mala mala or londolozi

Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:40 AM
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Like minds...
By the way, was in Philly last night for dinner with my son at a restaurant called Nan...French/Thai...not sure its worth the trip from India but from New Jersey it was great...they actually advertise its a BYOB but alas we forgot
Eric
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:48 AM
  #42  
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Eric: I think people learn a lot more about themselves in the process of staying technology free for a few days.....i learnt a few things....

most important thing....world moves on and survives....my cell phone, email, blackberry can wait a few days....nothing earthshaking whatsoever!!!

 
Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:55 AM
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Eric,

That is a well-considered response. My initial response was deliberately very brief and restrained. All I could think of was my genuine belief that no wilderness area has ever been improved by humans, and only those few who actually live in relative harmony with nature don't do it much harm.

But I do want to ask Julian now where he got the idea that I and others might want extended safaris, or any safaris for that matter, to be the exclusive domain of retirees. I suspect, Julian, your pomposity got the better of you.

I'm a retiree, but far from rich, and can never afford an extended safari. I don't think Pred is a retiree. Hari is not a retiree. My wife is not a retiree--she has just started a business (in her 60s) which she will have to partly suspend when we go on safari (she won't have to suspend taking nature photos! ). I think we all disagree with such mod-cons as cellphones and internet access on safari...not just because we would rather avoid technology creep, but also because we recognise that such developments will encourage more and more people to venture into the wilderness, and...the argument comes full circle...more people, more spoilage. You should know, Julian, that most people are poor learners. If they weren't poor learners, the world would be in far better shape.

Only one person who I've led on safari has wanted to know if she would have email access. It is rather telling that we nicknamed her 'Princess' before we ever heard of your 'Spa girl', Julian. The two of them could easily be related.

I quite approve of the idea that safari camps and lodges which are already well down the track of losing true wilderness should install spas for such people. And consulting rooms for you.

John

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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:59 AM
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It's funny, none of this technology was available to the extent it is today 10-15 years ago and people still availed themselves of wonderful trips to far off places...guess what...the sun came up the next day (at least somewhere) and life went on without missing a beat. I have learned, and I too have patients that need me and that I care deeply about, that delegating responsiblity is often difficult because it makes us feel vulnerable...as though we are not really as special as we think we are. The ONLY people that I feel totally beholden to is my family and they too, if need be, get along perfectly well on there own devices. All the camps have radio access to the outside world so in that rare circumstance that a family emergency would occur while I am in the bush I can be found.
Eric
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:09 AM
  #45  
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Yep....i've been up from 5 am this morning and i couldnt be quite as articulate as you both....point taken!!!

"the sun always comes up"
 
Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:11 AM
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John, sorry our posts crossed. I agree with you whole-heartedly and I am sorry if I was being redundant.
It is just that I have been passionate about Africa since childhood and while I know time marches on, it is often not for the better just the more convenient.
I understand that Julian's business may in some degree depend on clients who require 24/7 access and I guess that's ok if it doesn't infringe on all the rest of us. Unfortunately, it is those who are willing to pay that sometimes dictate the changes that occur in the landscape. I have absolutely nothing against people of means, and I consider myself very fortunate to be able to do the things I do but it always bothers me to think that because I am monetarily successful that I have a right to make the world into my image.
I love the adage..."Leave only footprints"
Eric
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:21 AM
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No problems, Eric.

Julian's other business requires growing numbers of people to go to Africa.

John
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 09:00 AM
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John you are right, I'm no where near retirement at 39 and quite likely will be in the field hustling until I'm 75 if I want to keep traveling. My wildlife consulting is actually a one man shop with a few clients totally dependent on me so I am in one of those difficult situations for going out of touch but as Eric and Hari have said I plan ahead and I find biologists I know at other companies, brief them on my projects and provide them with everything they need to be on call for my clients. It has worked out fine but only because I properly prepare my back up team and clients.

Eric and John have expressed the situation perfectly from my point of view. On a happy note I was able to spend a 4 day period in Utah and Arizona recently covering over 100 miles with no cell coverage what so ever. There are still big wildernesses out there but satellite tech is going to change the way it is visited if people demand that -- too bad, very sad for me.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 09:51 AM
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Hello John,

Please, let's keep the discussion civil. It's clear that you and I don't necessarily see eye to eye, but there's really no need to be unpleasant, or to imply that this discussion is somehow related to my business.

I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised by how strongly you apparently feel about preventing more people from coming to Africa -- after all, isn't sharing our love of Africa and encouraging more people to visit a large part of what this forum is about? You're a great source of information on Selinda, and I'm sure there are people who have visited Selinda who might not otherwise have done after reading your enthusiastic posts...but that does mean more people coming to Africa, doesn't it?

What I meant by extended safaris being the domain of retirees is that most working people can't take more than two (or if they're lucky three) weeks off at a time. Even in the UK a lot of people can't get more than two weeks in a row, which isn't a lot of time. Realistically, four or six-week safaris (which is what I meant by extended) are out of reach for most working people. If you're lucky enough to be retired, you can travel when you want and stay as long as you want.

I have a feeling my post about hoping that more people could experience Africa has been misinterpreted. I definitely don't want to see herds of package tourists in minibuses swarming over the Okavango -- that's not what I was suggesting at all.

Nor do I want to see TVs in the tents or in the bar, or to come into the lounge and see people tapping away on their laptops.

However, I do think that if having the ability to check email once a week means that people can stay longer and really experience Africa (rather than trying to cram everything into a two-week holiday) that would be a good thing. I also think that so long as said email-checking takes place in the privacy of one's own room there's no reason it should affect anyone else's experience.

In the end, perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this point, which is fine. The world would be a dull place if everyone agreed.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:15 AM
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Sorry...hit post by accident.

As I'm sure Bill knows, it's often hard to convince people that conservation and the environment matter, because those ideas are so abstract. I hope that if a few more people are able to visit the world's wild places (African and otherwise) and see what those words actually mean, in full living breathing reality, they will then be willing to support efforts to preserve wilderness areas around the world. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I believe in the power of the wilderness to touch people and move them.

In the end, whatever our philosophical disagreements, I think it's important to remember that all of us -- Eric, Bill, Hari, you, and I -- love Africa and its wild places. I never forget that being able to spend time in the bush is an immense privilege, whether it's one week or six, and I'm sure that you don't either.

Cheers,
Julian
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 11:17 AM
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Julian, I'm sure that you can't possibly believe that "having the ability to check email once a week" is a realistic possibility. If a camp offers access to e-mail, those who are interested are much more likely to check every day.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if an increasing number of camps offer online access, including a common room for online access. And I will be equally non-surprised when this forum sees more and more "Here's what we saw today" reports.

Some people would be attracted to such camps; others (including myself, and apparently several responders in this thread) would likely go out of their way to avoid such places.

Part of the bliss of safari is the uninterrupted removal from the stresses of everyday life. For me, the "uninterrupted" part is huge.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Ditto
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 01:30 PM
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Hi Rizzuto,

Maybe I'm just more optimistic about human nature, but I really hope that a balance can be struck where people who need to be connected can be without impacting the experience of those who don't wish to be.

In this sense Rattrays is a good model. The idea of seeing a 'cyber-lounge' next to the normal lounge makes me shudder -- IMO in-room access is much less intrusive. Personally, checking email once a week would be fine for me -- it's up to each individual to decide how often they want to check. As long as it doesn't impact on my experience, it wouldn't concern me whether the person in the room next to mine checks his email daily or not. What he does in the privacy of his own tent is not any of my business -- he's not bothering me one way or the other.

For some reason I seem to have ended up as the defender of technology on this thread, which is not really an accurate reflection of how I feel on the subject. I go to the bush specifically to escape from the daily stresses and concerns of my life at home, just like the others who have posted here.

However, I would also like to be able to stay out there longer, which means being able to check in. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my work there are certain decisions which cannot be delegated (and no, I am not talking about the new venture -- Sharon can handle anything that might happen on that front). I'm sure no one's interested in the details, but suffice it to say that it's one of the downsides to being one of the only specialists in a tiny field.

As Matt has pointed out, some people would find it easier to relax knowing that they could check in, whereas others might find the connectivity an impediment to relaxing (in which case they should have the option to leave it turned off). But I'd hope that there is room for both types in Africa.

As you say there will no doubt be camps for those who want basic internet access and camps for those who would prefer to pretend that the internet doesn't exist (at least for a few weeks). Different strokes for different folks, as some might say.

Cheers,
Julian
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
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"Julian, I'm sure that you can't possibly believe that "having the ability to check email once a week" is a realistic possibility. If a camp offers access to e-mail, those who are interested are much more likely to check every day."- rizzuto

That is a big part of the problem; another thing which Julian should know. Give most people a foot, they'll want a yard. I guess I am against more people going to Africa, or to any other wilderness areas anywhere in the world; people, that is, who have to be enticed there by such trappings as air-conditioning, modern communications, and- yes- spas. A few such people will improve their appreciation of nature, but most will care very little about what they see. They go for the thrills and to be able to skite about it back home (or via cellphones and email before they get home, if they can). Wilderness areas cannot sustain such traffic. Yes, I promote certain safari destinations and probably encourage more people to visit them because I like to share what I love. But I know where to draw the line. I can assure you that once Selinda gets email, I will no longer be recommending it. In fact, I'm already luke warm about the main camp because it is getting too big and luxurious.

And please, Julian, I will try to be more 'civil' (actually, you have no idea what uncivil is), if you try to stop making such ridiculous generalisations as: If you're lucky enough to be retired, you can travel when you want and stay as long as you want . Oh, how I wish that were true. You certainly live in a different world.

John
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 02:01 PM
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HI John,

I guess I'm just a bit more optimisic about human nature. I'm sorry if my reference to retired people offended you -- the retirees I know certainly have a lot more freedom in their schedules than working people do, and love being able to travel for extended periods of time. I can hardly keep track of where some of my retired family members are because they're on extended trips with no set itinerary. It's one of the things I look forward to most about being retired, though unfortunately that's quite some time away.

Cheers,
Julian
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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 02:03 PM
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I have no interest in reading all of these threads, but I don't understand why anyone would find wireless Internet, which would permit a traveller to stay in touch with her office, intrusive. Some of us do, perhaps sadly to some of you, have jobs where we are, frankly, indispensible for extended time periods.

I, too, would prefer not to visit a lodge with an EasyNet Internet cafe in the reception area, but wireless Internet access is invisible to those who elect to avoid it.

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Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 03:10 PM
  #57  
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No caller ID, cellphone, blackberry, crackberry, no reach out and touch any berry. When I walk out the door, whether at home or when traveling "I'm on the road."

Have to agree with OP, "give them a foot....." Getting more people to visit and appreciate Africa, doesn't necessitate being connected. If that's all so important, let them pick another destination with my blessing.

Think how often the public still has to be reminded to "shut themselves off" in the movies, theatre, church, restaurant..., and still they forget.

However, for those who can discretely access the outside world (wireless) in the quiet of their room or tent, fine... but for sure, I wouldn't be selecting that particular lodge or camp for my stay.

I too have client's who may need my services while I'm in Africa, but all know before departing that I'm unreachable when out in the bush. Even though family knows where to reach me, they're told "under penalty of death, not to even think about it." And, if death, not much I can do for the dearly departed.

My travel time, specifically to Africa is too valuable for technology to invade.

Guess, this too is very personal!


 
Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 06:16 PM
  #58  
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"give people a foot and they want a yard"...i dont think providing internet is just going to allow people to check email. While you are online, why not check the news, check on sports etc etc., btw, why not just watch all of this on tv in ur tent???

This is an insane discussion.....

Julian, the only thing i agree is different strokes for different folks. There are going to be camps that cater to the safari crowd that just wants to "get away". It's not for the soft......

Btw, sending more people to Africa? i think all camps in most destinations are jam-packed thru the year anyway. The only way to send more ppl to Africa is to make intimate camps large and have more and more camps inside concessions.......i dont buy it....

I'm done with this discussion...bit too tedious.......

Hari
 
Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 06:32 PM
  #59  
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And extended safari......even if i had the time and money, i wont go on anything more than 15 days....personally, i would be too inactive. Cant be in the jeep and eat all day long for any longer period.

Yes, i guess i havent discovered the Zambian walking safaris yet....

Cheers all.......
 
Old Feb 3rd, 2007, 06:41 PM
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Hope this isn't out of place as we didn't visit Mala Mala so can't offer a comparision with Londolozi but we did visit Londo, Kirkman's and Exeter in August and can comment on leopard prospects. At that time leopards were scarce at Londo, one sighting in 8 game drives, although by the week after we left sightings picked up. The leopards were fantastic at Kirkman's and we were told that before CCA took it over if guests booking three nights didn't see a leopard, they would receive a refund. They never had to pay any guests. We saw at least one leopard on each of our 5 drives. Accomodations there were not on a level with Londo and neither were the rangers. However CCA should have things up to speed fairly soon. River Lodge at Exeter was on a par with Londo for accomodations and the rangers were close and are probably now of equal quality. We also saw leopards at Exeter but out of 5 drives we saw them on three. If I was to return, I would go to Exeter (my wife would choose to go to Kirkman's).
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