>>> I also learned that even if not managed well it can contribute to conservation, simply because other options are not available or are insufficient. When travelling through a national park (Kafue) which had been hit hardly by poaching, and then learning from local people that the best game viewing areas are outside the park in adjoining hunting concessions, I simply don't care if these hunting concessions are well or bad managed, I just look at the results >>>

OK, so let me get this straight.

Poaching is indeed a problem for wild animals. But from the point of view of the animal, the hunter - of course - is too. So now you're basically saying that hunting is the lesser of two evils is it not? You're actually using one evil to combat another.

You continue by saying that the money hunters pay is what is needed to protect the animals from poaching. As apparently, the hunters are the rich guys who have no problem forking over huge amounts of $$$$ for a lion skin.

OK...

I'm going to give you something to think about here. Stay with me now...

Imagine this; you're the hunter. You payed a huge load of money for a lion. And finally the moment has come. There is the lion, in front of you. And the guide that's with you says; "this one's yours, you can shoot it". So you aim. But before pulling the trigger you ask once more, just to make sure:"that's my lion, right?". And the guide says: "yes, it is sir".

OK... you aim. The lion is unaware of your presence. If you shoot now, there's no way you can miss... finger on the trigger...

...

...suddenly you aim for the sky and pull the trigger. The lion runs away.

And then you say to the guide; "OK, it's STILL my animal now then. I paid for it. I want it to keep on living. It may not be shot by anyone else. Understood?"

I dunno about you, but I would definitely be more proud of THAT then of putting a bullet between that lions eyes. It sure as hell would make me feel really good. I mean REALLY good! I think I'd be on a high from that moment 'till I die.

There is no pride in killing pride.

The point I'm trying to make is; these hypocrit, selfish hunters with big wallets use poaching as an excuse to keep their despickable hobby going. While they could just as well save the animal from both ordeals: hunting AND poaching.

Yeah yeah I know... unfortunately the above scenqrio will not happen in the real world, right? Well...

I am dissapointed in the human race a LOT of times. But I'm not giving up. I'm not like that. People can change. Hey... bull fights aren't that popular anymore. So you see: our standards do change.

"You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one".

Anyway, we're still far away from Ghandi's ideal society. But hopefully we get there in the end. I think hunting is one of those last "big zits" that urgently need to pop.

pixelpower, we are also part of nature and evolution, and as we know, evolution is very cruel - 'survival of the fittest'. Looking at this world I doubt that the human race will ever reach Ghandi's ideals. In some way this would be against nature - we can't escape from our genes.

Nyama

We will never reach Gandhi's ideal.
We will never put the cork back in the development bottle.
We will drive all life forms to extinction, except the ones that can adapt fast enough to us, and we will achieve this goal rather quicker than any of us may have thought possible.
But at least bird watching will be much easier when I only have to remember House Finch, American Crow and Brewers Blackbird. Oh! wait a minute, House Finches are getting knocked out by an eye disease in increasing numbers, which is probably caused by us, so I guess I will only have to remember 2 birds.

>>> pixelpower, we are also part of nature and evolution, and as we know, evolution is very cruel - 'survival of the fittest'. Looking at this world I doubt that the human race will ever reach Ghandi's ideals. In some way this would be against nature - we can't escape from our genes.


So we speed up the process a bit by shooting all that moves and is not human?

Got any plan B?

I'm sure some of you have seen this already but this is an example of hunting gone awry and another animal dead for no good reason.

<b>South Africa: Farmer Shoots Leopard Dead in Conservation Area</b>

http://allafrica.com/stories/200707110593.html


<i>&quot;So another leopard is dead, this one without it being a proven 'problem' animal. It was hunted by dogs without a permit, and on conservation land,&quot; Smuts said. &quot;The Landmark Foundation continues to do all in its power to convince landowners to target only 'problem' animals under the guidance of conservation authorities and to avoid targeting entire species.&quot;</i>

IMHO, trophy hunting being poorly managed is an understatement.

How I wish this would be discussed on Safaritalk ... sigh.

Pixelpower, Chris Mercer at www.cannedlion.co.za has launched an Ethical Tourism initiative aimed at informing potential visitors to South Africa about those resorts which can be trusted to have a proper ethical concern for animal welfare in all their activities: it can be found here:

<b>http://www.cannedlion.co.za/ethical-tourism/Index.html</b>

Also for those who didn't see the CNN Inside Africa report featuring both Chris Mercer and the South African Minister for Environment, Marthinus Van Schalkwyk, the canned hunting segment has been uploaded as a You Tube video and can be viewed here:

<b>http://youtube.com/watch?v=_gwOe-QrXMM</b>

However FYI some of the report shows disturbing images.

Good weekend all,

Matt

To follow on from Divewop's example, put yourself in the shoes of Rebecca Klein from Cheetah Conservation Botswana.

&quot;The hardest situation is hearing about cheetah being killed on farmlands and for illegal trade. Talking to a farmer who tells you they killed 7 cheetahs on their farm last week and trying to be constructive and unconfrontational takes a lot of diplomacy!&quot;

To read her full Safaritalk interview click here:

<b>http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=531</b>

A quote:

&quot;Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow-creatures is amusing in itself.&quot;

James Anthony Froude English historian. (1818-1894)

&quot;So we speed up the process a bit by shooting all that moves and is not human?&quot;

We should shoot ourselves.

&quot;Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow-creatures is amusing in itself.&quot;

That's not quite true. Latest research shows that chimps do the same.

And it has been shown that male lions will occasionally kill the matriarch of a hyena
den because of the rivalry of the two species.

But I like your first idea to shoot ourselves. :))

Great news, someone I work with, though mercifully he is in a different part of the country, just got back from his first africa trip - with a Zebra's head! Wow what a guy!

9000 game farms in SA for canned hunting purposes? that's what is in the article from Matt's link...

May be Michael Moore should make a documentary to dig into the inside truth of canned hunting?- Instead of working on his political documentaries which raised awareness, yes.....but, really not much impact!

It says &quot;9000 game farms, most of them...&quot;

Maybe they should also publish such a list for Zambia? Could be a bad surprise for some Fodorites...

Nyama,

What is the actual reason for the SA Govt to delay the hunting restrictions on canned hunting?

I don't know, Hari.

&gt;&gt;&gt; Maybe they should also publish such a list for Zambia? Could be a bad surprise for some Fodorites...


Well at least we agree on something now. Looks like we're all asleep. Or rather; turn a blind eye.

Or a list of owners of 5 or 6-star camps who are also involved in hunting. Some other big surprises...

Let me first say I have no interest in hunting myself whatsoever. But I recently read it is important as a conservation tool. They can charge $50,000 permit for one person to hunt which has much less environmental impact then 50 photo tourists spending much less money. They can put the money earned toward conservation.

Nyama,

Publish those lists (it won't surprize me) ... and also the profits/earnings of those hunting companies and where the money goes to.

And tell us more how the hunting is conducted (baiting them out of the national parks/shooting animals without permits/killing lionesses in case we don't see male lions/starting bush fires to smoke the animals out). And don't tell us that it's a minor part that hunt the proper way.

The hunters I have seen on my trips didn't give much about conversation but so much more about telling strong stories, boozing, ... and the clients, well ... if they are their for conservation purposes and not for their barbaric sport - it's like saying that global warming is not an issue these days and if it is, it hasn't to do with our Western way of living but so much more with the economical awakening of India and China.