Sorry you had such a negative experience in San Francisco. The kinds of experiences you found are the reason we haven't done a city vacation.

So tell about the good part of the trip. What was wonderful on the coast road??

Dang. Years ago - we loved picking up sandwiches, etc - and having our lunch in Union Square - watching the world go by.

Things seem to have changed. I know during my last visit - Chinatown was mobbed on a Saturday - but many were "local" Chinese coming in from the Avenues to shop!!!

And "Norta" Beach was also busy - even if most of the delis are gone - as many of the old/classic restaurants/cafes - but you could still park at the Vallejo St. garage if you didn't find a place on the street - and slide into Cafe Trieste http://www.caffetrieste.com/ for an expresso/maybe hear some music - or walk along Columbus and visit Cafe Puccini - another favorite. http://sanfrancisco.citysearch.com/profile/917721/san_francisco_ca/caffe_puccini.html

But such a shame about the places you tried. Guess "Baghdad by the Bay" - as famed columnist Herb Caen used to call it - has somewhat gone to seed?

And there is nothing I hate worse than panhandlers with a sense of entitlement. They try to browbeat people into supporting their lifestyle, and if they are on drugs - all the more of a concern, because even if one did by chance wind up punching one out - the friends will tell the police it was all your fault.

And as for restaurants - again - no idea it was that crowded or such a hassle to park, although again - knew parking had gotten worse in the City. Had heard Guy Danko can be reserved weeks out - but no idea it was such a concern elsewhere too.

Geesh - makes me yearn for the days (again long ago) - when living on Union St - or before that in Sausalito.

you could walk to restaurants. Even going into the City from Sausalito - it was an easy drive - where you could park fairly easily at/around most places, even down by Scomas - where they didn't take reservations but if you knew the gal at the desk - no problemo.

And you used to even be able to order Abalone sometimes (when it was in - but even back then - it was becoming tres pricey) and our favorite - Rex Sole - but it's very hard to find the "King" of Sole anymore also.

Tadich's http://www.tadichgrill.com/ used to do a great Rex Sole - and the (traditionally) male waiters - with just the proper aplomb - loved to make a big presentation of de boning if for you at your table.

Hey - they knew it was good for a couple of more dollars on their tip.

But that was loooooooooooooong ago...................................

My friend is currently in SF (her firts visit) and i was telling her how great it is (I haven't been for 8 years) she just texted me to say she saw a homeless person with a sign saying "Dollars for weed please" she said she wanted to throw a rock at him, i mean she could understand "dollars for food " but weed, come on!!!.
she is loving SF BUT said there are some very aggresive sellers on the pavemnet!!
Pity,my BF and I are going back in November and i had planned on extending from the 3 days i have booked. Not sure i will now, we will just carry on south to Carmel....
I must admit if there is a restaurant i really want to go to, I normally book a few weeks before I leave, i don't like leaving it to chance, but that's just me

Stay over in lovely Sausalito and take the ferry to the City.

I love San Francisco, warts and all, but I also feel the vagrant issue is also out of control. It was much worse a few months ago than it was a few years ago when we first visited San Francisco, in my opinion.

You must know, having lived in NYC and L.A., that it isn't unusual to have to secure a restaurant reservation weeks, even a month, in advance. Not being able to get a reservation a 'few days' in advance doesn't surprise me at all; I would have been surprised if you'd been able to reserve with such short notice.

Is 10:00 too late for dinner? What time do you usually eat dinner in the city?

I am so glad I read this forum. It now changes my mind about staying in the Union Square area. I am planning a coast drive from LA to Frisco in October with my husband. He has never been to San Francisco. We are stopping in San Jose to stay with friends for a few days and then driving up to Frisco for the remainder of our vacation. We will have a rental car and need somewhere that is convenient to park. The only reason we are keeping the car once we get into the city is we are driving up to Point Reyes to see family one day. I am very concerned about the homeless problem. We live in NYC and are not oblivious to the problem however, it seems it is much worse in Frisco and I really don't need the stress when we are on vacation with people in your face urging trouble. Can someone suggest an alternative to staying in Union Square?

I can suggest an alternative to "Frisco".

We go to SF every year to visit our daughter. we love the city, and almost never visit the Union Square area. First off, SF is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Walking thru Pacific Heights, driving up to Twin Peaks, exploring the off the beaten track areas like Clement Street, the Presidio, Golden Gate Park, the Marina, Japantown, Fillmore street, etc, etc is what the city is all about. These areas are perfectly safe, clean and lots of fun.

Patsy, 2 things:
1. You can stay near the Market or closer to Fisherman's Wharf.

2. Referring to S.F. as 'Frisco' is like hearing nails on a chalkboard, just so you know.

I'm sure I overlook the homeless problem because I live here (I've been told by people on this forum that I'm oblivious to it). That said, Union Square is the main downtown shopping area, with all the high-end boutiques and department stores and many fine hotels, not to mention the millions of patrons who visit every year (local and not). Don't stay there if you don't want to stay in a dense urban high-end shopping district, but understand what you are avoiding.

One Frisco is bad enough, three in one post - ye gods patsy(!)

fishskis: I do understand -I live in northern California and go into the City less and less. It is still one of my favorite places, but now I really only go when there is some event I want to attend. I used to drive down on a whim just to shop or have lunch. Not so much anymore.

But the dinner reservation issue -- seems just part of the territory. You need to plan ahead for 'destination' restaurants most everywhere, not just in SF.

Excellent point, sf7307.

I would add that insisting on driving in a big city and complaining, then, about a lack of parking seems...unrealistic. And I am surprised that the OP, a former New Yorker, didn't realize that. Look, it's fine to say "I don't like to use public transportation," but the key to happy tourism is adapting, to some extent, to one's surroundings.

Ditto on the restaurant complaint. Yes, it's frustrating, but in big cities, restaurants book up waaaay in advance, and people stand in lines to get into things. You can choose to plan ahead yourself, or you can choose to skip the lines, but the city won't change for you in any case.

I'm sorry to hear your visit was less than pleasant. It's tough for cities to manage their homeless population, especially when the weather is so welcoming.

I will say that we encountered a very aggressive panhandler in San Francisco a few years ago. Our kids were little, he got in DH's face and was yelling obscenities at us. Of course, DH had to respond to him, as though he would teach him a lesson about that kind of language around kids! Oh, yeah, that was worthwhile! I think DH made as big a scene as the disgusting panhandler had.

patsy: It might be a good idea to start your own thread with your hotel location questions so the answers are lost in fishskis thread.

so the answers *aren't lost* in fishskis thread....

Thanks for the replies. I completely agree that SF is one of the most beautiful cities there is; my major point was that my trip was seriously dampened by my encounters with street people, and the general environment around Union Square.

It seems that at least 75% of the hotels in SF are situated in the Union Square area, so I almost always end up there. I do not like staying at Fisherman's Wharf, which is very touristy and family oriented. Next time I will stay on Nob Hill or maybe at the Vitale (Embarcadero), which I like.

Regarding restaurants, of course I understand that popular restaurants book up; but my experience has been that there is usually a handful of truly difficult places in each city, but that you can usually get into some places that you want to go. And yes, eating at 10 can be ok, though I prefer 8 or 9. This was a minor gripe, but it was an important part of why the trip was disappointing. And while it may not be fair to compare SF to Napa or Santa Barbara, I went to every restaurant I wanted to (Bistro Jeanty and Redd in Napa Valley, and Olio e Limone, Arigato, and Los Agaves in SB) with one days's notice or the same day as a walk in with no lines, no problems, and had great experiences at all of them.

Regarding driving and parking in the city: of course I know parking can be difficult in a city; but it seems particularly difficult around the Ferry Building and the Mission. My problem is not that only there is no street parking; it is the difficulty in finding paid parking - a lot or garage- these seem rare in these areas. I am a city person; I understand - but this does not negate this being another thing that added to my general frustration with the city on this trip.

Actually the number of homeless in Los Angeles is much greater than in San Francisco. So, as "downtown" Los Angeles is revived and reborn, you may see a lot of the same "vagrant" infiltration as they move from skid row, a few blocks over to where people are dining and bar-hopping.

Other than that, well, the mantra of the locals seems to be, say whatever you like about the city,just don't call it Frisco!

<<<And yes, eating at 10 can be ok, though I prefer 8 or 9.>>>

So does everyone else.

Difficult to find paid parking in the Ferry Building area? Seriously, you're not even trying!

As for the Mission, yes, it's very very difficult to find parking (there is one large pay parking lot), but it's NOT a tourist area, it's primarily a residential area. Try finding a space on the street on the Upper West Side.

don't call it Cali either!

As far as getting into restaurants, the top names will take more than a call the day of; just the way it is. There are plenty of smaller cafes etc away from heart of the tourist areas that you can basically get into with short wait, in the Castro, Noe Valley, areas of Mission and Dolores.

The homeless are an issue, it does take the shine off the city, but we have been able to walk by unscathed almost all the time.

@Patsy - it may be cheaper to turn the car in when you get into SF and then do a single day rental when you need to go out to visit family. With parking running from $35 upwards of $50, it may be best not to keep the car.

Note to others: If you want a particular dinner time, book well in advance to avoid disappointment.

fishskis: nice report! It's good to hear the negatives sometimes - gives more of the reality of a city.

San Francisco, like any big city, has its good neighborhoods and its bad neighborhoods. Just to the west of Union Square is the Tenderloin, an area long known as one with the highest crime rate (aside from Hunter's Point) in San Francisco.

The Tenderloin is also the most diverse of San Francisco's neighborhoods - high crime, drugs, lots of poor immigrants, plenty of ethnic restaurants, theater district, and some of the best classic buildings in San Francisco (unfortunately very run down) as the Tenderloin used to be inhabited by the rich.

http://www.friendlyneighborhoodguide.com/neighborhoods/17/San-Francisco/The-Tenderloin

That's the Tenderloin. Unless you have reason to be there (e.g., going to a play), this is not an area to go "wandering", even in the daytime.

As zootsi has pointed out, there are other more pleasant areas to wander in San Francisco.


I remember the days when there were no homeless in San Francisco. The homeless problem started with President Reagan's refusal to fund certain social services and many (borderline) mental cases and addicts found themselves out on the street with no/little support. The homeless problem has gotten worse because of other factors, such as, the good weather. With federal monies withdrawn, the burden of caring for the homeless has fallen on the city of San Francisco itself and it has been making a valiant effort for years:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/31/MNGD9M1QV41.DTL

So, please don't judge the City too harshly simply because of the homeless issue.


Finally, Swan Oyster Depot is famous for not taking reservations and for closing its doors (stopping the lines) at 5:30pm. We once stood in line for several hours only to have the line being closed with the couple immediately in front of us! Them be the breaks, but it's a bummer nonetheless.

If you want oysters in San Francisco, try the food court in the basement of the Westfield Shopping Center on Market. There's an oyster bar downstairs - obviously neither famous nor with long waiting lines - but a fresh oyster is a fresh oyster.

That's a gourmet food court with some of the most amazing ethnic foods (we love the Korean stall) - try it the next time you're in San Francisco!


Patsy: I second Bowsprit's suggestion that you try for a hotel either at the Embarcadero or at Fisherman's Wharf.

Patsy - I love Cow Hollow Suites in the Cow Hollow area. Found out about them on this website. Put my parents up there too for their 50th wedding anniversary - they LOVED the place. Parking is free/included. Check them out....

http://www.cowhollowsuites.com/

Wow, I didn't know San Franciscan's were so sensitive in regards to the abbreviation of the city's name.

Thank you to all for the comments on the hotel issue. I will surely look into staying in either the Embarcadero or Fisherman's Wharf area when I visit San Francisco. I also was thinking about returning the car early and renting for one day for the trip up to Point Reyes. I didn't realize the parking was so expensive. I guess it is the same in all big citys, I should have thought about this coming from New York City (NYC). Thanks again everyone.

Yeah - "Frisco" is just one of those nicknames that people can't stand, but for whatever reason, it has amazing staying power.

Former President Reagan didn't start the "homeless problem". They were plenty of bums/winos/addicts there while I was going to law school at UC Hastings in the early 70's - and the Tenderloin has/had been downtrodden for decades. Now it seems they have been allowed to become more aggressive and also bother people in Union Square.

Actually - SF seemingly has become such a liberal bastion that they would rather cut down a tree - oh the horror - than enforce any kind of vagrancy laws.

Progressive is one thing - which I enjoyed while living there (swinging 70's and all) - but the current state of political affairs in SF is just ridiculous.

At times - with their nonsensical decrees/resolutions - the SF Board of Supervisors - not to mention the former mayor - Gavin - (trust baby/lecher) - Newsome - have become the laughing stock of the nation.

Oh yes - not wise to call is "Frisco" - especially when visiting there.

And BTW: Fisherman's wharf is crowded and full of tourists, while the Embarcadero area has a lot going on - but is concrete and high-rises for the most part.

I would suggest you check out staying down by the Marina/Chestnut St./Union St/Cow Hollow area - in one of the Motor Hotels along Lombard (yes - there are some quiet ones - such as the Chelsea Inn http://www.chelseamotorinn.com/ ) - or one of the B & B's such as this one: http://www.unionstreetinn.com/

Just google away.

No political judgments or stereotyping please, especially from people who don't live in SF or haven't done so for years. Or at least take it to the Lounge.

November moon - this is what I posted last week regarding the Frisco thing and the answer from Frank. Interesting. Thought of LoveItaly, she would have known:

I wrote:
Humm, my dad was a native Californian, was in the Navy in WWII, shipping out of San Francisco etc. As kids, I remember him always referring to it as Frisco. Was it a WWII navy thing?

FrankS on Jun 1, 12 at 7:40am
Michelle,
I believe the 'dont call it Frisco' crowd didnt get going until after WW2. Long before the 'dont call it Frisco' crowd was born, natives called it Frisco. Frisco TX was so named because it was on the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway and chose the name to honor San Francisco.

So it may be a very old time phrase that some of us picked up from our parents. I still call a refrigerator an ice box.

Just the facts. Period. And I go back to "Bagdhad by the Bay" every year - sometimes twice or more - so why am I not allowed to comment?

Thanks to fishkis for posting a literate, interesting post about some of the problems he encountered. As a NY'er who has lived here for almost 30 years, I concur w/ some of his observations. But let me amplify his comments.

Whatever goes on w/ the economy is magnified with homeless and destitute people. With our schizophrenic economy here (lots of rich young things moving to SF to work for Google or Yahoo or Genentech, driving up rents and paying ridiculous amounts for apartments, which drives out regular working families and others ) AND a laissez-faire attitude on the part of city government, the homeless situation IS way uglier and more intrusive that it's been in a long time. As one example, I live in the Upper Haight and we never go to GG park without walking to an entrance far away from the main entrance near Kezar stadium. Or if I go downtown - near the Nordstrom and Bloomingdale mall - I am shocked by the roving gangs of toughs, smelly beggars and others that even mall security does nothing about.

that said, i, there are nice hotels in SOMA at several price points, Nob Hill, even the upper Haight that would offer a better SF experience in many ways.

As to taxis, get Taxi Magic on your phone and text your taxi call - works great. We do have a weird taxi problem but I have found w/ taxi magic wait times are almost nil.

Or if you have cash to burn - text Ubercar and be taken where you need to go for about a third to a half over a regular taxi, but you'll be transported in a TownCar or other nice sedan.

And parking is a huge problem here. NO excuses, it just sucks. In the mission you do have the 21st and Bartlett lot for a couple of dollars and hour and it rarely fills except for prime time on Saturday nights.

If you just left from here, this is PRIME tourist time as we have the US Open starting this week, school just got out a couple of weeks ago so I'm not surprised the top restos had no availability. Gary Danko is famous for being booked and not everyone and his brother has heard about eating at the bar so that's not a big help.

And if you drove to get a snack at Tartine you would have waited 1/2 an hour anyway - better to drop of your friend and pick him up in 20 min.

(FYI You wanted to go to some of the most popular places in town, and didn't realize they'd be booked. We never go to tartine anymore because we cant deal with the waits and we live here.)

With all that said, I love SF and won;t live anywhere else just now, but we don't know how to really be a city. I don't think anyone could have predicted the population density we're dealing with and how many services (taxis, restos, apartments etc) would be impacted. I hope you had a fun trip anyway.

Well said mztery.

Clearly no one can stop you from commenting tomsd. I was suggesting that comments about SF politics and opinions about said politics are better suited for the Lounge. But alas this is not to be and this thread will continue with personal postings about what is wrong with SF and of course the homeless problem, which I suppose is inevitable given the nature of OP's "trip report".

I was also "clarifying" what easytraveler had said - that the "homeless problem" had started with Reagan.

And the sad state of affairs in parts of SF cannot just be swept away to the Lounge. Sorry.

I remember our last trip to SF about 10 years ago being unpleasantly surprised at how bad the homeless issue was (aggressiveness, litter, sheer numbers). Sad to hear that it may have gotten even worse.

We have recently returned from our first visit to San Francisco. Our first hotel was in Union Square ,The Chancellor, and we loved it. While there are defintely homeless people I just did what I always do,walk briskly. I am not a very big person , and I never felt threatened. However I work in an inner city neighbourhood in Ontario so I guess I am fairly accustomed to people who fall outside the norms of society. The time I felt a little nervous in San Fran was when we were walking back to our second hotel ,The Hotel De Sol and there was no one around. I figure there is always safety in numbers so Union Square didn't bother me. We much preferred the Union Square location,not because we are shoppers, it just seemed easier to get around from there.

All that said - I feel I need to add, while the homeless population may be annoying and more aggressive than in other places:

• Homeless folks may be aggressive but they rarely actually steal or injure people.
• We don't have many pickpockets like other places
• MOST of the beggars are really OK with just a "not today, sorry" or "Sorry, take care."

Getting away from the political issues - some hotels I've stayed at that are in good areas:

The Laurel - a 3* small hotel in Pacific Heights. Very nice area.

The Kabuki - another 3* hotel, impeccable service. In Japantown. This place is VERY Japaneese, complete with kimonos in the rooms - fun place in a nice neighborhood.

San Remo - a small 2* hotel on the edge of the North Beach area. Very European (shared baths), charming small rooms. Inexpensive.

I don't know why everyone wants to stay near Union Square - a few hours and get Me Out of there!

"I don't know why everyone wants to stay near Union Square".

One reason is that it is frequently recommended on these boards.

Tom: the massive homeless problem in SF did start with Reagan. I wasn't trying to say that SF was some sort of paradise with absolutely NO homeless. UC Hastings is "at the other end" of the Tenderloin, which was a problem area even before Reagan. Nevertheless, there's a direct link between the nonfunding of community care for the mentally ill and the increase in the numbers of the homeless. SF's homeless problems have also been aggravated by the increase in aids and in the increase of single-parent-mother families - aside from the good weather which invites the homeless here because it's easier to sleep in the streets when there's no snow nor ice to deal with.

I've been to many large cities around the world and, God willing, will visit a few more before my arthritis takes over completely. San Francisco is my favorite city, problems and all. No big city is without its problems and it's fine with me that some visitors see the problems more than they see the charm of the city. To each his/her own.

Honestly, Tom, I don't understand why you should have a problem with Handsome Gavin Newsom. At least, everyone knows he's a fourth generation San Franciscan, so there's no fighting over where he was born.

(Sorry, SAB, couldn't resist!)

Maybe we should reciprocate the OP by pointing out the problems in Los Angeles.

<<<the massive homeless problem in SF did start with Reagan>>>

There is no question.

easytraveler: Well before I went to law school - I was familiar with the Tenderloin - east, west, south, north, whichever part you want to highlight. And you do know how it got it's name, right?

Anyhow - I not only commuted through the tenderloin - on the bus system - from Pacific Heights and the Marina - to downtown - but there were some good deals at established restaurants there - such as Original Joes, who made a great frittata type dish - called Joe's Special. http://www.originaljoes.com/ and http://www.sfgate.com/neighborhoods/sf/tenderloin/

And I repeat - before anything former President Reagan did - there were plenty of "homeless" in SF, which included street types such as alcoholics, addicts, people standing in line for their methadone doses, drug and alcohol offenders falling out of other programs such as Delancey Street, etc etc.

What happened is the well described "laizzez faire" - or benign enforcement - attitude adopted by the politicians - encouraged the "homeless" to spread to other parts of SF - after more of them had gravitated there - due to the open arms policies shown by cities such as SF - and also to a lesser degree - here in downtown San Diego.

And yes, I would agree - Gavin Newsome is a poster boy for what is wrong with today's SF.

sf7307: I thought you said you were oblivious to the homeless problem?

"I'm sure I overlook the homeless problem because I live here (I've been told by people on this forum that I'm oblivious to it). "

Rosalyn Carter never got the credit she deserved for making massive headway in the care for mental illnesses in our country.Reagan made a big mess of it.

Thats not to say that all of the homeless are ill. But sick people shouldn't be dropped on a street corner.

OMG: Rosalyn Carter - haven't heard her name in public in a long time. She and the peanut were a pair to draw to.

The hotel suggestion might have gotten lost, so I'll mention that I also always stay at Cow Hollow. It's not "fancy" or pretentious--but it's not expensive, either. The rooms and decor are older--but they're fine for me--and I like the free parking. I love the area and love being able to walk to the beach and watch the tons of people playing with their dogs with the bridge as a stunning backdrop. It's like the Westminster Dog Show at the beach

I'm not a foodie, although I always enjoy the Asian and other ethnic foods in SF. (There's a great Italian deli a couple of blocks from the hotel--but can't remember the name. Also, some good diner-type places for fantastic breakfasts.) My understanding is that it is equally impossible to get prime reservations at the top NYC restaurants unless they are made FAR in advance.

I have never had an issue with homeless or vagrants in SF--and have never felt the least bit unsafe in the Cow Hollow area. I don't have any reason to go to the Union Square area--but I'm sorry to learn it's become so unpleasant.

I certainly hope this post won't scare anyone away from one of my favorite cities in the world. Now you've got me thinking about my upcoming trip this fall. Can't wait!!!

My suggestion: don't even think of staying away from San Francisco; just don't stay at Union Square. Sausalito's a great alternative.

Amen Songdoc: Love the Cow Hollow and adjacetn Union St. area.

You know why they called it Cow Hollow don't you? Years ago - the dairy cows were kept in the area between the Marina and Pacific Heights.

It's a great place to stroll, dine, pop in a winebar, check out a chocolate shop, cheese shops, etc - and here is some more info: http://www.unionstreetshop.com/ and http://www.unionstreetsf.com/ and http://www.unionstreet.com/

and here is a map if it cuts and pastes: http://tinyurl.com/6txesna

BTW - we lived for years on the same block as the Octagon House. Loved it - as it had a cute little park where you could play frisbee, sunbathe, yada yada.

http://www.unionstreetsf.com/Pages/history/cow%20hollow.html

Uno mas: By "the beach" - I assume you mean the Marina Green. Always loved the Marina Green - and used to jog by it daily - out to Ft. Point - and people were always out - flying kites, playing touch football/frisbee, running their dogs, taking in the sun - all kinds of good outdoor stuff.

And the "little" Marina green was my favorite. Sometimes for lunch - would pick up a proscuitto sandwich at a little deli on Chestnut St (back then - it cost no more than a regular ham and cheese) - and go to the "little" Marina Green - and sit on a bench - and look across the bay at Sausalito, Alcatraz, and sometimes - watch windsurfers in the bay - and there were usually ships sailing all about.

<<<(There's a great Italian deli a couple of blocks from the hotel--but can't remember the name>>>

Probably Molinari's. Or maybe Lucca.

Tom, I will reword my statement - I am frankly mostly oblivious to the homeless people on the streets of San Francisco (not that I am oblivious to the existence of the "homeless problem").

and:

"State mental hospitals were taken away by Governor Reagan in the seventies, and federal mental health programs were later taken away by President Reagan in the eighties. Funding was cut for federal institutions which resulted on closures throughout the country. Homelessness in California grew throughout the seventies, a direct result of Reagan closure of mental institutions. I still see the results of that here in California, mentally ill people out on the streets with nowhere to go and noone who cares."

I think the Argonaut is a nice hotel....

I am still waiting to hear about the other part of your trip up and/or down the coast. This is YOUR thread. I'd love to hear about Carmel, Santa Barbara and Napa. Please continue.

Tom: please, one more time - I've never claimed that SF didn't have its share of large city, urban problems.

And I don't mind traipsing down memory lane with you, but before we do that, you should know that a branch of my family still lives in San Francisco, right in the heart of the Tenderloin, right in the same house that they've been in for generations and I'll bet I have more relatives buried upright in Colma than you have. I also have a whole lot of relatives buried horizontally in Hawaii and another whole lot of relatives - also buried horizontally - in the Central Valley - but we digress.

I not only commuted through the tenderloin... When was that? The First Ice Age or the Second?

Seriously, Tom, you should realize that SF, like the rest of the world, has undergone some major changes since the 1970s.

We all have different memories and different impressions of any particular place, but some aspects are historical fact. IMHO, people in government should carefully consider the aftermath of their actions - the homeless that littered the streets of San Francisco after the federal funding was stopped - that was shocking, because we had not seen so many bodies lying in the streets of this beautiful city before.

I am not saying that poverty did not exist before in SF. Have you ever been to the Western Addition? Ever seen the housing projects out there? (I'll give you a hint: they're pre-Reagan)

http://www.friendlyneighborhoodguide.com/neighborhoods/18/San-Francisco/Western-Addition

I gotta go: but "Original Joe's"? Never like it. My sister used to drag me over there from time to time and I'd suffer through their "food". Loved the Astro Burgers in LA, tho.

One last thing: for those who keep recommending those motels along Lombard Street with their free parking - you should also mention that Lombard Street is also Highway 101, very busy and VERY NOISY. There's a reason why the parking is free. Visitors are entitled to get all the facts to help them make a decision suitable for their situation.

I'm a bit skeptical that one has visited San Francisco every year (or every decade for that matter) when one's information/advice about the Bay area is so out of date.

tileaftilly has it right. I'd also like to hear about the rest of the trip.

Others: Please continue your discussion about the social ills of S.F. in the Lounge. It's a good discussion but it doesn't belong here.

We were in San Francisco last year for the third time and the homeless population seemed much more abundant than on our previous visits.

We stayed at the Handlery Hotel in Union Square which abuts the tenderloin area if you walk one block away. Upon check-in, the front desk gave us a map and said when you exit the hotel, walk right don't go left. They even put a big red X by the area to avoid.

Upon leaving the hotel to get to the airport we drove left and we saw not one but two shelters within a two block radius lined around each corner fully with homeless people waiting to get a meal. Years ago we had stayed at the Handlery and it was perfectly fine. This time we did not enjoy San Francisco as much either. It was depressing to see.

Didn't see Bowspirits post. Yes, please continue about the rest of your trip so we can hear the good parts too.

We loved Yountville in the Napa region and the Alexander Valley--it was like a world away from the city of San Francisco yet so close.

We stayed at the Orchard Garden Inn about a year ago and really liked it. It's right by the Chinatown entrance and very convenient. You wouldn't want a car though....ditching it and doing a day rental would be the way to go.

correction Bowsprit's.

sf7: We drove through Western Addition all the time - taking alternate routes out toward the Stick when traffic was bad.

I also played a lot of flag football in the Western Additon - (while going to Hastings) - and also fast pitch softball there before going to Hastings. We were not in the "majority" when doing so.

Sadly - haven't been to the Cherry Blossum festival in Japantown for a long time. http://www.sfjapantown.org/

It makes perfect sense.

I said I was very disappointed with San Francisco this third time around. I saw a rapid decline in areas that were once nicer to visit. I am not comparing a big city to a suburb like Manhattan and Cold Spring.

I wanted to hear more about the OP's trip and since he mentioned Napa, I chimed in that we loved Yountville and the Alexander Valley. Not trying to compare them to the city at all. Just expressing different views and opinions of areas.

Within an hour's drive away from the city, you can be in a quaint village with beautiful scenery. And yes, less visible homeless.

Besides the homeless, we encountered cable car operators who had attitudes too. The first two times we were in San Francisco, we encountered friendly operators who answered people's questions, yelled out the next approaching stop, helped people on and off. This time we saw two very rude operators. For instance, one yelled at all those standing they better put their bodies closer toward the inside of the car because he didn't want to fill out an accident report on them. He could have made a more polite announcement to make sure their bodies were not hanging out so not to get injured. I heard two operators making fun of overseas visitors and not in a polite way--they were not attempting to make a joke--they were just being rude.

We rode a regular city bus from Union Square to get to Golden Gate Park for the Academy of Sciences museum and on the bus come three loud teenagers with a little kid in their charge. They had a radio blasting loud rap music. Every other word out of their mouth was the F word and then one teenager smacked the little kid when he wanted to say something also cursing at him. No one dared say anything either.

These things don't make for fun experiences when visiting a city. They take away from the charm.

But I/we digress. The main point I would like to emphasize is there are other places to stay in SF besides around Union Square - and there are also some - not all for sure - but a few - quiet places to stay in the Lombard St area for people who don't want to stay downtown, or they can get over to Sausalito, or other places that have been suggested.

Peace and out for 2nite.

To those who asked for a little more information on the rest of my trip, here you go...

Firstly, the weather for the duration of my trip could not have been more perfect. As I mentioned previously, I am a driving enthusiast, and the coast drive between San Simeon and Carmel is widely known as one the most scenic/ fun roads in the world: it is. I have done this trip several times, but in my newish German convertible which is built for driving fast around curves, the drive was exhilarating. It took about six hours to get up to Carmel, though it felt like it took about two.

I spent about 24 hours in Carmel, and this was fine; I have been on multiple occasions, and since I was alone, that was enough; Carmel is one of the most "couple-y" places there is. It was a really nice relaxing stopover on the way to SF. I stayed in town in one of the many inns, and it was easy and not expensive. I have stayed at some of the nicer hotels in the area, but I generally prefer staying right in town.

I spent one night in Yountville where I saw a few friends. Next time I visit I will definitely stay at Bardessano, where I had drinks; gorgeous modern architecture and rooms, right in the heart of town. Did a few wine tastings with a friend who is in the business, walked around Healdsburg and Yountville, and had some amazing meals. I have always loved Bistro Jeanty, and it never disappoints; the tomato soup with puff pastry is one of the greatest dishes anywhere. We also went to the town of Napa, where I had not been in a few years, and I was impressed at the recent changes with the addition of new restaurants and lodging. On the way into SF, stopped in Sausalito, parked the car for an hour or so, and just soaked in one of the most beautiful views there is.

On the way back down the coast, the drive was equally pleasurable as on the way up. To those that have not done the drive and are planning a trip, note that going north to south is preferable; the views and vistas are better, and there are many turnouts and spots to stop and take it all in.

I had planned on spending only one night in Santa Barbara on the way back, but I spent two nights because I enjoyed it so much. I have been to Santa Barbara for day trips from LA, but it has been a few years since I spent any nights there. SB is really beautiful, and has a great mix of locals, college students and tourists. Again I was fortunate with the perfect weather; I rented a bike and rode around, had some great walks, a nice workout in my hotel gym, and a lot of just sitting on my ocean front balcony at the end of the day watching the world. As I previously mentioned, I had fantastic (and reasonably priced) meals at every restaurant I went to. SB was vibrant, but not too crowded; there was a fair amount of activity on State St. at night, but walking around, I started to feel a little old (which I guess I am) compared to the college age bar patrons and clubgoers prevalent there.

Though my few days in SF left something to be desired, the trip on the whole was great.

OMG: I just read the post by europ: When I first moved to the City in 1970 - the Cable Car/Grip men were like rock stars - very funny/friendly - and greatly admired. They used to love to banter with tourists and locals alike. I rode the Cal line all the time - and knew several of them by name.

They also belong to the most powerful union in the city - and since that time - not only the cable car guys - but also the bus drivers - sadly - have become insufferable.

And they don't care about keeping order on the bus - but in a way I don't blame them entirely- as you never know when the punks might be packing.

Fishskis--Thanks for the rest of your report. Glad you enjoyed your trip.

One more thing about the cable car operators, they seemed to enjoy leaning on the brakes just to throw the passengers off their balance and then laughing about it. A far cry from the rock stars of old. My first visit was in the 1980's and at that time the operators were still friendly and were careful with operating the machinery. At the rate they are abusing the machinery today, it would be a wonder if the cable cars are still running in another ten years.

The F line trolleys on the other hand were an enjoyable experience. We had a great time spotting the different F line trolleys from various places around the world including Australia. We also enjoyed the F line trolley museum.

I still enjoy identifying the F line trolleys and I see them every single day (my office is on the Embarcadero). I used to commute on the cable car (also the California line, Tom), but I haven't been on one in at least 25 years.

I enjoyed the rest of your report, too, Fishskis.

One of my great thrills was seeing the F line trolley, that is like a boat. It doesn't come out very often, but we saw it on a glorious day last October. #228 is a real head turner for sure:

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/228/

I wasn't able to snap a picture of it, but it is etched, indelibly in my minds' eye.

I am glad to hear that you enjoyed Bistro Jeanty. We had lunch there over ten years ago and loved it. Thank you for the rest of your report.

@debitnm - the old streetcar you refer to was from Brighton England and it is so old they now only bring it out for special occasions, like last October when they were celebrating the anniversary of the vintage streetcars.

Thanks for the rest of your report.

We, too, love Bistro Jeanty.

Hope everyone's satisfied now that they've gotten the good, the bad, and the ugly of your entire trip.

europeannovice: Everything has changed in recent years and not for the better. People are a lot ruder, especially online. Don't know where the problem lies, but people do and say things...well, anyhow, sorry there were situations that made your visit less pleasant than it could have been.

fishskis: Ditto for appreciating the rest of your report.

Thankfully the other parts of your trip went well, aside from the Union Square experience.

Were I/we to move back to the Bay Area - Sausalito - an old "haunt" - would be high on my list of places to consider.

Hey - "commuting" to/from work on a Ferry actually was quite enjoyable

In 1997 (my last trip to S.F.) the homeless problem was clearly out of control .. we couldn't even stand in line for the cable cars without being aggressively hounded for $$ ... it was unbelievable ... and it sounds like it has just gotten worse. Very sad because tourists are just going to stop visiting.
I've never encountered anything like that in New York.

<<<Very sad because tourists are just going to stop visiting>>>

It's been 15 years since you were last here, and trust me, the tourists have not stopped coming.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=8679571

This shows an interesting peek into the Tenderloin that may not have been seen my many --

http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2012/06/19/the-heart-of-the-tenderloin/

Yup - growing weed in the Loin. Some things don't change.

DRIVE to the Mission for a snack at Tartine? You could have taken a cab, and certainly you could have taken one back - that stretch of 18th street is not cab-less by far. Walking would have ok, too - I walk from downtown to the Mission all the time. But wait....I guess the Mission would have been one of those unsafe neighborhoods.

It's a good thing you didn't make it to Tartine. There's a line all day, every day. It would have just been another bummer for you.

Holy Cow!

Where you been, dovima?

I used to so look forward to your posts on SF, especially the restaurant recommendations!

Welcome back!

San Francisco's food banks serve 70,000 meals every day, an enormous undertaking and they deserve a lot of credit. Complaining about a few hundred people out and about panhandling seems odd. Would you prefer 70,000 hungry people looking for a bite to eat?

Actually, Dovima, I am not sure I understand your seemingly hostile attitude, but let me clarify a few things since you do not know me:

I love Tartine. I have been there many times, and while there is usually a line, it moves quickly. Tartine is far from a bummer for me, in fact, I love it. But thank you for acting like you know me. Next time you are there be sure to try the croque monsieurs, probably the best version anywhere.

I have often walked and cabbed to Tartine. I am a walker. I often walk as much as ten miles in a day in new York or Paris or London or San Francisco. On this particular day, I was driving to multiple destinations with someone, and Tartine was one of our desired stops.

Regarding your sarcastic comment about the Mission being unsafe, To get from the Mission to Union Square, there are unpleasant and potentially unsafe areas, namely in the Tenderloin. I am from New York, and travel all over to many places, including some considered dangerous by others. Every single friend and hotel concierge I have spoken to about walking downtown has cautioned me about certain parts of the Tenderloin, particularly at night or alone.

To Clarkgriswold: I do not know what the food bank situation is in San Francisco, but it certainly seems commendable that so many hungry people are being fed. That does not change the fact that the constant barrage from aggressive panhandlers and mentally troubled people, particularly in and around Union Square and Tenderloin, is unpleasant and threatening. I do not understand why you would think it odd that it bothers me and affects my desire to spend time in one of the greatest cities there is. It would strike me as odd if it did not bother someone.

I live in San Francisco, and last night we were in the Civic Center area - although they were not threatening at all, the number of homeless people on the street and in the Muni station was astonishing even to me - the only place I've been surprised more by the number of homeless people is on State Street in Santa Barbara.

We stayed in Union Square for three nights a few months ago. I, too, was bothered by the number of aggressive panhandlers. We were followed and yelled at every single time we walked a few blocks.

My sisters live in the Bay Area, and came in to meet us for dinner in Union Square. They both said they rarely come to that neighborhood, and they were also surprised at the rough treatment they received on the street. One sister was walking with my DH to her car after dinner, and a beggar kept harassing them. She finally turned around and gave him her leftover box, and he cursed at her.

I also noticed we did not see any sign of police patrolling the neighborhood. Not on foot, in cars, on motorcycles or horses, like our city does. It is a mistake to let people be harassed on the street.

Peaceout: there are definitely police patrolling the streets - especially to hand out traffic tickets for minor infractions.

"To get from the Mission to Union Square, there are unpleasant and potentially unsafe areas, namely in the Tenderloin."

Why on earth would anyone have to walk through or close to the Tenderloin to go from Union Square to the Mission, or vice versa? I mean really, just look at the map! Something about your comment just doesn't add up. You seem to be a little fixated on a neighorhood that is easily avoided.

You could also: 1) Take BART to 16th and Mission and walk up to Tartine or 2) Take the F line to where Valencia meets Market and walk there. But wait - then you'd have to walk past 16th street, unsavory as it is.

Gee, thanks so much on the croque monsieurs recommendation!

Over and out.

To quote Dovima: "Why on earth would anyone have to walk through or close to the Tenderloin to go from Union Square to the Mission, or vice versa? I mean really, just look at the map!"

Fantastic advice. On Google maps, input pedestrian directions from the Prescott Hotel to Tartine, and you will see a route that takes you right through the Tenderloin, and then to Market Street, which can be quite unpleasant at night as well. Something about your comment just doesn't add up; you seem fixated on this.

I am not a local, and I am not an expert on walking routes in your city; nor do I know the exact technical boundaries of the Tenderloin. I do know, however, that between the Union Square area and the Mission are some unpleasant and potentially threatening, possibly unsafe areas; this is a fact that every hotel concierge I have spoken to about this has confirmed and/ or cautioned me to avoid.

Thank you again for the hostility and sarcasm.