Thanks all for your input.

I should be going on a last minute basis as from what I read animals tend to move. Also targeting a particular camp maybe isn't a smart idea.

I haven't said anything about the year yet but I am planning to go in 2009 as camps won't be full at all due to the obvious reasons.

What's my plan - I'll contact some of these operators directly and tell them that I am mainly interested in wild dogs and cheetahs and I am willing to come from the moment they located the den and it's accessible and that I am prepared to pay a certain price (set by me - slightly above the green season rate from the companies whose rate in that season in based on a cost basis). I also don't see the need to pay a single supplement as the camps aren't full anyway.

Let's see if they want to have my business or not. I am sure at a certain point some of them will be dying for business.

If not, there are always alternatives but I am not gonna pay those high rates which only benefit the shareholders/travel agents.

Booking mobiles on a last minute basis is a bit more difficult I suppose as they tend to book their camping sites in advance.

I'll keep you informed about my endeavours.

George

"What I don't like is the lack of price transparency in all this."

I’m a little late coming into this conversation but I appreciate your frustration with the lack of price transparency issue. I had never used agents to book a holiday but when looking at Botswana I found I couldn’t contact the camps directly for prices and was directed to agents. Dealing with agents via email was mind-bogglingly frustrating – to me anyway. To take first agent I tried as example - I asked for the price at XX camp for 3 nights. They replied wanting whole list of information before they would give me a quote, including nationality, ages, where traveling from, etc etc. I supplied the information and was then quoted an itinerary for 8 nights and XX and XY camps including international flights. I had to write back repeating my original request for a nightly tariff – until I had some idea of price I couldn’t plan a thing …. To cut a long story short they eventually said it wasn’t worth their while dealing with such a small booking (3 nights only and no ‘add-ons’) and couldn’t give me a quote. By the time I’d done this a few times with different agents and got similar results I was so fed up I abandoned the whole idea of going anywhere I couldn’t book directly. We ended up renting a 4x4 with rooftop tent instead and had a fab time! (despite dire warnings from same agents that this was impossible and we’d end up as lion-fodder or worse).

I doubt that the camps lost sleep over losing our 3 nights bookings (x2 people), but it seems short-sighted to miss out on capturing a new client who might well enjoy the experience so much they’d return for longer and spend more in the future. I have to add that it wasn’t just the expensive camps I take issue with, a guest house in Kasane wanted to know what nationality we were before they gave us a price, and we went elsewhere with published rates.

So good luck and I hope you find an agent who gets you what you want, the majority of travellers seem to book this way so it must work for them, but I too would like to see more transparency.

George

I've thought about the last minute trip to see a dog den. It seems to me that Mala Mala in the Sabi Sand offers a great opportunity to do that. They post details of their sightings within a week of them happening, furthermore, availablity and pricing is totally transparent, its right their on their web site and you can book direct.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I use MM as an example because I'm familiar with them and they have had a dog den twice in the last five years, and the information is easy to obtain, also the size of the camp means availability might be easier to come by.

Matt

Matt,

I can't see why Mala Mala is transparent and operators in Botswana aren't at all.

What do they have to hide? Outrageous commissions???, Block bookings???.

I prefer to handle with the person who provides the product/service rather than with unneccessary middlemen. They don't need to tell me where I have to go and why should they be allowed a big commission anyway as I would tell what I want rather than they suggesting me where I should go to fill their pockets. Wasn't there an agent who said he knew where the game was. As he/she can predict a year in advance what is going to happen in such a dynamic environment.



I have considered Mala Mala but running wild with the dogs there, will be a bit difficult given the terrain.

Also the number of vehicles around, wouldn't help me much as there are only a number of them allowed at a sighting and I guess everyone wants to see the dogs. So that means pulling out early.


George

I agree with you George, going to Mala to see dogs is risky, their territory is just too small to guarantee a sighting. Also never a guarantee that the dogs will even be there.

From my experience in the Sabi Sands and I worked there for ten years, is that dogs were a real treat when they came through and an even bigger one if they elected to den in the sands.

To reply to your earlier response to my replies.

Transparency: Not sure where you're going with this, but prices are published, what's more transparent than that?

Commissions. Well the lodges/camps employ the services of agent and operators world wide to supply them with travellers. Some are better than others and earn a commission for their supply. Those that have better marketing probably have a greater supply so their rate of pay is higher... again a supply and demand equation. As I said to you: You (the consumer) are always paying the commission, it is a cost of business and therefor built into the rack/published rate. If you book direct you will be charged that rate, with no break coming your way because you avoided the distribution network.

Booking direct. Yes quite a peculiar practice designed really to placate the distribution channel for starters. Secondarily reduce the reservations staff quota at the companies HQ. Some of the larger operators in Bots have a "special" network of agents around the world whom they feed with consumer enquiries ensuring their loyalty so it seems to be a carefully thought out win win plan.

Hazy skies are a result of high humidity and bush fires so if that was the sky you were trying to avoid, don't travel in Nov - March. However the chance of a bad in Africa even then are minute!

Cheers

Mkhonzo,

So if I understand it correctly I have to set up my own travel agency to avoid those hideous commissions of 30 percent and more.

If you book directly you are still charged the same price because otherwise the travel agencies won't provide the operator with clients. Is that it?

I don't see any transparency from the companies themselves.

I can't see the prices published on their official websites neither can I see which percentage of the rooms is booked and paid for or held provisionally by preferential agents as this turned to be a general practive there as I heard.
F.e. let's say I want to go to camp X in July 2010 for 7 days and they tell me it's fully booked and they can only provide me with 3 nights. I agree and book the camp for 3 days now and when I arrive there 18 months later I only see an occupancy of 60%. What do I have to think about this???

What I definitely see are monthly publicity reports which aren't of the same quality as the ones of f.e. Mala Mala.

I thought bush fires were mostly a problem at the end of the dry season.

I am just a critical customer and I have the feeling something is wrong here. Am I the only one that have these thoughts?

Anyway, I continue with my plan previously explained.

Cheers,

George

Hi George

I also can not see your issue on transparency or commissions

It is very straight forward – a lodge costs a certain amount – for example Mombo which was lodge that you were enquiring about in your first post costs $1,770 per person per night (high season). If you talk to Wilderness (who own it) this is what you will be charged.

If you book through an (honest) agent this is what they will charge you. And they will make their money from commission which has no impact on the price that you pay

With regard to availability nowadays most loges have an online reservations system which allows agents (and potentially customers) to see directly what the availability is at any time though this availability will obviously change throughout the year

No george, I don't think you are the only one that thinks this way, there are many prudent and thrifty shoppers looking for a deal. Armed with the right info you could well negotiate your way into one.

The commssions might be hideous, however for the lodge operators there are a massive cost of the business and I am sure that if they could avooid paying agency commissions they would.

As an example a 14 bed camp has a rate of $500 a night.
At 365 days in a year they have a turn over potential of: $2.5 million. If they were to pay 30% to agents, they are giving away nearly $1 mill. Ouch. If I were operating that business I would be evaluating the costs carefully, examining if I could get the same turn over spending $1 mill on marketing globally. Chances are that over over 5 major source markets I would have potentially $200 k to spend in each market, which would likely give me very very limited exposure anywhere translating into a very bad decision. Also, bare in mind that the figure is computed on a 100% occupancy, which is NOT possible, so figure a 60% occupancy at full rates, assuming that all things are equal, no down season, rate reduction etc, then I will only have $500k to spend world wide... point is I am not going to break even and I haven't even discussed the cost of running a reservations office etc.... so, you go on beat up the system and find our discount sand the horrendous commission. I hope that you are fortunate in your endeavours...

Oh and also, if you are for example offered three nights in place of 6, then accept, requesting that you get waitlisted for the balance and should their sale not materialise then, you'll be happy to accept the additional nights for 30% less, overall a 15% discount to you...

Mkhonzo

Agreed on the likelihood of dogs in SSGR, but I did specifically state that when they den on MM, it's known quickly and you would be able to get there without many issues at short notice.
As to pulling out early, unless the dogs were in the northern part of MM, the vehicle density at MM is not a problem. The dogs have (this decade at least) been in the south nearer Kirkman's, trust me there's hardly a vehicle down there most of the time.
Lastly you'd probably need a private vehicle, which would add considerably to your cost.
It sounds like you have very specific requirements without the budget to match, might be better to choose a camp with a good track record of dogs denning and go there for as long as you can at the right time and hope you get lucky, and enjoy everything else you see along the way.

Dear Tau,
I hope that I don't find myself sitting at acamp dinner table with you. I can imagine you asking how much I paid, did I pay the single supplement, and how far ahead had I booked. You would probably be grumbling that you hadn't seen wild dogs, though they had been around the week before, and strangely cheetahs were another no-show. You would surely go on about how this camp or that had failed to deliver the experience you required.
Over many years I have visited 68 camps, and not every one came up to my hopes. But, I didn't feel cheated, but felt very thankful for what I had seen.
We all want the perfect safari, but life isn't like that.
I'm only teasing you. I'm enjoying this thread so much.

Jan

George

I was cruising my TA's site getting excited about my upcoming trip to SA and guess what I found. Rack rates for all the properties they represent.

FYI

http://www.eyesonafrica.net/safari-p...rack-rates.htm

Remember the commission is paid to the agent from the company from the rack rate. If you want to pay less, then you need an agent who'll work for less and rebate some commission to you. Good luck :D

napa
very impressive site as this company deals with all the big names.
what i am missing are specials as especially for 2009 this is becoming quite common and also vital in view to eco situation.
or maybe i need new glasses ;-)

div

Div

Question was on rack rates, I guess the latest news on specials would be available either on the company sites or by talking to your TA - one of the benefits of a TA is usually up to date information, but as in most cases two heads are better than one.

I remember a few years ago, we had reservations at Makanyane and a couple of months prior to visiting they announced a web special, we advised TA who was able to negotiate the new package for us, even though we had an existing booking.

Matt

Thanks napamatt_2
What a great find, at least now we can see what places fall within our budget range, and make further enquiries if interested.

Mkhonzo,

Keep in mind that an operator like WS has many camps in its portofolio so maybe you have to adjust your calculation.

What about the block bookings. So even if I want to book now, I can't get in as travel agent X has preferential rights and I am unlucky because I use the services of travel agent Y.

Botsfan,

I know that wildlife won't show up on command. For that you'll have to go to the zoo. I just want to maximize my chances by travelling on last notice.

Napamatt,

I think there are other travel agents who have done the same. But I appreciated it if more are joining in.

If you look at the high-end side of the Botswana safari market, I got the idea that prices are kept artificially high due to the following reasons:

- high commissions,
- oligopoly.

It's not a matter if I can pay this or not. Normally, price has to agreed upon between customer and supplier and I am making them an direct offer.

Repeat customers should ask themselves the following question as the companies claim that a lot of their business is repeat business:

- let's say these commissions are for the expertise of the TA. Well after you have been there and you know the area - why should you pay those commissions over and over again? For me, it looks unethical. I wouldn't have that problem if commissions were much lower.

Cheers,

George

George,
I wasn't going to pull punches implicating any single company as I really don't know the parameters of their commissions structures. Looking at Wilderness, and you are correct, they do have numerous lodges and I will add charge a good deal more than $500 a night, however they have an ivory tower type infra structure, employ a zillion people and have shareholding that crosses many borders. So they are a corporation practicing that dirty word called: Making a profit. In business today, this I believe is not dirty and entirely necessary.

As far as I am aware the travel industry is not the only industry to employ a sales force remunerating it through commissions. Also, with such perishable goods as a bednights, it is wise that the camps afford certain loyal agents allocations. Unlike a production item such as a widget or the "bye bye bush" shoe, which can be produced to meet demand, bednights are finite. Therfore if the camp sells out agent X has no inventory to sell and will sell other, potentially, competitor camps or lodges.

Sadly for us, the consumer, the cost of international distribution is high and we pay the price for being exposed to the product in outer Saginaw or similar.

I will add though that I support your endeavours to take up the battle with corporations running the camps in the wilderness and am hopeful that you are able to whittle them down to quacking in their boots at the prospect of losing your business and that you get your fair deal, sans commission and sans single supplement.

George

" let's say these commissions are for the expertise of the TA. Well after you have been there and you know the area - why should you pay those commissions over and over again? For me, it looks unethical. I wouldn't have that problem if commissions were much lower."

I think you may be losing the plot. The commission is for making the arrangements and representing you should there be issues.

Also you're not paying the commission, you are paying for accomodation and services, the provider of which pays a commission to the agent who secured your business for the provider.

If you book direct with Mala Mala, you pay the same rate as you would with a TA. Mala Mala doesn't have to pay the commission so its margin increases.

Wilderness does not folow that pattern, becasue they probably don't want to have a large staff dedicated to trying to please very hard to please people.

Ask the average safari TA, how many communications are necessary to take care of a moderately difficult, experienced safari go'er and I think you might decide that they are worth the money they receive as a commission.

Let me add something that has not been mentioned.

Some supplier contracts stipulate that agents may not sell or promote their products at rates lower than rack.

Even if they want to, agents do not always have the power to offer sweet safari deals!

Eben

Are you suggesting it is best to attempt to deal directly with the camps and lodges(not Wilderness)?

I was just defending the agent a bit.

Most lodges and camps sell direct anyway and some clients do book direct. Same as booking cruises with either an agent or the ship company. Yet, many agencies thrive selling cruises because they offer some kind of added value to the consumer even though costs are about the same.

However some very popular lodges and camps are competing hard against the very agents and outfitters who support them (not Wilderness it seems)! They don't want agents to outsell them on price. And they make sure the clients book direct on future trips by openly displaying their direct sales materials when clients arrive at the lodge/camp!

Being a safari agent is not an easy job. BTW, I am not an agent!