Go Back  Fodor's Travel Talk Forums > Destinations > Africa & the Middle East
Reload this Page >

An Ugandan Urge- Gorillas & Chimps in the midst

Search

An Ugandan Urge- Gorillas & Chimps in the midst

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old May 30th, 2017, 09:55 AM
  #21  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OMG Inquest, this report is brilliant, evocative, wonderful!!!! i admire you for writing from the road, so to speak. Yes, Bwindi Hospital is amazing!! A sa nurse, i was fascinated and impressed by all they have done there. That was 2012---it has become even more remarkable, and has its own RN school affiliate now. Do they still have the big computer "room" tent?
LOL the big behinds.
And WOW, what a gorilla experience!!!! Yours was one of the more challenging treks i've read about! Kudos to you for surviving it intact!!!!
Hope you had a nice relaxing drink back in Buhoma village!!!!
How are you enjoying the people you're meeting?
CaliNurse is offline  
Old May 30th, 2017, 09:58 AM
  #22  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The guest house looks amazing!! It's on my "list" for next trip.
There is simply no describing the lush scenery and hills and forests, is there? Soooo beautiful!! I so hope I make it back there some day, and am elated you are loving it too.
CaliNurse is offline  
Old May 30th, 2017, 12:09 PM
  #23  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow. What a great experience. Glad you had such a good trip
Thanks for reporting back
live42day is offline  
Old May 30th, 2017, 11:57 PM
  #24  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Though there are distance restrictions of 7mtrs from the apes, that the trekkers have to adhere to,its clearly violated.Its us to blame. In the eagerness to get better photos/view one simply oversteps.On many counts I realised the big Sliverback was clearly irritated and showed his displeasure by an occasional chest thump, grunts and hoots which are meant to say 'back off '.
These are signs clearly read by the guards,who in turn must warn the visitors,which they don't do,for fear of displeasing them.This I feel is a dangerous trend.Hope someone won't get hurt in the bargain.As in my case,it was a close shave.

Cali,I'm reporting from back home.I was there in the 2nd&3rd week of May.The downtown Bwindi Community Hospital is a bustling place.There are resident doctors,nurses,young adults in their 20s, all volunteering there.The hospital its self is well equipped and a big establishment.One level above the hospital is a community house , the Monkey House,with a kitchen,a dining,a couple of rooms and a courtyard. Around the premises is lodging ( B&B),the Blackie Shackie.I wouldn't recommend staying there unless one plans to volunteer to help around the hospital.Its too busy & noisy a place.
I would recommend the Lower Gorilla House, barely meters from the Np entrance,has a fantastic view of the Bwindi forest.Gorilla do sometime are seen from the deck,though I didn't seem to have the luck.The food, the service and the hospitality were very good. I was the only occupant and that was the case in all the places I stayed in Uganda !! Seriously off season.
I'm sure you'll make it back soon,that day don't seem far.
Live42day, I literally relived your photo-narrative.As brilliant as it was, it was Deja vu !!
More to follow... To Ishasha...
inquest is offline  
Old May 31st, 2017, 04:46 AM
  #25  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well,on second thoughts..Ishasha can wait.

I'll continue to bore you with more from Buhoma. The trek itself lasted about 4hrs, till we were picked up where we were dropped off. Back to Np headquarters, there was a small initiation ceremony, each one were given a certificate for successfully tracking the Gorillas,which included a sales promo of a printed copy of the pictorial history and details of the Habinyanja Clan. All for $10.

Cali your precise prophetic prognostication.....went back to my cottage, a hot shower, decided to go straight to the Bwindi Bar, down the road.Sat on the porch and had a chilled Nile Lager. The menu card was very interesting. They served combo ' Rolex ' here.Woah !!!
This is how it went ;

The Rolex : The Ultimate in 'Ugandan Fastfood' ask your server for more details.All 8000 USh each

Traditional : with ham ,onion,garlic & tomato
Italian ;Mozzarella , tomato and fresh Basil.
Vegetarian: Green pepper ,onion ,tomato and grated cheese
Gourmet : Goats cheese and red onion chutney

Exotic indeed !!! Chose the Traditional.It was splendid. Awesome.

The bar & bistro also offered,Cappuccino,Latte, Americano,Fresh fruit juice and homemade cakes and matooke crisps.

The sign boards in Uganda (like in India) are extremely hilarious.It has a somewhat angelic innocence, simplicity and candidness to it.
A 'Say it as it is'.
I've a great lot of pictures of it,here is a few I could recall from Buhoma..

The Great African Pork Shop - Grilled & Flied
( absolute truth,it has flies on it)

Engineer Alex & Sons Saloon and Electric Company LTD
( An engineering degree with specialised hair stying skills)

The Great Pork Joint- Bwindi For the Best Meal Ever Contactxxxx

The next day was spent entirely birding on the edge of the forest.It would often rain.Relaxing on my deck with my telephoto zoom ever ready.Plenty of good photo ops

The third day packed and was off towards Ishasha...
inquest is offline  
Old May 31st, 2017, 12:36 PM
  #26  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oh Inquest, so many wonderful stories from you, which bring great memories.

You phrased it exactly right:
"The sign boards in Uganda (like in India) are extremely hilarious.It has a somewhat angelic innocence, simplicity and candidness to it."

There's something about Uganda--in addition to the signs--which reminds me of India. The gritty down-to-earthiness mixed with the warmth and welcome and openness of its people , and something else which i can't quite describe. Funny, because neighboring Kenya and Rwanda do not remind me in the least of India!
CaliNurse is offline  
Old May 31st, 2017, 11:28 PM
  #27  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Absolutely.Both the cultures are uniquely/eerily similar. One other parallel that I stumbled upon is a Millet bread/dough dish called Karo.Its had with cowpea curry, chicken,goat or fish curry.It a staple food along with matooke in predominantly southern and western Uganda.Popular dish with the agrarian societies of the Ankole. After its cooked a lump of dough is rolled into a small ball,dipped in sauce/gravy and swallowed whole..take a look what wiki has to say

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Mujje_...ribe:_the_karo

Now, the very same dish is a staple diet in agrarian societies of Karnataka,parts of Andhra and Tamilnadu. There too millet dough aka Ragi ball and chicken/muttom/pea/greens curry are made and had in the same fashion...take a look here

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ragi_mudde

Another unique characteristics is the use of ghee ( clarified butter) with both, the Karo/Ragi ball.Primarily for taste, secondly a lubricant as its easy to work on.

Juxtapose the two cultures separated by an ocean and thousands of miles, they share the same receipe? Coincidence !!

Probably these are unpolluted & untouched civilizations. Handing down traditions and culture for generations.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 1st, 2017, 12:39 AM
  #28  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Back to the sign boards.All of them border on a style distinctive of a certain 20th Century's famous artist's 'African' period.
Figuratively speaking borderline grotesque,disproportionate and disfigured.Visually there could be an eye or an ear missing,a twisted nose, its dosen't matter at all.As long as the message is conveyed & the sense of humour is intact.Dont forget to keep an eye on them on the next visit. Its every where.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 1st, 2017, 03:11 PM
  #29  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some of the cultural (food?) similarity could be due to the large number of Ugandan citizens of Indian descent. They lived for generations in Uganda, until that monster idi Amin ordered them to leave.
I'm checking Fodors Africa Forum every day for your updates. Thank you for these interesting and thought-filled posts. Wonderful!!!!! Weebale nyo nyo, Inquest!

(ps.IF you need some down time r and r, I recently posted my last 'album" of Gujarat photos on Fodors, including lots of "people pix." Not self-advertising just think you will enjoy.)
CaliNurse is offline  
Old Jun 2nd, 2017, 03:37 AM
  #30  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cali its as though you could read my mind ! That's what I've been doing..Googling to going to Gujarat, thoroughly enjoying you photos along with the report urging me to get back on the road. LOL the switch board snap,looks like you had the power supply to the whole town on it Not to mention the portraits,absolutely wonderful.

Reading it is certainly R&R.This time it'll be the north eastern states of Assam, Arunachal( keen on birding there) & Meghalay. With the PM of India inaugurating the 9km+ bridge across Lohit a tributary of the Bramhaputra, getting to Arunachal Pradesh will quicker. This on the radar.
Incredible India.The vibrancy you'll get no where on earth.In India, you are like on a permanent psychedelic trip.

As you rightly mentioned as large number Indian immigrants primarily from Gujarat have been in Uganda(and East Africa) for generations.Their dietary habits have had a great influence on local cuisine. The Phulkas,Parathas,Nans,Rotis or simply Chapatis (which I'm sure you must have tried in India,as also used in the Rolex) are of Indian origin.So is the tandoor and the Biriyani. These are here to stay.Worldwide.But what was intriguing was the curious case of Karo/Ragi comparison,is strictly restricted to a small pocket in India.

Weebale Nyo Nyo to you too Cali for encouraging me.here ,its not quite like the Asia forum.Can't find much interaction here for TRs as either the traffic is less and/or the report is utterly boring with irrelevant trivia.I ended up aborting the the Kgalagadi TF TR a year ago.But must admit and admire the great info & help I've got here,as in this case and present topic.

I also do seriously suspect the reason is that this thread is not marked as a "Trip Report"..

What ever the reason I'll complete it,for it could be of some help for future visitors to Uganda.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 2nd, 2017, 10:51 PM
  #31  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thank you for you comments. Exactly right on your last sentence, above, Inquest! I think of trip reports, and replies to standard questions, as a reference for future visitors as well as present readers. As for Fodors Trip Reports, the who why and when of people's replies is quite an enigma. You can get a hundred replies to someone who writes only one sentence report entries where they ate and shopped, but almost none to more detailed descriptions covering larger areas of interest. Oh well. One person's trash is another's treasure, as the saying goes. I do hope you'll continue and complete this report, and some day, someone will "google" a question about Uanda, and find an answer here!! There were many times I almost stopped the Gujarat report, but the interest of the few people who stayed along to the end kept me motivated.

Your "psychedelic trip" India future plans sound fantastic. I hope to make it to some villages in Odisha next time.

Back to the subject at hand: Wonderful Uganda!!! To anyone with a true interest in Uganda, or Africa in general, this is not the least bit boring or overly detailed.
Where did you go after leaving Buhoma??? More please!!!
CaliNurse is offline  
Old Jun 5th, 2017, 12:30 AM
  #32  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cali, I've been to the culturally rich Odisha ( Orissa as it was formerly known ) and it was a magical experience.That was close to 20 yrs ago.Still can recall a lot. Will post on your Gujarat thread.

For now, let me focus on finishing the rest of the journey through Utopic Uganda.

3 nights in Buhoma,on the 3rd day had a roughly 100km drive north to Ishasha NP.Stopped in a town called Kihihi,replenished our stocks and moved on.To our left was Lake Edward beyond which lies the Parc National des Virunga in Democratic Republic of Congo.Known for the Mountain Gorilla population.Unrest and insurgency in DRC makes it a dangerous place to visit.My initial plans were the Virungas, but was advised against it.

As we entered the Ishasha Np.The landscape dramatically changed from the lush Rain Forests and the mountains,in the morning to the Savannah plains by noon.Similar to the Serengeti minus the Acacia trees.Stayed at '@ the River Ishasha , just outside the NP.Its on the river Ntungwe.Around ten log cabins built along the river I would give the resort a *** rating. En-suite with comfortable beds, clean linen, a porch over looking the river.As it was off season, I was the only guest in the whole resort.Had leisurely lunch, a siesta and by 3 pm went hunting for the tree climbing lions.

http://attheriverishasha.com/

The $20 that was paid at the park office for the entry permit is valid for 24 hrs with any number of entries and exits.We drove the length and breadth of the park.Plenty of elephants, Ugandan Kobs, Buffalo and a lone male leopard crossed our path and disappeared into the tall grass.No sign of the lions.By sundown was back in the camp.

Dinner was served by the 'Beach', a sandy shore by the river,Lit by lanterns,a fire raging, a glass of Stellenbosch Pinotage, roast chicken and creamy Irish mashed potatoes.

Setting off before day break,after some tea and cookies,the sun rose over the Ishasha.The same herd of Buffalo we had see the previous evening had not moved far.Birds aplenty came alive.

Scanned every tree and bush.Absolutely no sign of the lions. By noon we were exhausted.Gave up and got back to the camp.Soon after lunch, driving north,left for Queen Elisabeth NP.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 5th, 2017, 10:22 AM
  #33  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, they say seeing tree-climbing lions of Ishasha is hit or miss, and I too missed them, despite the eagle-eyed driver's search. This was at the turn off road from QE toward Kihihi!. What a road!! "African massage"! This was 2012. How is that road now (between Buhoma--Kihii-Ishasha)? I suspect it is just as challenging and rutted! We detoured around washed-out bridges which were being reconstructed. Five yrs later, they should b completed...but this being where it is, who knows?
The setting of the place you stayed looks magical. So even without lions, it was worth the stop!
Looking forward to hearing about "Queen" and , assuming you took it, the boat on the Kazinga Channel with its truly spectacular sightings!
there's another thread going about the costs of login in Africa. i 've written that people shod check our report. You prove that a person can stay at wonderful places for a LOT less than the private tented camps in Kenya
CaliNurse is offline  
Old Jun 5th, 2017, 10:24 AM
  #34  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
typo--should check YOUR report! Really, there are such great accommodations in Uganda of various prices!
CaliNurse is offline  
Old Jun 6th, 2017, 12:52 AM
  #35  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cali,I guess Uganda has not changed since your visit.Your description of the Buhoma- Kihihi- Ishasha road as of an absolutely intense 'African Massage' is bang on!! It's badly rutted.All the aches and pains from the Gorilla trek to swampland birding completely vanished and manifested in another form.A nagging lower back ache and on 3 occasions my head hit the roof,which had to be treated with a dose of pain-killers and an extra shot of whisky just before bed-time.Not to mention the profuse apologies each time from Howard.

The conditions have worsened as heavy vehicular traffic on this only arterial road keeps damaging it. Minor repairs continue,but it seems inadequate.

I seriously suspect its been deliberately kept this way, considering the fact that the road traverses through environmentally sensitive zone, where speeding trucks could kill wild animals.The Max average speed on this road is around 25 kms/hr.

What surprises my about Ishasha was that despite its lush vegetation, plenty of green cover,the density of wildlife,as compared to other parks in Africa, is rather poor.The same with Queen.Probably because of the fact that DRC being very close and animals migrate back and forth across the border.

I did run through the thread where you've recommended reading my report.Thank you.I refrained from commenting there as I've realised its a very touchy subject.Different levels of comfort/luxury and the relative money spent is a completely individual choice.Different people have different expectations and different travel styles.Suggestions/ recommendation in the past have snow-balled into senseless arguments, which I consider an absolute waste of time.
Like in here I've post links to the places I've stayed with my experience in earlier TRs too.This is up to anyone and everyone interested to make their own assessment.There is also a good possibility that the very same good recommended place could fall into bad times.
Cali,yes,I'm glad,it has appealed to you,since you have considered trying them on your next trip.

My point of view :
To me, when out in the wild,I personally prefer staying as close to nature as possible.I do not need luxury as I'm not here for it.Prefer leaving luxury at home.The places selected has to have a minimum level of creature comforts which translates into clean comfortable beds, good and clean linen,Private/en-suite loo.A place with a good porch and a great view.Small intimate lodges/camps where you can interact with locals.They are a great source of info.Of course decent food ( preferably local cuisine ) Howard too was surprised when I told him I was staying in these places I'm referring to.He was unaware of them as he only suggested the well known ones.

ON this bad road towards Queen, misjudged time and distance and arrived at around 6 pm.....without accommodation and too late to travel into the park... a goof up..
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 7th, 2017, 12:57 AM
  #36  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Decided to find accommodation.The Bandas in Nature lodges were full up.Only availability were the Lazy Camping. I kept its as a last option. Irungu forest Safari lodge and Engiri were full up.We had another hour of daylight,so decided to cut across the channel,across the bridge,spotted a lone cottage,perched on the edge with a great view of the channel.Went through the village to investigate the property,especially the Cottage.

Entered a gate which had a sign on it which said Tembo Safari lodge.As we pulled up at the reception and foyer/dining, a lady stepped out.One enquiry,she pointed to a row of rooms which looked like dorms & which it was.At $25/night, there was only one left,the rest being occupied by a group of Canadian girls ,volunteering in Uganda.Decided this was not for me, as I turned to the lady ( who happened to be the owner) and pointed at the cottage,on the other end of the property.Asked her if I could take a look at it.
Initially she was a little reluctant,saying it wasn't ready for occupation yet,as little finishing touches were still pending.She unlocked the door to a large unfurnished room, en-suite and the door to the balcony opened out to a deck with the most magnificent view of the channel.'This is it'I said'I'm staying here'!! She was perplexed. "Are you sure? the floor is unpolished".That was least of the problem,its was already getting dark and wanted the room with a view.She said she needed an hour to get it ready. I said please take two !!

I picked up a Nile Lager at the bar and sat on my deck,while the room was being furnished!!Could see the fishermen getting back with their catch to the pier by the bridge at a distance.Pods of hippos in the water below me and kids playing in the water barely 50mts downstream,completely heedless and unmindful of the most dangerous animal in Africa. A herd of buffalo were right next to my cottage,relaxing after a days grazing,waiting for the kids to get out of water so that they could quench their thirst.That was the only path,next to my cottage,barely 20 mtrs away,leading down to the water that both man and animal used.It turned into a hippo and elephant highway by night.The sun set on the Queen Elisabeth NP

The lady opened the door,as I finished the second pint of Lager and invited me to take a look at the room. Woah !A room freshener sprayed,it, by now had a queen size bed with a mosquito net,a couch with a side table, a writing table, a table fan,a rug on either side of the bed.Curtains on the window.Its was complete in all sense.Thanked the lady.The day's special was fish curry and rice, which was served in the room. Thankfully,an eventful day had come to an end.With much need rest,I fell asleep.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 8th, 2017, 12:20 AM
  #37  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Suddenly,in the dead of the night I was rudely woken up by a deafening grunt from the hippo right next to my window.I was shaking.I could clearly see the hippo silhouetted,a 2 ton brute,in the moonlight,grazing.The grunts, was answered by another,bellowing back and forth, a distance away.The chorus continued.I sat up laughing,listening to the cacophony.
Peered at my watch, it was 2 am in the morning .Couldn't get sleep so went out on to the deck.the grazing hippo must gave seen me, he moved away.Shortly afterwards an family of warthogs took the 'highway' down to the river followed by the Kobs and about 20 mins later a lone bull elephant walked right past.This was fantastic.A virtual parade of the denizens of Queen !!

Cold wind was blowing across the waters of the channel.Got back to bed.Not sure how long I was asleep.A knock on the door,coffee had arrived.The sunrise across the channel was brilliant abuzz with activity in the waters below the day began. Howard arrived with the vehicle.Time for the game drive in QENP.
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 8th, 2017, 09:19 PM
  #38  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Your entire report Inquest continues to amaze and delight!! Plus, I'm learning so much! I'd never heard of Tembo. (Ended up two nights in a quite overrated place.)
WOW!! What a discovery!!!!!
Those NOT reading this don't know what they are missing!!
CaliNurse is offline  
Old Jun 9th, 2017, 12:11 AM
  #39  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes Cali,for me too.Uganda was indeed a journey of discovery and I thought I should load the TR with as much information as possible.

Every day brought in new challenges because it was unplanned right from the beginning (accommodation wise),as I had not pre-booked any,I seemed to have got away with it.I suppose it was 'off season'.I would certainly not recommend it.Its always better to be prepared.
But then, what the heck,what was the worst that could happen. Fortunately things went my way.My gamble of picking a place 'on arrival' paid off.

The Tembo website too has no information of the cottage(s) till date.They have still not updated it. The accommodation part only talks of $25 budget doubles,twins and singles rooms and camping and no mention of the cottages,probably because they are still not decided/prepared to give it out.
But I've already cut the ribbon !!The food was good,often fresh catch from the fishermen below,the dining area just ok, but the gazebo with the waterfront view more than compensated for any drawback.So much so, I decided to stay for 3 nights !!By the following morning all minor glitches in my cottage were ironed out.Food would be served on my deck on request.I was allowed to participate in the kitchen,and cook the dishes of my choice. Well. I made myself at home !!

http://www.tembosafarilodge.com/

Its location was what interested me. First of all its not exclusive.It sits on a high embankment with a panoramic view the channel.To the right of the property there is a busy pier a little distance away where bidding and buying of the days catch carries on.To the left is the unfenced Queen Elisabeth NP, where animals roam wild often taking the path,along with the many others which lead to the waters edge below.This made it an ideal location and this is what impressed me.

In other words,I had the best of both.I could sit and observe an African rural way of life on one-side, while the wildlife would make dramatic appearance on the other-side.Man and animal,here,live in close proximity and in absolute harmony.To an extent,on the first day, I presumed the grazing herd next my cottage were domesticated buffalo,till I was told otherwise.I was also told not to step out of the cottage after dark,except on to my deck.
A refreshingly new experience. QENP @ my doorstep!!
inquest is offline  
Old Jun 9th, 2017, 11:08 PM
  #40  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Will I recommend this place ? Not as yet. Still a lot desires to be done.I would probably give it another 6 mths. Let the dust settle.
While I was there,I did contribute to some planning when asked for.The promoters.The lady and her husband,apparently bought this piece of land and have been living there for a while with a family of 4 children.I was told that it was at the lady's behest and initiative they put up a few rooms and let it out as dorms.The open area served as a campsite,I did not see anyone camping during my stay.The lack of occupancy I feel, is a lack of any form of promotion.Even the sign-board on the road leading to the Mweya is pretty inconspicuous.AS I mentioned earlier the dining area is just ok. A small pantry which served as a kitchen need to be tucked away some place else.Probably the gazebo overlooking the waters is the only place which was desirable.I largely restricted myself to my cottage and I was content in doing so.They have plans.If I suppose they implement it,it will no doubt be a sellout.When?Not sure. On the final day when I was presented the invoice for the 3 night stay I was in for a surprise. She charged me $25/day B&B,$75 in all !!!! What a steal !! I did ask her if she had made a mistake,with a nod she said that is how much she wanted to charge.
inquest is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -