Lions v. Buffalo -- where did your support lie?
Dec 7th, 2008, 01:47 PM
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Lions v. Buffalo -- where did your support lie?
I have just watched Alwyn's video clip of the lions and the buffalo ("Okavango Drama"
, and I am wondering about my reaction to it. I viewed it with a mixture of fascination, horror, awe, hope (for the lions?; for the buffalo?)and, finally, a sense of inevitability.
I guess that this type of event is something that most people who go on safari hope to encounter and, for the lions, it will be as natural as having a drink of water.
Watching it though, whose side were you on, or were you able to maintain complete detachment?
, and I am wondering about my reaction to it. I viewed it with a mixture of fascination, horror, awe, hope (for the lions?; for the buffalo?)and, finally, a sense of inevitability.I guess that this type of event is something that most people who go on safari hope to encounter and, for the lions, it will be as natural as having a drink of water.
Watching it though, whose side were you on, or were you able to maintain complete detachment?
Dec 7th, 2008, 02:55 PM
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Little did you know this was a touchy subject. Check out this thread.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35003183
To answer your question, Bon Vivant, by the time I saw this on the net and on TV, I knew the ending so I was not able to really route.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35003183
To answer your question, Bon Vivant, by the time I saw this on the net and on TV, I knew the ending so I was not able to really route.
Dec 7th, 2008, 04:18 PM
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Back to BV - if one has watched any amount of Nat Geo or other wildlife TV this is really not new. I watch it in fascination thinking how important it is to both animals, life or death for both.
I have not seen lions kill a buffalo but like many have seen lions feed on a buffalo kill. I have seen lion kill puku and like that buffalo start eating them alive. I saw a leopard kill an Impala but the impala was first suffocated to death before becoming dinner. I guess in most cases I favor the hunter but wish death would come quicker for the victim.
regards - tom
I have not seen lions kill a buffalo but like many have seen lions feed on a buffalo kill. I have seen lion kill puku and like that buffalo start eating them alive. I saw a leopard kill an Impala but the impala was first suffocated to death before becoming dinner. I guess in most cases I favor the hunter but wish death would come quicker for the victim.
regards - tom
Dec 7th, 2008, 06:59 PM
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Hi Bon_Vivant
I am probably in the minority when I say I really do not wish to see a kill. If it happens, then I am fine with it, especially if the kill is quick. Certainly I have no problem with predators killing and I must say I usually want the predator to win as I know how many hunts fail, and a good meal can bring them back to good health if they have missed a few meals. For me, it helps if it is a male that is the prey.
I have not watched the video nor shall I. I know it happens I do not need to see it!
Kind regards
Kaye
I am probably in the minority when I say I really do not wish to see a kill. If it happens, then I am fine with it, especially if the kill is quick. Certainly I have no problem with predators killing and I must say I usually want the predator to win as I know how many hunts fail, and a good meal can bring them back to good health if they have missed a few meals. For me, it helps if it is a male that is the prey.
I have not watched the video nor shall I. I know it happens I do not need to see it!
Kind regards
Kaye
Dec 7th, 2008, 07:10 PM
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Actually, since there are usually so many buffalo around, I "root" for the lions -- these animals aren't killing for "sport" it is for their survival! I would watch a live kill on safari with fascination, although I don't know how long it would hold my interest, once they start feeding....that gets kind of macabre.
Dec 7th, 2008, 08:36 PM
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I am one of those who don't watch these clips. While on our first safari this Oct. I told guide I didn't care to see a kill and my husband and 2 sons agreed. If this was the clip about the little buffalo getting caught by lions, slipping into the water, then being grabbed by a crocadile and being part of the tug of war between the two predators, I did see that on Nat. Geographic. I rooted for the victim and only watched as I was forewarned about the outcome. Watch "Battle at Kruger" on youtube, its really good. I do realize the predators need to eat, I wish them luck and hope all their kills are quick with the least amt. of suffering for the animal that is the meal. I became a vegetarian because of the prolonged suffering of the animals we eat, at least in the wild they are free to enjoy a natural life until they become dinner.
Dec 8th, 2008, 03:34 AM
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I posted a reply under Alwyn's video but want to reply to this also.
I always feel bad for the prey, I can't help but feel for the pain they must be in. Most of the buffalo are being eaten while they are still alive, as are many other prey. That is what I find hard. But I also know that if the predators don't catch their prey they don't eat and they die.
Nature is hard. But at least these animals don't kill for sport. They do it purely to survive and like someone else said, the prey do at least get to live a free life until they become prey.
I too became a vegetarian after viewing video of how we keep and kill our food.
I went on a safari recently, and before I went I watched lots of safari kill videos on You Tube to prepare myself in case I was fortunate (?) enough to witness a kill when I was away. When I WAS on safari I did not witness a kill but did see the ensuing feast. At the time I wished I had seen the kill. But Alwyn's video really affected me, I think more than the other video's I had watched because after being in Africa with the actual sights, sounds, and smells it was so much more real. Now I am glad I didn't see the actual kill.
I can't stand the suffering of the prey.
Our camp manager told me that another couple who were there in the summer were on the scene when a pride of lionesses brought down a wildebeest while she was giving birth and they killed both the mother and the baby. The camp manager said the women was in tears and asked the driver/guide to leave as she couldn't bear to watch any more as the noises they made were horrible.
I know I couldn't have watched that. The noises and the smell, no thank you.
Before I went to Africa I could handle watching kills, but now I have been, strangely I find it much more disturbing and difficult.
I always feel bad for the prey, I can't help but feel for the pain they must be in. Most of the buffalo are being eaten while they are still alive, as are many other prey. That is what I find hard. But I also know that if the predators don't catch their prey they don't eat and they die.
Nature is hard. But at least these animals don't kill for sport. They do it purely to survive and like someone else said, the prey do at least get to live a free life until they become prey.
I too became a vegetarian after viewing video of how we keep and kill our food.
I went on a safari recently, and before I went I watched lots of safari kill videos on You Tube to prepare myself in case I was fortunate (?) enough to witness a kill when I was away. When I WAS on safari I did not witness a kill but did see the ensuing feast. At the time I wished I had seen the kill. But Alwyn's video really affected me, I think more than the other video's I had watched because after being in Africa with the actual sights, sounds, and smells it was so much more real. Now I am glad I didn't see the actual kill.
I can't stand the suffering of the prey.
Our camp manager told me that another couple who were there in the summer were on the scene when a pride of lionesses brought down a wildebeest while she was giving birth and they killed both the mother and the baby. The camp manager said the women was in tears and asked the driver/guide to leave as she couldn't bear to watch any more as the noises they made were horrible.
I know I couldn't have watched that. The noises and the smell, no thank you.
Before I went to Africa I could handle watching kills, but now I have been, strangely I find it much more disturbing and difficult.
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:21 AM
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So, let's say I'm on a game drive with 5 others and we are fortunate enough to come upon this scene unfolding. But two of the 5 guests want to leave the scene, they can't take it. Do we leave or stay? What if 3 of the 5 want to leave? What if I'm the only one that wants to stay, the other 4 want to leave?
regards - tom
regards - tom
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM
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So, let's say I'm on a game drive with 5 others and we are fortunate enough to come upon this scene unfolding. But 2 of the 5 guests want to leave the scene, they can't take it. Do we leave or stay? What if 3 of the 5 want to leave? What if I'm the only one that wants to stay, the other 4 want to leave?
regards - tom
regards - tom
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM
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Tom
I'm with you on this, I believe that if you're in the bush you should be prepared for every NatGeo moment that happens. I would be pissed if someone wanted to leave a sighting and got their way.
I remember at MM years ago, a woman was terrified of dogs, so when we were watching dogs harassing a hyena, she wanted to leave!! Fortunately our ranger found a partial case of deafness and she didn't push it, hopefully influenced by the delight of me and DW for whom dogs were a first.
If you can't take nature in the raw, then I believe you'd be better off at the San Diego Wild Animal Park or with Disney in Florida.
Matt
I'm with you on this, I believe that if you're in the bush you should be prepared for every NatGeo moment that happens. I would be pissed if someone wanted to leave a sighting and got their way.
I remember at MM years ago, a woman was terrified of dogs, so when we were watching dogs harassing a hyena, she wanted to leave!! Fortunately our ranger found a partial case of deafness and she didn't push it, hopefully influenced by the delight of me and DW for whom dogs were a first.
If you can't take nature in the raw, then I believe you'd be better off at the San Diego Wild Animal Park or with Disney in Florida.
Matt
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:33 AM
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Agree, then what do you say to the guests who want to leave? "Don't watch"? What if the guide believes in "majority rule" and starts to leave, do you say anything?
regards - tom
regards - tom
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:35 AM
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Ok, then what do you say to the guests who want to leave? "Don't watch"? What if the guide believes in "majority rule" and starts to leave, do you say anything?
If the guide leaves, the least I would do is complain to management and request another guide.
regards - tom
If the guide leaves, the least I would do is complain to management and request another guide.
regards - tom
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:37 AM
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Ok, then what do you say to the guests who want to leave? "Don't watch"? What if the guide believes in "majority rule" and starts to leave, do you say anything? When does "majority rule"?
If the guide leaves, the least I would do is complain to management and request another guide.
regards - tom
If the guide leaves, the least I would do is complain to management and request another guide.
regards - tom
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:42 AM
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I think it would have to be a dont watch, and a very polite reasoned, but this is nature, the Lions have to eat blah, blah.
If the ranger left the scene, I would want to be put in a different vehicle.
If the ranger left the scene, I would want to be put in a different vehicle.
Dec 8th, 2008, 08:55 AM
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I vote for the prey. =) More exciting that way.
My opinion is that, if you're going to go on a safari, you have to expect to see kills. If you're squeamish about that, you should be up front about it. Tell your tour operator to put a note on your file. Tell your car-mates about it before you head out in case they want to see kills and need to find a different guide/car, if possible.
If all that's not possible, you should be, if not willing, at least able to sit through the take-down, and the beginning of the eating. After that though, I do not think it unreasonable to ask to go shortly after.
Then there's also getting a private tour to ensure you see or do not see what you want.
My opinion is that, if you're going to go on a safari, you have to expect to see kills. If you're squeamish about that, you should be up front about it. Tell your tour operator to put a note on your file. Tell your car-mates about it before you head out in case they want to see kills and need to find a different guide/car, if possible.
If all that's not possible, you should be, if not willing, at least able to sit through the take-down, and the beginning of the eating. After that though, I do not think it unreasonable to ask to go shortly after.
Then there's also getting a private tour to ensure you see or do not see what you want.
Dec 8th, 2008, 09:07 AM
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So, let's say I'm on a game drive with 5 others and we are fortunate enough to come upon this scene unfolding. But two of the 5 guests want to leave the scene, they can't take it. Do we leave or stay? What if 3 of the 5 want to leave? What if I'm the only one that wants to stay, the other 4 want to leave?
regards - tom
Tom in my opinion, if you are on a safari with a group of other people and something happens that I don't want to see, I don't watch. I don't force everyone to go back just because I can't watch. But that is the reason I went on a private safari, so I didn't have to take the chance someone else's opinion would spoil my game viewing.
I said I wouldn't want to watch, but in hindsight, I would have watched, but it would not have been something I would have enjoyed. It would be a case of 'this is life and this is what happens every day, and you are privileged to be able to see it'.
Then I would have gone back and cried.
regards - tom
Tom in my opinion, if you are on a safari with a group of other people and something happens that I don't want to see, I don't watch. I don't force everyone to go back just because I can't watch. But that is the reason I went on a private safari, so I didn't have to take the chance someone else's opinion would spoil my game viewing.
I said I wouldn't want to watch, but in hindsight, I would have watched, but it would not have been something I would have enjoyed. It would be a case of 'this is life and this is what happens every day, and you are privileged to be able to see it'.
Then I would have gone back and cried.
