How safe is Egypt after 9/11/2012
Sep 23rd, 2012, 12:46 AM
#61
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Favor - to clear things up, I AM NOT "running away". I am choosing to stop arguing with you.
Actually you and I agree that killing is wrong. Somewhere you seem to have come up with the idea that I thought killing was OK. It's NOT OK.
Also, I'm NOT holding the filmmaker responsible for the deaths. He didn't kill anyone, but I think he incited the violence and I think he intended to do so. There is some responsibility there I think he should accept. Do you think he made this film in the name of art? Or what do you think his motovations were?
AND Thank You MD for your constand voice of reason!
Actually you and I agree that killing is wrong. Somewhere you seem to have come up with the idea that I thought killing was OK. It's NOT OK.
Also, I'm NOT holding the filmmaker responsible for the deaths. He didn't kill anyone, but I think he incited the violence and I think he intended to do so. There is some responsibility there I think he should accept. Do you think he made this film in the name of art? Or what do you think his motovations were?
AND Thank You MD for your constand voice of reason!
Sep 23rd, 2012, 05:37 AM
#63
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Debbie - You cannot simultaneously say "I'm NOT holding the filmmaker responsible" and then say there is "some responsibility there I think he should accept". This is the unrealistic split personality of your position.
I do not know why the filmmaker made the movie. It could have been to incite trouble. It could have been in anger over some slight he felt from someone in Islam. He might have felt wronged by some former wife or girlfriend. He might be a Coptic Christian who feels the story needed to be told. He may be a free speech advocate. He maybe thought he could make a lot of money. He might have wanted publicity. He might be a radical Muslim and he wanted a vehicle his fellows could jump on. Only that person knows for sure. You cannot point a divining rod at someone and know what they think. The rod points where the examiner pushes it.
Ultimately it's irrelevant why the movie was made. That's why I called it a McGuffin. Some radical Muslims want to impose their Islamic sensibilities on the whole world. They want to make anti-Islam movies, thought, works of art, books, or what have you against the law. They want others anti-Islamic thoughts to be justification for destroying those others. This directly contradicts the free speech and expression rights of the USA and much of the West. To retreat from that is to truly go backwards in humanity's ongoing quest to be better humans.
If a religion is so brittle that it can't stand outside pressure then it's time for that religion to have a reformation. It certainly is not time for the whole world to walk on eggshells and worry about what might be the next affront that will set off radical Muslims. That is a game only the aggrieved can win. South Park, Piss-Christ, ugly cartoons, and all the rest are not going to bring down Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, or whatever "ism" you ascribe to. Likewise, legally imposed "respect" is rotten wood that is not suitable for building anything.
Anyway, that's my position. Good luck to you.
I do not know why the filmmaker made the movie. It could have been to incite trouble. It could have been in anger over some slight he felt from someone in Islam. He might have felt wronged by some former wife or girlfriend. He might be a Coptic Christian who feels the story needed to be told. He may be a free speech advocate. He maybe thought he could make a lot of money. He might have wanted publicity. He might be a radical Muslim and he wanted a vehicle his fellows could jump on. Only that person knows for sure. You cannot point a divining rod at someone and know what they think. The rod points where the examiner pushes it.
Ultimately it's irrelevant why the movie was made. That's why I called it a McGuffin. Some radical Muslims want to impose their Islamic sensibilities on the whole world. They want to make anti-Islam movies, thought, works of art, books, or what have you against the law. They want others anti-Islamic thoughts to be justification for destroying those others. This directly contradicts the free speech and expression rights of the USA and much of the West. To retreat from that is to truly go backwards in humanity's ongoing quest to be better humans.
If a religion is so brittle that it can't stand outside pressure then it's time for that religion to have a reformation. It certainly is not time for the whole world to walk on eggshells and worry about what might be the next affront that will set off radical Muslims. That is a game only the aggrieved can win. South Park, Piss-Christ, ugly cartoons, and all the rest are not going to bring down Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, or whatever "ism" you ascribe to. Likewise, legally imposed "respect" is rotten wood that is not suitable for building anything.
Anyway, that's my position. Good luck to you.
Sep 23rd, 2012, 07:44 AM
#64
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I think we might be on the same cruise. I called the cruise line earlier and they told me they had redirected the September route to two different places. The operator did not know if the October cruise would be redirected but to check the website for updates. She also said that someone would call a few days before sailing if any changes were scheduled. I looked into booking tours through local companies to keep the $$ in Egypt but booked through the cruise line in case we don't go there. I ended up doing the same thing in Jerusalem. We are going to miss out on some of the destination areas booking through the cruise line but I was thinking I could get refund if... I'm looking forward to seeing a little more of this world!
Sep 24th, 2012, 09:23 PM
#65
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It is not illegal to leave matches an a large can of gasoline on your front step - but then, should you be surprised and blameless if someone starts a fire in a building and someone dies?
Making a film that badly insults the cherished religious beliefs of a billion people may be a perfectly legal act in the USA - but is it morally right to do something like that, knowing that it could provoke a few of those to commit murder? Is provoking murder morally OK just because it is not illegal?
The laws do not prevent bad behaviour, they simply limit some excesses of it.
Making a film that badly insults the cherished religious beliefs of a billion people may be a perfectly legal act in the USA - but is it morally right to do something like that, knowing that it could provoke a few of those to commit murder? Is provoking murder morally OK just because it is not illegal?
The laws do not prevent bad behaviour, they simply limit some excesses of it.
Sep 25th, 2012, 07:24 PM
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Does this mean that we should walk on egg shells and censor everything we do or say in order not to offend Islamic fanatics or terrorists? We give up some of our freedom by giving into extremism. We have to stay firm and strong and refuse to give in to the ignorance of extremism. By self censoring we lose our freedom.
Sep 25th, 2012, 09:54 PM
#67
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No. Don't walk on eggshells, but don't tramp manure all over the nice clean carpets even if that is your right...
Think of it as the golden rule:
If someone asks you to do something that is offensive to you, that you would not ask them to do, then they are infriging on you. However, if you blatantly and deeply offend and insult someone, why should you expect them to act calmly and rationally? If you expect others to temper their actions, you should be prepared to do the same.
The Danish cartoons, for example, were political cartoons with a purpose - to comment on the situation in the Islamic world. That is simply free speech, offensive but their right and making an honest point. The video, or at least the english version that I got about half-way through, was offensive and deliberately insulting for no discernable purpose. Similarly - I haven't seen the Hebdo cartoons, but the descriptions sound equally offensive rather than making a point.
Perhaps the distinction might be similar to the distinction between art and pornography. They can both show naked women, they can both offend some people completely. (I'm thinking of Ashcroft standing in front of what looked like a movie Oscar statue, but with drapery hung on it because he was a prude) However, the distinction is as much in the intent as the artistry of the final product.
The liberation of the Islamic world from extremist agitators will not happen with the West continually insulting them. As long as we are giving ourselves the role of enemy provocateur, we simply give extremists - the Islamic equivalent of the Tea Party - someone to hold up as the enemy. Openness will happen when the same forces that created the Arab Spring look at the extreme demands of the more strict self-proclaimed moralists and decide for themselves, that enough is enough. The actions of the clerics in Iran, for example, guarantee that when their time also comes, the group taking over will not be a form of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Think of it as the golden rule:
If someone asks you to do something that is offensive to you, that you would not ask them to do, then they are infriging on you. However, if you blatantly and deeply offend and insult someone, why should you expect them to act calmly and rationally? If you expect others to temper their actions, you should be prepared to do the same.
The Danish cartoons, for example, were political cartoons with a purpose - to comment on the situation in the Islamic world. That is simply free speech, offensive but their right and making an honest point. The video, or at least the english version that I got about half-way through, was offensive and deliberately insulting for no discernable purpose. Similarly - I haven't seen the Hebdo cartoons, but the descriptions sound equally offensive rather than making a point.
Perhaps the distinction might be similar to the distinction between art and pornography. They can both show naked women, they can both offend some people completely. (I'm thinking of Ashcroft standing in front of what looked like a movie Oscar statue, but with drapery hung on it because he was a prude) However, the distinction is as much in the intent as the artistry of the final product.
The liberation of the Islamic world from extremist agitators will not happen with the West continually insulting them. As long as we are giving ourselves the role of enemy provocateur, we simply give extremists - the Islamic equivalent of the Tea Party - someone to hold up as the enemy. Openness will happen when the same forces that created the Arab Spring look at the extreme demands of the more strict self-proclaimed moralists and decide for themselves, that enough is enough. The actions of the clerics in Iran, for example, guarantee that when their time also comes, the group taking over will not be a form of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Sep 26th, 2012, 04:31 AM
#69
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MD - You are claiming that being insulted or deeply offended is a reason for mayhem? You can forgive this in a 10 year old, only the emotionally stunted or physically feeble would abide this in an adult.
Wading into the art vs. pornography debate doesn't get you any further with grownups. The distinction between art and pornography is clearly in the eye of the beholder and the age in which they live. If you think the distinction is so clear you must think you're Solomon. But of course you must be, as you can see into people's hearts and decide whether someone's art work is puerile, political, or purposeless.
You've got the recipe for liberating Islam from extremist agitators backwards. Abandoning free speech and free expression will not lead to more freedom for anyone. Western criticism and insults are not preventing moderate Islam from emerging. If the West kowtows to radical Islam, it will only further empower radical Islam. Lack of free expression and debate within Islam is keeping radical Islam energized. Like the Papacy in the Middle Ages, radical Islam brooks no dissent.
Wading into the art vs. pornography debate doesn't get you any further with grownups. The distinction between art and pornography is clearly in the eye of the beholder and the age in which they live. If you think the distinction is so clear you must think you're Solomon. But of course you must be, as you can see into people's hearts and decide whether someone's art work is puerile, political, or purposeless.
You've got the recipe for liberating Islam from extremist agitators backwards. Abandoning free speech and free expression will not lead to more freedom for anyone. Western criticism and insults are not preventing moderate Islam from emerging. If the West kowtows to radical Islam, it will only further empower radical Islam. Lack of free expression and debate within Islam is keeping radical Islam energized. Like the Papacy in the Middle Ages, radical Islam brooks no dissent.
Sep 26th, 2012, 04:59 AM
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Favor: No, you`re confusing rights and good behaviour. Being insulted is not a reason for mayhem, but are you surprised that in a nation of 84 million (not mention a billion worldwide) there are a thousand who either react like a 10-year-old or join in the `fun` because they like to cause trouble? Heck, you can find that in any sporting event world-wide.
You`re the one not getting it. Just because you ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED to say or do something does not mean it is good behaviour or the right thing to do. Just because it`s our right to tell lies and half truths does not mean we should. Like the boy who cried `wolf`, if we persist in gratuitous insults to a people, they aren`t going to listen when we tell them how to improve their lives either.
Of course, when you see stupid protests like the one against the NYC cutural center, we send mixed messages - In America you have freedom of religion, and you can do whatever you want with the property you own, unless you are Muslim and want to build a mosque... Do you think that message is lost on the Middle East? Do you think they think of America as a shining beacon of freedom, or a bunch of hypocrites? Let him who is without sin...
Gratuitous insults to the religion of Islam simply force the moderates to choose between their religion and the people who insult them. If we stand back and leave it to them, as happened with the Arab Spring, they will soon figure out that freedom is the best choice.
You`re the one not getting it. Just because you ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED to say or do something does not mean it is good behaviour or the right thing to do. Just because it`s our right to tell lies and half truths does not mean we should. Like the boy who cried `wolf`, if we persist in gratuitous insults to a people, they aren`t going to listen when we tell them how to improve their lives either.
Of course, when you see stupid protests like the one against the NYC cutural center, we send mixed messages - In America you have freedom of religion, and you can do whatever you want with the property you own, unless you are Muslim and want to build a mosque... Do you think that message is lost on the Middle East? Do you think they think of America as a shining beacon of freedom, or a bunch of hypocrites? Let him who is without sin...
Gratuitous insults to the religion of Islam simply force the moderates to choose between their religion and the people who insult them. If we stand back and leave it to them, as happened with the Arab Spring, they will soon figure out that freedom is the best choice.
Sep 26th, 2012, 06:03 AM
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MD Rights and good behavior are seperate. I can curse someone, it is my freedom of speech yet not good behavior To kowtow before islamic terrorists is to give in to giving up a freedom that is guaranteed i our constitution. In The muslim countries there is no freedom of speech as in ours To respect their rights is correct. However the Muslim extremists MUST respect our rights and we do not have to modify our rights to satisfy religious exremists.
Sep 26th, 2012, 06:36 AM
#73
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I did not ever suggest that the filmmaker engaged in "good behavior". I get the issue quite well. You apparently don't.
The filmmaker is not a "we", as in America and the West has insulted Islam because of the film, which is the ostensible reason to riot. Just because we have freedom of speech does not mean "we", as in all of us in the United States of America, have agreed to insult or have insulted Islam through the film. You cannot corporately hold a people responsible for the actions of a few members of that people. We are constantly reminded of this fact by the groups decrying "Islamophobia".
If however Islam contends that the simple fact that we have freedom of speech is an insult to Islam, which more and more appears to be the case, then we have clearly come down to a fundamental question. Does Islam's "right" to not be offended supersede free speech and free expression rights. I don't believe any religion has the right to not be gratuitously or even studiously insulted.
This would amount to establishing a de-facto state religion because Islam is the only religion which has decided it doesn't want to handle being insulted.
The filmmaker is not a "we", as in America and the West has insulted Islam because of the film, which is the ostensible reason to riot. Just because we have freedom of speech does not mean "we", as in all of us in the United States of America, have agreed to insult or have insulted Islam through the film. You cannot corporately hold a people responsible for the actions of a few members of that people. We are constantly reminded of this fact by the groups decrying "Islamophobia".
If however Islam contends that the simple fact that we have freedom of speech is an insult to Islam, which more and more appears to be the case, then we have clearly come down to a fundamental question. Does Islam's "right" to not be offended supersede free speech and free expression rights. I don't believe any religion has the right to not be gratuitously or even studiously insulted.
This would amount to establishing a de-facto state religion because Islam is the only religion which has decided it doesn't want to handle being insulted.
Sep 26th, 2012, 06:50 AM
#74
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wow been out of here for a while, is this still the Egypt forum or did I walk onto the set of a newsnight debate
I think everyone had their say, and really this is a travel forum and I think that CC answered the question - yes Egypt seems to be safe now and it was a small pocket of people causing the troubles there (as it often is). I think it would be a good idea to draw a line under it now.
CC kindly gave her opinion on the situation there and all seems to be fine there now.
Just a thought!
I think everyone had their say, and really this is a travel forum and I think that CC answered the question - yes Egypt seems to be safe now and it was a small pocket of people causing the troubles there (as it often is). I think it would be a good idea to draw a line under it now.
CC kindly gave her opinion on the situation there and all seems to be fine there now.
Just a thought!
Dec 10th, 2012, 08:26 PM
#75
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Hello. Just wanted to add my 2 cents on this topic. My mother and I ttraveled to Egypt in 2010. As Americans we were treated extremly well and saw a land and people who were in need of social and political change. Both my mother and I plan to travel back to this wonderful country without fear. Egypt and its people have a culture and inner peace that is unlike no other. I encourage eveyone not judge a country by some of its people who display violence. All countries have problems and a certain segment of people who cause those problems including America. Egypt is in a time of re-birth and the process will take time and patience. I am loking ofrward to a return trip and feel the very essence of the Egyptian people and the land that has given humankind so much history!
Dec 14th, 2012, 03:55 AM
#76
Wow Guys, good debate. I guess "travel broadens the mind" is true.
I'm reasonably comfortable in Islamic countries/North African coast and I'm in Egypt (for the first time) (Luxor so pretty quiet I guess) from 19th Dec for a week. With the 15th vote coming up tomorrow, can Casual_Cairo and others with their feet-on-the-ground advise what the latest status is for tourists.
I'm reasonably comfortable in Islamic countries/North African coast and I'm in Egypt (for the first time) (Luxor so pretty quiet I guess) from 19th Dec for a week. With the 15th vote coming up tomorrow, can Casual_Cairo and others with their feet-on-the-ground advise what the latest status is for tourists.
Dec 25th, 2012, 02:08 AM
#78
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Hello Everyone! As a solo female traveler, I had absolutely no problems whatsoever while in Cairo in August and September of 2012. My apartment that I rented was three blocks from Tahrir Square. One just need use your common sense and avoid protests and demonstrations as you would anywhere in the world. Egyptian people are warm, friendly, kind, helpful and sweet...and their country is beautiful!
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:13 AM
#79
Just to say I got back this morning after 7 days in glorious Luxor. The place is relatively empty of tourists so prices are very low, the quality of food was excellent (particularly as a Vegi) and while the wine is not up to snuff the people were friendly and the hassle was at a pretty low level.
