Attn Souther Californians living in WA and OR

Old Sep 1st, 2003, 08:46 AM
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Attn Souther Californians living in WA and OR

So, I married Seattle girl. And like many other Southern Californians, we're looking to get out of 'Dodge'.
Of course, my wife is putting on the push to move to either Seattle where she was born and raised (and where lots of her family and friends are) or Portland where she lived for a number of her young adult years and where there may be better job opportunities for the both of us.

Now I haven't been to Portland since I was a young kid and have no vivid memories but I have visited Seattle quite a few times and different times of the year, so I'm well aware of the amount and type of rainfall.

Question is what has been your overall experience in the pac northwest, and looking back would you ever come home? How bad is that rain day in and day out (being from SD i've never been in rain for more than a day or two at a time).

Those well versed in both cities, Portland or Seattle? Seems cost of living is more reasonable in Portland and with the possibility of better jobs that would be our primary drive for going there. Is there any difference in weather between the two cities?

Input from SDiegans would be especially appreciated..
thanks!!!
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 08:49 AM
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Reading back through my post, looks like a lot of mention of the weather, and although I'd like people's input, I'm also interested in other aspects of the quality of life there. thanks again
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 09:59 AM
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Hi, lizzard!

I have lived and worked in both Seattle and San Diego, although now I'm retired in the Bay Area, so don't know if I really qualify for your criteria of "SDiegan"!

Anyhow, for what it's worth:

my first year in Seattle, it rained - drizzled - for the first nine months. I hardly saw the sun. Going there from California, it near drove me crazy! I swore I developed webbed feet!

Furthermore, the statistics of that time said that Seattle had one of the highest suicide rates in the US; because it didn't pour rain and then let the sun shine but drizzled and drizzled and drizzled or, worse, had constant grey skies but no rain. Summer time, the Pacific Northwest is gorgeous!

Take the greyest day in San Diego and let it drizzle in your imagination, then multiple it by 200 or 250 or 300, and you will have some idea of the weather in the Pacific Northwest.

Did I want to come back to California? YOU BET!

It is also much colder in Seattle, so not only do you have to protect your feet, you also have to bundle up against the cold.

I seem to recall that Portland was not that much different.

As for the job situation, the Pacific Northwest is worthwhile moving to if you can get a better job. Then stay there for a few years. The living is good, the people friendly, etc. After you have been there a few years, you may want to stay or you may be, like me, screaming to come back to California!

Hope this helped! Just my opinion!
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 10:46 AM
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Well, lizzard, I started out in California and am now in Portland and I would never go back to Cali unless it was for one heck of a job. Weather is no big deal for me, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a big deal for you, only you can determine that. Are your hobbies dependent on good weather or do you sit inside watching DVDs every night? If you want to rollerblade every night in January then stay in SD; if you're inside all the time anyway, what difference does it make if it rains all the time? Have you ever lived where the seasons change much? My sister is in ALiso Viejo and we'll talk and I'll be in a turtleneck, a tshirt, a sweatshirt, and a jacket in the house, and she'll be in shorts and a T-shirt. Had a friend from CA who lived here while his wife attended school and the minute she was done, they high-tailed it outta here because he couldn't stand all the wet. You have to decide if it's important to *you*.
The economy in Portland is awful and if you have kids or will anytime soon, the school systems are really struggling because of a lack of funds.
If you really are interested in either town, get the info packets from each cities chamber of commerce and read the newspaper from each town to get an idea of what's going on in each place. Then visit each town. I would guess that it's unlikely that there are better job opportunities up here, but it would depend on your industry.
As for general quality of life, again it depends on what you're interested in. I like it here in Portland well enough. There's lots of stuff to do, many civic events, concerts, plays, sporting events, good restaurants, the summers are lovely, and we've got good friends here, but I don't want to be here forever. My desire is to see other parts of the country, though, not to escape the rain, which you get used to. Anticipating the impending 6 months of rain and short gray dreary drizzly days for me is worse than the reality of it once they are here since time passes more quickly every year. (Does that happen to everyone?)
Check out each city in person. You might love one of them so much the weather won't matter. Or maybe you'll dislike them so much the weather won't matter. Come in February so you see it at it's worst.
Good luck with your decision.
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 11:24 AM
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I live in Portland and like to visit Seattle (and San Diego actually). I've been to Seattle probably 10-15 times in the last four years, to San Diego about four times in the last four years.

Anyway, here are a few observations.

Part I: Portland vs. Seattle

Seattle and Portland are not identical. Portland is a lot smaller and, in my view, easier to get around. The people seem more laid back and relaxed in Portland, more ambitious and status-conscious in Seattle. Traffic is not as bad as Seattle's, which has gotten awful the last few years. Seattle is also more expensive.

But Seattle has more "big city" things to do than Portland does. Some concert events that bypass Portland may hit the much larger Seattle. And of course, Seattle has most major league sports whereas Portland has only the NBA Trailblazers. Seattle also has a major university (University of Washington) whereas Portland lacks one.

So if you like the "big city" stuff Seattle is more your speed. I first wanted to move to Seattle when I got transferred to Portland ten years ago, but now I much prefer living in Portland. Seattle is an easy visit. I can speak more specifically about Portland's great old neighborhoods than I can about Seattle's. Portland is a compromise between "big city" and small town, but I like that. Seattle is a little more intimidating.

As someone else said, visit both cities if it comes down to one or the other.

More about SD vs. the PNW in Part II...

Andrew
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 11:28 AM
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I had to conceal that I was originally from Southern Calif. for years (going back into the 60s, even) but know SoCal, Portland and Seattle pretty well by now.

First, job prospects are related to job skills. What field, in general, are you and/or your wife in? If you believe employment prospects are better in greater Portland than in greater Seattle it must be because of some knowledge you have in your field. Otherwise all we can do is be general.

In general, then, the unemployment rates in Oregon and Washington are, I believe, currently Nos. 1 and 2 in the country. Both states have been hit by the trifecta - lousy forest products industry, high tech and dot com splat, export-driven industries and they ain't buyin'... And being isolated from other big cities means the employment markets are not especially mobile. The Seattle area is much bigger and more diverse, so there's inherently more to choose from.

Both states' tax policies mitigate quick recovery - Oregon is dependent utterly on a state income tax, so if unemployment is high, wages are low, taxes are low, services get cut, unemployment increases, and so on. Washington has no income tax but depends instead on very high sales and "gross recepits" taxes, which are similarly nuked when business falls off, as for example when a big airplane company has its orders cut and responds by moving its headquarters to Chicago. Mention the word "Convair" around San Diego and watch the old-timers' faces.

The cost of living is not especially different than in SoCal - I know this because I'm acting as de facto economics advisor to relatives in the LA/SD area and know my way around Ralph's just fine. No state income tax in Washington, no sales tax in Oregon, versus both in Calif. helps even out the higher cost for home heating. Gas is usually cheaper than in LA/SD, movies a buck less, Big Mac the same. Real estate values in nice parts of both cities are high, but per cost per square foot is less than in nice parts of SD or similar areas in SoCal, usually way less.

The rain is something that you live with or not. Most NWers ignore it. The winter weather in Portland and Seattle is infinitely better than Milwaukee or Detroit. The spring, summer, and fall weather is as good as anywhere, even SD. No June gloom for example.

Portland, being a river town and inland, has slightly more extreme weather than saltwater Seattle - more hot days in summer and cold in winter. The outdoor recreation options in both are great, and in two hours from either you can be in the outer boonies, while in most parts of SoCal two hours will get you half way to Vegas. If you're lucky.

If you get homesick there are varieties of palm and eucalyptus trees that do fine in Portland and Seattle, provided you plant them near the dryer vent.

And the planes fly to California every hour or so. Mars it ain't.
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 11:37 AM
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Part II: San Diego vs. Pacific Northwest

Yes, it rains a lot in the Pacific Northwest (slightly less in Portland than Seattle). And the rain changes the character of the city. People are less fun-and-sun types as they are more likely to dwell in book stores and coffee shops on wet days. When nice weather comes, they take advantage of it and go out hiking, biking, or whatever - plenty of beautiful parks, trails, and scenery nearby. In So. Cal you don't have to look for "nice weather" days. Anyway, I think this changes people's outlook a lot and the whole feel of the area.

(FYI, we've had a very dry summer in the PNW this year - it's hardly rained in three months!)

Portland to me has a lot more character and sense of history than San Diego (except for the Spanish missions). I mean *within* the city, not in the suburbs. Portland has a great inner core (especially east side and near downtown) with great old houses. It seems more relaxed and peaceful than San Diego's. I've spent time in some of the older San Diego neighborhoods too - they just seem to lack something appealing to me. Portland's neighborhoods are fun to walk around int. San Diego has fewer old neighborhoods, a lot more suburban sprawl, and - yes - worse slums and more of them.

Portland also has a good public transist system that is used not just by poor people. The bus system here is very good. Of course, that's easier to do with a smaller area and fewer people than San Diego's.

Portland has a good arts scene for a city this size. We don't really live in Seattle's cultural shadow the way San Diego seems to live in LA's.

I think you'd be more likely to want to live near downtown Portland or a close-in neighborhood than you would in San Diego. Portland's downtown is cool - not nearly as packed with social life as, say, Gaslamp is on any weeknight but more authentic. People who move here from a city where the were afraid of downtown are inclined to seek out the suburbs here, too, and I think that's a shame. There's not much difference in my mind in living in the suburbs or San Diego or Portland: you have the same chain restaurants and stores.

In the end, no matter what you're used to already, whether you can handle the rain will depend on your own temperment. Some people can't stand the cloudy days, others tolerate it. Some of my ex-So Cal friends who moved here LOVE the climate and don't miss the sun in So Cal. at all. You'll just have to see for yourself how you can handle it.

Of course, the cost of living in Portland is far cheaper than in San Diego, meaning you could get a much nicer house here than in SD (or in Seattle). And if you miss the fun-and-sun of San Diego in January, you would easily be able to afford weekend trips back (easy direct flights on Alaska Airlines) once in a while.

Andrew

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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 11:44 AM
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Gardyloo, I'd have to disagree with you about the cost of living Portland vs. San Diego. It seems much higher there, based mostly on the cost of housing. Price a house close-in to downtown Portland and compare it to one similarly close to an nice area in San Diego. As I recall, SD is something like 50% or more expensive (plus the city of San Diego has a city tax, doesn't it?). I have considered moving to SD a few times but my jaw always drops when I look at the housing prices. Yeah, Portland's have gone up too, but I don't think they're near the So. Cal. price range yet.

Andrew
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 12:05 PM
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Everyone, your input so far has been excellent. Thank you so much. I look forward to future respnonses and follow-ups. I'm well aware that I won't know how I'll react to the weather there until I spend a considerable amount of time there.

My wife is in the outdoor apparel industry and since Nike, Adidas, and Columbia are in Portland (she's worked for 2 out of 3 of them), that's why we'd be leaning toward Portland. I'm a phone and cable technician, so I'm looking at either Qwest or Comcast.

The outdoor nature of the Northwest definitely appeals to me, but since I also work for a local communications company, my perks include all the boob-tube content you can imagine.

Aside from gardyloo's comments that the temperatures tend to be slightly more extreme in Portland, would you say that there are about the same amount of grey drizzly days?

I've certainly asked many of these weather related questions to my Emerald Sweety, but her answers tend to be a bit vague for my taste (on the flipside, I don't know that I would able to describe the intricacies and subtle differences of 300 days of sunshine either).
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 12:14 PM
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Andrew,
I'd be drawn to the older inner neighborhoods of Portland. Though we live in La Mesa now, I've lived most of my adult life in and around Golden Hill, University Heights, and Hillcrest.
We're an early to mid 30's couple and exposure to a decent cinema, theater and music scene would definitely be a plus.

By the way, the median home price in SD
county hit the $400K mark a month or two ago (which means it'll be pushing $425 soon).
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 12:38 PM
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I am not from California but rather Nevada originally. I moved to the Oregon about 10 years ago. I have lived on the coast, in the Rogue valley(southern Oregon)and in Portland. The rain does take a little getting used to but it is the price we pay for such a green and beautiful place to live. I have spent a decent amount of time in both Seattle and Portland and I would tend to say Seattle has more of those"grey" days. Portland is a great city with a small town flare. The people are very friendly but there is plenty to do.
Where I work I talk to alot of California transplants and I can say that some love it...some hate it. The thing they often point out is that it is so laid back here people just dont seem to be in a huge hurry. One man pointed out that it took him almost a full year to finally relax after moving here. The lack of stress here drove him nuts!
I wouldnt move from here for the world
and a good book on grey day suits me fine. BTW great input Andrew!
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 12:45 PM
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You've gotten so many great answers already, I doubt if I can add much other than my personal experience. We moved to Seattle (Bellevue actually--walking distance to the State Park where I love to hike) from L.A. (Brentwood) over 12 years ago and I've never regretted it for a second. I love it here--the quality of life is wonderful--beautiful environment and good arts scene (especially ballet which I love and opera which my husband loves.) But it does rain alot and I feel a need to take "rain breaks" (which we do) at least once or twice a year.

I'm also familiar with Portland and think it has a lot to offer, though I like this area more.

My brother and his wife live in San Diego and like it a lot--it sure beats L.A. in my opinion, but I know I'd miss all this gorgeous green. From what he's told me, I believe housing prices are less here, and even less in Portland.

The only downside for me in living here is that the flight to Europe is so long, but that would be true any place on the West coast.

I think it's good that you're doing a lot of research before moving. We did and it paid off for us and I'm sure it will for you. Good luck.
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 03:32 PM
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Andrew, I did say that housing is more expensive in Southern California. I believe that living costs in general, aside from housing, are probably around the same. Factor in the income tax deductions for higher mortgage interest costs (CA), state income tax (OR, CA) and higher property taxes (WA, CA) I think things come close to washing.

Lizzard, gray and drippy days are the same.
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 03:52 PM
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I don't know how reliable this page is:

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costo...tofliving.html

but it does allow you to compare the cost of living in two cities.

For a salary of $70,000/year (for a couple I guess - $40K and $150K yield about the same results), it says, comparing Portland to San Diego:

Housing 25% less (in Portland)
Groceries 15.7% less
Utilities 30% less
Transportation 8% less

Only "Misc. Goods/Services" (?) are 3.5% higher.

I could not find Seattle in the list - curious omission...

The 25% lower housing cost is lower than I expected.

Andrew

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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 04:04 PM
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Lizzard: the median housing price in 2002, according to this page:

http://www.movingtoportland.net/house_price.htm

(some good info there)

was $176,900. It's probably about $185K by now - the market hasn't been awful here despite the economy. But as always, the price is highly dependent on the neighborhood. $185K won't buy you much of anything in the nice areas here - probably closer to $300K in NW Portland.

Here, NW Portland (aka "Nob Hill") near NW 23rd Ave might be the area you want to check out if you like something like Hillcrest. Nice old houses, lots of restaurants and bars, and the best movie theater in town (Cinema 21). Very close to downtown But it's gotten expensive (for here) and crowded. There are some other great neighboroods as well (Hawthorne District, Sellwood, Irvington). The Pearl district here is the "hot, trendy place to live" but to me it is pre-fab urban neighborhood in an old warehouse district that I don't find very appealing.

Andrew
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 06:09 PM
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What about Vancouver? What's the commute into town (or is it not really a commute)? How about to Beaverton? I've heard of some advantage to living in Vancouver, while shopping in Portland (or vice versa) - something to do with one state not having sales tax and the other no state income tax. Does this sound right?

As far as as neighborhoods go, although I'm interested in an area with 'character', the coffe houses and hip dives per capita aren't that important to me (would have been the case 5-10 years ago).
As long as I'm not living next door to Billy Bob, and his family from 'Deliverance', living a little out of town if it means a substantial difference in housing costs would be more up my alley.
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 07:09 PM
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Lizzard, Vancouver, WA's housing costs are considerably cheaper than Portland's. One reason is simple: there's very little city life there. It's mostly suburbs and sprawl and not much culture. To their credit, the City of Vancouver does have some plans to improve the downtown and has already completed some renewal work on downtown, plus they want to build a brand new convention center and hotel down by the river. But the fruits of this effort are probably a decade away.

I have been starting to think about buying a house myself, and Vancouver tempted me because of the prices and because of taxes. (FYI, if you work for an Oregon company - I don't - and you live in Vancouver, you still pay Oregon income taxes. But if you get a job in Vancouver - the state of WA has no personal income tax!) I spent a lot of time in Vancouver. I decided there are a few areas near downtown Vancouver that are OK but not much else - and that I much prefer living in Portland. To me, it is worth the extra money to live here.

But if you don't mind suburban sprawl (Portland has an "urban growth boundary" to limit sprawl and increase density, Vancouver doesn't), there are a lot of newer houses you can get for a good price. One huge development in east Vancouver is called Fisher's Landing. It will probably remind you of Southern California: lots of pre-fab new houses on small lots in a grid, with lots of strip malls and chain restaurants. Good access to the freeway if your job is in Portland. If this doesn't bother you and you are satisfied driving into Portland once in a while for your "culture" you can get a whole lot more house there than you can anywhere in Portland for the same money.

The commute to Portland isn't so bad from Vancouver, but there are only two bridges over the Columbia River, and the I-5 bridge goes up often. The I-205 bridge is much better if you live in east Vancouver. Traffic on I-5 and I-205/I-84 probably isn't too bad compared to the worst of San Diego, but it does get worse each year.

Beaverton doesn't do much for me - to me it's just an overcrowded, overdeveloped town without much going for it. And to drive you'd have to use the awful Sunset highway (Hwy 26). I much prefer the east side of town.

If you have more questions, you can email me directly at

ahallfodors AT bizave DOT com .

Andrew

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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 08:12 PM
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Well I hate to rain on your parade (heh, heh) but I have to give you a word (or many) of caution: I lived in Oregon for 3 years (as an adult) and really loved the beauty of the state and the friendliness of the people. In many ways it is a perfect place to live. I might be there still except for ... the weather. I found the continual gray skies to be unbelievably depressing. I went to high school in Wyoming where we had winters with temperatures of 30 degrees BELOW zero and THAT was easier for me to take. (I grew up as an Air Force kid and have lived in almost every type of climate available in the States (and some overseas) from New York to Florida to Wyoming to ... many more), but the only climate I literally could not deal with was Oregon's. Maybe I have Seasonal Affective Disorder (that condition where people get depressed when they don't get exposed to enough sunlight).

Anyway I'm certainly not claiming that everybody has my inability to deal with gray skies but it is a very real phenomenon for many of us (and I wasn't the only one - I noticed a lot of the native Oregonians got pretty testy along about May and June every year when they were sometimes still having fires in the fireplace during the day! - and "summer" was still a long way off). I truly hope you are not one who suffers from lack of sunshine - and I definitely think you should give Oregon/Washington a try - I just read that Seattle set an all-time record for sunshine this year, so maybe global warming will be working in your favor - just be prepared to move again if you have to.

Best of luck to you!
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Old Sep 1st, 2003, 09:37 PM
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We've moved recently from Portland to Seattle and I spent some time researching the weather differences. Here is what I came up with, as I recall:

On average, Portland has 11 less overcast days a year than Seattle. Winter temps are a few degrees colder, summer a few degrees hotter, on average. (As Gardyloo says, Puget Sound moderates the weather more in Seattle.)

Portland gets winds through the Columbia R. gorge on occasion in the winter, which bring icestorms up to twice a year, in a bad year, though some years go by without any ice storms. Ice storms are unusual in Seattle.

This said, I don't think the differences in weather are sufficiently significant to be a factor in decision making. The weather is far more alike than different. Both cities suffer misty, dark winters. Both also have glorious summers.

How one reacts to the weather is a very personal thing and I know of no way to predict how people will take to the weather here.

If you do move here, here's a word of advice. Consider the shadows before selecting a specific location for a home. Winter days are short enough here without living in shadows of trees or mountains! Pick a sunny location to maximize light.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2003, 06:15 AM
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I've lived here since 1934 and second Go Cats suggestion about buying a house with maxium exposure to light. If you buy a condo, go for one on a southeast corner or with exposures in three directions.

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