Rizutto and Tom -wait a second before you come to conclusions which are simply unjust!

When an individual approaches a TO and ask for the creation of a safari having no clue for what to go the TO starts summing up kind of status quo and then creates the safari around that particular human's interest and budget.

Then we come to the point when it becomes fun for the client and anger for the TO: the client mostly won't request the exact same itinerary from other TO but starts the whole process of creating an itinerary with a 2nd, 3rd.....TO. All itineraries are serving the client's interest but all are different.
So the client compares apples to peaches and finally gets down to the most "favourable" itinerary which by far is not comparable to the 1st quote - but somehow sufficient for that client.

Second - the TA/TO has got one instrument which is called "calculation". Any TO/TA has a different tool for that depending on margings/commission from hotels/lodges/carrier all depending on volume which again allows the TO/TA to "play" etc etc. all summing up to the final quote.

Why on Earth should any TO/TA disclose his/her calculation?

No business is obliged to do that. Why do clients request that from a TA/TO?

BTW - in Germany a TA won't disclose that. Particularly specialised ones give out "packages" or at the utmost modules from which the client can choose from putting together a more personalized itinerary.

Furthermore: Many specialists - not only in Germany but I know that also from Australia - consult the first 30 min. FOC. Then the client informs the TO whether he/she is interested in further consultation. That leads to a credit card slip of let's say 250AU$/200€ depending on expected volume of the trip. If the client finally chooses another TO at least the first one has got a payment for his/her work.

To me that sound just.

SV

FP
Would you have thought that this your thread would become that famous?

Excellent! Well done !

((@)) SV

Leely
THX for the smiley! LOVE it!

SV, thanks for your reply. However, it seems to me that you're saying that TO/TAs don't wish to disclose the commission or markup that they charge.

And that's where I believe the system is a failure.

As a consumer, why should I not be able to know if Agency A is charging 20% and Agency B 25%? You're telling me, in essence, that I ought to make a consumer decision without knowing the price I'm paying for an agent's services. I certainly wouldn't use a lawyer or financial consultant without first knowing his/her charges for professional services -- why should a travel agent be any different?

I believe that agencies should be allowed to publish the rates at which they will sell you trips. Tell me how much per night you'll charge at each lodge, tell me how much you'll charge for inter-camp transfers, etc. Tell me how much you'll charge for your expertise, if you want to charge separately for that.

It used to be the case that consumers relied heavily on TA/TOs both to make arrangements <b>and</b> for expertise. The latter function is not nearly so important now -- the Internet has usurped that function -- so informed consumers ought to be able to just purchase their accommodations and transfers (without having to pay an additional charge for expertise) if they're willing to do their own research.

Rizutto

Well, you have chosen to compare a lawyer and his/her service with that of a TO! Excellent.
Particularly as a lawyer charges from the first minute you get his/her consultation.

From a TO you get the first 30 mins FOC - but what you want is the full service for zero!

If you have consulted a lawyer and switch to another one you get a receipt for the time his/she has spent on you, doesn't he/she.

Now I try another way around to get across what I mean:

A travel agent charges a "price" for a product. It's not just his service!

Since when do companies like Woolworth, Rick Steves, Costco tell you how low/big their margins are?

Finally: Most camp/lodge owners or operators request by contract from TO to not undermine a certain rate in order to not start a vicious circle.

A package - as stated before - allows a TO/TA to play with different rates/models etc. creating a "product" which is tailor-made to the client's interest, request, need.

SV

oops - forgot my new TM ((@))

A bit different than what rizzuto is saying, but-
Let's use airline tickets as an example (perhaps over simplified?)
Do you remember when (I do) to get a plane ticket you went to a travel agent? The TA took your request and then started searching for times and fares. And next day got back to you with choices. You hoped the TA did a thorough search for you. But you have changed your returning date so the TA now has to start all over. Finally, four days later you had it all worked out and got your ticket from the TA. Did you like doing it that way? Or do you prefer it now where you can search the airlines directly or use Orbitz, explore dates, and fares yourself and get instant answers? I'd like this same capability for traveling in Africa. We may be half-way there.

regards - tom

http://www.fodors.com/community/fodo...e-services.cfm

rizutto

above is an interesting thread - as you brought up lawyers ;-)

SV ((@))

Tom - good example!
The TA did not tell you the marging. Did he?
Was he obliged to tell you? NO!

He provided a service and charged. He changed and rearranged until you were satisfied! Good service.

The same with the TO! He/she also re-creates until the client is satisfied. But of course needs to be paid for the time he dedicates.

SV ((@))

SV,

Do you know what a straw argument is? It's a silly proposal that you make up and easily refute, and then claim that the person you're debating with had made the suggestion. It's a "straw" argument because it's made of a material that is very easy to knock over.

I don't care what Woolworth or Costco's margins are. I <b>do</b> care what Woolworth proposes to charge me for the 32-inch Sony HD TV and I <b>do</b> care what Costco proposes to charge for that same set. Just as I do care what you would propose to charge me for 4 nights at Lebala, 4 nights at Nxai Pan, air transfers between them and to/from Maun, with a private vehicle for my stay at Lebala. And I want to be able to compare the price if I go in August compared to March. And to see what the price difference is if I spread the trip over 1 more night, but to a 3rd camp.

With the current silly scheme, I have to make separate requests for each, with the turnaround times typically being a day, maybe more. And there should be absolutely no reason that you don't post those prices on a web site. But you would propose that we stick with the current model -- and that is in fact the way Woolworth and Costco and all retailers more or less did business 10 years or so ago: if you want to know the price of something we sell, you either have to come in to the store or call us.

Well times are changing my friend. Sooner or later some operator/agent, probably one with a track record of traditional TA/TO business, is going to get wise enough to turn into an online business. Put all the information online, let people put together their own trip online. Until the ground operators and camps get smart and can integrate their systems, the online TA/TO would need to manually verify and reserve availability. It will happen, and a great many of the rinky-dink TAs will find their market evaporate.

In the 21 century, it's strange that most people still rely on TA's to book their safaris ... Some of the ground operators have excellent websites (with regular updates) and you can find a lot of trip reports of indepedent travellers on the web.

Because ground operators are also aware of this, they reward TA's with a high commission to provide them with the necessary clientele. As long as this selective distribution model is used, clients will pay too much for their safaris.

Other possible reasons for today's high prices are the formation of cartels and greed ...

Are TA's knowledgeable??? Some of them really are but they are the minority. This is how it often goes ... client X asks a specific question and the TA doesn't know the answer ... he /she sends the question to the ground operator and after he/she receives the answer, the client is also getting a reply to her/his original question.

Some of the people posting here have more knowledge on safaris than some of the agents who frequent Fodor's.

Commission: percentage based or fixed - definitely fixed depending on how much hours spend to put together the trip. If the commission is percentage based (which is now the case), TA's are mostly thinking about their own deep pockets.
The fact that some of these agents have close ties with certain operators (which most clients doesn't know) also doesn't help to get a honest opinion.

I can see the case for paying a fixed sum for the consultation of the TA's services (even if you don't book the trip with him/her...).

rizutto
ONLINE booking is good for people who know exactly what they want.

I was talking of people who need to be phoned, interests evaluated, visited, want brochures - a personal service etc etc.

Of course for those of us who know exactly what we want - mostly ;-) - a website which offers just putting some components into a shopping card will be sufficient.

But these folks might be not available at weekend, for emergencies etc etc.

NO FRILLS TA - might work for some.

SV

gish - forgot my (new) TM ((@))

SV,

It is a myth that agents look after you whilst in Africa.

If there is an emergency on the ground, it is the operator on the ground that deals with it 99% of the time, not your agent back in Europe.

"cary999 on Nov 12, 09 at 12:34pm

look (LOL) who's talking about Tom's Dick is Harry!!!"

Where's the smiley for that?

And what would Linda Richman say now?

"Where's the smiley for that?"
The smiley I wanted to put for that is not supported by Fodors, a family friendly web site :-)

regards - tom

Wow, you are right where have I been? Oh,right Ida is spreading her wealth of rain on us, along with wind,a few floods, etc.
But I can't wait to get back and see what I've missed.

I am still waiting for my final talley..with a breakdown of course.
lodgings - air - transport
Not too much to ask I think.

FP

What Rizzuto (not an arborio rice dish, LaughOutLowd) said. What Tom said. What Skimmer said. (And hey, I didn't know you were an item, Tom and Rizzuto! You must be "bi" coastal...)

I don't care about margins. I care about the cost to me. I need to shop around to get the best price. Ergo, I want transparency.

As for my contention about LOL's disdain for customers, I rest my case. You're in the retail business, buddy (or, madam). Get over yourself.

Now, I'm going to get myself a ((D))

To All Folks
There are some good points here. Lets try and keep this post civil and respect everyones opinion without malice.

I as a TO can offer advise from my side and you as the consumer can offer or tell us what you need. Together we can smooth the operation out and make sure everyone is happy in the end.

A few points I would like to add is that my agency does NOT charge for consulting. One of my senior consultants who has had 7 years experience with a major TA wanted to introduce it 4 years ago and I refused.

Another is the word used above "greed". I have 2 degrees behind me, Civil (structural) Engineering and Computer Science but 2 decades ago I chose to follow my heart and passion which is wildlife. I do this because I love it.

Folks, keep this thread active and productive and have a great weekend.

Happy Safaris

LOL,

As a novice amongst the more experienced posters here, my questions (sometimes spot on;more than likely just dumb)but ALWAYS answered and taken seriously endears me to the forum in general. I do understand as a "TO" you probably take offense to others you feel may be interfering in your field of expertise.

But reality here is the internet, and these forums have evolved to the point where a consumer is educated much more than in the past when all they saw was a brochure...and pretty much trusted their local travel agent to tell them what to do."Just book it"

That has changed; and with that I think (my opinion only) that the whole travel industry must adapt to that. If I see a rate posted on a website (and they are) why can't I ask the "TO" to do better than the rack rack - and how much better? Of course I'd want to get the best price (if only to enable me to stay longer on safari) Just like we shop for the best prices on airfare now to get to our destination; I want to know what I am paying. That is reality. I am not the person l0 years ago who would look at brochure price and say, ok.book it. I personally prefer different type camps than a group of say 20 would, and of course that group of 20 gets a much better deal. BUT, I still want to know where my hard earned money goes, just as you feel your hard earned hours put into planning a trip should be rewarded.

What is the answer? I have no idea, but I do think - as the above posters reiterated; travel has changed; consumers are more educated and research quite a bit. There has to be an answer but I admit I do not know what it is.


I certainly do not want to get into a shouting match, but if it makes you so unhappy for educated consumers to contact you, then I do think you are in the wrong business - but it sounds like you are getting out soon anyway. So good for you - travel, enjoy your life and check back in on occasion to see how all are doing.


I appreciate your wishes to me for a happy safari. I worked long and hard to accomplish this so I am sure I will have a grin on my face every day!

Thanks for your thoughts on my "original" posted question -which somehow evolved into another aspect of Operators- but it is what forums are all about.

I don't agree with everything I read here but I do love the options offered to me, the opinions of better versed folks in the safari world, and those that just like to post opinions. It is interesting, educational and sometimes just downright funny.
I can't imagine not sharing with Fodors as I never know what the response will be. You just can't take everything personally. Keep doing what you love in life and if it makes you happy - well you are lucky.

And,I do intend to talk to each and every TO I contacted and explain to them WHY I have gone elsewhere. If I want full disclosure from them I will certainly return it.

OK..By next week I should be able to post my TRIP ITINERARY - very superstituous until signed ,sealed & delivered!
FIRST MIGRATION, yay....can't wait.

Thanks to all for your involvement in my trip planning!

Fp

ilbj2
Now you obviously paid/got the wrong consultant!

My very first safari we had an overbooking and a plane delay in SA for Maun.
One SMS/textmessage to my SC in Germany sorted all out.

Cost me 10 €cents!

Maybe I paid her too much (marginally might have been 100€) but paid off in the end!

You guys just shop around on the net - as I do. I am connected to a lot of people in SA/EA and I am a privaté. No matter if I get stuck for a couple of days. Doesn't hurt me.
But in the earlier days it was quite good to have one to come to our rescue!

As stated: Booking yourself is excellent if you know what you are doing. For all others a decent SC might be the better option.


And yes - everybody deserves to earn! :-)

SV - happy landings! ((@))