Classic Hunting Safaris site completey taken down?!

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Apr 3rd, 2004, 05:11 PM
  #21
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Province,

I drive a Range Rover, no different than is done on my safaris in Africa. I have a spare car, a convertible two seat roadster, sitting in my garage that I won't even bother to take for a spin until summer.

I eat red meat, have a few leather belts, do not buy free range products and do not believe in looking a beautiful animal in the eyes and then squeezing the trigger, thus ending its life so that I may pose next to its carcass.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but y'all don't happen to be from Texas, do you? Home of some serious canned hunting and some of the biggest pro-hunting organizations out there.

As soon as you can point out a co-relation between me driving a monster SUV and the needless killing of animals in Africa, perhaps I will reconsider. Otherwise, it is a great vehicle for transferring my seven adopted dogs, each of whom may already be dead if I didn't pick most of them up off the street, with the two exceptions being one that was adopted from the Inhumane Society and the other being bought from a petstore after I couldn't bear to watch him, a purebred Pembroke Corgi, nearly celebrate his 1st birthday in a cage.

So, you can take your little speech and you probably have a pretty good idea what you can do with it. You have zero credibility with me and I have wasted more effort than you deserve with this response. Buh-bye.
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Apr 3rd, 2004, 08:10 PM
  #22
LizFrazier
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Province-
I see you live in Capetown. You make a point I too have questioned here on more than one occasion when I see others telling Africans how to run their country. That is, what happened to our wild animals? Uh, what does that have to do with your wild animals? It is a difficult question to answer so we don't like to be asked that.
Actually it isn't our business how you run your country. We run ours as we see fit and leave us alone I guess.
At the risk of inflaming people, I think you could have been answered in a civil tone and without sarcasm. You did make a point. My husband and I too drive an SUV, although it is a smaller one. Conservation wasn't on our mind when we bought it. I do care about global warming and I guess most of us feel it just isn't up to us alone to resolve. Or whatever. Thanks for your posts. Liz
 
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Apr 3rd, 2004, 08:50 PM
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Roccco,

There you go again!!!

I certainly dont want to get embroiled in this new turn of events in this thread but if only you knew more about South Africa as a resident expert and not a tourist or internet surfer expert. If this was the case you would have definitely recognised that somebody who signs off as "Province" has a definitive link to Cape Town and believe me if you were at the REAL coalface of things in SA you would have known why this is the case. The word and name "Province" has a definitive Cape Town link and I really had to laugh hugely when you so ignorantly placed the writer in Texas only because of your own preconceived ideas about some of your own countrymen or otherwise what I think was Province's style of writing. Anyway I am not going to go into this any further, after all by your own admission in a previous mail you could have been one of the better investigative journalists around.

Take that you "expert scum".
(The above statement refers to the function of "yuppy scum" when used as a term in the past history of the world, however is definitely used in jest in this mail) <grin>

Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa





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Apr 3rd, 2004, 10:06 PM
  #24
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Cape Town Whizzkid,

Why are you here? Perhaps you are better off sticking to the recommendation of non-commercial bed and breakfasts and the bad mouthing of top notch hotels such as the Twelve Apostles. I do think that you are out of your element in anything but Western Cape discussion. While I may be 10,000 miles further away from the action than you are, methinks that you best leave the non-Cape Town discussion to others.

Buh-bye.
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Apr 3rd, 2004, 10:41 PM
  #25
 
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Province, Toyota Prius hybrid here. Before they were available, I've had my share of gas-guzzlers too. As more hybrids come out this fall, my friends are eager to buy them. There is a 6 month wait now for this car. You don't have to plug them in as with the old electric cars and in most ways they are just like the totally gas-powered cars (except you don't really turn the key, the key just has to be sitting in the car someplace). It is wonderful, has the same amount of accelleration as most cars and is nice and quiet at stop lights where it turns off the motor (but then easily starts again when you step on the gas). You are absolutely right that the US is a terrible polluter but please remember that the majority of the citizens voted for the democratic presidential candidate who had a far better track record for the environment than the man who "took" office. But the point here is that we as tourists who love Africa want to see the endangered wildlife preserved from sport hunting by international tourists. The hope is that the poor African nations will see they can profit more by preserving the wildlife than killing it. For once you've killed that leopard, and taken the fee for it, that's it.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 12:32 AM
  #26
 
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Province

What gives anybody any right to do anything in the world? That seems to be your position? If that is so then we may as well not exist on earth and let it be as virgin as possible.

The fact is western democracies and now emerging East European and Asian democracies have been hugely successful and their citizens as a result have been able to travel to Africa and elsewhere which in turns supports the game reserves and conservation projects. The visitors pass on their African experience to their friends who in turn become future vistors - a virtual cycle is created that benefits Africa hugely (I am using Africa as an example but there are other places such as Costa Rica which have benefited from their eco-friendly tourism). There is no doubt that the successes of these economies have been accompanied by several problems and one of them is global warning. The US is the biggest contributor to that but that does not mean many of its citizens, non-citizens, pressure groups and other governements are lying idle, they are in fact putting the US government under a lot of pressure. Similalry I do not see why African governements cannot be put under pressure by various bodies. Look at Zimbabwe where a despot treating his own people in the same way as hunters treat the wildlife is getting away with murder simply because western governments are unable to put any more pressure than they already have! How can they when South Africa, Africa's strongest and most powerful democracy, is the biggest supporter of the despot.

Global warning is certainly threatening the survival of all species including man and deserves to be tackled in the same way as hunting deserves to be, with more vigorous opposition than ever before. But my estimation is that before Global Warming finishes us off, hunting will finish off the wildlife species first - whales are being wiped out by over-zealous hunters, Kenyan elephants almost got wiped out in the 70s and 80s because of poachers and only recovered when government banned hunting (here the politicians were probably in cahoots with the poachers and the ivory traders), bush hunting is wiping out lowland gorillas in Congo, only 600 mountain gorillas remain (many were eliminated by hunters from the west for their feet)....the list goes on. Western-style hunting is also setting a bad example to the local Africans - why can't they hunt wildlife when westerners are allowed to for trophies and restaraunts for game meat. Kenya is now thinking of banning game ranching because it has realised that the local population is hunting wildlife for meat and using game-meat restaurants as their excuse to do so. So as you can see, apart from hunting being a cruel non-regulated blood sport which only benefits the hunters and the pockets of a few politicians in the African governments, it is also destroying the will of the local people to preserve wildlife for the future generations. Tourism is wildlife's only hope, not hunting nor African governments whose politicians love their ill-gotten mercedeces and Range Rovers more than most other western consumers.

As for Mr Classic Africa, who loves revelling in his Oxford and Vet qualifications, he is the worst kind of hunter and a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'.

Selwyn please stick to Cape Town if you are going to continue making silly remarks.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 03:15 AM
  #27
 
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Province and Selwyn

Aren't you proud of western governments who put sanctions on apartheid South Africa and eventually helped to bring democracy to your country?

Only because of that you are now able to say 'Very Proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa'.

Think of hunting as 'wildlife apartheid'. Wouldn't you be even prouder when all hunting is stopped?
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Apr 4th, 2004, 03:42 AM
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king, thanks for your thoughtful reply too. I drafted the below response before I saw your post. First of all, I'm not trying to deny you the right to campaign against something that you consider to be wrong. I do think, however, that your focus is in the wrong place. It is my position that in the here and now South Africa, that hunting will not be allowed to extinguish precious natural resources. If you have proof to the contrary please let me know. Global warming however is a much much more serious problem than I think you realize. But see, someone like Roccco doesn't want to give up his SUV because then he'd have to be one making the "sacrifice". It is in this double standard that the big problem lies. You also point to lobby groups in your country. Problem is your country also has big Oil and big Auto and other big industry lobby groups. Which ones are pulling the strings?

-----------------------------

Clematis and Liz, thank you for your thoughtful responses. Roccco, come now, yours was unnecessarily vehement and aggressive.

First of all I?m a South African, born and bred, resident in Cape Town. I did my MSc Eng on renewable energy ? photovoltaic systems specifically. I have never hunted and I never will. I have no heating or air conditioners in my home. I drive a small car that gets 16 km / l.

It is very unlikely that my country will allow the extinction of species due to hunting. Hunting is a manageable activity and as such will be stopped if they feel that hunting is in danger of threatening the valuable resource we have in our natural heritage.

Now onto this other issue: rampant consumerism, energy consumption, the pollution that result from it and the global warming that it causes is the single biggest threat to every living thing on this planet. The USA is the single biggest culprit by far. I?m no USA basher; I?ve been to the USA and I quite liked the place and the people but I say the above because it is the truth.

I?m going to quote a few paragraphs from the Michael Moore book, Stupid White Men. Whatever you may think of Mr. Moore try to keep an open mind and actually consider the following:

??The internal combustion engine has done more to create global warming than anything else on the planet. Almost half the pollutants in our air come from the stuff that spews out of your car ? and that air pollution is the cause of some 200,000 deaths per year. Global warming is jacking up the world?s temperature year after year, which can cause increased risk of drought in some countries and have dangerous effects on agriculture and health. We?re perilously close to creating a horrible calamity if we don?t figure out how to turn down the heat.
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Clinton?s greatest gift to the Big Three auto makers was exempting SUVs from the mileage requirements of regular passenger cars. Because of this exemption, these gas gluttons use up an extra 280,000 barrels of fuel each day. That fuel demand is one of the reasons the Bush administration is pushing to drill in the Arctic National Preserve in Alaska. Bush says the drilling will give us an extra 580,000 barrels of oil each day, enough to double the number of SUVs on the road.
And yet consider: if SUVs had been forced by Clinton to meet the same gas mileage standards my minivan meets (an improvement of only a few miles per gallon), Bush would have no justification for drilling in Alaska.
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In June 2001, a panel of top American scientists reported that global warming was a real problem, and it was getting worse. In their study, requested by the Bush 2 White House, the group of eleven leading atmospheric scientists (including several who were previously skeptical about the scope of the problem) concluded that human activity is largely responsible for the warming of the earth?s atmosphere ? and that we are in serious trouble as a result.
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Last summer, though, something happened that I found slightly shocking. The New York Times reported that for the first time in recorded history the North Pole had? melted. A shipload of scientists boated right up to the top of the world ? and the ice was gone! The news induced such panic that within days the Times ran a correction, trying to reassure us: it wasn?t really melted, just a little squishy. Right.
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The last Ice Age was the result of a global temperature change of only 9 degrees. Right now, we?re halfway there. Some experts are predicting a rise in temperature of 10.4 degrees just in the next century. In Venezuela, four of the country?s six glaciers have melted since 1972. The fabled snows of Kilimanjaro are almost gone. When the lighthouse at Cape Hatteras was built in 1870, it was 1,500 feet from the shore; by now the tide has risen to within 160 feet of it, and the lighthouse has had to be moved farther inland.??

Do you see my problem? You are campaigning against the managed shooting dead of beautiful animals in poor African countries where they are allowing it because their people are starving and they need the forex ? but at the same time you and your 280 million plus compatriots are indulging in a consumerist lifestyle that will lead to the EXTINCTION of those same beautiful animals ? by stealth. How many countries refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, Roccco, and who were they? Your charity to stray dogs, commendable as it is, will count for nothing in the long run.

I say again: you are barking up the wrong tree. My country, in the modern day, will not allow HUNTING to EXTINGUISH precious natural resources. Your rampant consumerism will.

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone but I read your posts on trying to stop hunting in African countries where these countries need the revenue for survival and I felt that it was time someone held up a mirror and told you: ?Take a look at yourself.?

PS: Clematis, please please please read Stupid White Men if you have not done so already. Specifically the chapters: Democrats, DOA and Nice Planet, Nobody Home. I think it will open your eyes.

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Apr 4th, 2004, 04:09 AM
  #29
 
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Agreed excessive consumerism and global warming are a huge problem and many people are trying to do something about it but why shouldn't someone also try to do something about hunting? Just because Stupid White Men doesn't mention anything about hunting does not mean that hunting is fine to practice like you suggest?

You seem to put a lot of faith in your government and their ability to control hunting - what about the canned hunts, illegal hunts... that take place in your country?? Why is the government unable to control that? You just have to look at other African governments and wonder how long before South Africa and its laws begin to crumble in the same way?

At least we are taking a moral stand on an issue that we feel strongly about and are willing to do something about it. What do you do except quote Stupid White Men and continue to drive a vehicle that still consumes fuel...Why don't you walk instead or ride a bike like a lot of people who care about the environment do? No question here who has the double standards.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 04:45 AM
  #30
 
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My country will not go the same way as other African governments. Period.

Like I said, I work in the field of renewable energy resources.

I drive a car that consumes fuel because I cannot afford to buy a hybrid. Since the USA is both the richest country in the world and also the biggest polluter it is their responsibilty to take the lead. The Kyoto Protocol was designed to give developing countries leaway on pollution issues so that an unbearable burden is not placed on their struggling economies. Just like your countries developed their economies quickly during the industrial revolution through the use of cheap and polluting technologies.

Your reference to the canned hunts doesn't make sense. If those hunts were threatening the survival of species it would be stopped. I do in fact have great faith in my government's conservation record since they are the driving force behind the establishment of the world's first transfrontier parks and are actively enlarging parks like the Kruger and are re-introducing game into other parks in the country. Again, if you have proof that hunting is threatening the survival of species in this country please show me.

I didn't suggest hunting is a "fine" practice. I am saying that I understand why it is allowed and you do not. I am saying that there are far bigger threats on this planet to the sustainability of wildlife than hunting. You and your SUVs are that threat.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 08:26 AM
  #31
 
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Can you explain to me why global warming and hunting both cannot be considered harmful to the survival of wildlife species? I have given you examples of species almost hunted to extinction.

You seem to think that your country can do no wrong even when today it produces the same SUVs as the rest of the world, even when it committed so many injustices in the past. You continue to blame US even when your country polluted Africa for years using coal to provide energy. Your country is no different from other industialized nations. In fact it is worse because in US and other countries we at least have the option to buy environmentally-friendly cars. Not so in your country. What use is your expertise?

I am wondering why you are so supportive of hunting...I don't need to give you any proof, my moral stance is good enough for me.

I can safely say to you that we will never see eye to eye. You continue driving and ruining the environment and we will continue working against hunting and saving the wildlife.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 08:52 AM
  #32
 
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This is my swansong mail from this whole debate which I think is sort of getting out of hand as it is starting to have less to do with travel by the day.

I will end off with a couple of points?

If the hunting issue is such a big one (as I believe it should be) why has nobody at any stage in this debate asked the question "Who is actually doing the real hunting; after all who is the culprit, the killer or the man who offers the killing fields. I think this is a hard question to answer but I do believe that both are guilty. My question is why are we only looking at the man who offers the killing fields, how about looking at the hunters and where they come from? Why does the governments of the countries where the hunters originate from do nothing about what their citizens are doing wwwhen it comes to hunting in their own countries or abroad?

Roccco in terms of your great knowledge about our country from 10,000 miles away and your comment about my limited knowledge of my own country barring the Western Cape if that be what you feel then so be it. Just a couple of small pointers and that is that I am born and raised in SA, have been a citizen of this country for 54 years, qualified as an engineer at a South African university and have a tourguide qualification that says that I know the Western Cape as well as Eastern Cape (obtained with a first class pass) pretty well too. What is more is I am now in the process of qualifying as a South Africa national guide (there are only 10 national guides in SA at the moment) but dont worry about these facts as they obviously dont count when you evaluate information about tourism in SA.

King in parting your statement about sanctions and the countries that brought them on SA, thus being the big contributor to changes made in the country are off target as far as SA politics are concerned. Yes sanctions did make a difference to what happened in SA however the affect that it had was probably worth 5% of what really brought the Nationalist government to its knees. What really brought about the miraculous changes that SA went through in the early nineties was no one else other than THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH AFRICA themselves and yes with me being one of those people who was very active politically during this period as well as in the 70's and 80's I very very very proudly end my mails as follows:

Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa

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Apr 4th, 2004, 08:55 AM
  #33
 
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Province, thanks, this book has been on my reading stack right under his latest one. I will definitely get to it now. Was just listening to Moore on the new Air America radio station. You have no argument from me that the US is a ghastly force in the world, especially now, and we are working on changing that, believe me. But may I say I don't agree with your logic argument. Just because our current government does not respect the environment does not mean we shouldn't have an opinion about endangered wildlife in Africa. Dian Fossey was an American, after all.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 09:05 AM
  #34
 
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Selwyn, my post was written as yours was being posted. Good points about trying to deal with hunting from both ends. Can someone actually declare to US customs they are bringing in a dead leopard or are they smuggling them in?

That is great about the national guide qualification.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 09:59 AM
  #35
 
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king, my country can and does do evil. But on the topic we are discussing you are wrong.

You asked me to respond to the examples of animals almost hunted to extinction. None of the examples you have given relate to South Africa. What do you want me to say about your examples then?

As for your questions about me owning a car and our own pollution habits: I need to travel hundreds of kilometers to get to my work sites. We do not have mass transit and neither can we afford to install it while we are trying to build houses and provide clean drinking water for millions of our people. Yet, with our limited means we are trying to do what we can. Hence, for example, a very unpopular ban on supplying free plastic bags in supermarkets was instituted. It has led to an 85% reduction in the amount of plastic bags going into our landfills. Are they supplying free bags in the USA? If so why don't they stop it - it's such a simple thing.

Cleaning up and reducing pollution costs money. We cannot tackle that at the moment. 40% of our population is unemployed. 50% of our population lives below the poverty line. Do you understand what these numbers mean? You want to apply the same rules to us that should apply to you - yet you conveniently ignored what I told you about the fact the Koyoto agreement specifically made provision for allowing developing countries leeway on pollution issues to allow them to catch up in development. You've had your chance to willfully spew gunk into our atmosphere - more so than we can ever "hope" to produce and you have built your economies on the back of that. Yet now you want us to play by your rules concerning this too, while we simply cannot afford it?

Back to the central topic of hunting. You are expecting us to stop managed hunting. Terrific. So a few more of our people who worked as rangers, trackers, staff and their families must starve so that we can have the privilege of keeping the animals in trust for you until you decide to honor us with a visit to come and check them out. I'm afraid it CANNOT work like this. The animals simply must pay their way and if that includes controlled hunting then so be it.

I do not like hunting, king. But I do not support a ban on hunting either because I know that it is bringing in revenue and putting food on the table for many of our people. If you can show me the proof, like I have asked you, that hunting in South Africa is threatening the extinction of species or that South Africa?s conservation policy is failing ? then I promise to change my stance.

In the mean time I am still waiting for a reply from Roccco. Why do you indulge in self-righteous posturing on the topic of hunting while you yourself, like millions of your compatriots, are indulging in a consumerist lifestyle that is threatening our entire planet? That was the central question before king sidetracked things with references to Zimbabwe and what not.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 10:37 AM
  #36
LizFrazier
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Selwyn-
You were posting here even before I came on the scene. It was a kinder, gentler place then and who would have thought it would deteriorate so quickly to one poster telling another they knew so little about their specialty, or just what topics were acceptable for them to post about here?
If the majority of posters could be asked, without fear of being jumped all over and ridiculed, how they wish this site were, I believe most if not all would wish for the nicer days of apologies for their blunders or more thoughtful replies. I too left Fodors because of the bashing over things people really didn't know about. I missed some of my friends and came back. If it gets any more upsetting and rude, I will probably leave again and the bashers can talk to themselves.

I truly hope you are not leaving Fodors, just these type of threads here. It is amazing that you can have 2 different things going on at the same time here. One being civil and nice, the other being the bashing and rudeness.

You have provided a real service here and we cannot afford to lose you. You are part of the very heart of this forum and provide a service the others cannot replace. I hope you get to see this. Liz
 
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Apr 4th, 2004, 10:50 AM
  #37
 
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Well Liz, I for one would like to apologize for offending you. Selwyn, this thread has been non-travel related from the start. I'm actually half-hoping that Fodors will delete this, because you are right, this isn't the place.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 11:16 AM
  #38
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Province-
You didn't offend me. I think you defended yourself. I considered your posts well thought out and straight forward. You're right they aren't about travel, but neither is this entire thread plus a few more like it. It is the language and sarcasm (bashing) that I and others I am sure, object to. How very kind of you to apologize, but very unnecessary. Sorry I made you feel that way. Stick around and maybe things will go back to the excitement of travelling and trips again soon. At least it will for me in another 10 days. Yahooooooooo!!!!! Liz
 
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Apr 4th, 2004, 11:18 AM
  #39
 
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Province, I respectfully disagree. This thread has a direct relation on whether we want to choose a particular operator/agent of African safaris. One thing about America is we are sensitive about not quashing free speech. This is a viable discussion about African travel choices that has good information from various sides.
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Apr 4th, 2004, 02:05 PM
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Liz,

Thank you for your wise words. Let me just mention that when I spoke of my swansong mail I was ONLY talking about the mails pertaining to this thread. Strictly speaking I should not by those words even respond to your mail in this thread however I felt it was appropriate to do so because of the content of your mail. With that said believe me in the future you will see me around in other South Africa travel related threads on this board however I wont be particpating in this one from hereon.

In terms of the "old Fodor days" I could not agree with you more about how things used to be and I also long for a return to this period. The problem I face is that in this so called "old period" the writers on this board would offer advice freely and in a friendly way. It is for this very reason that I get so aggravated when writers start talking about the phenomenal amounts that they have saved others and start beating their chests with drumrolls for their efforts. I dont contribute on Fodors for any other reason other than wanting to ensure that those who visit my great country find the very best available to them travel wise. My pleasure comes from their smiles when they leave our shores or thank you notes when they return home. That is all that I seek for what I deem to be good solid advice. I gain the impression that this is the way that by far the majority of good contributors to this board think and act. I say wonderful work to every one of these folk who contribute so much to making this board a great one.

To those who want to write mails in a braggartish manner so as to pat themselves on the back for every penny they save others etc what more can I say other than they can do whatever they want to do as no-one can stop them, least of all me. With that said there is an easy solution to this all as far as I am concerned and that is as soon I see this attitude I will simply just leave the mail alone and get on in the old normal way.

Liz once again thank you for the very wise words.

In response to a very important mail after Liz's mail, I have to mention that I agree with Clematis in terms of writing up as much as possible on all tour operators etc so that everyone can make an informed choice via this board as to their travel plans. I truly believe that this is the kernel factor that makes this board work so well. With that said nothing stops us all from doing this in a decent, non boasting manner. Just remember it is great to help others simply for the sake of doing so.

Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
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