Photographic safaris and transparency - now that we have the rack rates -
 

Hi,

Now that we have the rack rates available on the travel website of a TA who's also offering photographic safaris, we can make some calculations.

EOA and Andy Biggs are offering a 10-day safari in July 2009 to WS properties at the following cost:

14.975 USD for one day in JNB, 3 days in Chitabe, 3 days in Kwetsani and another 3 in Savuti.

Cost of the camps in Botswana:

9 * 900 = 8.100 USD

Cost of the hotel in JNB and transfer JNB-Maun: 1.000 USD (roughly guess)

Cost of the intercamp flights: 1.000 USD (250 * 4) (roughly guess)

So that gives a total cost of 10.100 USD if you are doing this safari without a photographer.

So you pay for the service of the photographer and the private guide = 3.875 USD per person

So if they have ten people joining them, they have brut earnings of 3.875 per day. I don't count the fact that the partner who isn't interested in photography most likely is joining and he/she is invited to pay the same amount.

Let's say their is no commission on the excess cost (3.875 USD) for the TA, than the TA earns 3.030 USD per person if the commission is 30%. I wonder what service you get for that price???

I can clearly see the winners here but also the losers.

Also if you are serious into photography, I won't see the point of joining other people as you have to compromise with them on the following issues:

Which animals do we focus on;
How much time do we spend at a sighting.

Also the more people in the vehicle, the more movement and noise (scaring animals and birds away).

I can only see this for people who set their first steps into the wonderful world of safaris and don't take time to do some homework before they book a trip.


Also I thought excessive earnings where a not done now that most of us are suffering because of the global economical crisis.

Hopefully those people have some award winning photographs afterwards.


Cheers,

George

I made a little mistake.

It should be 4.875 USD instead of 3.875 USD.

Cheers,

George

So what's your point, George? No one is forcing you or anyone else to sign on for this very expensive photographic safari. But it's nice that the option is available for those who want it.

George,
I have a question for you-Are you for real??
Ted

I have costed that trip out and without the photographer the 9 night trip with the night in JNB and all the internal flights and the internationals JNB - Maun and LIV - JNB should cost $10,050 – so your figure of $10,100 pp was just about bang on
Bear in mind that this is rack and you should always be able to negotiate a discount with your tour operator off this price. Also if travel was in June then one of these nights would be free
So if you were to take this trip privately you would pay considerably less and I agree that the pricing of $14975 is way over the odds (especially given that you could have your own private guide with WS for $380 net per day)

Well tau and TTO, all kinds of people go on safari and photographic safari. For some of those people a $15,000 safari is -pocket change-. Even after you add on their first class airfare. If you think it is not worth the money, then it probably isn't for you. Kinda like julia1 said above.

Or, just like some people prefer Jaguar cars over Mercedes :-)

BTW tau, do you have a brother known here as "mgts"?

regards - tom

i think Tau's point is that this price is unnecessarily high given that you should be able to get exactly the same trip considerably cheaper
IE you still get a Jag in either situation, its just in one case you pay lots more than you should

TTO , "get exactly the same trip". NO, not by a long ways. You would not have professional photographic instruction. And with someone who has photographed the area several times, who knows the terrain, when to go where for the light, etc. You would also not have the camaraderie of fellow photographers. Those are the two biggest differences I see about safari with a pro leader versus doing it alone. And those are BIG differences.

Is it worth the additional $$$$? For some people it is and being a keen amateur photographer I understand that. There are a few here who have safaried with pro photographers, and with pros that do not participate here on the forum. Perhaps those folks will chime in with comparisons, price, experience, value, etc. I personally do not have such experience, but I'd like to :-)

regards - tom

You won't get exactly the same trip if you don't get Andy Biggs! And you won't get Andy Biggs for the cheaper price, at least you won't until the market changes and no one signs up for his trips and he decides to drop his prices.

I've never been on one of Andy's photo safaris, and I'm not in a position to afford to do so, but I'm willing to bet that almost everyone who goes with him thinks they got their money's worth. He wouldn't be in the business, or he wouldn't sell his trips at his prices, if that weren't true. He's charging approximately $500 per day for his time and instructional and organizational skills, all day, every day, for nine days.

As tanzaniatouroperator says, '... you could have your own private guide with WS for $380 net per day ...' - well, you may be right about that, but a private guide isn't Andy Biggs and probably doesn't have the photo skills to share that Andy has. For $120 more per day, you could have Andy!

I have been on several week-long photo workshops and for a keen amateur photographer, doing so is a real thrill and gives one a 'high' long after memories of cost disappear into the mist. Spending a week shooting in Morocco with others of like mind, shepherded around by a fine professional photographer and his assistant, having the 'best shots' handed to me on a plate, as it were, all the while receiving in-depth assistance and advice and critiques to guide me toward defining my individual style and vision - that's a week that will stay with me for as long as I can still handle a camera.

I don't understand the point of this thread. I think we all realize that experts charge a fee to run, organize and join a trip.

I know that I could by a book to teach myself guitar, or I could hire Eric Clapton, and I'm sure he would not be cheap. I could likewise by all the ingredients for a fancy dinner and prepare it myself, or I could dine at a Michelin 3 star a pay a lot more.

Wow, I just took a look at this thread before completely signing off for good. Back from a nice dinner with friends, and somebody is taking a poke at my costing structure.

All I can say is that your base cost is not correct, and that I charge market rates for my time. $10,000 or so cost is just not correct. I am not going to get out my spreadsheet to defend all of my costs, but my safaris are far from rack rate prices, because there are many things that are value added in the process.

Who are you anyway? Sounds like a way of (yet again) baiting somebody into a thread that should have been starting in the first place. Sounds like somebody else I know!

just to defend tau for the hell of it i can confirm that $10k is about right rack rate
though this is for a straight wilderness trip without fancy photographers

Tau - Given this thread and your previous thread about transparency you should phone Wilderness in SA and get them to confirm the rack rates to you. Then you will pay what you think you should be paying

julia1, who are you using for your photo trips? That sounds very interesting. If you don't want to post it here please send me an email.

tau, it seems like you think you had a big eureka moment but you are just being silly. Of course photographic safaris cost more because the person leading the safari adds his fee to it. Did you think they do it for free? Do you think the people paying to go on these trips don't know that?

I have been able to find rack rates on nearly all of the camps by searching the internet so it's not like you solved some big mystery.

While you're at it go ahead and tell us that the big tour companies charge a huge fee but you go to the same places that other people go for way less money (Micato comes to mind but there are others).

I've been to Africa 8 times beginning in 2002. I went with a pro in 2005 and 2007. Yep, worth it to me. I've also been to British Columbia to see the Kermode "Spirit Bears" with a pro. And I'm leaving in a couple of weeks for the Falkland Islands with a pro. And in March to photograph eagles in Homer. With a pro. Worth it to me? Yep. I could certainly do these trips cheaper on my own but choose not to. And yes, I know I am paying the pro's wages. Leading photography workshops is his job and how he earns a living.

tau says in replying to his/her original posting - "I made a little mistake. It should be 4.875 USD instead of 3.875 USD" I'll tell ya, this does not give me any confidence that they know what they are doing with prices!!!!!!

regards - tom

This thread is simply insane. Early on Temba Ted and then Andy implied that this tau (George) might not be quite what he presents himsself as. I must agree, his comments here and elsewhere suggest a genuine kook. My own thought on the subject is that for the quality of safari Andy offers, his expertise, and as Tom points out the fellowship of other enthusiastic photographers, these trips are a bargain. Of course one has to be able to afford them but nevertheless, given the quality of instruction and the experience offered, it is to my way of thinking, a very fair value. I'm afraid our origianl poster "tau" George (or whoever) really wants a trip to the San Diego Zoo and a stay at the Holiday Inn. This forum is being overun with Trolls and once identified they should be ignored.
Regards All-Chuck

Tom, what's funny is that those numbers are still way off!

Chartering a couple of Cessna Caravans or a Cessna 206 and a Caravan can get expensive, all in the pursuit in avoiding the dreaded 20Kg (44 pound) weight limit. Then let us know what numbers you come up with. And pick up inner-Africa air. And JNB hotel. And meals there. And all transfers. Sheesh.

When you get back from safari, don't complain to people that you grossly underexposed the leopard in the tree and don't know why. I have had past travelers rejoice that they were traveling with other photographers, and picked up tons of information that they would have never gotten otherwise.

Enough talking before I turn blue (bleu?) in the face.

:-)

I agree, Chuck. Time to ignore.

Having tried to assist this fellow, I realised it was a waste of time too...

It's not especially challenging to take potshots at someone while remaining anonymous.

Ethically challenged, certainly, but not difficult to do.

i am missing the NAME of the photographer here.
is it david balfour or jonathan scott?
then i estimate the "price tag" would be justifiable considering the logistics - assumed they use private charters allover and the "group" is a max of 4 paying pax.

if it's a wildlife photographer without a "brand name" at least the vita should be known and also his publishings.

and of course - any product has its client ;-)

div

oops - forgot the "transparency".

why should there be ANY transparency? you don't expect a calculation sheet. do you?

div

I'm probably going to regret doing this, but just to clarify some things on costs and markups:

1. There is nothing even approaching a 30% margin in those prices, for us or Andy.

A standard FIT booking does not make even close to a 30% gross margin for us and we actually make a far lower % margin on these Digital trips than we do on a standard booking.

The upshot is that the value is actually greater to the client (assuming they value the extras). We do these trips because they are a niche and I love co-leading them myself.

2. The trip requires sole use of a Caravan and a 206 for all the gear that is carried.

3. Pro photog's costs for transportation and lodging must be factored in (not just his daily fee).

4. The trip includes a 2nd co-leader (usually me) and the costs for this (transportation and lodging) are added in.

So the trip is actually 10 guests and three leader/guides. This puts a trip leader in each of the three vehicles.

5. Finally, do not forget that rack rates paid directly to WS will not include credit card fees (I believe you will pay something like 5% on top of rack to pay direct to WS). For an agent, cc fees are added as part of the cost.

6. Because these trips are often made up of single traveler's (sometimes couples), we have to have an extra tent at some camps to accommodate situations where we have a single male and single female and they will then need their own tent.

Anyway, the bottom line I am attempting to convey is that there actually is very good value on these trips - but only for certain clientele. Those who value all the extras and can also afford it.

I can tell you that we have had many repeat guests on these "Digi" trips and they come for the same reason... the "Extras".
James

Thanks James, most interesting.

regards - tom

I'm sorry I posted the EoA page with the rack rates, just trying to be helpful. But Ken my opinion is that you need hosing down with Prozac.

"hosing down with Prozac."
ROFLMAO

regards - tom

Assuming that you can work out the costs involved in someone else's business product from a cursory bit of research based on consumer prices for a different product strikes me as rather ignorant, or perhaps arrogant, not sure which.

I've been on a number of specialist trips where the price not only includes the regular accommodation and transport but also includes the tuition, advice and company of one or more experts (in photography, art and a number of other disciplines).

Firstly, in my experience, these trips often include extras that are not part of the basic package whether that be meals or drinks, less people in vehicles, increased luggage allowances for flights or even specialist activities such as snorkelling, hot air balloon rides etc.

Secondly, anyone who's given it more than 30 seconds of thought usually realises that the costs of transport, accommodation meals and so on for those experts are also part of the trip costs and that these costs raise the bottom line significantly, especially on small group departures, which is what most customers of such trips prefer.

Clearly, your 30% profit margin is pure fantasy.

And even if it wasn't, if there are businesses and individuals who are able to offer a product that is sufficiently valued and in demand from customers that they are able to make a 30% profit margin, you know what, good for them, I say! As a business person, I'd be full of admiration.

Thirdly, it's really for each individual customer to decide whether or not the premium charged for a trip in the company of experts is worth it to them. And it's up to them too, to decide which experts they value and which they don't.

I've done the same in the past myself, having gone ahead and paid a certain premium to travel on some trips but decided that the premium was just too high on others.

But then again, this thread isn't really about genuinely querying costs or profit margins, is it? It's about a personal grudge that you refuse to let go and which makes your latest user alias so transparent.

Hi folks,

Does this say something about the average IQ of the posters here that you assume I posted previous under the name of Sniktawk?

Ken got nothing to do with it.

I am only going to react on the remarks of James and Andy as I was hoping they would joining the discussion at some stage.

Tour leader accomodation comes at a small fraction of the original rack rate. Look f.e. at the rates of Mala Mala.

I can't see much more costs than the ones I estimated for your flight transfers as the dispatching is done out of the headquarters of Maun and it's easily to plan that air transfer in for part of the daily itinerary of that aeroplane.

Andy posted the cost of his trip with and without the transfer JNB-Maun on his website and the price difference was around a 1000 USD.

I don't think I have to pay for the whole plane as it happened to be the case I am the only one in it due to their planning of the different routes.

You probably book out the entire camp so I can't see any additional costs for extra accomodation.

I am very disappointed the people involved in the industry keep denying the 30% commission as I can produce written proof of it.

Why didn't EOA produced those rack rates at first? Price transparency and the safari industry aren't best friends I suppose. I assume that at some stage a reasonable number of clients were asking for a more detailed invoice instead of a price quotation showing one figure.

I agree with you that there could be a market for this kind of trips but I don't see it for keen amateur photographers as they prefer to have their own vehicle without the interference of other clients.

To my knowledge Andy hasn't been leading any safari for the camps mentioned in his July 2009 trip. So that's a lie - in fact Andy made his first steps into Botswana last year. But that doesn't make the case - you don't have Andy on your safari for his knowledge of the area but for his photographic skills. I can't see why he lied about it.

How many tour leaders did you had on your recent trip in December 2008? 2 or 3 I am just curious here.

Sefofane and WS are de iure separate companies but de facto they are the same.

I am claiming that most customers are paying too much for their lodge trips to Botswana (with or without photographers). And I just wanted to give a classic example here. The motive behind why I started those threads shouldn't be of concern of the people participating in it.

I am only asking one thing: instead of posting silly stuff like f.e. referring to Ken, I would like to invite you to share some of your knowledge by proving I got it completely wrong.

Cheers,

George

Tau, or whoever you are, it's clear from your knowledge of previous posts and posters (and even the details of their past trips) that you're an oldtime poster with a new alias, why not be transparent about it?

However, putting that aside,

You say that it's obvious people are paying "too much" for their lodge trips to Botswana.

But how does one define "too much"?

Is it down to commission percentages?
(Whether or not your 30% is wrong or right, and I doubt it's right, I still think pulling apart the EoA/AndyBiggs trip in particular is rude and rather pointed)

Is it down to price comparisons with similar lodges in other countries?

Is it down to your personal budget expectations?

Prices are set by supply and demand. If the market can bear them then they are obviously not "too much". Clearly, there are people who have been willing to pay the high prices prevalent in Botswana even though they may be able to pay less for comparable experiences in other safari destinations.

If sufficient sales don't materialise, then prices fall. We may well see that happen more and more in the next couple of years. And even if they do fall, that would not mean, to me, that they were too high before they fell, but rather that demand has changed.

As to whether it's acceptable for businesses to charge such high rates, even though it may be against my best interests, I say fair play to them. Again, one goes into business to make a profit. I'd rather that profit was at the expense of holidaymakers than standards within the lodge or treatment of staff and local communities.

Like many of those in the past who post anonymously and attack the business practices of specific individuals, tau/George/<whoever his other incarnations were> has become a troll.

I avoid and ignore trolls; nothing useful can come from trying to engage in discourse with them.

(I often disagreed with Ken/sniktawk, but he did have the decency to make known his identity.)

Rizzuto, except for when he accidentally revealed a second alias by signing off as Snik/Ken whilst logged in as someone else.
Before that, I too had assumed Ken to at least be the kind of person who stood by his own words with his own ID.
Interestingly, although I didn't mention his name/alias in either of my posts above, he must have recognised himself in my comments! He emailed me today to threaten that he would be contacting his lawyers! Might be a tough case given that I haven't mentioned his name in the posts which he dislikes!

Sorry to bother you but would it be possible to ask you to post a response on this denying his allegations on my behalf, something like this

"Andy I have no idea who Tau is nor do I care, what I do not like is you and your compatriots constant attempts to blame what you do not like to read on me, it is quite frankly pathetic, and once again demonstrates your rampant paranoia! Quite why you or others feel that I would waste my time questioning the prices for your safaris is titally beyond, I would not pay for you when I can go on Safari with a far better photographer for half the price!
If you continue to repeat these ill founded accusations I will take whatever steps are necessary to stop it."


Cheers

Ken


Since this is getting ugly, I will copy and paste Ken's email message to me.

PS: When I saw Ken's email this morning - I mentioned to him that the recepient of the message is on safari and he probably won't even be able to read it.

tau all I have to say:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Interesting that this "new" poster would immediately know "Ken=snitawk". You would have thought he would have asked,"Who's Ken?"

Tau

I'm beginning to think you've been unfairly accused, I don't think you're Ken at all.

Maybe we should have a sweepstake to figure out who could possibly want to make such posts.

Of course to do so we'd have to take certain character traits into account.

1. Aggressive
2. Duplicitous
3. Dishonest
4. Litigious

I thought the list would help, but to be honest that could be anyone in America, so maybe you're Rocco!

grateful for not bringing up my alias ;-)

div

Why does George / Ken hate Andy Biggs?

Andy seems a perfectly resonable individual who shares good information. Maybe they have crossed paths in photographic endeavours who knows.