Planning a trip for 2010
Apr 8th, 2008, 06:26 PM
#21
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I started planning a trip for 12 people for this coming July about a year ago and a couple of the camps we wanted weren't available for a group of that size. The travel agent told me that you need to allow 18 months if you want to be sure to get exactly what you want. By the way . . . there were absolutely no discounts for a group of 12. At that time of year, the camps don't need to offer them.
South Africa Airways told me they'd quote me a group rate for our round-trip flights from Washington, DC to Joburg. The rate they gave me was more than the standard rate quoted on their website!
South Africa Airways told me they'd quote me a group rate for our round-trip flights from Washington, DC to Joburg. The rate they gave me was more than the standard rate quoted on their website!
Apr 10th, 2008, 04:36 PM
#22
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Don't know if this is important, but just a reminder that the World Cup is coming to South Africa June 11 - July 11, 2010. I expect things will be rather crowded in Southern Africa before, during, and after the soccer..er..football.
Apr 12th, 2008, 03:59 AM
#23
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excellent planning! especially with such a big group!
time and tehrefore money is on your side as some camps will appreciate your booking right now: on exclusive basis. you can negotiate good rates for almost every camp in the delta, moremi, linyanti, chobe.
contact www.santuarylodges.com for their camps on excl use. in three different eco zones. stay for at least 3 - 4 nights in each camp instead of camp hopping.
if you stick with one company you are in a really good position to negotiate.
we did the same via their german rep:
www.marketconsultkeller.de
regarding deception valley lodge:
would think twice to go there because the game was not particularly rocketing. but of course compared to makgadikgadi it was good - except for the zebra migration in the first qurter of a year there is the emphasis on the meercats project, a couple of brown hyena and maybe some lions.......
happy planning!
time and tehrefore money is on your side as some camps will appreciate your booking right now: on exclusive basis. you can negotiate good rates for almost every camp in the delta, moremi, linyanti, chobe.
contact www.santuarylodges.com for their camps on excl use. in three different eco zones. stay for at least 3 - 4 nights in each camp instead of camp hopping.
if you stick with one company you are in a really good position to negotiate.
we did the same via their german rep:
www.marketconsultkeller.de
regarding deception valley lodge:
would think twice to go there because the game was not particularly rocketing. but of course compared to makgadikgadi it was good - except for the zebra migration in the first qurter of a year there is the emphasis on the meercats project, a couple of brown hyena and maybe some lions.......
happy planning!
Apr 12th, 2008, 04:00 AM
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Apr 12th, 2008, 07:58 AM
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pippa: when was your experience at Deception Valley Lodge? In the green season bush can be thick requiring patient viewing and sometimes resulting in quiet drives during parts of the year but in August with the leaves down it should be very rich. The desert will never compare to the Delta for numbers of animals or even diversity of species but on a trip this past November on just a 3 night stay (and one whole day gone into the CKGR) I had my two best leopard sightings ever, outstanding lions, five honey badgers, gorgeous oryx, etc. 22 mammals species total. This was after the first rains and the bush had already leafed out quite a bit so not quite prime time like August. Bushmen trackers following spoor to track down the big cats at DVL is one of the most exciting game experiences I have found so during the August time frame I highly recommend it for a desert wildlife experience.
LBS: Kwando vs. Wilderness Safaris has become a contentious issue at times because both have avid followers and research on the board should turn up a lot. As of late there have been some reports that the Kwando product has slipped a bit but they are also in the process of rennovating camps so by the time you go it will be different than it is today. In general there are a few traditional differences in style but I'd caution that individual guides and camp managers (which turn over often) set their own tones at each camp and thus stereotypes do not always hold.
One big difference is the vehicles. Kwando uses a URI which is a Namibian military vehicle. They ride a little lower to the ground and are configured with just 2 rows of 3 seats behind the guide. Kwando prefers this set up as everyone is closer to the guide and can hear their interpretations easier. They do not have canopies on them which makes overhead viewing easier and being lower and completely open makes it the ultimate for photography. They are also great for high speed pursuit of action such as hunting wild dogs. Some people complain that they think the vehicle rides rough, personally I like them a lot as complete openess if fantastic as is being close to the guide. Downside is if your party splits 5 & 5 or 6 & 4 there will be people in the middle seat which makes things crowded and leaves someone looking over another person. To me that is a big negative.
WS vehicles have 3 rows of 3 behind the guide and typically just 6 people will ride so everyone is on the outside seats and it gives you the middle seat for your camera pack, etc. Third row is a bit far from the guide and high for photography but I feel I can spot really well from the higher perspective so that doesn't bother me. You would want to check with your agent on vehicle commitment for your group as if you went 6 & 4 they could put another couple in one of your vehicles, and if camp is crowded even at 5 & 5 you could have a single or even another couple added. That can be a plus or negative depending on who is added so if you want to keep your group exclusive be sure and have your agent check on that and hopefully with your size group each camp will commit two vehicles exclusively for your use.
Camps themselves WS has a reputation for having more luxurious accommodation and finer food than Kwando. I imagine Kwando camps that are renovated will be of a very similar standard to the average WS 5 paw camp but WS seems to do a better job historically of keeping their tents fresh whereas Kwando has let them age quite a bit before making updates. While WS camps are better known for their food I have found Kwando camps to have a more family feel and in addition to tourist food they usually offer a local dish which I think is nice to round out the experience.
Traditionally Kwando has earned a reputation for emphasis on game drives, willing to stay out longer and work things like meals around what is going on in the field where WS has started to earn a reputation for being more regimented with schedule and trying to be back at set times. Again, as I disclaimed this is where the individual guides and managers really come into play and if you open good communication with them often times you can get it your way, especially when you have the majority of the camp in your group. Also, Kwando uses a guide and a tracker which I believe is a huge asset for your game experience. WS only provides a guide and I don't understand why. Kwando is known for the ability of the guides and trackers to actively follow the spoor and sign of animals and try to track them down. It also makes a big difference on night drives where the tracker can work the spotlight as opposed to a guide trying to drive and light all at the same time.
Those are just some of the major traditional style differences but I think the great thing with having a group of your size is you should be able to influence the activities to how you want them by communicating well with the camp managers and your guides.
LBS: Kwando vs. Wilderness Safaris has become a contentious issue at times because both have avid followers and research on the board should turn up a lot. As of late there have been some reports that the Kwando product has slipped a bit but they are also in the process of rennovating camps so by the time you go it will be different than it is today. In general there are a few traditional differences in style but I'd caution that individual guides and camp managers (which turn over often) set their own tones at each camp and thus stereotypes do not always hold.
One big difference is the vehicles. Kwando uses a URI which is a Namibian military vehicle. They ride a little lower to the ground and are configured with just 2 rows of 3 seats behind the guide. Kwando prefers this set up as everyone is closer to the guide and can hear their interpretations easier. They do not have canopies on them which makes overhead viewing easier and being lower and completely open makes it the ultimate for photography. They are also great for high speed pursuit of action such as hunting wild dogs. Some people complain that they think the vehicle rides rough, personally I like them a lot as complete openess if fantastic as is being close to the guide. Downside is if your party splits 5 & 5 or 6 & 4 there will be people in the middle seat which makes things crowded and leaves someone looking over another person. To me that is a big negative.
WS vehicles have 3 rows of 3 behind the guide and typically just 6 people will ride so everyone is on the outside seats and it gives you the middle seat for your camera pack, etc. Third row is a bit far from the guide and high for photography but I feel I can spot really well from the higher perspective so that doesn't bother me. You would want to check with your agent on vehicle commitment for your group as if you went 6 & 4 they could put another couple in one of your vehicles, and if camp is crowded even at 5 & 5 you could have a single or even another couple added. That can be a plus or negative depending on who is added so if you want to keep your group exclusive be sure and have your agent check on that and hopefully with your size group each camp will commit two vehicles exclusively for your use.
Camps themselves WS has a reputation for having more luxurious accommodation and finer food than Kwando. I imagine Kwando camps that are renovated will be of a very similar standard to the average WS 5 paw camp but WS seems to do a better job historically of keeping their tents fresh whereas Kwando has let them age quite a bit before making updates. While WS camps are better known for their food I have found Kwando camps to have a more family feel and in addition to tourist food they usually offer a local dish which I think is nice to round out the experience.
Traditionally Kwando has earned a reputation for emphasis on game drives, willing to stay out longer and work things like meals around what is going on in the field where WS has started to earn a reputation for being more regimented with schedule and trying to be back at set times. Again, as I disclaimed this is where the individual guides and managers really come into play and if you open good communication with them often times you can get it your way, especially when you have the majority of the camp in your group. Also, Kwando uses a guide and a tracker which I believe is a huge asset for your game experience. WS only provides a guide and I don't understand why. Kwando is known for the ability of the guides and trackers to actively follow the spoor and sign of animals and try to track them down. It also makes a big difference on night drives where the tracker can work the spotlight as opposed to a guide trying to drive and light all at the same time.
Those are just some of the major traditional style differences but I think the great thing with having a group of your size is you should be able to influence the activities to how you want them by communicating well with the camp managers and your guides.
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:18 AM
#26
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Bill,
Just a slight correction on the URI, it is not a Namibian military vehicle. The company started in Namibia but moved to South Africa many years ago. All vehicles are based on Toyota Hilux and are built to purchasers specifications. It is the finest game viewing vehicle around, personaly I have never seen 6 people in one at Kwando.
So the answer is if you want food and a luxury tent go to Wilderness, if you want to see game go to Kwando, the choice is yours.
Just a slight correction on the URI, it is not a Namibian military vehicle. The company started in Namibia but moved to South Africa many years ago. All vehicles are based on Toyota Hilux and are built to purchasers specifications. It is the finest game viewing vehicle around, personaly I have never seen 6 people in one at Kwando.
So the answer is if you want food and a luxury tent go to Wilderness, if you want to see game go to Kwando, the choice is yours.
Apr 12th, 2008, 12:14 PM
#27
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Snik: thanks for the correction, I knew they originated from Namibia and I thought they were originally made for Namibian military but perhaps that is an incorrect recollection. I did not know they were now made in S.A.
When I was at Lebala we were fortunate that our group of 4 had a vehicle to ourselves because they were indeed running two other vehicles some of the time with a full 6 and it looked very tight. In LBS's case with 10 people there would almost certainly be two rows of 3 people between their two vehicles so that is something to consider. I did neglect to mention that the WS vehicles usually have canopies on top which is nice to block the sun but it also means you have poles that sometimes obscure photos and views. I do agree with Snik that the Kwando vehicle is the ideal for gameviewing as long as you are not overpacked in.
When I was at Lebala we were fortunate that our group of 4 had a vehicle to ourselves because they were indeed running two other vehicles some of the time with a full 6 and it looked very tight. In LBS's case with 10 people there would almost certainly be two rows of 3 people between their two vehicles so that is something to consider. I did neglect to mention that the WS vehicles usually have canopies on top which is nice to block the sun but it also means you have poles that sometimes obscure photos and views. I do agree with Snik that the Kwando vehicle is the ideal for gameviewing as long as you are not overpacked in.
Apr 12th, 2008, 01:12 PM
#28
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PredatorBio
we stayed at DVL in october. accomm and lodge, meals, staff: extremly nice....but as i mentioned the wildlife was poor.
but of course i understand that differs enormously depending on the weather, the guide etc.
i fully buy your points regarding kwando and ws.
granting the clients a "window" seat for game drives in not a "selling point" but NOT GRANTING it is definately a DISadvantage to their peer for the reason you clearly stated.
and because you cannot rely on being only 2 pax in a row. you either have to book SUV or swallow being in a packed car! for people keen on wildlife photography it's simply inacceptable. one has to consider that if the camp is full and one guest has booked a SUV or they need one car for transfers beween lebala and lagoon then they pack the remaining car to the limit.
that means spoiling time and money and lots of frustration!
regarding value for money: kwando is a very good buy!
no fancy food but good food incl. lots of salads for brunch and very good selection for the "herbivores".
i also agree: being in a bigger group i would assume WS is going to cooperate to the guests liking!
most important to me personally: I don't like kwando's attitude to trophy hunting which is carried out by a sub-contractor!
we stayed at DVL in october. accomm and lodge, meals, staff: extremly nice....but as i mentioned the wildlife was poor.
but of course i understand that differs enormously depending on the weather, the guide etc.
i fully buy your points regarding kwando and ws.
granting the clients a "window" seat for game drives in not a "selling point" but NOT GRANTING it is definately a DISadvantage to their peer for the reason you clearly stated.
and because you cannot rely on being only 2 pax in a row. you either have to book SUV or swallow being in a packed car! for people keen on wildlife photography it's simply inacceptable. one has to consider that if the camp is full and one guest has booked a SUV or they need one car for transfers beween lebala and lagoon then they pack the remaining car to the limit.
that means spoiling time and money and lots of frustration!
regarding value for money: kwando is a very good buy!
no fancy food but good food incl. lots of salads for brunch and very good selection for the "herbivores".
i also agree: being in a bigger group i would assume WS is going to cooperate to the guests liking!
most important to me personally: I don't like kwando's attitude to trophy hunting which is carried out by a sub-contractor!
Apr 12th, 2008, 11:06 PM
#29
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Pippa 13
The cost of a private vehicle at Kwando is very reasonable in comparison to other camps in particular WS.
If you need to guarantee that there are only 4 persons on the vehicle then the cost is $75 per empty seat. So for a group of 4 it is $37.50 per person per day hardly extravegant.
Having yet again brought up the matter of hunting at Kwando, could you explain why you consider that a sub-contractor has any effect.
For other interested parties hunting is very limited and takes place very far away from the game viewing areas of Kwando, please remember that Kwando is the largest concession in Botswana. I have never seen any hunting or met any hunters there and I regularly go into the mopane west of the 10k road.
The cost of a private vehicle at Kwando is very reasonable in comparison to other camps in particular WS.
If you need to guarantee that there are only 4 persons on the vehicle then the cost is $75 per empty seat. So for a group of 4 it is $37.50 per person per day hardly extravegant.
Having yet again brought up the matter of hunting at Kwando, could you explain why you consider that a sub-contractor has any effect.
For other interested parties hunting is very limited and takes place very far away from the game viewing areas of Kwando, please remember that Kwando is the largest concession in Botswana. I have never seen any hunting or met any hunters there and I regularly go into the mopane west of the 10k road.
Apr 13th, 2008, 12:29 AM
#30
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Why do travel agents find fault with the URI? IMO, the URI is one of their biggest strengths. Lynn, started a topic on tripadvisor-that reminds me -why do people with a dodgy back blame the URI? They ought to give yoga or pilates a shot! Strengthening the core, does help!!! usual travel agent drama and theatre, i suppose.
Apr 14th, 2008, 05:48 AM
#34
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DD7151 - your comments regarding discounts are a bit discouraging, but my plan is to shop my itinerary (both ground and air) around - hopefully I'll be able to achieve something!
Thank you everyone for the additional information on camps and vehicles. My current inclination is to 'spread it around a bit'.
I'm thinking about
Chitabe Lediba (3 nights)
Deception Valley (2 nights - is this too short?)
Lebala (3 nights)
and 2 of the following for 2 or 3 nights each
Mapula Lodge
Tuba Tree
Kwetsani
Little Mombo
Baines
I would appreciate comments.
In particular, when I first started dreaming about this trip 2 years ago, it seemed that, for game, one went to Mombo if one could afford it. This no longer seems clear. Is that because the price is soo outrageous that no one can afford to go? Or is it that the game is no longer that much better? Other reasons?
Also, if the verdict is that the game is still worth it at Mombo, is it worth doing if one can only afford 2 nights?
As many of you will detect from my camp choice, I'm leaning towards camps where we would be automatically have an exclusive - although good game rates above exclusivity. I am planning on 2 exclusive vehicles at every camp (one of the committments I'm hoping to get gratis for my group size). It sounds like this will still be something of viewing issue in the URIs - but I expect those of us who have had the priviledge before will take turns in the middle.
I asked everyone in our group to pick the one animal they wanted to see most - fortunately the exotics are mostly from the adults who know the score. I've included the list in case this influences anyone's recommendation
Elephant
Giraffe
Hippo
Lion
Gemsbok
Sitatunga
Leopard
Cheetah
Wild Dog
Pangolin
Thanks,
LBS
Thank you everyone for the additional information on camps and vehicles. My current inclination is to 'spread it around a bit'.
I'm thinking about
Chitabe Lediba (3 nights)
Deception Valley (2 nights - is this too short?)
Lebala (3 nights)
and 2 of the following for 2 or 3 nights each
Mapula Lodge
Tuba Tree
Kwetsani
Little Mombo
Baines
I would appreciate comments.
In particular, when I first started dreaming about this trip 2 years ago, it seemed that, for game, one went to Mombo if one could afford it. This no longer seems clear. Is that because the price is soo outrageous that no one can afford to go? Or is it that the game is no longer that much better? Other reasons?
Also, if the verdict is that the game is still worth it at Mombo, is it worth doing if one can only afford 2 nights?
As many of you will detect from my camp choice, I'm leaning towards camps where we would be automatically have an exclusive - although good game rates above exclusivity. I am planning on 2 exclusive vehicles at every camp (one of the committments I'm hoping to get gratis for my group size). It sounds like this will still be something of viewing issue in the URIs - but I expect those of us who have had the priviledge before will take turns in the middle.
I asked everyone in our group to pick the one animal they wanted to see most - fortunately the exotics are mostly from the adults who know the score. I've included the list in case this influences anyone's recommendation
Elephant
Giraffe
Hippo
Lion
Gemsbok
Sitatunga
Leopard
Cheetah
Wild Dog
Pangolin
Thanks,
LBS
Apr 14th, 2008, 06:10 AM
#35
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Hi Lbs,
Just saw your list- pangolin, u need to be super lucky! I am yet to see one
Lion-Mombo is meant to hv the highest density of them at the moment. Although, you may see some at the other locations.
Wild dogs-if u were specific about this, i think lagoon a better bet compared to lebala, especially during the denning months.
OL
Elephants- Chobe NP being the best. However, some of my best viewing was at the spillway in the Selinda. You should see some at most places on your list.
Cheetah- Hit or miss. You have a decent chance
Leopard- I haven't been to mombo in almost 5 years now, but, i had some phenomenal viewing then. Check for more current updates. I've had good viewing at kwara. The Kwara female and cub are superstars.
Also, reading the WS site-lots of their camps have good leopard viewing. Including, ones on ur list.
Good luck!
Just saw your list- pangolin, u need to be super lucky! I am yet to see one
Lion-Mombo is meant to hv the highest density of them at the moment. Although, you may see some at the other locations.
Wild dogs-if u were specific about this, i think lagoon a better bet compared to lebala, especially during the denning months.
OL
Elephants- Chobe NP being the best. However, some of my best viewing was at the spillway in the Selinda. You should see some at most places on your list.
Cheetah- Hit or miss. You have a decent chance
Leopard- I haven't been to mombo in almost 5 years now, but, i had some phenomenal viewing then. Check for more current updates. I've had good viewing at kwara. The Kwara female and cub are superstars.
Also, reading the WS site-lots of their camps have good leopard viewing. Including, ones on ur list.
Good luck!
Apr 14th, 2008, 06:15 AM
#36
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Your wish list is interesting, but some will be very difficult.
Most particularly Pangolin!
Then you have 2 very difficult antelope for differing reasons
Sitatunga because they are very shy and rarely seen
Gemsbok because they are an animal that is only normally seen in dry areas.
Finally Wild Dog.
My view is that you are making the common mistake of moving around too much each stay should be at least 3 nights, otherwise you will waste a lot of time travelling and lots more money on transfers.
As you have such a large group you should assure yourself of having exclusive vehicles.
Most particularly Pangolin!
Then you have 2 very difficult antelope for differing reasons
Sitatunga because they are very shy and rarely seen
Gemsbok because they are an animal that is only normally seen in dry areas.
Finally Wild Dog.
My view is that you are making the common mistake of moving around too much each stay should be at least 3 nights, otherwise you will waste a lot of time travelling and lots more money on transfers.
As you have such a large group you should assure yourself of having exclusive vehicles.
Apr 14th, 2008, 06:19 AM
#37
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Ken,
i have seen sitatunga at Lebala- even Spencer was taken by surprise. But, that area has not been accessible in last couple of years, as is submerged in water. He says, change in techtonic plates.
i have seen sitatunga at Lebala- even Spencer was taken by surprise. But, that area has not been accessible in last couple of years, as is submerged in water. He says, change in techtonic plates.
Apr 14th, 2008, 06:58 AM
#38
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Lbs,
I think you should try for 3 nights min. also, this gives you 2 full days at camp without having to transfer on those two days. Especially with 10 people having to unpack & repack, will be time consuming and expensive to keep paying for flights. Also to me, the transfer days are more tiring, more rushed, and just not as pleasant, it doesn't feel like you are as attuned to the camp and the atmosphere on those days.
It looks like you are attempting to book all small camps, so you can take the entire camp. This seems like a good idea and a good possiblity, except for the Linyati/Kwando/Selinda areas. I believe that these camps Duma Tau, Savuti, Lebala, Lagoon, and Selinda all have 8 or 9 tents. However, if I had 2 to 3 weeks in Botswana, I would certainly want to include at least one camp in one of these areas. In other words, I think you need to include at least one larger camp, but see what others think.
I'm not sure how Little Mombo works for you, I thought there were only 3 tents there, but maybe that has recently changed.
I think you should try for 3 nights min. also, this gives you 2 full days at camp without having to transfer on those two days. Especially with 10 people having to unpack & repack, will be time consuming and expensive to keep paying for flights. Also to me, the transfer days are more tiring, more rushed, and just not as pleasant, it doesn't feel like you are as attuned to the camp and the atmosphere on those days.
It looks like you are attempting to book all small camps, so you can take the entire camp. This seems like a good idea and a good possiblity, except for the Linyati/Kwando/Selinda areas. I believe that these camps Duma Tau, Savuti, Lebala, Lagoon, and Selinda all have 8 or 9 tents. However, if I had 2 to 3 weeks in Botswana, I would certainly want to include at least one camp in one of these areas. In other words, I think you need to include at least one larger camp, but see what others think.
I'm not sure how Little Mombo works for you, I thought there were only 3 tents there, but maybe that has recently changed.
Apr 14th, 2008, 07:40 AM
#39
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Yes, I appreciate that Pangolin is is extremely unlikely! But if you aren't looking ....
Suffice it to say that we do not need to spot pangolin (or Sitatunga) to have the trip be a success. On the other hand, if we did not see any of the big cats, there would be a lot of dissapointment.
My goal for the animal list is to make sure that I have weighted the camp list in our favour. For example - if the best habitat for Sitatunga is not present in the camps on my list, I want to know where I should include if I'm serious about trying spot this species.
As to Gemsbok, I thought that this would not be particularly a stretch while at Deception Valley Lodge, was I mistaken?
Sniktawk - my intention was 5 camps spending 3 nights at each of 4 camps and 2 nights at the 5th. Is your recommendation that I extend the trip a day so that we have 3 nights at the 5th camp or that I should limit myself to 4 camps? I had some concerns that 4 nights in the same place might be long if some of those new to the experience do not prove to have the passion.
Thanks,
LBS
Suffice it to say that we do not need to spot pangolin (or Sitatunga) to have the trip be a success. On the other hand, if we did not see any of the big cats, there would be a lot of dissapointment.
My goal for the animal list is to make sure that I have weighted the camp list in our favour. For example - if the best habitat for Sitatunga is not present in the camps on my list, I want to know where I should include if I'm serious about trying spot this species.
As to Gemsbok, I thought that this would not be particularly a stretch while at Deception Valley Lodge, was I mistaken?
Sniktawk - my intention was 5 camps spending 3 nights at each of 4 camps and 2 nights at the 5th. Is your recommendation that I extend the trip a day so that we have 3 nights at the 5th camp or that I should limit myself to 4 camps? I had some concerns that 4 nights in the same place might be long if some of those new to the experience do not prove to have the passion.
Thanks,
LBS
