Great list!

"Just a decent reference point if you're like us: 40-something, native NYC, foodie couple"

How about for a 60 something, non-native tourist, foodie single?

This is a great list -- the 8 or 10 places on it I know are all favorites. I was happy to see Aquagrill on your list twice. It's funny, but in my last full month of New York dining (about 70 meals!) when someone asked what was my "favorite" I almost immediately came up with Aquagrill. The place has never failed to be perfection in every way, yet never the least bit pretentious, and although a bit pricey -- a great bargain in my book for the quality.

thanks for the list!
do you have a pre theatre suggestion in the theatre district?

Thanks for the list.

Good idea, thanks for the recommendations. Girls trip planned for February next year and this is exactly the kind of information we need. It's nice NeoPatrick seconded Aquagrill, maybe that will be our splurge restaurant.

Nice selection. Thanks.

@4bams
Honestly, I've never had a good meal in the theatre district. Most of the restaurants up there are glorified catering halls, in my opinion, and there's little incentive for them to serve great food to tourists they may never see again.
I fully understand, however, that there MUST be some good food up there somewhere. I just tend to stay downtown.

@NeoPatrick
I share your enthusiasm for Aquagrill, but I must admit the shucker/raw-bar-guy at Giorgione has never once served me a clam or oyster with a piece of shell in it, or failed to separate the meat from the shell perfectly so it all slides away.
The raw bar service at Aquagrill can be a bit rushed and it can show.


That said, I highly recommend Ag's Roero Arneis by the glass with the east coast oysters.

Great list!

You know, now that you mention it, I don't know that I've ever done raw bar at Aquagrill.

I know that it is customary for locals to suggest there's nowhere worth eating near the theatre district, and while it indeed does have more than its share of tourist "traps", don't forget there are thousands and thousands of "well heeled locals" living in those huge apartment buildings in that general area. Many really good restaurants rely on those people not just tourists. And while it makes sense for people who live (or work) downtown to sort of stay in that area to eat, it makes just as much sense for people "temporarily living" in the theatre district and going to a show there to stay in that area for dinner. On the rare night I'm not doing theatre, I'll happily trot off downtown for dinner, but it still doesn't make sense for me to do that when I have to worry about getting back to the jammed theatre district to make a curtain.

A few good ones in the theatre district in all price ranges (like the original list above): Esca, Etc.Etc, db Bistro Modern, Hell's Kitchen, West Bank Cafe, Bar Americain, Marseille, Osteria del Circo, LeBernadin, ViceVersa, Remi, Nizza, Bond 45 and even while you can't get much more touristy than Sea Grill overlooking Rockefeller Center, I'll maintain that the food, attention to detail, and service make it a very good choice in that price range. I'd say Balthazar is every bit as "touristy" as any of those places mentioned above. But that doesn't stop it from being good in my book.

Fair enough, Neo. Maybe my problem is that I'm usually paired with people DYING to go to Carmine's. So, I've eaten there more than any place else, except maybe Becco.
The food's always "good enough" in those places.
Barbetta's pretty good, now that I think of it.

I'll try a couple of your suggestions.

Neo

There are many reasons why NY'ers do not eat in the Theater District.

About 65% of Broadway show goers are visitors. Thus the vast majority of the people who eat there are not from NY Metro area. Thus there is no impetus for a NY'er to eat there.

The residential areas usually offer better food values than the Theater District.

The Theater District has such a bad reputation for poor restaurants that few want to be the guinea pigs and find out those that are worthwhile.

BTW, Neo, Balthazar has a fabulous bakery with a curiously crammed space for the customers and an impossible view of the available breads but there are many superior French bistros that are not well known.

I agree with everything you just said Audchamp. If I lived in the city -- anywhere outside the theatre district --there is little reason I'd ever go there to eat -- I agree. Absolutely.

The only concept I sometimes hear here though is the idea that a person who is staying in the theatre district and seeing a show there that night and returning to his hotel afterwards can't get a "decent" meal without taking transportation to another part of town and then worrying about getting back into the traffic and people clogged theatre district at showtime. Likewise, it only makes sense that if someone were staying at -- let's say the Soho Grand and seeing an off-Broadway show at The Flea he should eat somewhere around there. It would be silly to travel to the upper West Side and back for example to go to just a decent restaurant unless there were some compelling reason to go to a specific restaurant. There are many good restaurants all over NYC and that includes the Theatre District (but it may take a little more asking to prevent going to a bad one).

There are many decent, good, and even some wonderful restaurants in the theatre district that enable a person staying and being entertained there to eat without having to do the double transportation issue at peak travel times. When a person asks for such a recommendation, it's nice when they can get one and there are many to be given, rather than the offhanded "there's nothing good there -- you need to go elsewhere".

In other words as you said, "The Theater District has such a bad reputation for poor restaurants that few want to be the guinea pigs and find out those that are worthwhile." So it's nice when people give them good recommendations in the theatre district instead of making them become those guinea pigs and further giving business to the bad places. It's nice when people help posters find the "worthwhile" places -- they ARE there.

Well said, Neo.

This thread is fabulous! It's going to be a classic that will be topped for years to come. Thank you, ciaony!

Over the yrears we have eaten a number of the better known Theater Disrtict restaurants including Ollie's, Carmine's, Joe Allen's, Landmark Tavern, Becco, Trecolori, Un Deux Trois, Virgil's, Pomaire, Victor's, Le Bernandin, Hallo Berlin, Maria Pia, Esca, and many places that no longer exist.

I think I am one of the few people who find Le Bernardin over rated and my favorite of all of them is Pomaire and Virgil's if we are with kids. Otherwise I would not recommend them. It is not an off-hand comment but one based on decades of bad meals.

Absolutely super list but I'm curious, did Katz's cross the street to the East Village or is there a branch I don't know about.

Toloache in the theater district is very good Mexican.

Yes, SueNYC. Katz's moved across the street to a bigger space. They now feature a VIP room where Lindsay Lohan is a regular and Mark Ronson spins on Thursday nights.

Ha ha ha ha ha

correction: Katz's is officially on the Lower East Side.

I also screwed up "Chola (UWS)". It's on 58th between 2nd and 3rd (UES).

Hey, if they hired Samantha Ronson they may need the VIP room and bigger space

Neo, if you consider some of the places you mentioned in the West 50s, like Le Bernardin and Osteria del Circo, as being "in the theater district," then, yes, there are desirable places there. I'd add to your list (all with excellent pre-theater prix-fixe menus) Estiatorio Milos, the "21" Club, Beacon, Petrossian and Seasonal, among others.

These are worlds better than the run-of-the-mill, mediocre theater district places such as those on "Restaurant Row" that resort to circus-style street barkers to rein in the tourists.

And Warren (Adu), we've talked about this occasionally face-to-face, but you frequently disparage Le Bernardin. What is it about this three-Michelin-star, four-New York Times-star place that turns you off so? Is it the highest-caliber service, the extraordinary preparations by Eric Ripert, or the beautiful wood-paneled, high-ceilinged dining room? Le Bernardin is often thought of as New York City's number one restaurant in all categories. Did you have a bad experience there?

I wonder too. Although it's now been about two years since I've eaten at LeBernardin (but I've eaten there about four or five times) I still find it one of the top restaurants in the WORLD, not just NYC -- everything about it is flawless in my book, and again I find it very NON-pretentious (although they have every reason to BE pretentious).

And yes, I do consider those places in the theatre district. Too many people think of the theatre district as simply the one or two block actual Times Square, but Le Bernardin, for example is only about 2 blocks from Wicked, Mama Mia, and Jersey Boys. And I extend the theatre district (easy walking from most Broadway theatres) to include all of Ninth Avenue from 42nd to the low 50s and its myriad inexpensive ethnic restaurants as well.

But I will agree with most of that list of theatre restaurants, Auduchamp -- mostly you seem to have found the not so great ones.

I have eaten twice at Le Bernardin, once on someone else's expense account and once as a celebratory meal. All the people with whom I have dined had the same impression. It was of course, fine but not stratopheric. And I was actually in a suit both times not my normal custom of jeans and some clean shirt.

There was nothing memorable and there was nothing to propel me back. (Do not get me started on Michelin in NYC. It is so francocentric as to be useless. Although I heard they actually threw Americans a bone this year.)

When I think of the great meals I have eaten, I actually recall what I ate and wonderful it was. That did not happen at Le Bernardin. And actually the second time, the service was not that attentive. And I am one who hates to be doted upon.

And I must be honest, we only eat in that expensive a restaurant once a year. And now that we do not toil at regualr jobs, we take advantage of the prix fixe lunches.

And I have a found that the establishmens of most celebrity chefs are lacking, especially Batali and David Chang. We ate at Del Posto about two years ago and now we are told that they knew they were underperforming. Well they did not send a refund. I have eaten at Esca, Cafe Mono (many times) and Lupa and just didn't get it. Maybe because the named chefs are never there.

And I wonder how often Eric Ripert is there.
___________________

Neo, Bert

Many, not all, of the restaurants you recommend in Theater District are pricey. And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper. And I admit it is a personal prejudice.

"And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper."
As NeoPatrick pointed out, many would rather be within a few blocks of their Broadway show than eat somewhere "elsewhere" and then worry about making the curtain call.

"And I admit it is a personal prejudice"
Each of us have our preferences. For many of us - and many tourists to NYC - we'd rather find a good option close by. Just a personal preference.

Thanks for the list! In the theater district, we've done Esca for a late night dinner after a play (won't work for a musical, they run too long) and had a lovely meal. Otherwise, early dinner before a show is usually a pizza at John's on 44th. (It takes most of a carafe of wine to get hubby to tolerate a musical.)

"And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper. And I admit it is a personal prejudice."

First, I don't think all those restaurants are that pricey -- I mainly came up with a list that seemed similar in range to the list in the original post. But in any case -- you are entitled to have whatever preference you want of course, but many others would prefer to have an "incrementally BETTER" meal and at the same time one that is infinitely "less hassle" to get to and from. Having the hassle of traveling in and out of the theatre district during the rush and paying to do so (even four subway tickets would not be that cheap) in order to get a meal that is "not as good" as one you could get a block or two from the theatre and hotel just plain doesn't make sense to me!
And don't forget, there are far more restaurants in the theatre district doing special pretheatre specials than there are outside that district. So if price is the big concern, there are some great ways to get around that -- in addition to simply choosing one of the many really good inexpensive restaurants (if your goal was to travel elsewhere to really good inexpensive restaurant).

I'm somewhat dumbfounded about the LeBernardin comments, although I do understand people being put off by very expensive and very formal places. But perhaps part of the reason I love it so is that it is a SPECIAL place and a very small part of its being special includes knowing that you are not surrounded by a bunch of people in jeans and casual dress. It's sometimes nice to go where EVERYONE looks like they came to a special place. If that sounds snooty on my part, so be it. And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet. The entire setting and surroundings are a part of a fine dining experience, and that includes the other people.

I agree with you, Neo. I thoroughly enjoy being in a place where people "dress" for dinner. But the truth is I get my fill of that dining at a place called Tiro A Segno a few times per month. It just makes for a more enjoyable meal by bringing out a higher level of professionalism in the staff and civility in the other patrons.

I've never been there, but I'm sitting on a $250 gift certificate for Le Bernadin I got for Christmas. Looking forward to going, and I fully understand that it won't cover my check, but I will certainly report back.

Neo writes:

And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet
___________________________________

Out, damn'd stain! Out, I say.

My obligation is have clean clothes and be well showered and groomed. There is no way my clothing should be a concern to others. They are an extension of my personality and choices and not chosen to fulfill the capricious and contradictory criteria of people I have never met nor will meet again.

Often, there is a discussion about what to wear to theater and the lamentation of the clothing that theater goers wear these days. I asked a friend who is a player in a well-known symphony if she cared what the audience wore. She said that she was just glad that they came and could barely see past the first row.

When you go to an expensive restaurant are you offended at costume jewelry or a necktie that someone bought on the street for $5? As noted it is impossible to please everyone, thus I dress as I see fit so that I am comfortable for the occasion.

Great thread ciaony!

I'll throw in my two cents - I live uptown, am an avid theatergoer, and for the last few years work IN Times Square. My philosophy has always been to dine near the theater. The last thing I want is the pressure to get to the theater after a meal. Eating far from the theaters will guarantee that there are no cabs in sight or the subway you're on has a sick passenger and you're not going anywhere

Tonight for instance, we're seeing a play in the East Village and we will dine nearby. Usually, but not always, I also want a moderately priced meal before theater. Fine dining, which I love, is our evening activity, not a rush before a performance. As a result, most of the places I frequent are fair - good, not great. I would add Blue Fin to the B'way list although it is not inexpensive. And btw, even though I live uptown, most of our weekend dining is downtown and has been for years simply because that's where many restaurants that we like are. In the many years living here, demographics change. Bottom line, if I weren't at work or going to theater, you couldn't pay me enough to get anywhere near Times Square especially for dining.

To add to the burger list: 5 Napkin Burger, Little Giant and Union Square Cafe (for lunch).

Adu - I ate at Pomaire this week - mediocre food. It was the extremely reasonable prix fixe, but at full price, it would have been robbery. I would never go back at any price. And 2nd Ave Deli is finally close to opening uptown. You were right that it's taken years.

CPGirl

And Pomaire is the one I would recommend out of the lot. The choice was akin to would you rather be given a lethal injection or hung.

Which place have you chosen for the East Village?
_________

BTW, Neo

I might be delusional, but I like to think of myself as something more than a stain on the carpet. But after years on Fodor's this estimation may be accurate to many.

I'll repeat that most of the places I mentioned have relatively inexpensive (by New York City standards) pre-theater prix-fixe menus. Milos, for example, offers a four-course dinner for $45 (plus beverages, tax and tip, of course). I can appreciate that some would consider that "pricey," but I can also appreciate that some are willing simply to eat instead of dine. That's certainly a matter of personal taste (no pun intended).

Incidentally, as terrific as Le Bernardin is, I would never consider going there pre-theater or pre-concert. While they, like all the others, can get you out the door in two hours or so, that place is certainly not one where I'd wish to rush through an exquisite dinner.

And, so far as dress code goes, it does make a difference to us what other diners wear. Peoples' attire contributes to, or detracts from, the overall ambiance of a place. "Jackets required" has become "jackets preferred." For the most part such "codes" have become fairly lax over the years even in gastronomic temples like Le Bernardin, where we've even seen (gasp!) tee-shirts and jeans. These days, restaurants are loath to turn people away no matter how inappropriately they are dressed. Does anyone remember when places used to have several jackets on hand for diners who arrived without one? (I can recall once being fitted with one--at the Ritz-Carlton in Naples, Florida--that had sleeves so long it must have been originally owned by an orangutan!)

I'm not really happy with the current sartorial trend, but I must admit that I've relaxed my own standards (to a point) when it comes to dining out in Manhattan and concert-going. When we're headed to the theater with dinner beforehand, I generally wear a sport coat with a sweater or dress shirt and slacks, no necktie. The same is true for Carnegie Hall. But for the Metropolitan Opera, I still wear a dress suit. Our Saturday matinée performances precede dinner out (usually for a large group of us) at some premier place. Dressing up is part of that monthly-or-so musical, social and gastronomical experience.

Frankly, I don't care whether an opera singer or an orchestra member can see what I'm wearing or not. I wear what I wear because it makes me feel good doing so, not to impress anyone positively or negatively.

And, no, I don't examine the quality or cost of someone's necktie or jewelry. The very fact that he or she bothered to wear it says plenty about that diner's sense of style and occasion. What offends me a great deal more is someone yakking away loudly and inconsiderately on a cell phone. (But, let's not go there.)

I'd add The Burger Joint at Le Parker Meridien (hidden off the 56th Street lobby) to the burger list. Cash only and no dress code.

adu - Cacio e Vino

CW Girl

Enjoy.
It is owned by the same people as Cacio e Pepe. I guess Pepe sold his interest to Vino.

We went to the NY Philharmonic for over 20 years. The only time I made sure I wore a suit was one opening night. They had Pinchas Zukerman, Schlomo Mintz (a favorite Israeli after dinner treat) and Itzhak Perlman.

I now live in a world where people do not dress up. For my real life job, I had to wear a suit every day even on summer Fridays. I would wear jeans to work and change in my office and then chnage again at the end of the day. I felt like was playing grpwn up. It was a facade that I did not relish.

What you wear is your concern and I am not part of the scenery. Enjoy the hell out of your meal or show and leave me out of it.

OK, that fully explains a lot. I DO understand your thinking regarding all that. But since it is clear you don't care what others around you are wearing and you don't care about "formal facades", then you would indeed be throwing money away to go to a place like LeBernardin, where the surroundings, ambiance,tuxedoed waiters, and -- yes, even the other patrons -- are all a major part of the total experience. Since you don't appreciate or relish that sort of experience, then indeed it would not be a worthwhile splurge to you. But it is to some of the rest of us.

But one part of your reply is quite interesting -- that you "made sure" you were very dressed up for that one very special concert. That's kind of how some of us feel about a once in a year type LeBernardin dining experience -- we want to make sure we are dressed for the special occasion and really hope everyone else does the same.

Petrossian! Thank you, bspielman! I've been racking my brain trying to come up with the name of that restaurant. I was there probably 18 years ago and love the memory of the waiter pouring vodka into frozen glasses and ending with a perfect meniscus.

But one part of your reply is quite interesting -- that you "made sure" you were very dressed up for that one very special concert.

There were one over-riding reason. I was afraid they would not let me in for opening night dressed in jeans even if they were black.
_________________________
I was there probably 18 years ago and love the memory of the waiter pouring vodka into frozen glasses and ending with a perfect meniscus.


What does your knee have to do with this?

It wasn't my knee.

Think test tube and chemistry days

I'll have to disagree with the blanket condemnation of establishments on Restaurant Row (West 46th between 8th and 9th) as "mediocre." There are at least two outstanding restaurants there, namely, Lattanzi and Orso. Cheap, they're not; but excellent, they are!
I'll be the first to admit that the theater district is not the prime location for a host of worthwhile restaurants, in terms of overall price and/or quality. But, if you take the time to check them out, there are some decent places to dine there. When I'm going to the theater, I don't want to have to schlep from a different area for dining to another area for theater.

I failed chemistry and injured my meniscus.

"When I'm going to the theater, I don't want to have to schlep from a different area for dining to another area for theater."

I totally agree.

When I'm going to the theater, I don't want to have to schlep from a different area for dining to another area for theater."

Unless you are staying in the Theater District, you have to come from some place else.

Yes, we do come from someplace else, but we're not eating in that someplace else area. So, for us to eat in a different area would mean two someplace elses!
Further, when we're going out for dinner and theater (or lunch and theater), it's just not same "night out" (or "day out") if we have to go through the bother of transporting ourselves between the two activities.

Also keep in mind that while locals may be familiar with the subways and buses and their schedules, visitors may not be. To recommend that a tourist leave a hotel in "somewhere else" in a different section of town, travel to another "somewhere else" such as the East Village for a "meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper", and then travel to the theatre district is adding 1) travel time and expense and 2) stress about making it back to the theatre before curtain call.

I've eaten pre-theatre meals near Herald Square and in the UWS and run into complications that made me worry about making the show in time. It's far less stressful - and far more enjoyable FOR SOME - to eat dinner within a few blocks. I've had to get up and leave the table (when dining with two Fodorites) in order to make my show - but I was only a couple of blocks away. All of the above can be stressful. Some opt to leave travel time (using subways or cabs) out of the equation - and there's nothing wrong with that. Even IF that's not the option someone else, tourist or local, may take.

starrs, I totally agree with what you say. I thought about adding similar comments, but I got lazy.....So, I'm glad you brought up the "rush-worry-stressful" factor. And,who needs it when you're for a night (or day) on the town?

There are plenty of restaurants in the West Village, SOHO, Tribeca, Chelsea, and the Meat Packing District where many of CIAONY selections are listed above all of which are on the westside and just a couple of subway stops to the Theater District, a straight shot cab ride, bus ride, or even a walk away if you are in Chelsea.

" And,who needs it when you're for a night (or day) on the town?"

Not me!

Nothing is worse than the indigestion after your meal when there's a snafu and you are worried that you are going to miss a show that you spent $$$ for. And for me, and I'm only speaking for myself, the show is more important than the meal before.

As someone pointed out upthread, there's a time for the fine dining experience and there's a time for a pre-theatre meal. Given that there ARE some good choices within a few blocks of Broadway shows, it's a great option that many of us choose.

Aduchamp1, we'll never agree on this point for one very obvious reason : starrs and I feel that it's definitely possible to have a good meal in the theater district and you don't!

By the way there is no such thing as a guaranteed "short cab ride" from Soho or West Village to most Broadway theatres at 7:00 or 7:30 at night. Many people have sat in cabs in stopped traffic and missed shows for that very reason, or finally hopped out of the cab and run the last 10 blocks or so to try to get to the theatre when the taxis can't get anywhere. Starrs is absolutely right. For many of us the $200 or so we spent on a couple tickets for a show is a LOT more important than traveling to a distant spot and getting indigestion worrying about getting there in rush hour traffic then trying to get back in the gridlock at Broadway curtain time. And when there really are a lot of good options that are a block or two walk from the theatre -- with no indigestion -- well, the choice is obvious -- to most of us who actually do that.

Even in my own small city, when I go to the theatre I always prefer eating near the theatre rather than dining in another area and then worrying about traffic, parking, or other complications getting to the curtain on time.

Auduchamp, if you lived in the Upper West Side and you were going to some event on the upper East side, how likely would you be to select a restaurant in Soho before that event? Yet that's what you're suggesting when someone is staying at the Marquis and seeing a show two blocks away -- it is total insanity to go to Soho just to eat and then come back to the same place you started to see the show -- unless there is some earthshattering reason to go to a specific restaurant.

There are fine places on the UES and the UWS so one need not go to Soho just to eat.

Neo recommended DB Moderne, for which I have read good things and have enjoyed his Boulud Cafe. But for the uninitiated, the basic burger and fries is $32 as opposed to his burger with truffles for either $75 or $150.

So while everyone's stomach is contorted by the tribualtions of transportation, I do not want to spend other people's money or give them recommendations without caveats or watch their stomach turn when the check comes.

BTW, I see there are tens of restuarants on Ninth Ave. that are never recommended besides the Napkin Burger. Has anyone tried any of these estanlishments?

Please read my first paragraph from 10:09 this morning.

This is what actually happened tonight: Our plan was to take the subway downtown to Astor Place, walk a few blocks to the restaurant and then walk a block to the theater. The train was so crowded (uptown) that we couldn't get on (and believe me, I have no problem wedging myself like a sardine in a can). After a wait for the next train, we learned it was not making local stops south of Grand Central. We decided to get off at Union Square and cab it. Unfortunately the train didn't move between stations for 15 minutes! When we finally got to US, it was raining hard, very windy and of course, no cabs. We were late; we walked to Third and luckily got a cab. Our friends were waiting and all worked out okay. Moral of the story: I will always dine NEAR a theatre!

"BTW, I see there are tens of restuarants on Ninth Ave. that are never recommended besides the Napkin Burger. Has anyone tried any of these estanlishments?"

Short memory. I've recommended one in the last week - and you questioned me about it.

"There are fine places on the UES and the UWS so one need not go to Soho just to eat." Precisely -- so it's time to realize that the same thing applies to midtown. There ARE fine places to eat there as well so one doesn't need to go to Soho to eat when one is in midtown, and is going to see a show in midtown.

The "basic" burger at dbModerne is NOT a basic burger, by any stretch of imagination. Stuffed with fois gras and shredded short ribs, it's perhaps the most exotic and wonderful burger I've ever eaten -- spectacular -- although it really shouldn't even be called a burger.

Ninth Avenue? Film Center Cafe, Marseille, Room Service (Thai), Zen Palate, Hell's Kitchen, Chimichurri Grill, Five Napkin Burger, Island Burgers (now that's a great BASIC burger but you can't get french fries), Eatery, Rice and Beans, Uncle Nick's -- these are all places I'd happily eat at any time and can afford to eat at most any time.

CPG -- welcome to the club. I've been there and done that. That's exactly the sort of thing we were talking about!

""There are fine places on the UES and the UWS so one need not go to Soho just to eat." Precisely -- so it's time to realize that the same thing applies to midtown. There ARE fine places to eat there as well so one doesn't need to go to Soho to eat when one is in midtown, and is going to see a show in midtown."
Amen.

"That's exactly the sort of thing we were talking about!"
Amen and amen.

It's almost a consensus on this thread. So far, anyway

So, is dining in the theater district a necessary evil then, but with some peaks among many valleys?

I really should go up there some times and see if anything floats my boat.

I just can't come up with a good answer to the question: What incentive does the owner of a restaurant in that area have to consistently provide a New-York-City-quality meal to such a consistently transient, and somewhat captive, clientele?

No, ciaony, what some of us are trying to say is that dining in the theater district does not have to be a necessary evil. You just have to choose wisely! We've been doing just that for years!

"I just can't come up with a good answer to the question: What incentive does the owner of a restaurant in that area have to consistently provide a New-York-City-quality meal to such a consistently transient, and somewhat captive, clientele?"

I have no idea where that concept is coming from. You can't expect a "good answer" to a question that is based on something that isn't the case. There are MORE actual residents in the area from 42nd Street to 54th Street and from 7th Avenue to 10th Avenue than in MANY parts of the city. Its density of RESIDENTS is actually higher than most anywhere in Soho, the Meatpacking, or the Village I'm willing to bet. Have you seen the size of some of those expensive high rise condos and apartment buildings? Sure there are a lot of tourists in that area (but even then, many of them are repeat customers and every good restaurant owner knows his business will grow with GOOD word of mouth, not just getting people in once and giving them a bad meal). But beyond that -- when I eat at most of those 9th Avenue places for example -- it's quite clear that the majority of the people there are from the "neighborhood" and are regular customers. I can't believe anyone could live in New York City and not know that midtown West has one of the highest concentrations of residents in Manhattan. And it's growing. Have you seen what's happened on 42nd Street from 7th Avenue to the Hudson? HUGE new condos and apartment buildings, and a couple more on 8th Avenue in the mid 40's. Do you honestly think those tens of thousands of people won't support a huge number of "local" restaurants in their own neighborhoods?

Using that philosophy, ciaony, there must be no good restaurants in the Union Square area of San Francisco, or the River North area of Chicago or certainly in the French Quarter in New Orleans. The fact is that MANY tourists really are foodies and not all a bunch of farmers who thrive on MacDonalds. The idea that if an area has a lot of tourists no one will pay attention to good food is just plain outdated and ludicrous.

All this talk of dining pre-theater in SoHo or on the Upper East or West Sides misses the point. No one is his right mind would venture that far away and hope to avoid any potential traffic or transit problems when headed to a theater.

I think, when most people ask on these forums where they can eat (or dine) "in the theater district," they are unnecessarily restricting themselves to an area a mere few blocks from whichever theater they're headed for. Were they to broaden their search by several more blocks to a larger area, say, north as far as 59th Street and east as far as Sixth or Fifth--still a reasonable walk or one or two subway stops to most theaters--they'd find many places of significantly higher quality than most, if not all, of the places "in the theater district" as most people think of it.

Many, many places--not "in the theater district"--offer pre-theater, prix-fixe dinners. Who are these offerings intended for if not for theater- or concert-goers? Every one of these places understands that people have curtains to make, and they all make every effort to get people on their way in plenty of time. For example, we had an 8:00 concert this past Wednesday at Carnegie Hall. The server at Milos on West 55th asked if we had theater plans. I told her that we did, adding that we'd like to be on our way by about 7:30 (we had a 5:30 reservation). If she hadn't asked, I would have made it clear at the outset what our schedule needed to be. We didn't in the least feel rushed, but she made sure that our dinner ended on time. (A tip, by the way: When presented with the bill--ask for it, if necessary--have your credit card(s) ready to hand to the server; it saves an extra round-trip for her, and speeds your departure.)

I agree with the sentiment that a night out at the theater or a concert is about the play or the music, but that doesn't mean one must sacrifice the opportunity to dine well and at a reasonable (by NYC standards) cost, even if that means walking several more blocks than one might originally have planned. Midtown West is full of great restaurants. Why settle for a mediocre one "in the theater district"?

Actually, Warren, we have tried some of the Ninth Avenue places pre-Carnegie Hall. We've never returned to a single one of them.

In short, you get what you pay for. They're relatively inexpensive, but they're absolutely jammed, with, for the most part, mediocre food, inattentive service (probably related to the number of diners relative to the number of servers--why do you think they're so cheap?), and luncheonette-like decor.

For a few dollars more and, perhaps a slightly longer walk to the theater or Carnegie, you can do a hell of a lot better.

NeoPatrick,
With ALL due respect (by your posts it is obvious you are a well-traveled and intelligent person), you've stated several assumptions about residency in Midtown.
Here's one more assumption I'm willing to bet is a fact: If every single one of those residents stopped patronizing the local restaurants, most of those businesses could still survive.

Those restaurants exist because of tourism. The business they get from locals is a bonus.

Of course this is probably less true as the circle expands from Times Square.

Any time I've ever waited on a line to get into Carmine's or Becco, I was standing among tourists. That's not an assumption, that's a fact.
And it's not a bad thing. It's a great thing for NYC.
Just maybe not for the quality of the meal.

The places on my list exist, overwhelmingly, for the New Yorkers that keep them busy Monday through Thursday afternoons and evenings and their owners know that.

I think we've lost the point to my original post.

Well, what you say is true, but the other point being missed which some of us have tried to state over and over time and time again -- is that when we say "eat near the theatre" or eat in the theatre district" we do not mean literally within 20 yards of Times Square. Many of us have listed dozens of restaurants OTHER than those like Becco and Carmine's, which admittedly really depend on tourists. The point we have made is that there are many other GOOD restaurants which are NOT relying on tourists which are within walking distance of theatres and midtown hotels -- and that was MY original point in bringing it up --the point that you have lost just as much as my losing your point in suggesting that there are only tourist restaurants near the theatre (that was you point right?) My original point was please locals -- stop telling people who want to get a decent (not necessarily a destination dining experience) near theatres that it is simply not possible to do! Or that they should foolishly fight traffic, transportation issues, and crowds, and often missing curtains or getting indigestion because they've been foolishly told they can't get a decent meal unless they go miles away. That's just plain hogwash! People are asking specifically for restaurants other than the Olive Gardens, Carmine's, and Becco (or Broadway Joe if you want the ultimate tourist only place). So it's nice when they can get those recommendations, not simply be told they can't get a good meal within a five or ten minute walk of their theatre or hotel.

The other point being lost is that it is purely a myth that if tourists go to a place it must be bad -- or that there aren't many, many tourists who ONLY like really good places and they are seeking them out. What makes some people think that all locals have great taste in food, but no tourists do? If anything the opposite could almost be more true -- while locals who eat out all the time may go to a place that's merely OK or a good standby they're comfortable with, even though they know there are many other places that could be better -- many tourists want every meal they're having on their vacation to be really special in some way. There really are a LOT of tourists who travel as much to eat as anything else.

No one here is trying to convince people who live in other areas of Manhattan that they should be going to the theatre district to eat unless they have a reason to go there -- like seeing a show themselves. But it is just as silly to tell people IN the theatre district that they should travel to another area because they can't get a decent meal without doing so. That's the silly myth that some New Yorkers seem to want to perpetuate because frankly they just don't know any better. It's one thing to say "I don't have any reason to go to the theatre district and have eaten at very few restaurants there, so I can't offer any recommendations" and quite another to say "there are no good places to eat anywhere near the theatres".

ooops. Huge apology, cianony. I reply to ideas not to "people". I lost track that you were in fact the original poster of this thread -- and so of course, yes, you are right that we have lost track of your ORIGINAL point. I was thinking your comment at 1:04 this morning was your first one. Duh on my part!

That was a great listing of restaurants in Manhattan as I stated way back when in the thread. We got off track when someone asked for a suggestion in the theatre district and basically he was being told there aren't any good ones. So of course like on all posts, discussion follows.

You did say yourself in your second post that "I fully understand, however, that there MUST be some good food up there somewhere. I just tend to stay downtown." And you even displayed an open mindedness about finding or trying some places. The real getting away from that was a result of several of us trying to be helpful when someone DID ask for recommendations in that area of the city and suddenly it turned to a "none of those places could be any good because there aren't any good places near the theatres", and the silly-in-my-book recommendation to go through the hassle of leaving the area and getting back again at the worst times of day as it's impossible to find a decent meal without doing so. It is unfortunate that a great post about restaurants got off track so quickly, but in all honesty, why shouldn't we all be able to speak our mind when someone asks a question? Or were we really just supposed to ignore a worthwhile question that deserved an answer. I think the conversation has been civil and intelligent on all accounts. That's what good threads should be, in my book. Isn't it?

CP Girl

The irony of your post is that you were delayed trying to eat in the neighborhood of the play.

________________________

I have not discussed the Theater District restaurant situation in some time and the last time I did it was with Neo. And I will end with what I think I is the sentiment I ended the last discussion, please eat in the Theater District, it will keep more tables open in other neighborhoods.

_______________

CIAONY

We love Despana, the chorizos are the best we have had in the United States. They supply many of the tapas places with their chorizos including Bar Carrera and Tia Pol. The only problem with Despana is the limited hours, limited selection of tapas and self-service. The also make an excellent morcilla, which is clearly not on the list of any veggie people. And the quality of imported cheeses snd olive oils, although expensive, are very high.

Adu - Exactly. That is why although I don't love many restaurants in the theater district, I will continue to eat close to the theater where I have tix. You never know what could happen with transportation and I want to be very close to the theater. That's what works best for me.

Getting back to Le Bernadin for a moment, I thought some people here might like to read this review posted yesterday on Chowhound.com.

Eric Ripert has been in the restaurant on the 3-4 occasions that I have eaten there.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/779315

If we are talking about the "better" places within walking distance of the theatre district, we should also mention one of my current favorites in the city, Marea, on Central Park South/Broadway. Italian seafood. Not inexpensive. Good value, though.


http://www.marea-nyc.com/


Too far to walk for some, not too far for others.

Unfortunately, Marea, unlike its predecessor in the same space, San Domenico, does not offer a pre-theater prix-fixe menu. We miss SD, and its 26th Street successor, SD26, isn't nearly as good.

SD26 has a very nice tavola fredda lunch for like $15. It's an excellent deal.

...and I'm officially adding Scali Caffe on Bleecker St to my list. Great Italian caffe food for cheap.

Raoul's on Prince Street in SoHo should really be on my list, too.

Bookmarking now as I missed this thread the first time around--thanks for all the good recs!

I know this is an old thread but I've been thinking ab midtown restaurants, and went to a new place in Murray Hill last wk...

I had a good dinner in Murray Hill last week at Aquamarine on 2nd Ave. This was an unexpected find. I was staying at the Eastside Towers and Aquamarine was around the corner. The place was busy on a Monday night. Good drinks, reasonable prices, and very good food. Good noodle soup, good sushi and sashimi, good Japanese noodle dish.

I also like 2nd Ave Deli. Who doesn't love getting a bowl of pickles and vinegared slaw slung onto your table as soon as you sit down. IMO, their pastrami and corned beef and matzo ball soup beat Katz and Carnegie Deli hands down.

There are a couple reasonably priced places in midtown that I like for the food, and I go to them when I am staying anywhere in NYC. One is Guantanamera, for good Cuban food and music, fun atmosphere at dinner (on 8th Ave close to 56th). And Bamboo 52, for creative and reasonable sushi and rolls, and good cocktails, open late (52nd btwn 8th and 9th Aves)

Bookmarking. ciaony, thank you for starting this thread!

I wish there was a way to bookmark without "posting". So many times I have to do this to save information. Great suggestions!

great list! many places to explore...
bookmark

Carlota: You are coming back to NYC?

I am going to add a new theater district restaurant that I have dined at several times in last few months. E & E Grill, directly across the st. from Eugene O'Neill theater. We have gone here twice while staying in other areas of Manhattan and not attending theater that evening. It is very very good. I wish there were more places like this in the theater district.

I still miss Sam's.

I can't understand a word Eric Ripert says.

Eat light before the theatre. Don't make a big deal out of pre-theatre dinner. If you want something special make a late night, post-theatre dinner reservation and enjoy the rest of your evening out of the Theatre District.

Theatre night has never been a big dining out night for us. Pre-theatre is usually pizza at John's or oysters somewhere. We avoid beer too; it leaves a strong, residual scent. Champagne or vodka isn't a terrible compromise and champagne is delicious with pizza. Prosecco will do in a pinch.

Theatre wear: I don't give a hoot what you wear as long as your husband's hairy legs are encased in a pair of long trousers, I'm good. That goes for the plane ride too.

I'll add my favorite - the West Bank Cafe - http://www.westbankcafe.com/

At the corner of 9th and 42nd - steps away from Broadway theaters but not in the craziness of Times Square. Excellent food, service, wine in a wonderful space.

I always forget about the West Bank Cafe and we always enjoy it there.

Hi, just reading this post and would like to ask a recommendation ..for having breakfast at a typical and good, not outrageous expensive
New York diner.one that opens early...close to the Natural Science Museum. The Museum will be our first stop for the day after breakfast..the ones that were recommended to me by a New Yorker..EAT, Petes and Vinyl, don't seem to work..EAT sounds very expensive..Petes is closed and couldn't find Vinyl..we will be walking thru the park from upper east side.thanks for any help.
ALSO..saw Becco's name a lot on the posts..I understand the food there is not too bad for the price and is close to the theatres..
thanks, D.

http://vynl-nyc.com/

Not near the AMNH.

There is a decent diner on Madison between 84th and 85th..the New Amity.

1134 Madison Avenue



EAT is often cited as THE quintessential lunch spot for Upper East Side ladies who want a quick lunch. You are right..it is very pricey.

Cafe Viand is ok for breakfast. It's adjacent to the Hotel Beacon and 'around the corner' from AMNH.

Were you looking for lunch or breakfast places?

Hi, and thanks..the New Amity looks good..will check Viand reviews..we are looking for breakfast that day..will have lunch in the Museum of Natural History..is it ok?
thanks, D.

There's a decent coffee shop on Madsion & 81-82 called Nectar thta's a lot better and cheerier imo than Amity. http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/nectar-restaurant/

but there are loads of iconic places on the upper west side including Popover Cafe, Zabar's Cafe, Barney's Greengrass and Good Enough to Eat.

ekscrunchy, unfortunally I'm not...at least at the moment...my parents are in a couple of weeks and I'm organising the trip for them

Davisman, How far east are you coming from? There are many diners on the UES.

Hi, thanks,,this day we will start out at 81st and 2nd street..would love to find a great and friendly place to take my family for breakfast.
Thanks, D.