can't think I'd ever go to a camp where the owner treated you as badly as they did.
Maybe this bit of publicity - and the other forums will cause these owners to rethink their policies and thoughts of safety.
Good luck to you and your famiy, and I know I will be keeping track of this along with SV.
FP
I am deeply concerned and although still prepared to visit Kenya may change the area I am in.
I will post anything I receive from the tour ops for discussion.
SV, I applaud you for posting this. As we all know danger can lurk in our own back yards, but to travel so far at not inexpensive prices, I want to feel there is someone trying to protect me and my family. I cannot imagine the horror this family went through.
I would be doing my best to get it on "60 minutes" since they seem to enjoy their travels to the Mara.
There is bound to be someone on this forum with connections to media. I don't want to destroy the tourism in Kenya anymore than you, but does murder and rape need to take place before any officials get involved??
Why not try to reclaim security now and not wait until it is too late? Definitely would hurt rather than help Kenya to push it under a "carpeted rug" and turn away from any negative publicity. Its out there now; someone needs to get a hold of it!
Trac0, if you are reading these posts, please know that we appreciate your postings on Ta and Fodors and hope that your family is doing well. Having been attacked in Vic Falls (but managed to release from the grasp) I know the damage it does to one's soul. I continued on with a great trip, but was always looking behind me. The guide took full responsibilty for leaving me alone for a quick minute and the lodge owner immediately went to the police.
I can't think I'd ever go to a camp where the owner treated you as badly as they did.
Maybe this bit of publicity - and the other forums will cause these owners to rethink their policies and thoughts of safety.
Good luck to you and your famiy, and I know I will be keeping track of this along with SV.
FP
Nov 16th, 2009, 09:02 AM
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SV, what does your friend's TO/TA say about this (the friends that are going in Dec) and what does your TO say about this to you as I recall you are going to Naibor in April?
Also, in another thread you mentioned to me that you doubted very many TO's read this forum or others, if you are right then they would not know about this, if it was not made public (as Paul and Trac said it was NOT made public).
I have just emailed Daniel (my TO that we went with in May 2009) to see what he knows about this incident, I'll post back on this board once he gets back to me.
Also, in another thread you mentioned to me that you doubted very many TO's read this forum or others, if you are right then they would not know about this, if it was not made public (as Paul and Trac said it was NOT made public).
I have just emailed Daniel (my TO that we went with in May 2009) to see what he knows about this incident, I'll post back on this board once he gets back to me.
Nov 16th, 2009, 09:47 AM
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Lynda
Our friends are pending means unsure whether they should go.
We ourselves as well - but most probably shift to another destination.
My TO is trying to find out what was/is going on.
Regarding the doubt - I found out that there are some profs posting here as e.g. kiliwarriors, a wilderness agents from US (name?), I believe "sandi" is a TO as well as probably safarimama. No confirm about the latter two.
It's not about making it "public" by the victims. It's about investigation by the TO who post here and use fodors as kind of channeling promotion of camps and destinations.
BTW - If I fell victim to such a horrible incident I for sure would use any means at hand to make it public. There are loads of magazins and travel series on TV as well as consumer info series which will appreciate serious information.
Obviously particularly Americans are very much aware and interested whether their government warns in order to protect American citizens. Therefore I would have expected the same from American TO being honest and inform on incidents like the one which is posted here.
Obviously double standard as soon as the own pocket is involved.
SV
Our friends are pending means unsure whether they should go.
We ourselves as well - but most probably shift to another destination.
My TO is trying to find out what was/is going on.
Regarding the doubt - I found out that there are some profs posting here as e.g. kiliwarriors, a wilderness agents from US (name?), I believe "sandi" is a TO as well as probably safarimama. No confirm about the latter two.
It's not about making it "public" by the victims. It's about investigation by the TO who post here and use fodors as kind of channeling promotion of camps and destinations.
BTW - If I fell victim to such a horrible incident I for sure would use any means at hand to make it public. There are loads of magazins and travel series on TV as well as consumer info series which will appreciate serious information.
Obviously particularly Americans are very much aware and interested whether their government warns in order to protect American citizens. Therefore I would have expected the same from American TO being honest and inform on incidents like the one which is posted here.
Obviously double standard as soon as the own pocket is involved.
SV
Nov 16th, 2009, 05:51 PM
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Nov 16th, 2009, 08:51 PM
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Since my company was mentioned let me be VERY CLEAR.
We do NOT use FODORS as a communications medium. In other words, when I hear about things happening in Africa I do not run to FODORS to share the news. Nowadays I rarely visit FODORS anyway.
When safety becomes an issue we communicate to our clients direct and not on public forums. I assume most other companies do the same.
Thank you.
We do NOT use FODORS as a communications medium. In other words, when I hear about things happening in Africa I do not run to FODORS to share the news. Nowadays I rarely visit FODORS anyway.
When safety becomes an issue we communicate to our clients direct and not on public forums. I assume most other companies do the same.
Thank you.
Nov 17th, 2009, 03:29 AM
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Thank you climbhighsleeplow for your honesty to state your companie's policy.
Despite you think others act the same it doesn't make it right.
If you do not use FODORS as communication medium how would you call your posts? What sense makes it to post at all?
Of course a forum - any forum - is meant to exchange vies and opinions and it's natural cause IS communication.
I visit a travel forum not only in order to give/receive advise on venues and destinations.
Which alone is fine.
But a forum becomes valuable IF one gets also information on safety and security or better the lack of them.
Openly communicated safety issues don't only serve the readers but also enhances the credibility of the promoters of destinations. IMHO
Sad that the professionals don't see that advantage.
SV
Despite you think others act the same it doesn't make it right.
If you do not use FODORS as communication medium how would you call your posts? What sense makes it to post at all?
Of course a forum - any forum - is meant to exchange vies and opinions and it's natural cause IS communication.
I visit a travel forum not only in order to give/receive advise on venues and destinations.
Which alone is fine.
But a forum becomes valuable IF one gets also information on safety and security or better the lack of them.
Openly communicated safety issues don't only serve the readers but also enhances the credibility of the promoters of destinations. IMHO
Sad that the professionals don't see that advantage.
SV
Nov 17th, 2009, 04:08 AM
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One more thing CHSL
I assume you got the info on the incident(s) here on fodors (as NONE of the camps communicates such incidents openly!) which made you request details from your collaboration partners in Kenya, right?
Wouldn't you consider it kind of "feedback" to those who gave you that info to inform on the details and/or further incidents?
SV
I assume you got the info on the incident(s) here on fodors (as NONE of the camps communicates such incidents openly!) which made you request details from your collaboration partners in Kenya, right?
Wouldn't you consider it kind of "feedback" to those who gave you that info to inform on the details and/or further incidents?
SV
Nov 17th, 2009, 06:04 AM
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This was sent to me this morning by a TO in Nairobi who said KATO was "happy" with the way the incident was handled and sent me a copy of Naibor's Incident Report below..
I wanted to share this as I am deeply disturbed by the different accounts (i.e no one was hurt - help immediately arrived, etc.)
Understandably the camps would not want negative publicity,but for me, I will never willingly go somewhere where not JUST a burglary took place, but from Paul's postings, physical attacks on children of all beings!. That leads me to believe more injury could have resulted if for some reason a guest decided to defend themselves.
Just wanted to share what I have found out and what "SV", I think was looking for:
Incident at Naibor Camp:
At 23.35 on Wednesday 7th October, 4 – 6 individuals entered into Naibor camp in the heart of the Mara Reserve.
All of them went to the manager’s tent and fired 2 warning gun shots into the air before entering the manager’s tent. Jamie and Sophie, the managers were taken to the office and forced to unlock it for the thieves to take a laptop, camera, mobile phone and some petty cash. The manager’s radios were also stolen which made communication between all the tents difficult. (there are guest radios in every tent) The thieves then told Jamie and Sophie to lie still and not to move. Jamie waited a few moments before jumping in the car to drive to Intrepids camp where there is a permanent armed guard ranger station.
The thieves then came across 2 askaris who had come to see what was happening and fired 2 more warning shots into the air before breaking into tents number 3, 4 and 5 reprimanding the guests and stealing possessions. One couple had their passports stolen and the other two couples had money, phones and other possessions stolen. The exact details of what was taken is still to be confirmed. Only one guest saw the gun but they did all see the machetes the robbers were carrying. No guests were hurt.
There were six askaris on duty and one of the askaris went to Little Naibor to reassure those guests. Two askaris went to Rekero the camp next door to help. Rekero radioed the Intrepids Rangers who then met Jamie en route.
Three askaris came to the office to see what was happening which prompted the robbers to fire the second two warning shots into the air. These askaris then hid in the bush when the robbers fired the warning shots. They re-emerged as soon as the incident was over.
The management went to each tent to reassure guests and give them refreshments. Everybody went back to bed after a short while. One couple in tent 7 slept through the entire incident.
The whole incident took less than 20 minutes from the time they first arrived.
Anthony Cheffings, one of the owners of Naibor was informed of the incident at 00.15 and immediately called the Sector Warden at 00.20. The Sector Warden is based at Intrepids and an ambush was set up immediately and was in place by 00.45. The Senior Warden was then called.
Ranger force from Park HQ was in camp at 2.00am, to reinforce local area rangers. Police OCPD (Officer commanding police division) from Narok was here at 4am and local Tourism Police Unit here by 6am. TPU assisted with statements and police abstracts and all guests were processed and left on time for the scheduled departures.
Anthony Cheffings called Lewa security at 6.45 to organise bloodhounds to be ready to come down to the camp to track the robbers. A charter with Tropic Air collected the dogs and they were on the ground at Naibor at 9.45am.
There were 12 guests due to leave today who have left on normal services. 8 guests should have stayed on a private charter was organised to fly them out.
One couple decided to stay and the other couple have been moved to Shompole.
There is a group of three coming in today who have been informed about the situation and they are happy to continue with their plans as normal.
I wanted to share this as I am deeply disturbed by the different accounts (i.e no one was hurt - help immediately arrived, etc.)
Understandably the camps would not want negative publicity,but for me, I will never willingly go somewhere where not JUST a burglary took place, but from Paul's postings, physical attacks on children of all beings!. That leads me to believe more injury could have resulted if for some reason a guest decided to defend themselves.
Just wanted to share what I have found out and what "SV", I think was looking for:
Incident at Naibor Camp:
At 23.35 on Wednesday 7th October, 4 – 6 individuals entered into Naibor camp in the heart of the Mara Reserve.
All of them went to the manager’s tent and fired 2 warning gun shots into the air before entering the manager’s tent. Jamie and Sophie, the managers were taken to the office and forced to unlock it for the thieves to take a laptop, camera, mobile phone and some petty cash. The manager’s radios were also stolen which made communication between all the tents difficult. (there are guest radios in every tent) The thieves then told Jamie and Sophie to lie still and not to move. Jamie waited a few moments before jumping in the car to drive to Intrepids camp where there is a permanent armed guard ranger station.
The thieves then came across 2 askaris who had come to see what was happening and fired 2 more warning shots into the air before breaking into tents number 3, 4 and 5 reprimanding the guests and stealing possessions. One couple had their passports stolen and the other two couples had money, phones and other possessions stolen. The exact details of what was taken is still to be confirmed. Only one guest saw the gun but they did all see the machetes the robbers were carrying. No guests were hurt.
There were six askaris on duty and one of the askaris went to Little Naibor to reassure those guests. Two askaris went to Rekero the camp next door to help. Rekero radioed the Intrepids Rangers who then met Jamie en route.
Three askaris came to the office to see what was happening which prompted the robbers to fire the second two warning shots into the air. These askaris then hid in the bush when the robbers fired the warning shots. They re-emerged as soon as the incident was over.
The management went to each tent to reassure guests and give them refreshments. Everybody went back to bed after a short while. One couple in tent 7 slept through the entire incident.
The whole incident took less than 20 minutes from the time they first arrived.
Anthony Cheffings, one of the owners of Naibor was informed of the incident at 00.15 and immediately called the Sector Warden at 00.20. The Sector Warden is based at Intrepids and an ambush was set up immediately and was in place by 00.45. The Senior Warden was then called.
Ranger force from Park HQ was in camp at 2.00am, to reinforce local area rangers. Police OCPD (Officer commanding police division) from Narok was here at 4am and local Tourism Police Unit here by 6am. TPU assisted with statements and police abstracts and all guests were processed and left on time for the scheduled departures.
Anthony Cheffings called Lewa security at 6.45 to organise bloodhounds to be ready to come down to the camp to track the robbers. A charter with Tropic Air collected the dogs and they were on the ground at Naibor at 9.45am.
There were 12 guests due to leave today who have left on normal services. 8 guests should have stayed on a private charter was organised to fly them out.
One couple decided to stay and the other couple have been moved to Shompole.
There is a group of three coming in today who have been informed about the situation and they are happy to continue with their plans as normal.
Nov 17th, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Thanks FP for getting this information to us. Kennedy had not heard this and he is a member of KATO.
Kennedy is extremely distraught and very saddened by this. He’s so sorry for what happened to this family. It's so painful. He apologizes for all of Kenya to everyone at Fodors and to Paul and Tracy and their 2 boys.
Kennedy is extremely distraught and very saddened by this. He’s so sorry for what happened to this family. It's so painful. He apologizes for all of Kenya to everyone at Fodors and to Paul and Tracy and their 2 boys.
Nov 17th, 2009, 11:02 AM
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LindaS: I have been in contact with Daniel as we are planning a trip in April. His e-mail response to me was that he was contacted by a "client in North America" regarding the incident - I am assuming it may be you and he has assured me of our safety in the Mara. However, he never indicated that he knew anything prior to your making contact. I really find that hard to believe and am now reconsidering our trip.
