Catalonia says it's going to have an independence referendum
Sep 27th, 2014, 10:23 AM
#1
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Catalonia says it's going to have an independence referendum
...whether Madrid likes it or not.
Madrid, of course, insists Spain's constitution outlaws democracy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29390774
As you'd expect.
Madrid, of course, insists Spain's constitution outlaws democracy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29390774
As you'd expect.
Sep 27th, 2014, 11:23 AM
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The modern separatist movement predates the Spanish Civil while the history of Catalunya, like much of Europe, is long and complicated. The language Catalan is not founded in Spanish but in Provençal and the sensibility of being Catalan is quite different than other regions.
As the article noted the separatist became stronger after the collapse of the Spanish economy as Catalunya supports many other poorer areas.
To illustrate the depths of the antagonism, a Catalan loves to demonstrate that, not only do they speak Catalan, but their version of Castilian is equal if not better than that spoken in Madrid.
As the article noted the separatist became stronger after the collapse of the Spanish economy as Catalunya supports many other poorer areas.
To illustrate the depths of the antagonism, a Catalan loves to demonstrate that, not only do they speak Catalan, but their version of Castilian is equal if not better than that spoken in Madrid.
Sep 27th, 2014, 12:24 PM
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This isn't Scotland.
The cultural gap is huge, the historical gap is considerable, Catalunya's GDP is a around 20% higher than the rest of Spain, around 70% higher than Extremadura.
This is much deeper than Scotland.
And will give Brussels sleepless nights.
The cultural gap is huge, the historical gap is considerable, Catalunya's GDP is a around 20% higher than the rest of Spain, around 70% higher than Extremadura.
This is much deeper than Scotland.
And will give Brussels sleepless nights.
Sep 27th, 2014, 12:43 PM
#5
Perhaps we should wait to see if that referendum fails or not before having sleepless nights.
But, in the meanwhile perhaps somebody from Madrid can hop on the fast train over and promise those people all sorts of things even though even that doesn't always work.
But, in the meanwhile perhaps somebody from Madrid can hop on the fast train over and promise those people all sorts of things even though even that doesn't always work.
Sep 27th, 2014, 01:03 PM
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I don't think Madrid is in a position to make promises, Barcelona contributes far more to Madrid than it receives back in central government spending. As a regional government it has a huge deficit and debt, many in Catalunya believe they are simply working hard to prop up the rest of Spain.
Sep 27th, 2014, 01:18 PM
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Will be interesting to follow..
Not sure if the Catalans want back in the EU. Or if Spain will veto that. Or any of the other EU28.
In any case, it will take years until Catallunya will be back to the status it has now as part of Spain.
Actually, its status vis-a-vis the Union will be less than that of Switzerland or Norway. No freedom of movement of goods, services, and people. Credits earned at a Catalan university will not be honored in France or Germany, for example. Goods or services will not be able to circulate as freely in the largest economy as they do now. And so on...
Not sure if the Catalans want back in the EU. Or if Spain will veto that. Or any of the other EU28.
In any case, it will take years until Catallunya will be back to the status it has now as part of Spain.
Actually, its status vis-a-vis the Union will be less than that of Switzerland or Norway. No freedom of movement of goods, services, and people. Credits earned at a Catalan university will not be honored in France or Germany, for example. Goods or services will not be able to circulate as freely in the largest economy as they do now. And so on...
Sep 27th, 2014, 03:30 PM
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There is nothing Madrid can promise to change the sentiment because of the current economic situation. A separation would of course be messy with many unintended consequences. As far as the EU is concerned, economically and psychologically Spain would be weakened and would be curious how the other members would react as well.
The separatist movement is deep in the Catalan soul. I remember in our first visit to Barcelona in 1972 we made friends with some students who whispered about Catalan Independence because Franco was still alive. It is grown louder and in numbers since those days.
If you want an excellent book on Barcelona until the early 1990's try Robert Hughes' Barcelona. http://www.amazon.com/Barcelona-Robe...=robert+Hughes
The separatist movement is deep in the Catalan soul. I remember in our first visit to Barcelona in 1972 we made friends with some students who whispered about Catalan Independence because Franco was still alive. It is grown louder and in numbers since those days.
If you want an excellent book on Barcelona until the early 1990's try Robert Hughes' Barcelona. http://www.amazon.com/Barcelona-Robe...=robert+Hughes
Sep 28th, 2014, 12:25 PM
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Sep 28th, 2014, 01:50 PM
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Re: London School Article
While it true that the Catalan government is corrupt and inept, under the Madrid government there was absolute economic collapse, where 53% of the youth, nationwide, is still unemployed. And as far as the Catalan debt, the Spanish debt is 93% of GDP which of course effects all regions. Additionally Catalunya pays far more in national taxes then it receives back.
The 1978 vote regarding the Constitution was an condemnation of the past as much as affirmation of the future.
While it true that the Catalan government is corrupt and inept, under the Madrid government there was absolute economic collapse, where 53% of the youth, nationwide, is still unemployed. And as far as the Catalan debt, the Spanish debt is 93% of GDP which of course effects all regions. Additionally Catalunya pays far more in national taxes then it receives back.
The 1978 vote regarding the Constitution was an condemnation of the past as much as affirmation of the future.
Sep 28th, 2014, 02:26 PM
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If it becomes a vote to change the constitution and Catalunya wants an amiable separation, it probably won't happen.
When Spain won the World Cup in 2010, many said the real miracle was that they played like a team.
When Spain won the World Cup in 2010, many said the real miracle was that they played like a team.
Nov 21st, 2014, 12:55 PM
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Only people who supported independence were likely to vote, because the others didn't recognize the legitimacy of the election. Of course, an official referendum might also have won, but not by such a wide margin.
Nov 21st, 2014, 01:01 PM
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But it does seem like a serious scenario to actually happen as it will in Scotland too no doubt as support amongst the younger folk I think was fairly enthusiastic and strong - the old farts with the guaranteed pensions, dole, etc voted against.
Nov 21st, 2014, 01:10 PM
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" as it will in Scotland too no doubt as support amongst the younger folk I think was fairly enthusiastic and strong - the old farts with the guaranteed pensions, dole, etc voted against."
1. The old farts vote. And campaign, and deliver leaflets, and do all the boring stuff that democracy's built on.
The children sit at home, playing on the web, deluding themselves that signing internet petitions isn't simply an act of onanism.
2. The old farts are the growing market (and electorate). The adolescents are yesterday's future.
It's really up to the kids. They can play with their toys, and whine when they discover where that's not getting them. Or they can grow up and start understanding there's no tolerable alternative to real democracy.
Whichever: we'll be dead. They'll have to sort out their mess without us
1. The old farts vote. And campaign, and deliver leaflets, and do all the boring stuff that democracy's built on.
The children sit at home, playing on the web, deluding themselves that signing internet petitions isn't simply an act of onanism.
2. The old farts are the growing market (and electorate). The adolescents are yesterday's future.
It's really up to the kids. They can play with their toys, and whine when they discover where that's not getting them. Or they can grow up and start understanding there's no tolerable alternative to real democracy.
Whichever: we'll be dead. They'll have to sort out their mess without us
Nov 21st, 2014, 01:39 PM
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In any case I decry fragmentation in the UK or Spain or anywhere - especially in Europe where the movement to a true EU has stagnated and even regressed.
We don't need more countries looking out for their own interests - Belgium could break up - the Ukraine already has - even Berwick-on-Tweed claims to be sovereign I've heard!
Nationalism is the bane of a true EU ever coming about.
We don't need more countries looking out for their own interests - Belgium could break up - the Ukraine already has - even Berwick-on-Tweed claims to be sovereign I've heard!
Nationalism is the bane of a true EU ever coming about.
