Roccco

Disclaimer: I have no idea when I will be going on safari next. While I would like to go to South Africa in late March/early April, chances are that I will not be ($$$) ready to travel by then. Plus, I am having a hard time with the dual pricing policy since it really only helps the wealthiest South Africans, anyway.

I really do want to visit Tanzania, as it offers a great opportunity for traveling with very few flights within the itinerary, as flights have been a major challenge for my wife, although she was a pro on our recently completed Zambian trip aboard a couple 5 seat aircrafts, thanks largely in part to the excellent pilots at Airwaves,as well as the fact that it was a brand new place with only about 100 hours.

In any event, if I do wait until late August/early September, I would like to be witness to the Wildebeest Migration as it travels through the Serengeti and over the river. While I am aware that the best place for the migration in late June would be at Kirawira, I have no idea which camp would be the best located for late August.

I would be willing to spend a maximum of five nights in the Serengeti and would like to spend three nights at the most preferred camp, and two nights at the next most preferred camp.

I am also thinking of including the following destinations:

Serengeti (5 nights between a couple camps, need recommendations for migration/river crossing viewing)
Selous (4 nights at Sand Rivers)
Tarangire (3 nights at Kikoti)
Ngorongoro Crater (2 nights at Ngorongoro Crater Lodge or Ngorongoro Serena)
Zanzibar, (4 nights---2 nights at Zanzibar Serena and 2 nights at Emerson & Green in Stone Town)
Amsterdam, 2 nights at 5* Hotel to be determined to make journey home a little easier.

I may need one night in either Dar Es Salaam or Arusha after Selous, although I am hopeful that can go right onto Zanzibar or arrive in Arusha early enough to continue right on into Tarangire, even if a late afternoon arrival.

So, in which would this trip best be arranged for the easiest flowing itinerary? I do think that I would like to save Zanzibar for second last, and Selous for the grand finale, if possible, but again, if there is anything I can do to avoid a night in Dar Es Salaam or Arusha, I would prefer that option if it has to be an either/or type of decision.

Thanks.

SusanLynne

Rocco, you might want to look at Grumeti River Camp (a CC Africa property)for your stay in the western Serengeti. More expensive than Kirawira Camp, which is a Serena property. Having said that, I would suggest the following:
1) Fly into JRO airport, overnight Mt. Village Lodge.
2) Drive to Tarangire, overnight 3 Kikoti - night game drives a must!
3) Drive to Crater - Crater Lodge or Serena (if you can swing one night at the Crater Lodge, do it for the fun of it.)
4) Drive from Crater to Serengeti.
5) Fly Serengeti to Arusha to Dar - one day. Would require an overnight in Dar (which is really quite a cosmopolitan place!). Overnight - the Holiday Inn in Dar is very nice, not the usual Holiday Inn. Marble floors, etc. and is in a great area to do some walking around.
6) Fly Dar to ZNZ
7) Fly ZNZ to Dar, the fly Dar to Selous. (I do not think there are daily flights so you will need to maybe plan around which days there are flights. But your operator will help you with this.)
8) Fly Selous to Dar, fly out of Dar airport. Get a dayroom.
I don't think I told you anything you don't already know or have heard, but I think it is a lovely itinerary and if STD doesn't want to go, I'll join you! I think Sandi would probably come too, as well as Kavey, maybe Liz ... shoot, the whole gang will come!

SusanLynne

But you may not have to spend the night in Dar. I think there are flights from Arusha to ZNZ daily. So depending on what time you fly out of the Serengeti, you might be able to get to ZNZ without the night in Dar! Duh ... that will teach me to open my big mouth before letting the caffeine kick in!

sandi

Roccco - ideally you should be in the Mara in Kenya for the Migration (late-July thru end-Sept/early-Oct). That's not to say part of the herds won't be overflowing into the very northern Serengeti. But the Migration actually takes place in Kenya's Masai Mara.

So I would try to spend minimum 3-nts. at the Mara, then moving onto Tanzania. But with the roads into/out of the Mara these days being in poor condition, it's recommended to fly in/out.

Then you can take a flight from Kenya to Tanzania (Arusha/Kili) and head straight out to the northern top of the Serengeti (Kleins Camp or Migration Camp) for 3-days.

From there finding your way back towards Arusha by flying from the northern Serengeti to Ngorongoro Crater for 2-nts, then road to Tarangire 2-nts. returning to Arusha for flight to Dar to connect to flight to the Selous for 4-nts, then back to Dar for ferry or air to Zanzibar.

The Zanzibar Serena is on the outskirts of Stone Town, so I can't see you also staying at Emerson & Green which is in the midst of Stone Town. Besides, Stone Town is a busy and noisy community with life and business going on all day. You might want to splurge and spend a few nights on Mnemba Island, private and espensive but all inclusive, even your scuba tanks and dives (if certified or you have to pay for a brief course).

An alternative might be when you return to Dar from the Selous, you fly over to Mafia Island which has some of the best diving in the world and where you can also go deep-sea fishing. Two places here are Kinasi or PolePole - for 2-days or 3-days, then finish up in Zanzibar at the Serena for 2-days, then home from Dar.

Most of the air equipment are 19 or 45 seaters, but some going to N.Serengeti might be smaller.

Day 1 - Fly to Mara - Mara Explorer (which Kave's dad said was right at the place where the herds crossed the river)
Day 2 - Mara
Day 3 - Mara
Day 4 - Fly to NBO, private road transfer to Arusha (this is at least a 4hr drive and might miss flight to NSerengeti - so an overnight required) OR you can choose to fly to Arusha/Kili and since flights to NSerengeti are on an "as needed basis" fly to the N.Serengeti) - Kleins Camp or Migration Camp
Day 5 - Fly to Ngorongoro - Crater Lodge or Serena
Day 6 - Ngorongoro
Day 7 - Drive to Tarangire - Kikoti
Day 8 - Tarangire
Day 9 - Drive to Arusha/Kili - fly to Dar - possible overnight
Day 10 - Fly to The Selous - Sand Rivers
Day 11 - Selous
Day 12 - Selous
Day 13 - Selous
Day 14 -17 - Fly to Dar, then onto Zanzibar for 4-days, OR consider
Day 14 - Fly to Dar, fly to Mafia
Day 15 - Mafia
Day 16 - Mafia
Day 17 - Fly to Dar, to Zanzibar
Day 18 - Zanzibar
Day 19 - return home

Of course, above has to be considered as regards flight times.

BA flies NBO/DAR
KLM flies NBO/JRO

And I know the itinerary has more flights then STD might like, but few are really tiny planes.

See if the above works for you.

sandi

Well, well - SusanLynne I howled when I saw your itinerary posted before mine - busy busy aren't we both this morning. Rocco, I guess we both really want you to get to this part of Africa. Thankfully, both itineraries are different - so you have choices.

thit_cho

One quick comment. In August/September, the migration usually is in or just south of the Masai Mara, so you may want to consider spending a few days at beginning of trip in Mara. Just thought I would toss in a wrinkle.

Roccco

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

I will need a little more help with my options for the Masai Mara and how to best cross over. I spent my lunch hour at Barnes & Noble yesterday seeing if there were any other destinations in Kenya worth my time, but at least Lonely Planet's guidebood didn't seem to think so, saying that the gameviewing at Tsavo wasn't very good and that there were way too many tourists at Amboseli.

I would imagine that one night in Nairobi may be mandatory for the Masai Mara and this wouldn't be so bad if I stayed at the Norfolk? Hotel, but I am hoping to avoid two nights in Nairobi (one on the way in and one on the way out).

Next challenge...does Roy Safaris, for example, take care of me on both sides of the border (Tanzania and Kenya), or do I need to find a separate tour operator for my Kenyan portion while visiting the Mara?

Including the following destinations, please help me design the best itinerary, sticking to the following destinations and budget, keeping in mind that I am able to make my dollar stretch with the tour operators and will likely be able to stay at the very best places with my budget, even if it doesn't appear so:

Masai Mara (4 nights) $2,500 USD
Serengeti (4 nights) $2,500 USD
Ngorongoro Crater (2 nights) $1,500 USD
Tarangire (3 nights) $2,000 USD
Zanzibar (3 nights...I am open to Mnemba and/or Mafia Island. Although these places are expensive, at least I won't be paying over $1,000 USD per night while on safari, as I would be in South Africa and Botswana) $1,500 USD
Selous (4 nights) $3,000 USD
*Please also list transit cities such as Dar Es Salaam, Nairobi and Arusha, and very best places to stay in these cities. Dar Es Salaam has a couple very nice options I am aware of in the Holiday Inn and Royal Palm?, while Nairobi features the Norfolk Hotel. However, Arusha doesn't really seem to have a top-notch hotel. I do prefer the conveniences of a top notch hotel over the quirkiness of a Mountain Village or similar type accomodation.

Also, please put the dates of the dream itinerary, if possible. I am trying to wrap this all up by September 30, 2005, as I will be assuming complete control of a new business venture after that date and want to arrive home well rested and ready to start planning my next African adventure!

Thanks a million for the excellent feedback so far.

thit_cho

Nairobi -- I stayed at the Norfolk on my first trip and its a great place to kick off a safari. If you were forced to spend a second night, you may want to look at Giraffe Manor (I only visited during the day and unfortunately didn's spend the night).

In Masai Mara, I think the Serena has the best location, but I know you don't like large lodges, so you may want to check out either Little Governors or Il Moran. Three nights may be better in the Mara since the game viewing in the Mara and Serengeti are likely to be similar.

I don't think Roy's handles Kenya but I'm sure they have a recommended counterpart in Kenya (again, I could be mistaken).

sandi

Roys does have a partner in Kenya and between the two will coordinate a flawless itinerary.

Since you'll only be in NBO late (at hotel by 10pm) on night of arrival, best you stay in NBO proper and not go out to Karen for the giraffe Manor or a number of others that will only require more time to get to the airport next morning. You're only going to want to go to sleep.

Some people claim the Serena has best positioning in the Mara, but others don't think so. And I think you'd prefer a tented camp, the reason I mentioned Mara Explorer whick is 5* and small, only 10-tents. Of course, there is always CCAfrica's Kichwo Tembo Batelaur Camp.

If you require a night in Arusha, you're not likely to find luxury here, so you take the best available. Likewise, if schedules do not coordinate you'll only need an overnight in Dar upon return from The Selous.

As to Mnemba, yes this is expensive, but a nice expensive and perfect for relaxing. Mafia on the otherhand is not, in fact, very reasonable. There are only two decent choices here and I listed both - Kinasi and PolePole. It depends on what you wish to do. Relax or dive/fish!

And as mentioned in my above post, you do not have to return to NBO to return home. You are already in/near Dar, so that's where you leave for home.

Using BA, you fly into NBO and out from DAR - you can get a split ticket. The BA flight from DAR flies Tu, F & Su departing 9:20am via LHR, which might necessitate an overnight back in DAR to make this early departure.

I don't believe anyone can schedule your trip day-by-day as flight schedules are in the hands of the outfitters in-country. So I would suggest you email your information and have them work it out based on flight schedules.

Leely

Another wrinkle (maybe). If I remember correctly--and I'm trying to visualize the map at the entrance to the Serengeti--I think the designated off-road areas are to the southwest of Seronera. You might be interested in something in the center of the park for a couple of days for this reason, as well as the number of cats in that general area. It's where a cheetah jumped on the hood of our car.

I also think you and your wife might prefer to relax somewhere other than Stone Town. I really, really liked it. But, that said, the friend I was travelling with was a little freaked out by the intensity of the city.

Good luck. I'm sooo envious.

aag2000

Roccco,

I am going to Tanzania for my honeymoon at the end of September. Our itinerary is as follows: 1 night Arusha, 3 nights Klein's Camp, 2 nights Ngorongoro Crater Lodge, 4 nights Mnemba, 1 night Serena Inn (Stone Town), and 1 night at Blakes in Amsterdam. We are flying KLM into Kilimanjaro (JRO) and out of Dar es Salaam (DAR).

Of course I will be able to share a lot more concrete info when I get home in 6 weeks, but I can tell you a bit about our planning process and why we decided on this itinerary.

Klein's Camp is a CC Africa lodge located in the northern Serengeti, just outside the park (allowing for night drives). It's true that the Migration is generally in the Mara at that time. However, it is extremely hard to predict with any certainty--last year, in fact, it was near Klein's Camp in late September. Furthermore, despite the proximity "as the crow flies," the lack of international airports makes it hard to travel between the Mara and the Serengeti or Ngorongoro: you have to fly back to Nairobi, then to Kilimanjaro Int'l, drive to Arusha (and possibly spend the night), and then hop another flight.

After much research and consultation with the CC Africa people (who also run Kichwa Tembo in the Masai Mara and had no real incentive for us to visit one place or the other), we came to the conclusion that that even if our odds of catching the Migration are slightly lower at Klein's, the wildlife viewing should still be quite good.

So, because our trip was limited to two weeks, and everywhere else we wanted to visit was in Tanzania, and most of all because the exact timing of the Migration is simply too hard to predict, we decided to stay in the Serengeti and avoid the additional flights.

Of course, we will be kicking ourselves a bit if the Migration is at, say, Kichwa Tembo exactly the days we are at Klein's Camp, but we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed...

As for your concerns about spending the night in Dar, you very likely won't even need a dayroom, let alone an overnight stay (assuming you are flying KLM, based on your mention of Amsterdam at the end). Coastal Aviation (schedules available online at www.coastal.cc) flies nonstop from Arusha to Zanzibar, and that flight is timed to connect with flights arriving from the various Serengeti airstrips. Similarly, their flights from the Selous are timed to connect via Dar to Zanzibar. At the end of our trip, we are taking an early evening flight from Zanzibar to Dar, where we will be met by a driver to take us to dinner at the Slipway (anyone have recommendations for that area?), and then back to the airport in time for our KLM flight to Amsterdam.

There are lots of other excellent suggestions from the "regulars" here too (I don't post much, but I read frequently--this is a great resource!). I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

Roccco

Thanks for the additional feedback. I do have my concerns whether or not I will be able to fit Selous into the itinerary if I am to include both the Masai Mara and the Serengeti. Although this itinerary may be too long and not possible for me, how does the following itinerary look?

LAX - London - Dar Es Salaam, arriving at 6:55AM...plenty of time for a transfer to Sand Rivers Lodge, arriving possibly by noon.

Sand Rivers Lodge, Selous (4) After thinking about it more, the last thing that my wife will want to do, if I can even get her to agree to all this, will be to hop in a small plane after two full weeks of safari to fly to Southern Tanzania. So, I better get to Selous first.

Dar Es Salaam, Holiday Inn (1)

6:50AM flight on Precision Air from Dar Es Salaam to Nairobi, arriving in Nairobi at 9:05AM, transfering to Masai Mara.

Masai Mara, Little Governors Camp or Mara Explorer (4)

Transfer from Masai Mara to Nairobi to Arusha.

Arusha, best available modern hotel (1)

Tarangire, Kikoti Lodge (3)

Ngorongoro Crater, NC Lodge (2)

Serengeti, Grumeti River Lodge (3)

Unfortunately, I do not believe I will have either the time or budget to enjoy Zanzibar. If I do go, after seeing Mnemba Island Lodge, I would choose it, but at about $1,100 USD per night, I think I will just be content with 16 nights of safari, and leaving a couple nights in London at the end.

As it is, with a couple nights in Amsterdam, I think I am looking at close to $14,000 USD, but with 16 nights being a safari and 2 nights being a 5* hotel in London, I think that is a great value.

I do think that the Selous, from pictures I have seen will be very similar to South Luangwa National Park, but that is a good thing!

Ultimately it is a choice between Zanzibar and Selous, and for me, that is an easy choice. Trust me, my wife is not a big fan of surf, sand and especially sun. I do think that she will be a lot more comfortable in the pop top vehicles than she is in open air vehicles (although Sand Rivers is the one lodge with open air vehicles).

This does look like the way to go for next year. Although the USD is starting to gain against the Rand, about 10% in the last month, South Africa is still overpriced in my opinion. Unless a 4 night package for the Royal Malewand popped up, there is little chance that I will be going to South Africa next year. A 4 night Royal Malewane package appeared about 6 months ago and it was for the amazing price of under $2,000 USD. That is 1/3 the normal price.

Anyway, Tanzania and the Masai Mara look like fascinating places, and it is nice to see ONLY an 8.5 hour flight from London to Dar Es Salaam. I can be to Dar Es Salaam from Los Angeles in under 24 hours, and back in the USA from Dar Es Salaam in under 28 hours, a treacherously long time, but not nearly as bad as South Africa. It's those last few hours that just kill.

I'd like a little more feedback on the Mara lodges from those that have visited. Thanks.

SusanLynne

Rocco: You may not want to hear this, but I would not skip Amboseli. Yes, it is a very popular park, but it certainly deserves a visit. The views of Mt. Kili are better in Amboseli than they are from Tanzania (where Kili is located), the elephant population is phenomenal (to say nothing of the rest of the wildlife) and it is truly a fascinating part of Kenya. Having been, I can understand why Jan goes back year after year.

divewop

Rocco-
As far as camps in the Mara go, please don't forget to consider Governor's Il Moran camp.

It is by far much nicer than Little Governor's and much smaller w/ much more personalized service. I've visited both but stayed at Il Moran.
I'd go back there in a heartbeat. I know STD would love it.

Great location right on the river w/ hippos down below you. Many other critters wander through the camp as well.

Ask for Samuel as your guide. He was on the anti-poaching unit in Tsavo for 20 years prior to his guiding experience and can spot a critter probably 1/2 mile away (even a wart hog!) Incredible eyesight. Lots of good stories.

thit_cho

That sounds like a great itinarary, and I agree you should look into Il Moran as well as Little Governors.

I'd leave Amboseli for another trip. I was there on my first safari and its a small park, with many visitors. Yes, the views of Kili are great, but clear days are rare and in our 2 days we didn't get any clear photos of the mountain. As between more time in the Mara and a stop in Amboseli, I'd opt for more time in the Mara.

SusanLynne

That is what we were told. So imagine how pleasantly surprised we were that Kili was as clear as a bell the three days were at Ambosel!

Roccco

Thanks for the continued feedback. In short, if it were possible to do a "southern circuit" of Kenya, somehow connecting to the "northern circuit" of Tanzania, that would be my first choice. While Selous looks like a great place, it looks like a familiar place, as well (South Luangwa National Park, but I fear that the animals will not be as approachable at Selous).

Please advise me if it is possible to start out in the Masai Mara, with a couple nights in between, going onto Amboseli, making like Superman and leaping Kiliminjaro in a single bound, and continue on with the Northern circuit.

Thanks for the continued feedback.

thit_cho

Rocco, on my first safari, we combined Kenya and Tanzania as follows:

Nairobi -- Norfolk Hotel
Masai Mara -- flew to Masai Mara for three nights
Amboseli -- flew back to Nairobi and drove to Amboseli
Ngogongoro Crater -- drove from Amboseli via Arusha (long day but we saw a lot of Tanzania)
Serengeti -- drive from Crater to Serengeti
Then flew from Serengeti to Arusha (or whatever the airport is in that area) and then to Nairobi

It would have been very easy for us to add in Tarangire or Lake Manyara.

So its possible to visit Mara and Serengeti but you'll need to backtrack a little. If you skip Amboseli, you could probably fly from Mara to Nairobi to Arusha and drive to Crater in same day, and be there for last game drive.

sandi

Roccco -

You can do the Mara upon arrival for a few days, but to get to Amboseli generally have to get back to Nairobi. And then after a few days at Amboseli would have to get back to Nairobi to fly to Arusha.

That said, there is another way to do this, but I do not know whether this would be accepted by a tour operator or whether you (Roccco & STD) would want to spend that much time on the famous Kenyan roads.

SusanLynne if you see this, read what I'm proposing:

From the Mara instead of flying (or driving to Nairobi) drive via a (southern Kenya/Northern Tanzania) border - past the Shompole area - which should bring you to the Amboseli road (at the Namanga border crossing) and once at Amboseli spend a few days. Then you could fly from Amboseli to NBO for the flight to Arusha. However, since from flight from Amboseli is an early one (about 8:30am - arriving 9:30am) Roccco would you'd to wait till 12N or 1pm for flight to Arusha. So if one doesn't mind driving - one can simply drive from Amboseli to the Namanga border crossing, change vehicles/driver and continue onto Arusha. With the new improved Amboseli road, you could probably make it to Arusha in 2-1/2 hrs. Have lunch and continue to your next itinerary stop.

What I do not know is the distance from exiting the Mara at the SE corner(if there is even a gate there) to Shompole? I do know that the estimated drive time from Shompole to NBO is 3-1/2 hrs. much less than for Mara to NBO.

SusanLynne - did you get the picture on that? Is it doable if Roccco doesn't mind the driving and it's acceptable with the tour operator? But do we want Roccco to even see Shompole? He might never want to go onto the Serengeti! LOL!

Just my creative mind working!

Roccco

sandi,

When you mentioned Shompole and that I would not want to go onto the Serengeti, I imagined Shompole being a scary little city and that I would want to turn back. In short, I imagined Shompole to be a Sh***ole!
(roll the e over, for a long e and full dramatic effect)

Instead, I see the most incredible looking lodge. WOW!

http://www.shompole.com/impressions/impressions2.htm

And the press on this place has been amazing:

http://www.shompole.com/press/index.html

I must say, however, that I do prefer this photofeature that appeared in Vogue!

http://www.shompole.com/press/Vogue3-.htm

Anyway, Shompole looks like a great place. How does this itinerary look:

Day 1 - Arrive Nairobi, early morning. Transfer to Masai Mara. 3 nights at Mara Explorer or Il Moran.

Day 4 - Transfer to Nairobi, transfer to Amboseli. 3 nights at Tortilis Camp.

Day 7 - Transfer to Shompole for 2 nights.

Day 9 - late arrival? to Ngorongoro area. 1 night at Gibbs Farm? I don't want to waste the money when I will likely have been on the road until early evening.

Day 10 - backtrack to Tarangire. 3 nights at Kikoti.

Day 13 - reverse course and spend 2 nights at Ngorongoro Crater Lodge.

Day 15 - Serengeti. Four nights at Grumeti River Lodge or two nights at a couple different lodges.

Day 18 - Fly back to Nairobi for connecting flight to Europe to spend a couple nights in London or Amsterdam.

Other than the expense(!), is this itinerary possible??? What are the weak parts of this itinerary in terms of making a road transfer possible? I would love to not have any flights other than the flight from the Mara to Nairobi and from Serengeti to Nairobi.

I am really delighted with the camps that I have seen, although the higher end ones certainly approach $1,000 USD per night. Still, in comparison to South Africa and Botswana, that is a bargain.

Now, what happens at the Kenya/Tanzania border? My Kenyan guide hands me over to my Tanzanian guide???

Thanks for all the help. This is really, really, really whetting my appetite for East Africa!