Strange times.

regards

Old post as you said, but perhaps still a relevant question. Pamo2 resurrected the thread because he/she had a similar question. If budget is a key concern, we would possibly also recommend Kruger as a good alternative to Botswana, and certainly to the Okavango. The Okavango has some fantastic lodges, but with the wrong choice of lodge you can find yourself doing mainly water-based activities and very little game viewing. You need to ask yourself, does the lodge offer game drives as well? If so, do they allow night drives and off-road driving? This is usually only possible at lodges on concession land, not in the national parks. Also, how much does the annual flood affect the lodge? Some lodges only offer game drives in the low water season, the rest of the year they only offer boat cruises and makoro trips, and perhaps bush walks on some of the islands. With those activities, the focus is not so much on game viewing, and for this reason the Okavango is not really the best destination from a game viewing perspective. And from a cost perspective, Botswana remains very expensive compared to the greater Kruger area for example.
Regarding Kruger vs private lodges, the lodges in the Sabi Sand or Timbavati (the private reserves adjacent to Kruger) don't really 'guarantee' sightings, but yes the chances of seeing the big 5 up close, especially lions and leopards, is better than in the main part of kruger, where vehicles are not permitted to go off-road. The benefit comes from vehicles being in radio contact and calling in sightings, and being able to go off-road to get closer or follow an animal through the bush. In Kruger you will find vaster landscapes, probably greater numbers of animals and greater diversity of animal sightings. So perhaps the best is to combine the two. A few nights in Kruger, followed by a few nights in the Sabi Sand or Timbavati. We have always found this to be a winning recipe.
Do I think someone will be disappointed with Botswana or Kruger if they have mental picture of the East African plains? It's possible, but for many people it's the animal sightings that count most, and the landscape counts less, perhaps. I don't think they will be disappointed with the animal sightings in Kruger or Botswana, unless they were expecting to see the migration. Overall game viewing is excellent in Botswana as well as Kruger, and in fact there is no game reserve in Africa that beats Kruger in terms of species diversity (sheer variety of mammals).
Onne from Wild Wings Safaris

Don't forget ELEPHANT PLAINS LODGE which is excellent value for money in Sabi Sand.

Also don't forget to advise in case one decides on to a mixed adventure one should first visit Kruger NP followed by Sabi Sand - vv is almost a guarantee for disappointment.

((@))

Very much agree with SV about doing Kruger NP first if also doing other private camps. The private camps will spoil you in every way :)

regards - tom

Yes I agree with that, and if doing Timbavati as well as Sabi Sand, I would do Timbavati first and then Sabi Sand for the same reason. The game viewing in Sabi Sand is a bit better, usually.

A number of the lodges mentioned are great - but Londolozi is special. You will get such special treatment there you won't want to return home. (I cried when I had to leave!) Just a word about MalaMala - very famous and all that, but the trackers sitting in the back is extremely irritating at night when they are working their spotlights - obviously attracting every bug in sight - and because the light is behind the guests, you get more than your fair share of bugs in your hair, face and clothes. I didn't enjoy that at all.

Living4safari,

So their spotters are back on the job after the strike/lock out?

living4safari
I couldn't agree more on both: Londo as it's REALLY VERY special and not without reason my fav and also regarding the back-trackers at MM;-)

((@))

What I find particularly strange is that people here always speak about the same 5 lodges in two or three private reserves around Kruger.

Are you guys not overhyping things a bit here?

I'm going this September, and OK, I am going to EP too. Because for me it is affordable in Sabi Sands. Those other lodges mentioned here... you all are very rich people!

Well, either that, or your stays are less long. I combined my 3 nights at EP with 3 times 3 other nights in other lodges plus four nights at the beach in Mozambique. The total bill for those 16 nights, all flights and transfers included, does not pass the 10K$ mark (2 ppl).

I'd like to find out what ppl think about these lodges/areas:

1) How about this reserve: Manyeleti GR? Seems perfectly located to me. There's some more expensive lodges in there, like Tintswalo Safari Lodge and Honeyguide camps (Khoka Moya and Montabeni). But there's also Pungwe Bush Camp (which we chose).

2) In Timbavati there's not only Kings camp! How about, in the mucho money class, Motswari and Gomo Gomo? No Fodorite ever goes there? I personally opted for Shindzela. Again because of price, but also because of what the write on their website. I'll quote it once more (done this once already few months ago):


"- we don't have an African spa... we think that fresh air and the sights and sounds of the bush constitute a spa experience second to none anyway....
- we don't have a high staff / guest ratio. If you fancy a cold beer, please help yourself and mark it down on our honesty bar tab
- our menu's don't feature dishes with culinary terms like "jus", "compote" or "lightly seared". Our meals are tasty and homemade, with lots of fresh fruit, veg and salads. Enjoy a traditional South Africa braai with freshly baked safari bread, or a potjie (stew), cooked slowly over the fire.
- our camp is not built by an award winning architect, nor is it furnished by an interior designer. What you will find though, is a comfy bed, freshly laundered linen, and decor from local crafters and artists. We love our informal, relaxed atmosphere"


Does this not sound like music to your ears? Or does this only appeal to me??

3) And how about Klaserie? Kitara camp, Nzumba Lodge, Africa On Foot lodge, ... good stuff there too.

4) Other game reserves such as Edeni PGR, Thornybush GR, Balule GR, Makalali PGR, ...


Are you all only going to Mala Mala, Londolozi and Kings?? And why? Because those are the only lodges ever spoken about here?

Ciao,

J.

Hi there

@HariS - not sure, haven't been to that neck of the woods for a while; just thought I'd share my personal experience with the trackers sitting at the back of the vehicle.

@pixelpower - many of the places you mention are really great - thinking specifically of Gomo Gomo, Manyeleti GR (spectacular stars at night!). My personal experience with game viewing in Klaserie was dismal and that is what safari is all about. Personally I don't care too much about spa's ect, but it's nice to go now and again. One can recommend many places, but when recommending the BEST, I take into account the location, the room size, views from public areas, proximity to water (river or proper sized watering hole), food (quality and variety, but not necessarily who serves the fanciest food), SERVICE, personal touch from staff, signage in camp, comfort (including practical layout of rooms etc.), traversing property, quality of experience on game drives (from ranger & tracker). (That said, I may just mention that I worked in the service industry for a number of years, where all I did was to evaluate hotels, restaurants and guest houses on an 80 point evaluation model - which makes me a difficult client at times! :-) ) That is why I can quite easily recommend places like SabiSabi, Londolozi and Phinda (in Kwa-Zulu Natal) over some of the other places you mentioned.Fortunately, there is a place for everyone in the market seeing that we don't all look for the same type of experience.

Kind regards

"What I find particularly strange is that people here always speak about the same 5 lodges in two or three private reserves around Kruger."

Let's see, we have mentioned in recent threads, still up in the top 10 here on the left-
Kings Camp, Ngala Lodge, Motswari, Gomo Gomo, Simbavati, Kimbaku, Tanda Tula, Royal Legends, all in Timbavati reserve, count 8 camps.
In Sabi Sand reserve, same threads - MalaMala, Leopard Hills, Kirkmans, Elephant Plains, Exeter, Ivory Lodge, Londolozi, Sabi Sabi Earth, Leadwood Lodge, total of 9.

So that's 17 total, a few more than 5.

Specifically Shindezla, nice what they say, but what do they say about their game drives? Do they share traversing rights with other camps, which camps? How many maximum guests in a game drive vehicle? What are their typical starting and stopping hours for game drives?

I agree about there being lot more camps around Kruger than discussed here. And in South Africa there are what, 600 game farms"? I have to be selective when visiting due to budget constraints. I want to feel reasonably sure that where I go I will likely enjoy. So, my typical safari is going to a camp I've been to and know I like, e.g Kings Camp, and a new one, e.g. last Sep was Kirkmans. I wish I could visit every camp in Timabavati and Sabi Sand. But not gong to happen for me coming over from USA. So will have to leave it up to you folks living much closer in Europe :) .

regards - tom

Hey!

When I say "the five same lodges" it is of course just figure of speech! Not EXACTLY five. Lol

You know what I'm getting at; only the very top segment gets mentioned here. THAT is what I'm talking about.

Of course these lodges are the best. They should be! After all you pay them $£!*loads of money. But that does not mean all the rest out there is crap, right? My point is that you can surely get the same safari feel for less money. Actually, what you lose in room size and spa facilities, you may win in wildlife experience.

@Tom; all the questions you ask are valid, for ANY lodge. I do not feel inclined to answer these questions myself, not for Shindzela, nor for any other lodge I have mentioned. The point I'm making is that nobody here ever - and I do mean EVER - has even bothered to ask those questions to all those lodges.

J.

I think the reality is that for most people, even those who go on safari each year, they simply cannot visit all the different lodges but they can comment on the ones they have been to. I live in SA and make it my aim to visit all the lodges we sell so I can give first hand advice and comparisons, and even I have not stayed at ALL the lodges in greater Kruger. And you are quite right, there is a huge amount of choice, and perhaps budget is one of the first things to look at, to decide in which price range you are going to shop for a safari lodge.
Some of the cheaper lodges are indeed fantastic and offer great value for money, considering you can stay twice as long for the same cost as at one of the top end lodges. But you do have to ask the kind of questions that Tom asked: how is the game viewing? what is their traversing area? quality of guides? quality of food? location of lodge? condition of rooms? atmosphere? view? level of service? air-con? mosquito nets? number of guests per vehicles? etc.
Coming back to the Manyeleti GR, I would love to hear from someone who has been there recently. I have not been there in about 2 years and I must admit the game viewing was disappointing there for me the last few times I was there. Might have just been luck of the draw, or it may be because until recently poaching and hunting in Manyeleti was a problem, and the animals are afraid of vehicles and run away when they hear one approaching. Hopefully this will improve as the management of Manyeleti improves, it is such a beautiful area with fantastic safari potential.
pixelpower, would love to see a trip report with some feedback on Shindzela when you get back. Hope you have a fantastic safari there!
Onne from Wild Wings Safaris

Heart of the this camp review thing in South Africa could be like visitors to USA. I'm very familiar with USA, California especially, and could give lots of good advice (IMHO :) ) to visitors. But do I read the Fodors USA forum??? No I do not!!! Could be same thing with South Africa, that is, locals there who know all of this are not even on Fodors!!!! And that is why it is so great to have participants here like Onne and others from South Africa and Africa.

regards - tom

pp - I agree with you. I will never get to Londolozi or Singita. I am trying to plan an "affordable" trip for next year and having trouble finding anywhere with any feedback. The only mid range I hear about is EP - and I will choose Arathusa over it (again) because it has a water hole that our rondovelle overlooked and a larger traversing area. I think the marketing materials and travel agent junkets for those camps you mention must be quite good - and effective.

Please let us know how Shindzela is. It sounds perfect to me - especially being a tented camp. I had a not so great experience at Ngala Lodge a few years back so was not thinking about Timbavati again, but reading that makes me want to go. Any info on Gomo Gomo since it moved would be appreciated as well.

Hi Tom

I am also from SA and I really just have a passion for the bush, wildlife and going on safari. Not all my trips are luxury - I've gone camping in the Manyeleti, did a course at Pafuri eco-training camp (in November!!), done an archaeology course with SANParks (South African National Parks)with very basic facilities and accomodation. So yes, some of us do use and read the forums over here. To me its a question of sharing my passion (and knowledge) of the places I've been to with people who would like to come and visit our beautiful country. I appreciate people like you a lot - visitors from other countries who share my passion for the bush.

Cheers

I've been to Gomo Gomo since it moved, and the new camp (now in the Klaserie reserve) is lovely. No tents anymore, only chalets now (with aircon) and the camp overlooks a nice waterhole. When I went there, the Timbavati entrance and fenceline was still just to the south of their land, and I got the feeling they were stuck in the corner a bit and did not have as much animal traffic as at their old camp. Certainly our game drives were a bit quiet. But that gate and fenceline has since been moved about 10km further west, and this now puts them a bit "deeper" into the reserve, and I believe the game viewing has improved with that. We get good feedback from most of the guests we send there, and for what you pay it is great value. Still, the game viewing is not the same as the Sabi Sand (Ele Plains and Arathusa). The old gomo gomo camp is now called Simbavati river lodge, very nicely upgraded and they have even added aircon to the tents. But they do charge a bit more now, around $350.
I can't give you the url on this forum, but on our one website we have a list of 8 safari lodges in greater kruger that are priced below $350 per person per night, and this list excludes Africa on Foot, nThambo camp and Shindzela, which are also budget camps. It also excludes the old Djuma bush lodge (now called Cheetah Plains) which is also in the Sabi Sand and one of the more affordable lodges (although their rooms I must say are tiny). Next month I am going to see Umkumbe in the Sabi Sand, also a budget lodge and one I have never visited before. So in total that gives you 13 budget lodges to choose from, all of them inside the greater Kruger National Park (no fences with Kruger, so the bush and animals are the same).
I do however still think there is a place for the top end lodges, and one should not compare a lodge that costs $300 per night with a lodge that costs $900 per night. If you want ultra luxury, exceptional service and food, extensive wine list, fewer people per vehicle, exclusive traversing, etc, and your budget allows, then by all means go for Londolozi or Lion Sands Ivory Lodge or Singita and the like.
It is great however that there is something for everyone, and for those who thought a safari vacation is way beyond your budget, it may be cheaper than you think if you try one of these budget lodges.
Onne from Wild Wings Safaris

Onne - Thanks for the reply. I had a lot of trouble finding the new camp at the old Gomo Gomo (thanks) and info on the Djuma bush lodge is hard to find - thanks for explaining why. Never heard of Umkumbe. So to do a relative budget safari without just doing Kruger is definitely doable with your new (new to me) info. Moving the fence must be good for Gomo. According to their ranger diaries, the animals seem to be getting more used to the vehicles. Unfortunately, don't they still allow hunting safaris in Klaserie? Makes it harder for the photo safaris.

There is definitely a place for the more expensive lodges - for my mother :) . She would NEVER go to EP or Arathusa if Singita or Londo is an option. I'm mostly concerned that the EP's will go away. I am not into luxury and it is a waste of money for me as I don't use it to its fullest. And I must admit I rather enjoy being with travelers who are more like me and less like the guys and gals on Wall Street. Plus, if it was only the high end lodges, I'd rarely get to go! Thanks again.

Ah! I see my post has stirred up things a bit :-D

Good to read that there are indeed people interested in non-top-market lodges, and that this info can be found here if asked for.

@Onne; to me it sounds really weird that Manyeleti should suffer a lot from poaching. If I look at this map... http://www.sa-venues.com/game-reserv...es-lowveld.htm ...it is located right next to Kruger, inbetween Sabi Sands and Timbavati, both of which extend further from Kruger than Manyeleti. I'll certainly report on this when we get back.

Note that I chose Pungwe Lodge there. Shindzela is in Timbavati. But of course, I'll give all the details on that lodge too.

@Christabir: I am not going to Gomo Gomo. Just mentioned it as a more likely contender in my budget range.

Your remark on the waterhole strikes a sensitive nerve with me. Indeed, it is one of those things that makes me decide on a lodge; where there's water, there's life. And it is certainly fun to watch that wildlife from your room. For example; we first dismissed Klaserie GR, but then decided to take 3 days at "Africa On Foot" anyway. And the main reason; they have a treehouse overlooking a small waterhole. I managed to get that one for three days, instead of a room (though apparently I am entitled to a room as well, lol).

@ living4safari: I would love to hear your experiences of Manyeleti GR!

Ciao,

J.

Well, now you all have me thinking (always bad). I am looking into the camps mentioned. On the driving directions to Umkumbe, the location seems to be on Mala Mala property! According to the map, it is located between the river (I don't know what river it is) and Nottens. Does that mean their traversing area is just that "little" space? I can't find anywhere that states the traversing hectares or area. I am intrigued!

Now Shindzela really has me intrigued. Their website is great - all the words are pretty much my dream place. I hope it is as great as it sounds. J - please let us know how it really is. I'm a fan of rustic now that we've been to Mashatu tented.

Thanks everyone for giving me hope to go to South Africa more often!! Now to pile up those FF miles!