lwinokur

I was wondering how the scale is tipped. When you guys go to Africa do you actually hunt yourselves? Or do you go just to see the animals in their natural habitats?

In Germany last year I met a young girl from Texas who was ranting and raving about how next time she goes to Africa her daddy said she could kill anything she wants. (Now just picture this said in the most Texan of accents)...

I really believe to each his own, but it just sounded so SAD to me coming out of this girl's mouth.

divewop

lwinokur...
The topic of "sport" hunting is frequently addressed on this forum and is a very touchy subject. If you do a search for hunting, you may be able to see where a lot of the fodorites stand on this topic.

I can't even begin to address how I feel about what the young girl said so I won't go there.

Suffice it to say, while I can't speak for the others on this board, I can't stress enough how much I think it is a horrible, horrible "sport", a term which I use loosely.

Without going on and on about the subject(which I could easily do) I love Africa for the wilderness, the different african cultures, and my awe of the animals in their natural habitats.

With the CITES convention just wrappping up in Bangkok, while there was some positive outcomes for conservation, unfortunately overall, I don't think it's looking too good for the wild animals of the world.

Too many "deep pockets" with too many "crooked politicians".

crefloors

I don't hunt, family never hunted etc. I have a hard time understanding the concept personally but unfortuneately, in many cases it's necessary and in some cases actually helpful..the tags support the maintenance of the open land etc, that provide life for the creatures that live there. We could certainly go on and on about this..do you eat meat? etc. I have become fairly pragmatic about the whole thing..I am not a vegetarian, and if a particular species is not on the endangered list or is not trapped (ranch raised mink for example) then I just live with it. This planet has terrible stresses put on it and it's going to get worse before it gets better..look at all the mercury warnings regarding seafood these days..hopefully we'll wake up some day very soon but in the meantime, even though I could never shoot a living creature, there is a place for it under controled circumstances.

Roccco

Let me start with this link of some very alive amazingly beautiful black maned lions that appear to be in the prime of their lives (there are no dead animals featured in this link)

http://www.africatrophyhunting.com/T...%3D4&Id=54

Unfortunately, these three black maned lions days are numbered. This website is already trying to find hunters that are waiting to pay up to shoot these beautiful animals. It is not as if there are 50 lions there and a couple of them will be unlucky enough to get shot. These exact three lions seem to be set aside.

What bothers me most is that in three years worth of safaris at some of the best game lodges around, I have not yet come across lions as beautiful as these three, yet their lives will end so some sicko can have his picture taken while holding up the dead lions head. Then what?

Now, if you want sick, take a look at this scumbag serial leopard killer that was not content with killing one leopard, but instead wiped off THREE leopards from the face of the Earth. I look at him with his sick smile and see nothing more than a killer that may as well have killed a human being:

http://www.africatrophyhunting.com/T...%3D4&Id=54

And, what exactly is the POINT in hunting giraffe?

http://www.africatrophyhunting.com/T...%3D4&Id=43

And this guy is a real piece of...work for being such a risktaker as in hunting down a VERVET MONKEY of all things. I cannot imagine taking aim at a monkey, killing it, and then posing proudly next to it, despite it being 1/15th my size.

http://www.africatrophyhunting.com/T...%3D4&Id=57

It is unfortunate that conservation must rely on the money from horrible people like those shown in the pictures above, but even I now understand the important role that hunting plays in conservation.

Like it or not, without hunting, wildlife viewing would be in far worse shape than it is today, as poaching would be even more rampant. However, for the life of me, I cannot understand the mindset of a person that gleefully kills these animals. It is really, really disturbing, if you ask me. Honestly, as bad as it sounds, I only wish for a hunting accident for these hunters. If people are not going to eat the animals that they kill, then I don't think they have any right to kill them, even if they are paying $25,000+ in order to engage in these legalized massacres.

divewop

Hunting for "sport" or "trophy" is totally unnecessary and just another way humans can feel "superior." It is an unjustifiable "sport."

But for some reason, I cannot seem to grasp the idea that hunting by "controlled" means is understandable or how it plays an important role in conservation.

Why does it play an important role in conservation? Only because we humans say it does. Who or what gives us the right to "hunt" or "cull" animals for food or sport or trophy or for whatever reason?

We give ourselves the right by justifying that the money is put to good use in these third world countries or humans need more farmland, the animals are encroaching etc...

It's all about what the humans need.

Bottom line is the real reasons are because humans need more space to live and because of human overpopulation.

Let's look at some statistics.

"Every second there is another 2.8 human births in the world and 1.6 acres of wild land is lost."

EVERY SECOND!

"Every 20 minutes, the world adds another 3,500 human lives but loses one or more entire species of animal or plant life - at least 27,000 species per year."

"A New Zealand scientist from the Central Institute of Technology says the present global population of six billion people is about 30% more than the earth's biological capacity to sustain present standards of living, but growth may not even stabilize at the projected 10 billion by the year 2050."

-Some staggering statistics! And all this doesn't include the loss of wildlife to hunters and hunting. These are some really brutal facts.

For more on overpopulation and it's impact on the world go to:

www.overpopulation.org

So while some folks justify hunting whether it is for "trophy/sport" or for money put back into society...none it would have to take place if it wasn't for the overpopulation of humans.

I understand this is a far from perfect world but I think the emphasis should be on getting human population growth under control and then one can really take an objective look at the true benefits of any type of hunting.

Roccco

Divewop,

I couldn't agree more.

While I may appear to be a hog with a big SUV, ultimately I will do far less damage to the environment than the guy in his little electric powered car but with three children that will also damage the environment.

Although my wife and I still have time to change our minds, we have no intention of having children, and if we ever wanted children, I would honestly first look to Southern Africa for a child to adopt. Personally, I get so irritated when I mention that to others and they exclaim with disbelief that the child will "really not be mine" and will not have my blood running through them. And???

Many people are just way too egotistical and feel the need to produce children, and it doesn't matter if they are American or from 3rd world countries.

I believe truly responsible Americans with the means to do so, instead of having children, would adopt a child from a 3rd world country, but I guess until I practice what I preach, I cannot really judge. For me, it would be more about saving a child than the fact that I am dying to have children, but I think this would not handicap my ability to provide the child the best possible family life.

In any event, population control will be a big challenge until it is practiced by all, from 3rd world nations to the USA. All that anyone that is truly interested in population control may do for sure, is to control how many humans they are responsible for bringing into the world.

lwinokur

Very interesting everyone...I wouldn't have thought about the overpopulation of people on earth to really effect hunting.

In regards to hunting, I do believe that for "sport" it's disgusting. Although, to use the animal for meat, etc (when using the whole animal) is justifiable in a way.

As for the issue of population control, we can all turn to our governments to place limits on the amount of children we're allowed to have like China does, but that would be infringing on our basic freedoms. For those of us who live in America and many other "freedom-loving" countries this would be viewed as just the beginning...SO, what do we do?

Judy_in_Calgary

>>>>>>SO, what do we do?<<<<<<

Well, Lwinokur, there are many of us who agonise over the question you pose.

I don't know the answers, but here are a couple of ideas that I think are worth investigating further.

Some people choose not to have children. Some members of this forum, most of whom are younger than I am, have decided not to have children. My two children are in their early twenties. When my husband and I were having children, we subscribed to ZPG (Zero Population Growth). The ZPG movement encouraged each couple to have only two children. The theory was that you and your partner would only replace yourselves, so would not put any additional stress on the environment. Unfortunately, from what I have read more recently, ZPG's notions were hopelessly out of date even by the time my husband and I were subscribing to them. Much as I love my children, if I was making this decision today, I would not have children.

Another extremely important thing that a person can do is fund and encourage the EDUCATION OF GIRLS in poor countries. There are numerous indications that this makes a HUGE, HUGE difference. If poor parents can afford to educate only some of their children, they often educate their sons and not their daughters. Yet the education of daughters makes an enormously positive impact on the survival rates of grandchildren and also has a beneficial effect on the birth rate. Study after study has shown that, if a girl receives even as little as three years of education, the number of children she will have will drop dramatically and the survival rate of the children whom she does have will increase dramatically.

But bringing down the birth rates in poor countries is not the only solution. There are many environmental studies that state that the average person in India or Africa consumes ONE FIFTIETH of the earth's resources in his or her lifetime that an average North American does.

The U.S.A. has 6% of the world's population, but is responsible for 25% of worldwide energy consumption, for example. Those kinds of statistics usually are more readily available for the U.S. than they are for Canada. I don't know what the equivalent statistics are for my country. However, knowing our lifestyle as I do, I'm sure we're right there in the same general ball park as the U.S., on a per capita basis.

It would take at least 6, and some scientists estimate 7, earth-like planets to support the current human population of the globe if everyone lived as a North American does.

I abhor sport hunting with every fibre of my being. Yet, from a wild animal's point of view, loss of habitat is no less devastating than being shot.

I live in a neighbourhood that is on the edge of Calgary. Occasionally we see a deer roaming around our neighbourhood, more rarely a coyote, and more rarely still a black bear. Late last night I was driving home from a function that I had attended, and a deer crossed the street right in front of me. Thank goodness I wasn't driving fast, and I was able to avoid her. But I wanted to cry that my human neighbours and I had encroached on her habitat.

I think it would have helped that deer if my family and I had been willing to live in more densely designed housing instead of the single family, detached house that we now occupy. Then we wouldn't have contributed as much to urban sprawl as we have done.

Oh well, I could go on and on discussing this all day, but other commitments call.

There have been times when threads that have not been strictly related to travel have degenerated into less than civil discussions.

Although I myself have joined the fray here by responding to your posts, I would suggest that this probably is not the most appropriate venue to discuss this issue. There are animal welfare, human overpopulation and a variety of other forums that have been created to deal specifically with these issues. If you are interested in pursuing the topics at greater length, I think those other forums will give you better opportunities for doing so than a travel forum can do.

But it does my heart good every time I encounter a person who cares about animals.

April

Personally I dislike animals in Africa being referred to as "game."

hamitzer

I know a guy - also from texas, he leads the world and went for hunting in Iraq!