Honey the cheetah dies in the Mara
Mar 6th, 2007, 04:02 PM
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To the two Bills...
Couldn't agree more. The cheetahs are very unlikely to have been fed by people. It is instinctive behaviour to use high vantage points. You may disagree, but I think it's unfortunate that wild animals aren't constantly discouraged from jumping on to vehicles. People should not need that kind of 'circus entertainment' to enjoy seeing animals in the wild.
John
Couldn't agree more. The cheetahs are very unlikely to have been fed by people. It is instinctive behaviour to use high vantage points. You may disagree, but I think it's unfortunate that wild animals aren't constantly discouraged from jumping on to vehicles. People should not need that kind of 'circus entertainment' to enjoy seeing animals in the wild.
John
Mar 6th, 2007, 05:29 PM
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Bill,
It's unfortunate but also typical that people tend to discourage only in those instances where the animal is a bigger danger to humans. In other words, the potential risk to the animal is not even considered. The cheetah is much less dangerous than the lion, so it is not discouraged. There was an incident at Selinda a couple of years ago when a subadult lion, in the company of mature lions, stuck his head into the open doorway of a vehicle and licked the boot of a friend of mine. I don't know, but I imagine the guide would have been reprimanded for allowing that to happen. In some safari operations, as we know, a cheetah doing a similar thing doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
John
It's unfortunate but also typical that people tend to discourage only in those instances where the animal is a bigger danger to humans. In other words, the potential risk to the animal is not even considered. The cheetah is much less dangerous than the lion, so it is not discouraged. There was an incident at Selinda a couple of years ago when a subadult lion, in the company of mature lions, stuck his head into the open doorway of a vehicle and licked the boot of a friend of mine. I don't know, but I imagine the guide would have been reprimanded for allowing that to happen. In some safari operations, as we know, a cheetah doing a similar thing doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
John
Mar 6th, 2007, 06:03 PM
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So Jonathon Scott wasn't "keeping his options open"... both of his comments were correct... the one general and the other specifically about Amber's mother and descendants - although her getting fed was probably less of a factor than having the "relationship" with humans??
Guys... I agree with the points being made - I don't see how I couldn't, to be honest... but with so many people around permanently in the Mara and everything being so observed in the north of the reserve(and out) I am sure many of us know or suspect the Mara does get a little bit managed, especially "around the edges". I am certainly on the ignorant side here (so please shoot me down if necessary - I sincerely do not mind) but perhaps it is just not practical in the circumstances to expect that people are going to leave cubs which they see often and to which they are emotionally attached to starve to death.... even though it is probably the right thing to do. With the cheetahs being so disturbed by Masaai herders and visitors in certain areas that they have adapted their behaviour, this is not the place to try to argue a harder line. (I mean the Big Cat Diary area, not the Forum!!). Although it can be seen as a sad reflection on what people have allowed to happen in parts of the Mara, well worth a thread of its own one day (title: Pandora's Box). Isn't intervention just inevitable as things stand?
I guess my point is "save your ammo". ;-)
Guys... I agree with the points being made - I don't see how I couldn't, to be honest... but with so many people around permanently in the Mara and everything being so observed in the north of the reserve(and out) I am sure many of us know or suspect the Mara does get a little bit managed, especially "around the edges". I am certainly on the ignorant side here (so please shoot me down if necessary - I sincerely do not mind) but perhaps it is just not practical in the circumstances to expect that people are going to leave cubs which they see often and to which they are emotionally attached to starve to death.... even though it is probably the right thing to do. With the cheetahs being so disturbed by Masaai herders and visitors in certain areas that they have adapted their behaviour, this is not the place to try to argue a harder line. (I mean the Big Cat Diary area, not the Forum!!). Although it can be seen as a sad reflection on what people have allowed to happen in parts of the Mara, well worth a thread of its own one day (title: Pandora's Box). Isn't intervention just inevitable as things stand?
I guess my point is "save your ammo". ;-)
Mar 6th, 2007, 06:56 PM
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I find it interesting that the circumstances of her death have not been released. Certainly, if it were "natural" a report detailing her being mauled by a lion, leopard or hyena would be forthcoming. Either there was something "unnatural" ie: human related or an attempt to treat her went awry. I too had a close encounter with a female cheetah who was a Kike relation right at the beginning of Aug. '06. It was thrilling and while I recognize that it in some way it may be a problem I thoroughly enjoyed the 5 min. she sat on the hood (bonnet for those of you across the pond 
)of our land rover. However this behavior is in some way evolutionary past the high ground theory. On my honeymoon in 1980 in Kenya we spotted a female cheetah that proceeded to follow on the side of our vehicle in order to get closer to an unsuspecting tommie and once close enough took off for the eventual kill. She had already learned that vehicles make for good cover and the natural progression would be to use the vehicles for any advantage it could. I agree that the size and perceived lack of aggression of cheetahs makes this a tolerated act which I guarantee would not be the case if leopards or lions attempted to climb onto a vehicle. I think it is nice to have a sentimental attachment to certain "star animals", Honey, Kike, the Duba Boys, the Steroid Boys (Mombo cheetah due who sadly were killed over the past year) but it is inevitable. As someone posted earlier all the animals, save the eles and crocs and a few others, from safaris of many years gone by are no longer with us but it is those close encounters that make it feel we "knew" them and feel their loss.
Regards,
Eric
)of our land rover. However this behavior is in some way evolutionary past the high ground theory. On my honeymoon in 1980 in Kenya we spotted a female cheetah that proceeded to follow on the side of our vehicle in order to get closer to an unsuspecting tommie and once close enough took off for the eventual kill. She had already learned that vehicles make for good cover and the natural progression would be to use the vehicles for any advantage it could. I agree that the size and perceived lack of aggression of cheetahs makes this a tolerated act which I guarantee would not be the case if leopards or lions attempted to climb onto a vehicle. I think it is nice to have a sentimental attachment to certain "star animals", Honey, Kike, the Duba Boys, the Steroid Boys (Mombo cheetah due who sadly were killed over the past year) but it is inevitable. As someone posted earlier all the animals, save the eles and crocs and a few others, from safaris of many years gone by are no longer with us but it is those close encounters that make it feel we "knew" them and feel their loss. Regards,
Eric
Mar 6th, 2007, 07:00 PM
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Hi Eric,
Your post did stir up my thought process too....yes, if she was killed by lions that would have come out along with the news (like it happened to the seroid boys) or a snake bite (as in the case of the 3rd savuti boy). I hope humans had nothing to do with it.....
Hari
Your post did stir up my thought process too....yes, if she was killed by lions that would have come out along with the news (like it happened to the seroid boys) or a snake bite (as in the case of the 3rd savuti boy). I hope humans had nothing to do with it.....
Hari
Mar 6th, 2007, 09:26 PM
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I hate to be a cynic but why in the world do they have to delay announcing the details until they are ready for some special press release. I can feel it coming, they have to get some footage of feeding and saving the cubs and make the announcement as they air the Honey's greatest moments show ending with the special cub footage. I certainly hope this is not about promotion. They are not doing any honor to this 'star' cat by holding back details from those who care and are trying to discuss it.
I have to say I can barely watch wildlife shows any more as 75% of them are now about the human personalities and sensationalism and the real education process that use to come with the filming is almost dead. I miss the days of a good narrator with facts and details and no people in the film, now its all about the interaction and supposed danger of the human and the animal.
I have to say I can barely watch wildlife shows any more as 75% of them are now about the human personalities and sensationalism and the real education process that use to come with the filming is almost dead. I miss the days of a good narrator with facts and details and no people in the film, now its all about the interaction and supposed danger of the human and the animal.
Mar 7th, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Bill & matt,
Whatever <i>has</i> happened to wild life docos in the past several years? The presenters just seem to want to put their faces on camera. I gave up Big Cat Diary for that reason ages ago...so, no, I know nothing about Saba's feet
John
Whatever <i>has</i> happened to wild life docos in the past several years? The presenters just seem to want to put their faces on camera. I gave up Big Cat Diary for that reason ages ago...so, no, I know nothing about Saba's feet
John
Mar 7th, 2007, 01:49 PM
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Matt & John: I also have not been a real follower of Big Cat Diary so I'm also clueless on Saba's feet.
The amazing BBC documentary series Planet Earth is premiering in the USA starting at the end of March so I'm hoping people will see what a real film should be like and perhaps bring that style back to life.
The amazing BBC documentary series Planet Earth is premiering in the USA starting at the end of March so I'm hoping people will see what a real film should be like and perhaps bring that style back to life.
Mar 7th, 2007, 02:10 PM
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A few years ago, there was a travel reporter on Australian commercial television who seemed to love nothing more than to display her...er...ahem!..on camera. They made for interesting viewing at times, but I never learned a thing about travel destinations from her 
John
John
Mar 7th, 2007, 04:20 PM
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Okay, I will elaborate. Saba Douglas-Hamilton appears to have much in common with J.R.R.Tolkein's imaginary people the Hobbits. Though her feet are not as large and not covered with hair, she apparently never wears shoes. That in itself is not that newsworthy to me, but apparently to the producers of the program it is, every segment featuring her shows at least one close up of said bare feet operating pedals of vehicle.
Mar 7th, 2007, 07:20 PM
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"Good old days" folk should not forget that David Attenborough started all this. ;-)
Yes indeed, keep in mind that Big Cat Diary is very educational ENTERTAINMENT and is intended as such. Jonathon Scott refers to the current format (since the second series) as "reality TV" and if it hadn't gone the "camera-in-car" route it may never have attracted the viewers that it does. The shots of Saba's feet should be seen in this context. As far as quality goes it has it's place alongside the BBC's "serious" documentaries, but in a completely different category. Comparing them is pointless and one does not exclude the other.
Yes indeed, keep in mind that Big Cat Diary is very educational ENTERTAINMENT and is intended as such. Jonathon Scott refers to the current format (since the second series) as "reality TV" and if it hadn't gone the "camera-in-car" route it may never have attracted the viewers that it does. The shots of Saba's feet should be seen in this context. As far as quality goes it has it's place alongside the BBC's "serious" documentaries, but in a completely different category. Comparing them is pointless and one does not exclude the other.
Mar 7th, 2007, 07:26 PM
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On another note, here is a past quote from Jonathon Scott on the death of Toto the cheetah cub who was a "star" of one of the Big Cat Diary series but disappeared just after shooting finished.
"It was really interesting with Toto. I get emails from people who refuse to believe he died, and asking if they can come and help us find him. I understand and totally agree that we mustn’t interfere. I told my cameraman at the beginning that I thought it would be a miracle if this little guy survived. He couldn’t believe we were going to sit in the car and let something happen. But you have to – they’re the rules. If you start breaking them, it’s a slippery slope. He was really distressed by that.
That evening, though, I thought: do I have to not do anything? Legally I shouldn’t. But I did pose the question: I’m a human – should I just respond to my emotions?
I’ll tell you one thing: if the little cub was killed, we’d probably film it but we’d never be able to show it. Because firstly people would think we should have done something about it; and secondly, nobody wants to see that reality. I somehow see death as a much more natural part of life; because of what I do and what I see, it’s easier for me to accept that. But that little sick cheetah cub… it was like going out with a pet cat and then saying, “God, I can’t pick it up and put it back in the car”. It was pretty horrible."
Easy to express opinions from a distance, right?
"It was really interesting with Toto. I get emails from people who refuse to believe he died, and asking if they can come and help us find him. I understand and totally agree that we mustn’t interfere. I told my cameraman at the beginning that I thought it would be a miracle if this little guy survived. He couldn’t believe we were going to sit in the car and let something happen. But you have to – they’re the rules. If you start breaking them, it’s a slippery slope. He was really distressed by that.
That evening, though, I thought: do I have to not do anything? Legally I shouldn’t. But I did pose the question: I’m a human – should I just respond to my emotions?
I’ll tell you one thing: if the little cub was killed, we’d probably film it but we’d never be able to show it. Because firstly people would think we should have done something about it; and secondly, nobody wants to see that reality. I somehow see death as a much more natural part of life; because of what I do and what I see, it’s easier for me to accept that. But that little sick cheetah cub… it was like going out with a pet cat and then saying, “God, I can’t pick it up and put it back in the car”. It was pretty horrible."
Easy to express opinions from a distance, right?
Mar 8th, 2007, 04:35 AM
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Oh, I think I get it now.
Let's see, we habituate these animals, follow them around endlessly to watch their every move, get them so used to vehicles to the point they're jumping on top of them, licking hands or feet or sniffing around, peeing through the roofs, etc.
Then when one of them is in a dire situation, facing death, or fatally wounded, we take the 'higher road' and just sit back and watch them die like they were completely "wild"?
We claim we can't help them because that would be intefering with the "natural order of things" or human intervention?
Am I missing something, or haven't we already done that?
I guess I'm confused as to who makes the rules about what is deemed as human intervention, and when it's appropriate to intervene. Why are we allowed to habituate these animals, get them so used to people, make them "stars" and then stand by, watch them die and claim we can't interfere? A bit ironic to me.
Humans have been interfering for hundreds/thousands of years, whether it's in the form of habitat destruction, hunting, culling, and pushing species to the point of threatened or endangered status, to name a few.
Lots of gray areas in this folks but to me, humans have already interfered with wildlife and the natural order of things long ago.
I would hate to see the handful of remaining tigers, cheetahs, lions, mountain gorillas (the list goes on and on) become extinct because we have all of a sudden become self-righteous for problems which we have created in the first place.
FYI, I've got lots of 'ammo' so fire away. ;-)
Let's see, we habituate these animals, follow them around endlessly to watch their every move, get them so used to vehicles to the point they're jumping on top of them, licking hands or feet or sniffing around, peeing through the roofs, etc.
Then when one of them is in a dire situation, facing death, or fatally wounded, we take the 'higher road' and just sit back and watch them die like they were completely "wild"?
We claim we can't help them because that would be intefering with the "natural order of things" or human intervention?
Am I missing something, or haven't we already done that?
I guess I'm confused as to who makes the rules about what is deemed as human intervention, and when it's appropriate to intervene. Why are we allowed to habituate these animals, get them so used to people, make them "stars" and then stand by, watch them die and claim we can't interfere? A bit ironic to me.
Humans have been interfering for hundreds/thousands of years, whether it's in the form of habitat destruction, hunting, culling, and pushing species to the point of threatened or endangered status, to name a few.
Lots of gray areas in this folks but to me, humans have already interfered with wildlife and the natural order of things long ago.
I would hate to see the handful of remaining tigers, cheetahs, lions, mountain gorillas (the list goes on and on) become extinct because we have all of a sudden become self-righteous for problems which we have created in the first place.
FYI, I've got lots of 'ammo' so fire away. ;-)
Mar 8th, 2007, 10:02 AM
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divewop, you don't need that ammo.. at least not for me - I agree with you completely. We habituate them so we are already interfering (sp?) so why not help them when you can. I'm a big softie when it comes to animals and even the thought of just leaving those cubs to die (or any cubs for that matter) is horrific. And It wasn't through BCD that I became so attached to Honey and her cubs, it was by visiting with her and them. I would have been as upset if Honey had been an 'unknown' cheetah and had died. I really hope that those cubs can survive.
I visited the David Sheldrick Elephant Orphanage last year and without human intervention, all the babies I saw would have certainly died. The orphanage is an amazing place where these animals are reintroduced to the wild and also educate the people of Africa. In many cases the cause of the ellies being orphaned were man made so I feel it is only right that humans try to 'put the wrong right' .. just my thoughts, and I don't have much ammo so please be gentle
Imelda
I visited the David Sheldrick Elephant Orphanage last year and without human intervention, all the babies I saw would have certainly died. The orphanage is an amazing place where these animals are reintroduced to the wild and also educate the people of Africa. In many cases the cause of the ellies being orphaned were man made so I feel it is only right that humans try to 'put the wrong right' .. just my thoughts, and I don't have much ammo so please be gentle
Imelda
Mar 8th, 2007, 11:21 AM
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Oh bejesus, the more I see of Mother Nature, the more of a mess she seems to make of things! and in a country where the hungry are often expected to feed the starving, I havn't seen much help from any other higher entity either.
In the so called 'civilised' Western world, it may seem hard to imagine what it is like to exist in a place where a metal is precious and life is cheap - where callousness is rewarded and compassion is ignored or condemmed as a weakness.
Maybe it is a virtue to mind your own business and nobody elses' - but who are we to make that decision on behalf of any other being?
If Honey was helped, as reported, I know she waasn't the first Cheetah to be treated,(and others havn't been 'film stars' either), I pray she won't be the last - and the same for lions, elephants, giraffe, and even zebra that I have known of; then full marks for those who have the ability and are in a position to show a little compassion and ease a little suffering.
I suppose those who disagree don't lament the passing of the Dodo either. I wouldn't dare to presume to say who is right or wrong - I can only say that I would personally care enough to try to make things better if I found myself in that position.Good judgement comes with experience.Unfortunately, experience usually comes from bad judgement and I still have much to learn
OK, you can shoot me down in flames now.......R.I.P. Honey x
In the so called 'civilised' Western world, it may seem hard to imagine what it is like to exist in a place where a metal is precious and life is cheap - where callousness is rewarded and compassion is ignored or condemmed as a weakness.
Maybe it is a virtue to mind your own business and nobody elses' - but who are we to make that decision on behalf of any other being?
If Honey was helped, as reported, I know she waasn't the first Cheetah to be treated,(and others havn't been 'film stars' either), I pray she won't be the last - and the same for lions, elephants, giraffe, and even zebra that I have known of; then full marks for those who have the ability and are in a position to show a little compassion and ease a little suffering.
I suppose those who disagree don't lament the passing of the Dodo either. I wouldn't dare to presume to say who is right or wrong - I can only say that I would personally care enough to try to make things better if I found myself in that position.Good judgement comes with experience.Unfortunately, experience usually comes from bad judgement and I still have much to learn
OK, you can shoot me down in flames now.......R.I.P. Honey x
