Bob Brown

In recent weeks there have been several threads giving airlines in the Unites States the merry devil. In my opinion they deserve it. The whole industry seems wed to the concept that the customer is not worth the effort and deserves to be packed into tourist class like sardines in a can or cows in truck headed for the terminal point.

On the brighter side, I just flew round trip from Atlanta to Calgary on Air Canada. Granted, my sample of Air Canada flights is a little restricted, but the seating on Air Canada flights seemed much better than on any domestic carrier I have flown. Going out we flew on the Airbus type of aircraft. At 6'1" and 185 pounds I had ample leg toom.
Coming back, we had a Boeing 767-200 between Calgary and Toronto. Seating was decent.
Service was polite and adequate, even in "hospitality class". Speaking of hospitality, that is certainly something the US carriers seem to have lost in the shuffle.
I don't look forward to my next flight using domestic MOO MOO class. Too bad my parents did not leave me $2 million so I can fly first class every time.
Seriously, if I were flying from Atlanta to Seattle, I would consider taking Air Canada even the route takes me via Toronto and forces me to go through customs twice.

Edward

Fellow travellers,

I can vouch for the veracity of the assertion that most US airlines are second class enterprises. However, after having flown from LAX to JFK, I feel I can safely say that TWA is an exception to that rule. It is at least a third or fourth class carrier and had me fearing for my life and luggage.
The fun all began at LAX, when the slightly antiqued (read decrepit) 767 which had been assigned to the flight was delayed for a half hour at the gate due to mechanical difficult. It is not the most confidence inspiring scene to watch the engine covering of the plane that is supposed to carry you 3000 miles being taken off and having mechanics swarm over the engine to fix whatever malefactor component is responsible.
This, however, was only the tip of the wing so to speak. The landing at JFK was an atrocious example of how not to land a plane (a problem which I would later find, afflicted more than one TWA pilot). It seems the captain couldn't line the plane up right with the runway and so on the approach we were veering from side to side up until the very last minute. Upon landing we hit the runway HARD. The impact was so great that the bulkheads were rattling (not too reassuring) In all my experiences flying, I've never felt anything like that. However, to top that off, the plane then skidded and careened to the side only narrowly staying on the tarmac. I've experienced minor course variance upon landing before, but this had me fearing for my personal safety.
TWA's JFK terminal is a laughably ill maintained homage to futuristic 60s architecture. The staff there isn't much better. Before the flight back, I asked the gate agent the normal question about overbooking and bumping, only to be greeted by a response which would have been appropriate for an international terrorist. The agent snarled that TWA does not overbook or bump passengers (I'm sure some of you out there can state differently). He may have perceived that I was a cheapskate, but since when is that a crime? If I wasn't, I wouldn't have been flying TWA.
The flight back was on a slightly better maintained 757, but just as my confidence began to be restored, we began to approach LAX. Landing must be the bane of TWA pilots, because this one was almost as bad as the flight to New York. The pilot powered down the engines for the approach path, but something wasn't quite right, and the plane immediately dropped straight down rather noticeably. We were put into a holding pattern, and for some reason, while turning the pilot didn't give the plane enough thrust, and the plane slid into the turn, towards the ground (this manuever is often done by fighter planes to lose altitude, but is not recommended for commercial airliners). The landing itself wasn't nearly as bad as the first one but, I'm sure the FAA would have had something to say about the taxiing into the terminal when our wing narrowly missed clipping the tail of a departing jet.
The baggage claim at LAX is an amusing tale in and of itself. It seems that after the first few bags were unloaded (mine included, thankfully), the system broke down. After a five minute inspection, the baggage handler climbed up the chute of the now malfuctioning conveyer belt, and to the great chagrin and consternation of the passengers waiting below, began to hurl the luggage, sending it tumbling down the ramp.
In brief, fly foreign airlines before domestic ones, and when flying domestic, fly with a reputable outfit such as United, Delta, or American. However, I do have the last laugh in this case. The tickets that I bought were highly discounted via the ex-president of TWA, who now operates a travel website.

Edward

Bob Brown

A friend of mine who travels internationally a lot tells stories like Edwards' TWA story. His tales concern mainly Russian and Bulgarian airlines. He swears on a Bulgarian flight he rode next to a pig and one engine conked out in flight.

Come to think of it, the pig might be the best choice. I never had a problem with pigs on my uncle's farm. It was the boorish hogs that gave me trouble.

Edward

Well, your friend has me beat on that one. I've never flown with pigs or boars, though in the past I've had fellow passengers who were boors and bores. As for the Russian and other Eastern European airlines, they seem to be fly at your own risk, as their less than desirable qualities have been relatively well detailed by the media. What frightens me is the seeming ineptitude of the airline staff of TWA, a major US airline. I was expecting the typical cattle class treatment, and brought along a box lunch and Hemingway novel to ward of some of the unpleasantries. I was not, however, expecting barnstorming pilots which I seem to have gotten.

JoanieB

I've read several seething commentaries in this (and other) travel forums about how 'this carrier is the worst possible excuse for an airline' or about old planes, bad food, rude personnel, etc.
My comments: #1: if you travel frequently, you're going to have a bad experience every now and then no matter which carrier you fly. Delayed flights, lost bags, windy landings, etc. etc.
CANNOT be avoided on every flight. Does your car ever get a flat, develop a rattle, fade with age? Does that mean the manufacturer produces nothing but garbage?
#2: There's a labor shortage in this country. Staff at luxury hotels, airlines, travel agencies, restaurants, etc. are often less well trained, less experienced, and less polished than many longtime travelers are used to. Get used to it. It ain't gonna change anytime soon. Don't let it catch you so much by surprise and it won't upset you so much. You know, these people aren't making $25 an hour for serving your snack tray or processing your ticket. It's not what it used to be. But yammering about it isn't going to change things in the near term. We ALL have to put up with the same circumstances. I'll take my pill now and go to bed.

April

I fail to see how not "yammering about it" will change a thing. Airplanes are supposed to be kept in peak condition. I don't really think they can, or should, be compared to one's car.

I can tell you, Bob, that I have flown Air Canada more than any other airline and have had only one slightly negative experience. In comparison, I have never seen so much unprofessional horsing around as on my one and only flight with American Airlines. I won't fly with them again as long as I live. They ought to care about giving that kind of impression.

Cal

I agree with the previous posters. I live in San Diego and frequently fly into Mexico. We prefer to fly from Tijuana on a Mexican airline rather than the US airlines.

Decent Tropical

It seems to me that more consumers have to stand-up for their rights and not allow themselves to be taken-for-granted by airlines.

I suggest that all people who have bad experiences w/ airlines fight back in the following ways:

1. Post descriptions of your experiences to travel forums and newsgroups, as the people here have done.

2. Write letters and leave voice-mail messages for the powers-that-be. Email, fax, snail-mail, keep trying until you get a reply. Be diplomatic and polite yet strong and assertive. I suggest writing your letters according to the prinicples in Dale Carnegie's famous book, "How To Win Friends and Influence People". Refer to the sample letters in the book.

This approach has been successful for me with several problems I had with businesses.

I included the following in some of my letters, after asking for some compensation,
"I have already a posted a summary of my experience to several newsgroups and I would like to be able to post an update stating that you responded to my letter by apologizing and offering me some compensation."

If after several tries you don't get a reply, or they reply but refuse to give you what you consider to be a fair compensation, I suggest that you threaten to sue and/or report them to the Better Business Bureau and the appropriate government agencies.

I haven't flown for years but I am hoping to start flying again soon and stories like this concern me greatly.

If we don't stand-up for our rights as consumers, who will?

Rich

I think that all of the posters here have raised some valid points. Edward, as I responded on another post, I think that all of the US carriers are quickly becoming about the same. As for hard landings, you obviously haven't flown Delta lately. I took DL recently from RIC to CVG, and it was the HARDEST landing I have ever experienced. Many of the passengers made audible gasps (& a couple screamed) when we touched down (eventually)...by the way, the weather was clear and the winds were calm. As I was leaving, I almost said something to the pilot, but when I saw her, I couldn't believe my eyes...she was an elderly woman who looked like she should be more at home in a bingo parlor than flying a passenger aircraft.

Also, have you taken US Airways? Believe me, your experiences w/TWA will seem like heaven in comparison to US Airways! If you want to deal w/rude personnel, try getting help from the surly so-and-so's at the US Airways ticket counter at La Guardia. As I said elsewhere, no matter how many times they change their name, they will always be Agony Airlines to me...

But, there is another point I would like to make...I certainly don't evny the jobs of airline personnel. In my travels, I have seen personnel physically threatened, verbally abused, and berated by snotty "I deserve everything" business traveller-types. So, while I am certainly not condoning poor service by any means, just try to think how you would feel if you were treated like dirt virtually every day you worked...

JoanieB also makes some very valid points....believe it or not, no airline has a "weather machine" that they can use to improve flying conditions... Also, I have found that a little patience and a kind word still goes a long way....

And April, I concur with you on American. I truly believe that their flight attendants came from a prison warden training school. And their chicken dinners could be utilized as a dog chew toy...

And finally, I also agree w/Decent Tropical. If you receive poor service, you should write a letter to the President or CEO of the company (NOT to customer service). It will make you feel better, and I have found that most companies will respond to such letters in a positive way.

oldfashioned

Are mad as hell and don't want to take it anymore?

Yammering at CEO's will get you nicely worded letters from their PR assistants, but not an iota of change in how things are done. IATA (the associations of airlines) won't do it, either, because it is simply a club of those same CEOs.

As long as the deregulated airlines are run with no supervision other than the shareholders' accountants, and as long as the public continues to put up with whatever happens to them and keep on flying -- or worse, with the pollyanna attitude of "hey, we're all in it together, but at least I got my tax write-off" -- things are not going to improve. To the contrary.

Remember that in the US you are not just a consumer, you are a voter. The reason we elect people to government is to do things that we cannot individually accomplish -- build roads, fund education, maintain a military. We, as individual consumers, have been utterly powerless to bring the airline industry in this country to heel.

Let your legislators know that airline passengers are being abused throughout the industry, with very few exceptions, and that this is unacceptable.

Bob Brown

I can ignore rude flight attendants, and get very stern with those horsing around and demand what I need. But what I find a function of total greed is the cattle car seating in most domestic US airliners. That is a function of decision makers and bean counters who have their collective eyes on one goal: profit at the expense of customer service. And I don't think that low wages are any kind of a justification for surly, rude, flippant, and incompetent behavior. And, I don't believe that flight attendants are living at the edge of poverty.
Attitudes begin at the top!
And people can be trained to exhibit professional behavior if top management insists on it. We in this country are becoming a rude, desperate, uncaring bunch compelled by selfish motives. Those school shootings are only symptomatic of an illness that pervades much of our society; they are not isolated instances of crazy youths out of control with dangerous weapons.

JoanieB

To the "stand up and be counted" posters: I wholeheartedly agree with you about attempting to effect change by going thru appropriate channels...things will not improve unless there's some grassroots action. My point about not getting upset and being prepared for less than polished behavior regards "point of contact" difficulties. That is, getting angry with and complaining about poor service TO these people AT the time will only upset you and those around you. It won't change a darn thing and will leave you frazzled and frustrated. If angry, vent to those with the power to change things (as some of you suggested). But getting angry at the time is largely futile. Not being surprised cushions the blow, so to speak. But by all means get the ear of someone up the ladder.
Surly and inappropriate behavior is definitely on the rise. As regards travel personnel it seems to me it's a function of 2 things. 1) it's not just among flight service personnel. It's everywhere from the athletic arena to the driver next to you on the highway to the grocery store, etc. Standards of conduct in our society are changing before our eyes. 2) there aren't enough 'quality' people to fill the various service jobs that exist in this country. Hence, the airlines, for instance, are hiring people I suspect they would have passed over in the 70's and most of the 80's. Of course that's a very broad generalization. There are plenty of dedicated and competent personnel in that industry. The bad apples, however, are increasing in number and are in much worse condition than we're all used to.
I am amazed, however, at the number of travellers who fail to understand that complex equipment breaks....and seldom in step with anyone's schedule. Yes planes need to be scrutinized more carefully than cars. But they're infinitely more complex and they WILL break down. Are any craft more carefully scrutinized than spacecraft? Can you recall any glitches among the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and shuttle craft? I seem to remember a few. I know....apples and oranges in many respects...but the point remains.

April

Ok I get your point. I don't mind if a plane is delayed for a reason but it irks me to sit on it for half an hour with nobody explaining why.

And perhaps my term "horsing around" wasn't the best choice to describe the American Airlines staff on our trip. At least the pilots flew the plane without incident but the ticket agents seemed to be a) learning on the job, b) lethargic or c) dishonest and flight attendants were completely incompetent. Remember how banks used to try to convey a sense of security with their solid pillars and marble? Airlines should strive for that secure feeling too. I don't want to be wondering if the pilots and mechanics are as inept as the rest of the staff.

ilisa

I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said on this thread, but I do have to take issue with one thing. Rich, you said your pilot was an "elderly woman." Perhaps I'm being too literal, but I'm curious about your definition of elderly since commercial airline pilots are forced to retire at the age of 60. And, would you have hesitated to comment on your landing if the pilot was an older male?

JoanieB

April:
Your comment about being left in the dark while on a plane, no explanation of the reason for the delay, or an estimate of duration, raises an important issue. Patients used to go to the doctor in the early 20th century and were often given treatments without any explanation as to what was wrong, what to expect, etc. Society determined long ago that such practices were not in the best interest of patients. Medicine is now more consumer oriented and more heavily scrutinized. Patients are informed (or legally should be) of exactly what's going on and have the right to have any and all reasonsable questions answered as best as can be accomplished by their providers. The airline industry, it seems to me, is still operating in a pre-enlightened era. From my readings, it seems the industry feels that passengers would be needlessly upset and unable to cope if they were informed that a part was being replaced, a crew member was ill and another was being called in, bad weather in a forward city might delay takeoff several hours, etc. Personally, I feel very strongly that the unknown produces vastly greater anxiety and occasionally irrational behavior (Deroit runway debacle on Northwest)than mildly bothersome, but concrete, circumstances.
I believe it's time for the airlines to develop a more forthright policy of honestly apprising passengers of status changes and adverse circumstances. BUT, that would mean passengers would have to be more willing to accept the fact that when you start to look beneath the surface, some ugly things occasionally appear. Flying an extra leg or two on a 'worn' part, scheduled to be replaced at day's end may be deemed 'safe' per FAA regulations, but may upset some people. Flying on a plane with a 'new' pilot may bother some. How much information is too much, becomes the issue at the opposite extreme.

Rich

Ilisa:

Terribly sorry to be so un-P.C......

First, the pilot looked to me to be more than 60 years old...perhaps all of those hard landings have taken a toll on her nerves, as well as the nerves of her passengers....

Second, before you telephone N.O.W., yes, I would have said the same thing if it was an elderly-looking male pilot, as well.

The fact is that whether it was a male or female pilot didn't matter to me as much as the fact that it was a horrible and potentially dangerous landing, and that this pilot should consider retiring, because her (or his) skills appear to be deteriorating, and could jeopardize the safety of Delta's passengers, which, in my humble opinion, is worth more than trying to prove a sociopolitical point....

C.clark

Would anyone care for a little cheese with their whine!!!!!!!!!

merriem

Frankly, I think the USA Airlines are doing a darn good job. In March I flew KLM..that was a real treat..went to check in, and "my seat had been given to a higher paying passenger", so they put me in the bulkhead of coach....sounded good...except I sat right next to a lady and a 12 month old baby....on her lap. Then they so kindly attached a small baby bed on the bulkhead wall which came half way over in front of me. Also, their food was terrible. If you every get ask to have a burrito, please pass on it, the Dutch just don't have the hang of it. Then again this year, coming back from Europe, I had the wonderful experience of flying Lufthansa....Horrible flight! They ran out of toilet paper. How hard would it be to figure out how much you would need for a full 747 flight for 10 hours. Then the attendant woke me up to ask for me to close the shade by my window...for those that wanted to watch the movie. That is rude. So, our next big flight is to Australia, and we are flying United!

John

Hi all,
I guess necessity is a mother...
http://www.airlinecomplaints.com/index.html
Don't know anything about these folks but it looks like a pretty good idea. But ".com"? Why not ".org"?

Ruth

A couple of years ago, my sister flew Delta from Dallas to Atlanta where she experienced what she calls "a landing so hard that I thought the plane would break in half!" What she calls the worst landing ever, and she's flown quite a lot! She said that she heard someone scream, "Oh, my God!" as they hit the runway, then realized it had been her (and there were several other yelps!) Then as they were recovering, the pilot came over the loudspeaker, apologized, and explained to them that it was his first landing as a Delta pilot! But my husband, who has a pilot's license, always says a good landing is any that you walk away from!

I recently read an article about landings, and that a hard landing is not necessarily a bad one, that sometimes weather conditions mandate them. I don't know - but I know I can do without them! And I'm sure there's a limit to how hard they should be, and my sister is sure that new Delta pilot went past that limit!