Black-White Interracial Couple relocating

I'm not qualified to comment on the racial aspect of your question. My only comment is that if Phoenix has too much heat and crime, Las Vegas will, also. Unless you are coming for the glitter, you would have the same objections as you have to Phoenix.

I like living on the desert about 100 miles north of Las Vegas but it is certainly hot for many months of the year.

An area I have never lived in but that several of my friends like a lot is Alburquerque/Santa Fe/Taos.

I may be wrong, but generally (I emphasize GENERALLY) I think the farther west you go, the more easy it would be to fit in.

That's a generalization that I don't think holds up very well -- too many variables.

Another factor is to look beyond the basic numbers: some cities look like they have a nice mix when you look at the overall numbers, but when you break them down some are still more segregated than others.

Best of luck and where ever you choose, try not to compare your new city to marvelous San Diego.

Of all your picks, I'd suggest Sacramento. I've been to Portland..it's very WHITE and the surrounds are frightening.

Brockton MA is very interracial and you wouldn't get a second look - actually the same could be said of Boston too. That said, I also have spent time in Colorado Springs which is a very nice place to live. Either way - you have to contend with winter and it's not an easy winter in either place. Good luck in your search!

As Dorgal points out, there are several neighborhoods and suburbs of Boston that are diverse; Brockton is one of the more affordable in general. For a more upscale town, but still a bargain compared to SD, try Milton, which borders the southern edge of Boston itself and has a minority population of about 25% as well as excellent access to transportation (public and highways) and brand-new schools. The Asian/white couple thta my daughtre babysits for have never encountered problems (or "stares") and neither have their kids.

Many of the upscale suburbs here have significant populations of Asians who have come to the area for college and stayed; my impression is that most of them marry caucasians.

The nearby city of Quincy (MA) has a significant and growing Asian population (at least 25%), but as repete warned, it's not a situation where a mixed couple would fit in: it's overflow, and folks moving up, from Chinatown.

LOL, after I posted I paid more attention to your title, rather than your comment about reading the asian-white thread. So I'll supplement my comments about Milton: It's 20% black, mostly middle-class or upper, and the interracial couple next door to me, and their kids, don't seem to have had any problems.

Portsmouth,NH
Portland,ME
Northampton,MA
Burlington,VT
Boston/Metro and suburbs
Providence,R.I.
It's hardly inexpensive to live in New England, BUT the tolerance here for intolerance is pretty low. The more university or coastal the town, the generally also the more sophisticated and liveable. You wouldn't get a first (or second) glance, for example, in Portsmouth...

I am a so called 'white' person who is married to a person from Asia, with children. I find it quite staggering that you are even having to ask this question.

I'm originally from the UK and have lived in many countries throughout the world, (although not the US) and this issue has never cropped up.

We've lived in Germany for the last 7 years and I, nor my wife have never heard a comment nor ever been stared at by anyone.

We always hear of how the US is so multi-racial and the great freedoms people enjoy there but this thread appears to dispel these notions.

Geordie

If you've eliminated Seattle b/c of weather, you should eliminate Portland for the same reason. Also, Las Vegas and San Antonio are very hot.

I wonder about east v. west. I just read a story about a woman in an interracial relationshihp. She related how she never got a second glance in LA, but in Manhattan she always felt disapproving glances and often heard rude remarks.

I wouldn't relocate anywhere without checking out the area first.

Geordie,
I am in an interracial marriage. We have lived in Europe and the US (East coast and Midwest).

My experience is that the US is much more uptight about the interracial thing than they like to admit.

It is a topic of discussion in the US, whereas in Europe no one cared at all.

Atlanta would be a great choice for you.

I live in So Cal and my best friends are an interracial couple with a baby. Don't really notice any problems, but I understand getting priced out of this area.

Have you thought about college towns? Other than California, living in Columbia, MO was the most tolerant place I've ever lived. I'm sure there are even better, prettier, more lively choices. Just an idea.

Bunchargum??????????? Travdis???????

Queenie

It would appear that your right, I even think the way the OP asks the questions i.e they won't stick out or be stared at, is being far too polite.

What the OP should ask is where can I live where racism is least likely to occur and I can get on with my life in peace.

Geordie

I live in a suburb of Portland and know several interracial families. It is not a big deal here, and I have never even thought about it until reading this post. However, if you have nixed Seattle due to grey and rain then you should know that Portland is similar.

My husband and I (hispanic and white) have never had any issues in California. We both have pretty mixed families and no one has had any problems around here.

On the east coast I'd recommend the washington DC area and probably Columbia MD and Reston VA. These areas are always racially friendly.

I'm just not certain that you would want to leave San Diego if you have great jobs, a good racial environment, and a home. Homes here in the DC area are also quite pricey and I'm not certain you'd find things really better - perhaps similar but not necessarily better.

Sometimes the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence and it really isn't.

Anyone who felt uncomfortable as an interracial couple in Manhattan is IMHO imagining things. This is one of the most diverse cities in the county. And in most places interracial, intercultural and same sex couples are quite common and perfectly well accepted. (I would say there are several such couples among my friends - but it sounds so odd - why are we even discucssing this?)

(There are unfortuntely some areas in the outer boroughs that still seem to live in the stone age - they hate not interracial couples but everyone who isn;t exactly them - but there are some ignorant bigots everywhere - and there would be no reason to even visit those areas.)

However, most of NYC is going to be out of your price range - unless you head for the far suburbs - where you would also be accepted.

You could never convince me to live in Tampa, racial tolerance notwithstanding. Eight months of summer is way too much.

You can forget interacial in DC.

My gay boyfriend was working in DC walking back to his hotel holding hands with his boyfreind and got stoned by a group of 20 or so young black kids.

I'd say that was an example of urban ignorance. Being yelled "faggot go home" and "we don't want your $hit around here" while being pelted with rocks doesn't lead to open minds.

I didn't notice DC on the list. Lord knows a white person would ever do those things, right?

I'd like to let you know that you will be very welcome in Colorado Springs. Interracial marriages are just not that big a deal here. I know numerous Hispanic-White, Black-White, Asian-White, Hispanic-Black, etc. etc. couples here. My husband was an Air Force officer and is now in the technical professional realm - he's had bosses who were from everywhere in the world and of various skin colors. I think that you would be comfortable working here.

I don't doubt that there are always opportunities for bigotry to present themselves but it does not seem to be the norm. We live just outside Colorado Springs and I know that our sub-division (mostly $250K-ish homes) is also ethnically diverse.

One incident, horrible as it is, does not a pattern make. If the OP were to eliminate any area that had at least one such disgusting incident of bigotry -- be it racial or homophobic, they'd sadly end up on Mars.

The DC area, at where I am, is a fine place for a mixed family. I live here -- and I am part of one. But I also am realistic to know that you can tun into haters anywhere.

One incident, horrible as it is, does not a pattern make. If the OP were to eliminate any area that had at least one such disgusting incident of bigotry -- be it racial or homophobic, they'd sadly end up on Mars.

The DC area, at least where I am, is a fine place for a mixed family. I live here -- and I am part of one. But I also am realistic to know that you can tun into haters anywhere.

I hate to say it, but anybody with a personal experience of interracial relationships or marriage is well aware that anywhere you go, there will be some who will stop and stare, point fingers, or worse. I realize you're looking for a place where those things will be at a minimum, but some comments here seem to suggest there is some wonderful utopia where NO ONE notices skin color. That is a dream world only.

That said, I think Portland gets my vote. The real conservatives there are far too busy gawking and pointing at the tatooed and pierced "hippies" to notice the interracial couples -- unless they also happen to be pierced and tattooed.

I have never seen anyone point fingers at my husband and I. I can't remember anyone ever stopping and staring either.

repete, it was something like 20 kids not one or two. Kids pick this behavior up somewhere they just don't develop it themselves.

Fodors folks, don't kid yourselves into thinking that the interracial problem doesn't exist. It shouldn't, but it does. Therefore I think benbow made a sensible request for our best advice. I have lived in, or done considerable business in, every sector of our country. I'd first tell you where NOT to live:
-Anywhere in the southeast except Miami.
-Austin or anywhere in Texas.
-Any small town almost anywhere in the country.

Having said that, and I have friends and business associates with mixed marriages, I would advise you to stick to larger cities and look for some nice urban townhouses. Since you listed some potential choices, my suggestion is that Portland, Sacramento, or most of the Colorado cities would be your best bet. Good luck.

Sacramento is a very tolerant city, clearly evidenced by the large number of inter-racial couples (black, hispanic, asian and white), as well as the sizeable gay population that reside here. That said, its understandable, but a shame you have to leave a beautiful spot like San Diego to afford a house.

Everywhere Wayne?




(sorry, I couldn't resist!)

GoTravel:
It was one incident. And one horrible pack-mentality incident can happen anywhere, unless someone knows of a place where it can't.

I have years of experience here and have lived in other places mentioned, including California and Seattle, and am basing my views/comparisons a span of time in day-to-day living.

Drawing an area for one incident seems narrow minded to me. Homophobia is a national blight.

FYI, if one incident is a deal-breaker then here is a partial list of attacks on churches that belong to a gay spirituality group. It was compiled by a Canadian tolerance organization:

Partial, Representative List of Attacks:
--Sacramento, CA: church building arsoned; $600,000 in damages
--New Orleans, LA: a fire killed more than 30 persons, including the church's pastor.
--Los Angeles CA: UFMCC's "Mother Church" in Los Angeles arsoned; $90,000 damages.
--San Francisco CA: worship facility arsoned; $100,000 in damages. Threats to the pastor's life were scrawled on the church door.
--Texas: A UFMCC congregation in Texas was victimized by a hate campaign of threats by the KKK
--St.Petersburg, FL: church facility arsoned;$34,000 in damages.
--Santa Monica CA: Received a hate-filled telephone threat. Followed up with a fire; 20,000 in damages
--Richmond VA: Church's stained glass windows smashed by vandals
--Bradenton, FL: Repeatedly desecrated by spray-painted swastikas.

Hello kbenbow. I live in Tampa where African-American professionals tend to live in the suburbs, very happily. My husband works for one of the larger employers in the area and they increasingly find that racial-types move to the suburb instead of the older established neighborhoods. Those older neighborhoods are generally more affluent but old money is no longer clustered in one spot as so many people in the last 15 years have moved into these urban cores, with the trend toward greater density, and into the suburbs where you can get more home for your money. The racial problems still exist but it's mostly a case of racial tension in "the projects" with the poor clashing with the police. Like most major cities, Tampa is increasingly trying to get rid of the projects and move the needy into mixed-income housing instead of projects -- this seems to be happening to a lesser degree in St. Petersburg. I was in downtown St. Pete recently where there was a "First Friday" event with jazz bands and beer sales and I was pleasantly surprised to see a mixed-race crowd. That city has always had many minorities living close to downtown and now that their downtown is being redeveloped the minorities are choosing to stay in their homes and enjoy the new amenities.

Those are my own observations -- very few African-Americans live along the beach. Orlando is also very interracial.

Having said all that let me add that there is undoubtedly substantially less interracial mixing here than in major cities like NY, DC, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.

Wow, very helpful you all have been. I just posted this late last night, and there must be at least 20 threads. I should mention we moved here from Nashua, NH which is about 40 minutes north of Boston. I definately don't want to head back that way because of the snow. But, I did hear somewhere that Colorado -YES- is cold but definately not near the amount of snow that overstays its welcome in NH. Again, thanks for the honesty. Remember, we are black/white couple not Asian/white.

Chicago is a wonderful, open, progressive city, as is Madison, WI. Madison in particular is very progressive. An interracial couple we're friends with is considering moving to Atlanta. Thoughts on that?

Good luck and keep us posted!

I live just south of Atlanta. Y'all come here, y'hear? You'll be completely welcome.The weather is wonderful.Fun day or weekend trips are plentiful. And the cost of living (especially in my little town) is sooooo much better than what you describe.

I would not look at the southeast. It still has the segregated mentality. I would stick to the bigger cities/suburbs because you have more open minded people. My sister in law's sister is hispanic and she married a black man. She had to purchase their home in Philadelphia area because when he came along, the realtors only showed them lower income areas. They both have good jobs and were looking at a higher income neighborhood. So, there is predjudice everywhere unfortunately. I would say California is a pretty hip state. I would look for a liberal city.

Although Chicago has a terrible history, at the present time you would not be different than anyone else.

My town, SW of Chicago- Tinley Park, has many interracial families. And you could get a mansion for $450,000. Of course you are not going to get warm weather all year long.

And in my part of town there are so many people with outside of USA origins plus every combination of marriage partners or partners that you would never think about this issue.

I am actually a minority in my sub-division because I am not married and I am entirely of immigrant European origin. We have many Asian, Black, Indian, Middle East families and many mixtures of all of the above.

One of the suburbs right near me actually advertises as the place where they are trying to maintain a 50/50 balance- Park Forest, IL. And they have for about 20 years now. But I like my area better as it is more nature, a beautiful place with good schools and great parks/ park programs. Chicago is about 25 miles away. The people are community minded, much more than many other places which you might be able to label suburban.

The downside is traffic. IN TOWN as well as out. Everyone has tended to find us in the last 15 years.

Denver and the surrounding area would probably be a good choice as others have mentioned. I've got family and friends there in interracial marriages with bi-racial kids and no one has any trouble. Colorado Springs is more conservative christian than the other areas around there, so sometimes religion can be an issue, but race doesn't seem to be.

As for the weather, this wimpy Californian has managed to survive some time there in the winter in relative comfort, so I have no doubt that you would be fine. The only thing that really struck me about the weather is the lack of humidity. It is really dry there. The worst weather I experienced in Denver was in June - thunderstorm with hail like I couldn't believe.

girlonthego, you say, "I would not look at the southeast. It still has the segregated mentality."

THAT IS A LOAD OF CRAP! You have racism everywhere. If you did your research, you would find there has been a huge number of African-Americans and mixed families moving back to the Southeast over the last couple of decades, more than to any other part of the country. Gee, I wonder why!

I would agree with Colorado Springs and maybe Denver.

Unless things have changed drastically in the past few years, I would stay clear out of any other little town in Colorado.

I have lived in the midwest my entire life. For the past 35 years, in Iowa City, a town dominated by the University of Iowa. I think an interracial couple should either look at a large city or a university setting. I'd certainly second Madison, Wisconsin.

One of my kids lived in Atlanta for a couple years. I enjoyed visiting. But, outside of the city, I'm not sure. I met a woman a few years ago (a professional woman, married to another professional) who lived about an hour south of Atlanta. She told me in all seriousness "that until I got on the internet and met ya'all, I didn't know it was ok to be friends with a Yankee". True story. I was astonished.

I haven't had time to read through all the posts but I'll just add that if you can stand the heat I think Las Vegas would be fine. The housing market is getting a little crazy here though. Expect to pay about 250k+ for a starter home, or a home in an older neighborhood.

Good luck to you

JeanH, one ignorant friend of yours does not speak for a whole section of this country! There are bigots everywhere and good people everywhere.

We just moved from suburban Maryland (I worked in the previously mentioned Columbia, in fact, and we lived in Montgomery County, MD -- both very diverse and accepting). It DOESN'T fit your requirements for affordable housing however, as $500K is considered a bargain.

You probably will be most comfortable in big cities or in "university" towns, and based on my travels I think more west than east. Austin TX is a fantastic town and would be my first pick of the list you first provided. It is beautiful, has a decent year-round climate, and a lot to do, both work-wise and entertainment-wise.

leelane: I don't want to get into a war with you, BUT racism is everywhere. In small towns in the south, people are not tolerant of lots of things outside their cookie-cutter lifestyles. That is why I still recommend being near a large city with more liberal views. The south east is not a liberal part of the country. There is not a lot of tolerance for differences whether they are race, religion (the north/south thing, etc).
Just my 2 cents from someone who lives here.....

girlonthego, I also live in the Southeast, and you are wrong. I have lived in several areas of the U.S., and Southern small towns have no more racism than New England small towns or Maryland small towns. Comments like yours do so much damage, and you are simply wrong.

You are missing the point, racism is everywhere especially in small towns. Whether it be in the south east or the north east. I agree with you.
That is why I am saying live near a large city with liberal views. The small town I live in is fairly modern, but I live ten minutes from total hicksville with total hicksville views......
I have lived in the northeast and the southeast and I guess we don't live in the same towns.
I am not here to argue all night with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.
KBenbow, I wish you good luck in finding your new home.

girlonthego, you SAID above, "I would not look at the southeast. It still has the segregated mentality." How much more insulting can you be to a whole region of the country? That is a ludicrous and unfair statement in this day and age.

Well if you are not excluding cold areas then come to the Chicago area. No sweat. No pun intended. As for the discussion above I think generalizing can in some cases get one in trouble. Racism involves stereotyping and generalizing at it core. Be more specific about the area. Finally a young African-American male who we basically helped rear told us once about his trip to visit friends in NC. I do not remember the specific town name there. I do remember his opinion of the area inre to racial issue and sadly it was segregational.

girlonthego, I'm sure you speak with great authority about your suburb of Richmond Va. But to take that experience and elevate it to a sweeping (and wrong headed) generalization about an entire region of the country is silly.

I agree that cities have more diverse populations and tend to be more politically liberal. But in the grand scheme of things, Richmond is not and will likely never be a bastion of liberalism.

jacketwatch, You know someone who went somewhere in NC and reported it was segregational. While you clearly hold this young man's opinions in high regard, I'm not sure what your point is in relating the story.

And you probably never will.

i'm half of an interracial couple, my husband is hispanic and i think that you find racism anywhere. last week in san francisco someone said something to me and you would think that would be such a liberal city it wouldn't happen there. so i don't know if you can make generalizations about city vs small town and we've had a few incidents over the years and we live in sacramento so california isn't always so open minded either

I see that there were a lot of responses. I am white and my wife is black. I have an opportunity to get a great job located in Smyrna, GA. We are interested in a house close to Marietta Georgia in the 30066 zip code area. We currently live in Los Angeles and have never had a problem. I remember having some stares in Tennessee a few years back but didn't get much stares when we were in Atlanta. Does anyone know specifically how open East Cobb County is concerning interracial marriage. We also have two kids. I want to be sure we don't make a bad decision by moving out to a place that may be intolerant.

Hey Cramj,

I am the one that posted this thread. Glad to hear Atlanta was ok. Did you just visit Atlanta or did you actually live there? Give me details about area. Likes/Dislikes. Thanks.

This is a sensative issue, but we all must realize that there are various types of interracial couples. To those who are Latino-White or Asian-White, it's hard not to realize that there will be far less "staring" or "bigotry" than to those Black-White couples. Just the way it is. Many whites don't even consider Latinos a different race -- but perceive them primarily as people who speak a different language. Here in Florida where there are many, many Latinos, there is rarely a notice of mixed couples, but I have to say that I sure see heads turn when a Black-White couple walks by, particularly with a baby. Sad, but true.

Its funny everybody thinks all Americans have a problem with interracial marriages. I have no problem whatsoever and don't stare at people who are in that situation. However, I am more liberal in my thinking. Another point, about the D.C. instance, I don't believe a heterosexual interracial couple would have the same problem as a homosexual couple. Heterosexual relationships are way accepted, no matter what the races are, than a homosexual couple. Again, I'm more liberal and don't care about other people's choices but society in general likes everyone to reproduce from marriage.

cramj- The term "East Cobb" is usually used to refer to the zip codes of 30067 and 30068. Many families relocate to those zip codes because they have very good public schools. However, those neighborhoods tend to be white, middle to upper middle class and quite homogeneous. You will find more diversity in the rest of Marietta including 30066.

If you are going to work in Smyrna, you want to live west of 75 to minimize your commute time. There aren't many routes from the east side of 75 to Smyrna so those roads that take you from one side of the county to the other are traffic clogged.

You should look for housing in the Smyrna/Mableton area. The area used to be a sleepy community of old 1950s ranches. In the last 5 years, the area has seen tremendous redevelopment as developers have bought up the older neighborhoods and razed them for new construction. The community is more diverse with blacks, whites, hispanics, and Indian families. New restaurants and shopping have opened, and there's a great bike/walking/jogging trail that runs from that area to Alabama. The schools may have lower test scores than "East Cobb" but you will find the student bodies to be much more diverse.

Hope this helps.

I am kind of in the same situation. I am a white woman married to a black man with 2 interracial children. Hubby is in the navy and is being transferred to Gulfport MS in May 2006. I know that some areas of the south are still stuck in the past with regards to races mixed. Has anyone been to the gulf coast area before and if so, what did they notice or see when there? Also any good ideas on where to look for a place to live without fearing for our lives because of who we are and who we love? Any advise would be helpful. Oh and we are coming from Virginia Beach and have had no problems here. Thanks a whole lot!

Cramj, my former roommate teaches in East Cobb. It is almost entirely white. She only has two African-American students in her class. In looking at scores, the schools there are very good. I honestly don't think you'd have a problem there.

I lived in Smyrna off Powers Ferry Road from 1998 to 2003. It's pretty racially diverse. There are tons of new homes being built over near the East West connector in the Mableton area. At the same time, the schools aren't quite as good as East Cobb. But I'd rate them higher than a lot of other schools in the metro area.

I've lived here nearly all of my life and in the 70s, maybe even the early 80s, you may have attracted stares as an interacial couple. But it is everywhere now and it is very much accepted. The only places in Georgia that I think are holdovers to that kind of racism are extremely rural areas a long way from the Atlanta metro.

Just my two cents...

Thanks very much for the info on Atlanta. This really helps!!

cramj,
The info re: East Cobb is correct. I am a black woman married to a white man and I grew up in the 30068 zip. Although my high school (Walton) was and is tops in the nation, I struggled being one of about 5 or 6 blacks in a school of over 2000.
One of my classmates adopted a black son and moved out of the 30067 & 30068 zips up to Cherokee County 30152 for more diversity. The commute to downtown, though, could be murderous.
My parents who are still in the 30068 zip (after 28 years) want us (we have a daughter) to move back to GA. But due to my experiences, for me, it is out of the question at this time. But I do accept that areas around Smyrna up to Cherokee County (West of I-75) have changed, considerably. Be extremely thorough in your research of the areas, though.
And GOOD LUCK!
By the way, we are in the metropolitan DC area (Alexandria), and not only do we have a number of interracial couples as friends, I have not received a second look, ever (after 5 years), from anyone here... if anyone is curious. Though, it is expensive.

Cramj,

I agree with padams and a few others that Smyrna/East West Connector area is an area on the rise. They are building BEAUTIFUL homes in that area, as well as Mableton, Powder Springs and Hiram which is about 11 miles from Austell Road and the East/West Connector. There's lots of shopping, restaurants, etc. You won't be disappointed. Also the housing prices are relatively low compared to other areas.

So, I am white and my boyfriend black. We lived in Brooklyn which was no problem. We relocated to Atlanta, AND BOY WHAT A MISTAKE!!! There aren't enough jobs and when we go out in public I am afraid he will end up punching someone for looking at us crazy!!

I am going to repost. We do actually live in Smyrna and we have a problem going to Wal-mart!!! Wish I would have never come here!!! I am orginally from Kansas and I have never had this problem. I have also lived in Savannah and it wasn't this BAD!!!

Always interesting when a thread gets resurrected after 6 years.

Would love for the OP to come back and bring things up to date.

Colorado Springs is quite conservative, so if considering Colorado, Denver would be a better fit or Boulder.

HappyTrvlr: " . . . so if considering Colorado, . . ."

The OP posted (and presumably made their decision) six years ago and has not been back on the forums since. This was topped by someone who registered this morning to vent about Georgia.

troll

A troll for sure.

Not sure I'd assume a troll. If you google "interracial couple relocating" this thread from 2005 comes up on page one.

I was curious how someone could even find this thread their first time out and that would seem to explain it.

Troll. And on NPR today there was a feature about Atlanta being the very open to black community it is known to be. I do NOT believe this garbage for one minute.

This thread is old, the original couple is now the same color.

One thing that people who complain about non-acceptance seem to ignore is the possibility that one or both of them are just plain obnoxious people. Non unlike a guy I know is loud, obscene, and generally obnoxious. He insists people shun him because he's gay. Nope. They shun him because he's an obnoxious creep.
It's hard to imagine total strangers looking at an interracial couple in Atlanta "crazy" -- how could those strangers get through their day without giving crazy stares all the times. Surely there is something missing from stephzim's post -- like the reason people so often look at them crazy -- surely it is something more than simply being black and white.

Patrick, your post reminds of a family member of my late husband's. She is married to a man who is ethnic Mexican. He is 3rd generation, born and raised in CA. They live in CA. He is constantly having issues with people as he knows it is because he and his wife are a "mixed couple". He has never had a clue that it is his snarky and know it all attitude that causes the problems of course. And he long ago convinced his wife that he is correct and that the public is racist and picking on him. One example is that they went to a restaurant at a luxery resort for lunch. The dress code is no shorts, flipflops etc. Well guess what he wore? They had a reservation but they were not seated. Of course he "knew why", sigh.