United Airlines: Possible Liquidation by June 30!
Mar 20th, 2003, 08:30 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd rather see them go bankrupt than keep using tax payer dollars to bail out a company which is so poorly mismanaged, there's no hope of them producing a cash flow positive balance sheet. I know, less competition means higher prices, but I'd rather the price be built in to the ticket and borne by travellers than have everyone's taxes used to bail out unprofitable and mismanaged corporations. I feel bad for all the employees there but United is a bad company, period. The common employees have already carried the burden of mismanagement with the unions all taking pay cuts and now they are trying to back out of a labor contract and all they tell their employees is, "take this pay cut or loose your jobs". Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard any plans where management gets massive pay cuts and loses their stock options and bonuses. How much does the CEO get paid? How much are they losing each quarter? Good riddance! Thanks to SWA and Jet Blue for showing that profitability is possible even in a bearish economy.
Mar 21st, 2003, 07:10 AM
#4
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lodi,
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
If UAL is to survive they MUST get their costs competitive with other airlines and that means drastically changing the pay & benefits of employees. The mis-management you mention, includes overpaying workers.
To save the airline, the board of directors has a fiduciary responsibility to reduce costs and/or back out of union contracts. Do you know that UAL is the only airline in the world that is contracturally obligated to have a high paid mechanic at every pushback? IT's union padding like that that kept UAL non competitive.
You mention Jet Blue and Southwest, If UAL could pay UAL workers what Jet Blue and Southwest pay, maybe they would have been fine.
I'm not sure if you are a UAL employee (or close to one) or just a union member....but you need to be more objective.
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
If UAL is to survive they MUST get their costs competitive with other airlines and that means drastically changing the pay & benefits of employees. The mis-management you mention, includes overpaying workers.
To save the airline, the board of directors has a fiduciary responsibility to reduce costs and/or back out of union contracts. Do you know that UAL is the only airline in the world that is contracturally obligated to have a high paid mechanic at every pushback? IT's union padding like that that kept UAL non competitive.
You mention Jet Blue and Southwest, If UAL could pay UAL workers what Jet Blue and Southwest pay, maybe they would have been fine.
I'm not sure if you are a UAL employee (or close to one) or just a union member....but you need to be more objective.
Mar 21st, 2003, 11:42 AM
#5
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loki,
You really don't understand what the government has done with the airlines. The government has not " keep using tax payer dollars to bail out a company".
The government has "guaranteed" any loans, which, by the way, are extremely hard to come by. Just ask a few of the airlines that were turned down on their "guarantee" request and went out of business.
Dick has put it right. You need to look before you leap, Loki.
As Dick has pointed out, the union contracts are extremely expensive. Time to get back to the real world.
Do you know the salary comparisons between a United pilot and a Southwest pilot??? Suffice it to say it's TONS! When you look at the retirement benifits for pilots on the major airlines (AA, UA, etc.), you would like to be so lucky.
Curious
You really don't understand what the government has done with the airlines. The government has not " keep using tax payer dollars to bail out a company".
The government has "guaranteed" any loans, which, by the way, are extremely hard to come by. Just ask a few of the airlines that were turned down on their "guarantee" request and went out of business.
Dick has put it right. You need to look before you leap, Loki.
As Dick has pointed out, the union contracts are extremely expensive. Time to get back to the real world.
Do you know the salary comparisons between a United pilot and a Southwest pilot??? Suffice it to say it's TONS! When you look at the retirement benifits for pilots on the major airlines (AA, UA, etc.), you would like to be so lucky.
Curious
Mar 21st, 2003, 11:50 AM
#6
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope UAL doesn't go under, because it's the only major airline that flies into and out of my little town year round. These flights are almost always fully booked. The possible loss of United would mean a 3-4 hour drive to get to any reasonably sized airport.
Mar 21st, 2003, 12:25 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, there are a lot of differences between UAL and SWA/Jet Blue. UAL is the one that pays millions each year to have their name on a basketball court. That's responsible management...
If the gov't guarantees a loan and the company defaults as UAL will according to every fanancial analyst who has looked at their balance sheet, where do you think the money for the guarantee comes from?
How can you defend signing a contract with your employees and then trying to back out? Do you guys upper managers?
If the gov't guarantees a loan and the company defaults as UAL will according to every fanancial analyst who has looked at their balance sheet, where do you think the money for the guarantee comes from?
How can you defend signing a contract with your employees and then trying to back out? Do you guys upper managers?
Mar 24th, 2003, 06:21 AM
#9
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lodi,
"How can you defend signing a contract with your employees and then trying to back out? Do you guys upper managers?"
It's really very easy, it's called trying to save the company ....and as many jobs as they can.
That is what bankruptcy allows. If they union doesn go along...teh company can void their contract. After all, if UAL folds, they wil get nothing.
Since you use Jetblue and Southwest airlines as examples.
1. JetBlue is non-union
2 "Southwest's pilots are independently unionized, and while its overall labor costs are just slightly below average, they are more efficient because they fly far more hours than those at other airlines. National union rules limit the number of hours pilots can fly. "
Since you like Southwest and JetBlue so much, how about letting UAL have the same pay rates, benefits and work rules as they do?
UAL's only hope of long term survival is to get their costs in line with other airlines.
"How can you defend signing a contract with your employees and then trying to back out? Do you guys upper managers?"
It's really very easy, it's called trying to save the company ....and as many jobs as they can.
That is what bankruptcy allows. If they union doesn go along...teh company can void their contract. After all, if UAL folds, they wil get nothing.
Since you use Jetblue and Southwest airlines as examples.
1. JetBlue is non-union
2 "Southwest's pilots are independently unionized, and while its overall labor costs are just slightly below average, they are more efficient because they fly far more hours than those at other airlines. National union rules limit the number of hours pilots can fly. "
Since you like Southwest and JetBlue so much, how about letting UAL have the same pay rates, benefits and work rules as they do?
UAL's only hope of long term survival is to get their costs in line with other airlines.
Mar 24th, 2003, 06:35 AM
#10
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone ever insured their FF miles through:
http://www.privilegeflyer.com/
$119 seems like a small price to pay for peace of mind. Are they reputable? Anyone ever have a claim against them? Have over 350,000 UA miles and over 100,000 USAir miles. Appreciate opinions.
http://www.privilegeflyer.com/
$119 seems like a small price to pay for peace of mind. Are they reputable? Anyone ever have a claim against them? Have over 350,000 UA miles and over 100,000 USAir miles. Appreciate opinions.
Mar 24th, 2003, 06:44 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nick,
I don't have the figures, but I'd bet UAL pays their executives a heck of a lot more than Jet Blue and SWA. I agree that they must get costs in line with other airlines but I don't think voiding their contracts and cutting the lower salaries is the way to go. I think the problems are much deeper than that: the aircraft they fly, the terminals they own/lease, the routes they fly, the ticket pricing scheme, etc. Salaries aside, the 2 airlines I brought up, operate very polar to UAL. I think market specific airlines is the wave of the future and you'll see more problems for guys like UAL, AA and Delta who try and fly everywhere, all the time. Sure, ticket prices might be higher because of less competition but selling fares at a loss doesn't really help the consumer or the employees in the long run. I do have some colleagues that work in the airline industry (none for Jet Blue or SWA) and it was painfull to hear stats for one airline in terms of how many business/first class tickets they had to sell on a flight in order to make a profit. They also ran routes that were completely unprofitable just to have a presence on that route so their otherwise loyal business passangers wouldn't be wooed away by a great experience on another airline while travelling to a leisure destination.
I don't have the figures, but I'd bet UAL pays their executives a heck of a lot more than Jet Blue and SWA. I agree that they must get costs in line with other airlines but I don't think voiding their contracts and cutting the lower salaries is the way to go. I think the problems are much deeper than that: the aircraft they fly, the terminals they own/lease, the routes they fly, the ticket pricing scheme, etc. Salaries aside, the 2 airlines I brought up, operate very polar to UAL. I think market specific airlines is the wave of the future and you'll see more problems for guys like UAL, AA and Delta who try and fly everywhere, all the time. Sure, ticket prices might be higher because of less competition but selling fares at a loss doesn't really help the consumer or the employees in the long run. I do have some colleagues that work in the airline industry (none for Jet Blue or SWA) and it was painfull to hear stats for one airline in terms of how many business/first class tickets they had to sell on a flight in order to make a profit. They also ran routes that were completely unprofitable just to have a presence on that route so their otherwise loyal business passangers wouldn't be wooed away by a great experience on another airline while travelling to a leisure destination.
Mar 24th, 2003, 07:08 AM
#12
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I too, think corporate salaries are too high.
However, most of the dollars go to pilots and other workers...not executives.
"Labor represents the largest expense for all airlines, even the small regionals. But for some carriers, it makes up a crushing 40% of costs. The average is 37%, according to the Air Transport Association"
HAving the ability to void union contracts is one of the reasons that bankruptcy is attractive. You may not like it, but it is perfectly legal.
Let's not forget that UAL wa semployee owned. The pilots and the Machinists each had seats on the board of directors of United's parent company, UAL Corp. The employees effectively selected the company's top executives.
So the greedy people at the top were mostly employees.
However, most of the dollars go to pilots and other workers...not executives.
"Labor represents the largest expense for all airlines, even the small regionals. But for some carriers, it makes up a crushing 40% of costs. The average is 37%, according to the Air Transport Association"
HAving the ability to void union contracts is one of the reasons that bankruptcy is attractive. You may not like it, but it is perfectly legal.
Let's not forget that UAL wa semployee owned. The pilots and the Machinists each had seats on the board of directors of United's parent company, UAL Corp. The employees effectively selected the company's top executives.
So the greedy people at the top were mostly employees.
Mar 24th, 2003, 07:29 AM
#13
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
recently I was told of a person who booked a UAL flight and unable to get a window or aisle seat was seated in the middle between two UAL employees who were flying for free.
The free flight privileges have always been a big benefit for employees and their families but this is a little much IMO.
This shows the high regard UAL felt for this paying passenger. He said it just underscored the problems of the older airlines and their employees. Times have changed and they haven't. Jet Blue and Spirit Airlines are flying and making a profit. UAL and others are just hanging on by a thread.
The free flight privileges have always been a big benefit for employees and their families but this is a little much IMO.
This shows the high regard UAL felt for this paying passenger. He said it just underscored the problems of the older airlines and their employees. Times have changed and they haven't. Jet Blue and Spirit Airlines are flying and making a profit. UAL and others are just hanging on by a thread.
Mar 24th, 2003, 08:02 AM
#14
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's much easier to make a profit when you don't have unions or national union rules to deal with.
It appears that you don't have to pay as much to workers and the big airlines previously thought necessary.
It appears that you don't have to pay as much to workers and the big airlines previously thought necessary.
Mar 24th, 2003, 08:10 AM
#15
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Employees that fly "free" fly standby and do pay all the tax/service charges. If they weren't in that seat, it would be empty. They get on the flight after all the revenue passengers so have no effect on the profitability.
Mar 24th, 2003, 11:20 AM
#16
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
petlover, you miss the point. I agree that employees are taking up otherwise empty seats but these employees were taking up premium seats that should go to paying passengers. let the employee sit in the middle seat. it is this disregard of the paying public, just like the treatment of the business traveller that is putting the final nail in their coffin.
Mar 26th, 2003, 08:42 AM
#18
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only speak for my own airline employee experience....non-rev passengers are the last to board and get whatever seats are left over...if any. On full flights you seldom sit next to your traveling companions etc. Now if the flight is NOT full, then they will issue a boarding pass etc. much earlier but I've never heard of a non-rev passenger taking up an isle or window seat over a paying passenger. I've had situations on sold out flights where I was in my seat, buckled up and a revenue passenger shows up at the last minute. I've received a very soft spoken "excuse me" from a flight attendent or ground personnel, and it is understood that I graciously stand up and relinquish my seat with nothing said whatsoever. I am not familiar with the policy of UA but I would imagine the non-revenue policies and procedures are similar.
Mar 26th, 2003, 01:09 PM
#19
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A very good friend and UA retired res. agent just spent 9 hours in an airport waiting for a seat to open up to get her home. Don't know if all employees are treated equally -- as in, pilots vs. res. agents -- but otherwise there is a seniority system based on how many years you have put in with the company. My friend retired with 25 yrs., but there are still a few with more seniority. SHe has never managed to find herself in a "privileged" seat when there were any revenue-passengers yet to be boarded. These people are the last to be boarded, and sometimes it's a matter of what seats were not purchased, even at the last minute.
It might work differently for executive-level employees or pilots "dead-heading," but things are getting worse, not better, for the employees in general.
On another note: I just discovered an itinerary booked months ago with UA has been changed for a THIRD time without any notification to me. First point: the agent I talked to explained that there have been huge changes of flights, schedules, and flight numbering this week, so if you know anyone with any UA reservations, they'd best check.
Second point: It was explained to me that if you book on-line, yourself, it is assumed that you will look after your own itinerary (as if you were your own travel agent). This time, they had me landing to make a connection with a flight that now left 2 hrs. earlier than my arrival. All fixed, and they were very helpful in fixing it, even apologetic. But be alert.
It might work differently for executive-level employees or pilots "dead-heading," but things are getting worse, not better, for the employees in general.
On another note: I just discovered an itinerary booked months ago with UA has been changed for a THIRD time without any notification to me. First point: the agent I talked to explained that there have been huge changes of flights, schedules, and flight numbering this week, so if you know anyone with any UA reservations, they'd best check.
Second point: It was explained to me that if you book on-line, yourself, it is assumed that you will look after your own itinerary (as if you were your own travel agent). This time, they had me landing to make a connection with a flight that now left 2 hrs. earlier than my arrival. All fixed, and they were very helpful in fixing it, even apologetic. But be alert.
Thread
Original Poster
Forum
Replies
Last Post
martytravels
Air Travel
14
Aug 14th, 2008 08:42 AM
martytravels
Air Travel
4
Jun 28th, 2008 10:26 AM
intellectual56
Air Travel
14
Jun 27th, 2008 06:09 AM
