60th birthday dinner in NYC

Me too!

Scalini Fedeli (which is in the original Bouley location) and Del Posto may fit your requirements although I have eaten in neither. They are very, highly rated for food, service and decor and are very expensive. There are other restaurants with fabulous Italian food, but they don't have this level of service and ambience. I'm considering Scalini myself for a big event in March.

Anything you want to know about Scalini Fedeli - check with BSpielman - the owner and chef - a good friend of his. It is absolutely top notch - as is Del Posto. Consider also Felidia, I Trulli, Pepolino, Babbo.

We've known the chef/owner of Scalini Fedeli NY, Michael Cetrulo, for almost twenty years, ever since he opened his first restaurant, Il Mondo Vecchio, here in Madison, NJ. It became (and still is) a highly successful place, joined in later years by his much more upscale Scalini Fedeli in nearby Chatham, the predecessor to his first New York place, Scalini Fedeli NY. SF in Chatham still has a three-month waiting list for weekend reservations. The dining room of the Chatham restaurant is modeled on the old Bouley, down to the vaulted ceilings. Here's why:

Joy and I took Michael and his wife, Tricia, to the original Bouley for their first visit when they were still quite new to the restaurant business. Michael, upon entering what was then a legendary dining room, said, "I want a place like this someday." The Chatham establishment became "like this." And, ironically enough, Scalini Fedeli did, subsequently, occupy that very room at Duane and Hudson.

In my admittedly biased opinion, you'll have a terrific experience. A beautiful ambience, outstanding food and great, professional service. Should you go, ask to see Michael, and please tell him that Joy and Burt Spielman send our regards.

Burt (since you put yourself out there) - I can remember the ceiling in the original Bouley - so beautiful, such soft lighting. And the original wood door on the front was also beautiful, but I'm wondering if David Bouley took it with him. As I said, I've never eaten in SF, but my husband is having a big birthday in March and I'm planning a surprise weekend complete with hotel (even though we live here). He thinks we will just be going out for dinner and has said he'd like to try something new, great Italian, but not formal. My question is would he need to wear a tie?

imo, Felidia has no warmth and Babbo will provide fantastic food, but it's far from intimate.

Burt/bspielman, thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Your coomments are just as magical as what I hope our evening to be! What you have described, and what I see/read on SF NY website, is exactly what I have envisioned. This is my first post on Fodor's, and I am a believer now! Now, is it difficult to obtain a reservation, say for mid-December, a Monday night?

Scalini Fedili reservations are available thru opentable
http://www.opentable.com/rest_profile.aspx?rid=6417

For some reason, when I looked on Open Table, only the Chatham restaurant came up - and listed in Manhattan!

I bookmarked a review I posted earlier this year on Del Posto.

We have been to Felidia's for an anniversary and found it lacking.

My favorite upscale Italian retaurant closed called L'Impero but I have not been to Scott Conant's new retaurant yet.

CPG, re OpenTable: Scalini Fedeli NY shows up as "temporarily offline." Here's a link to the OpenTable page: http://bit.ly/3JB3et The restaurant will, of course, take reservations directly by telephone (212-528-0400).

And, tadsgal, I'd suggest calling SFNY soon to determine how their reservation book works. Most upscale NYC places begin to take reservations a certain number of days before the dining date. Some are 28 days, some 31 days, some one month. I don't recall what SF's policy is. A Monday reservation is likely to be a little easier as that is traditionally the slowest restaurant night of the week.

Re the original curved wooden door: Unfortunately, David Bouley did, indeed, take it with him. http://bit.ly/2VfRcL When Bouley vacated the space, he wasn't particularly helpful to Michael, at that time making his first venture into New York, though other well-known chefs in the City were more welcoming, sharing their purveyors with him, and so forth. The entrance to Scalini Fedeli NY is, however, still reminiscent of the old Bouley.

While I myself would wear a tie, it isn't really necessary, since, in even the top-flight restaurants, there really isn't a "dress code" any longer. Your husband won't feel uncomfortable without a tie, but I'd suggest he wear a sportcoat and, perhaps, a turtleneck sweater or a dress shirt.

And, Adu and Joe, I agree that Del Posto would be a more than reasonable substitute for SFNY. DP is a very fine Italian restaurant in its own right. We happen to like Felidia, though I don't think it is as attractive as either SFNY or DP. Babbo is great but very, very noisy.

By the way, Joe's comment about our friendship with Michael Cetrulo reminds me of something I neglected to mention: I actually "worked" for Michael for a few weeks when SFNY opened. Having trusted our culinary and operational opinions over the years we were his friends and clients in New Jersey, he asked me if I would mind being his eyes and ears in the dining room during the restaurant's first few weeks of operation. I'm not in the restaurant business and knew little of the inside operation of such a place other than what I had gleaned by being a frequent diner. It was all I could do to keep out of the waiters' way, but I was able to provide Michael with some valuable feedback from some of his new and longtime clients who were visiting SFNY for the first time. I had a lot of fun those few weeks, and my "reward" was Michael's invitation to bring several of our friends in for complimentary dinners, among them Rosalie and Joe (jroth), with whom we had a fabulous time.

A note to tadsgirl and other visitors who seek out restaurant advice on this forum. There are a number of posters herein (BSpielman - an example) who are long time local residents and restaurant goers. They know this town and where to eat and their advice can be well taken. But there are other posters who have visited NY for several days and then report on their dining experiences and make recommendations based on that short experience. Thus - we see recs for places like Carmine's and Tavern on the Green (both popular with tourists) but - to be kind - really below mediocre. OTOH - recommendations for hotels can be quite useful coming from visitors since they get the hotel experience while locals just don't. If you asked me about a local hotel probably the best I can tell you is what the lobby is like.

jroth, thanks for the comment about locals' vs. visitors' opinions of restaurants. Totally makes sense, and something I, as a newbie, had not thought about.
Also, bspielman, I will call tomorrow about a reservation at SF NY, but also want to know . . . your favorite things on the menu, if you will . . .

jroth - you make a point, but sometimes it's really about the poster's/reviewer's opinion, standards, etc. and not whether they are local or not. There are visitors who enjoy fine dining whether at home or in the four corner's of the globe and their opinions can be valuable even though they're here for a short time. When I get recs - for California for example, I can get a sense about the standards of certain posters when it comes to food. This isn't black and white or fool proof, but let's face it, there are locals and visitors everywhere who think a greasy spoon is fantastic. So, I appreciate your opinion about BSpielman and don't doubt its truth, I just don't think one can generalize about who really knows and appreciates good food especially on a public forum like this. In other words, I can get a sense of the value of Burt's opinions based on what he says, not on where he lives.

I have seen more bad restuarant recs from visitors than from locals. The problem with locals is their prejudice for certain neighborhoods, price ranges, and specific cuisines. The problem with visitors, they often think they found some place that has either been long discovered or forgotten.

Burt and I often have disagreements over restuarants, so where does that leave someone who does not know either one of us.

Hard to say what my menu favorites are at SFNY. Michael built his career as a great saucier. I use that term in terms of his skill and experience, not the usual subordinate place of a saucier, third in the chefs' hierarchy in restaurants. My point in mentioning this is to recommend to you virtually any of the dishes he offers.

Look for his signature egg yolk-filled raviolo in brown butter, a dish he learned during a sojourn years ago at Ristorante San Domenico in Imola, Italy, and perfected long ago at Il Mondo Vecchio. We've also enjoyed the roasted venison chop and the pan-sauteed branzino, among many others.

Regarding Joe's, CPG's and Adu's comments about the veracity of comments and opinions on these sorts of forums, I tend to agree most with CPG. Readers need to judge posters' messages on the basis of their online "reputations." Over time, I think you can get a sense of a person's expectations and standards by the posts s/he makes.

While I don't think this thread is the place for it, this brings up the difficulty I have with anonymous rating systems, such as Zagat and, lately, OpenTable, among many others. One has absolutely no clue as to the reliability of the people rendering their opinions and ratings. It's only in forums like this one where peoples' postings over time can give readers some idea of "where they're coming from."

Of course, I don't mean that phrase literally, but it also spotlights the disparities of geography. Why else would restaurants that might be characterized as good but not great in New York wind up with 29 out of 30 Zagat ratings in other cities?

Yes - of course merely being a local does not make you a reliable source for restaurant recommendations. But having a broad experience over the years including an interest in cuisine is an important ingredient for reliability. There are loval posters herein who have literally dined hundred and hundreds of times all over town - knowsomething about cuisine - worth checking out what they say. And then - who's to account for taste? I try to pick up recs from people I get vibes have sort of the same tastes as I do. BTW - re Zagat's ratings - I find that the lower rated restaurants get them because that's what they deserve - but many of the higher rated places seem to be getting inflated ratings. Why? Good question.

I find that the lower rated restaurants get them because that's what they deserve - but many of the higher rated places seem to be getting inflated ratings. Why? Good question.

There is the herd mentality and people, even anonymously, do not want state contrary opinions. If you look at Zagat's most visited restaurants they are moderately expensive to very expensive. This gives me pause as to who can eat at these establishments so frequently. And ambience and service are disproprotinately important.

Zafat's guide to food shops, has very few stores under twenty. This book would be almost be ebtirely be NY'ers without much visitor participation. Which can also explain the wide variance.

Adu, I must disagree that ambience and service are disproportionately important. While they might not be equally important as food, as in Zagat, they make a tremendous difference in the dining experience.

Assuming food quality, preparation and presentation as a given, nothing else, in my mind, beats top-notch service, and I am pretty unforgiving when it comes to service lapses, particularly in high-line places. We've had experiences that could generously be called an "off night," but top-of-the-line places are top of the line precisely because they know they cannot have "off nights."

Ambience? I'm with Joe on this one, completely aside from décor. Some music may be appropriate; some, like the incessant noise at Babbo, is not. Instrumental music is better than vocal (I'm not talking jazz joints here). I'd sooner have no music at all, and I'm not really sure why restaurateurs feel it's necessary. When the place is nearly empty, music, even when played softly, is usually too loud. When the place is (nearly) full, if you can hear it, it's too loud, and, if you can't hear it, why bother playing it.

There is an Indian restaurant called Saravanaas. They food is fabulous, the decor minus 7 and the service spotty at best. It is all depends on what is imprtant to you.

<<<BTW - re Zagat's ratings - I find that the lower rated restaurants get them because that's what they deserve - but many of the higher rated places seem to be getting inflated ratings. Why? Good question.>>>

I've noticed this recently too. I received a copy of the Zagat guide for San Francisco, and looked up some of the restaurants at which I've eaten most recently. I almost all cases, I thought the "points" given for the food were 2-3 points higher than what I would have given them. It's like grade inflation in school.

Adu - your problem is you are spending too much of your life below 14 Street and so some of your views are skewed - or skewed up. Yes - a good number of what are considered top notch places are not cheap - and they do have to charge considering their location (East 50's and 60's are not E. 4 or E. 5 streets - rent-wise). they also have big investements in design and decor, larger staff, ingredients, and et al. Note also that despite what they charge there is a market for their product and a clientele that is more than willing to pay. It's when they have pretenses of top service, food, etc. but it just does not come off - look out. Cipriani is a classic example of that. But places like Jean George, Daniel, Bernardin, Gramercy Tavern and that ilk charge - and they are entitled and they deliver.

jroth, the only problem with your analysis, is that it would seem to suggest that ALL locals have good taste, while tourists do not. There are many locals in NYC as anywhere else whose opinions I would never agree with, while there are some traveling "foodies" who are far more discriminating than many local NYC diners. Don't forget Tavern on the Green has tons of local supporters, not just tourists. So before you can "trust" any local's opinion, you'd have to know something about that local's taste -- bringing us back to the point already given, that the only real way to weigh opinions is based on previous recommendations and comments and whether or not you agreed with those.

And don't forget, some recommendations are for what a poster is specifically asking for -- and not necessarily a personal recommendation. I was once taken to task for recommending Carmine's. Why? Because the poster needed a "fun" place to take a group of hungry teenagers on a low budget before a show practically next door. Does that mean I love Carmine's? No, it means I'm listening to what the poster is asking for not pushing my own personal tastes. And no one, but no one seemed able to come up with another recommendation that made even half as much sense for that situation as Carmine's.

Joe-

Over the years I have ventured above 14th Street. And I have very good meals at Café Boulud, Acquavit, Nougatine and others. But I find found many lacking considering the price and that includes Felidia's and Le Bernadin.

And there are many losers below 14th Street that I do not recommend.

<< It is all depends on what is imprtant to you.>>

I have eaten at restaurants with wonderful food, but no ambiance or special decor. That is well and good, but the price is usually gentle. If we are dining out at a very, very expensive restaurant (which is usually for a special occasion), I not only expect great food, but service and decor to match. And if I'm dining in that special type of establishment and all is not stellar, I am not forgiving.

My compliments to the posters on this thread for proving that there can be significant and meaningful disagreements on the forum without it resulting in a shouting match of insults!

Oh shut up Howard!

(I could not resist)

Why couldn't you resist? I think you should be proud of your restraint!

It is a joke Howard.

Being nice tires me out. BSpeil, JRoth, and I have had this discussion numerous times in the past. And it has gotten out of hand. I am afraid of JRoth he is an ex-nose tackle.

NeoP - Of course, I totally agree that merely because one is a l,ocal they have good taste in restaurant recs and tourists just don't have that. And I never said or suggested that. What I say is that there are a host of locals (many to be found herein) who have had years of experience in NY's restaurant scene and have displayed through their comments that they have certain standards - and I get those vibes in reading their posts. But a tourist who is here for a week or so just doesn't have that sort of experience - and I appreciate hearing from those who have been around town over the years. Your example of a rec for Carmine's for that specific group does work for them. But I have also seen comments from visitors recommending Carmine's as a "great" Italian restaurant.

Adu - I am surprised that you concede publicly to venturing on occasion above 14 Street. But be aware that the authorities are now on the lookout for undocumented immigrants to these areas of Manhattan. And if any of them pick you up be very careful about what you say about Le Bernardin.

Adu, of course, I know you were jesting...............and, so was I!

Some of my favorite art musems are above 14th Street. A mistake of geography and sensibility, I know that will never be rectified.

God I love New Yorkers. They're truly the best part of this city!

But I have also seen comments from visitors recommending Carmine's as a "great" Italian restaurant

Which also reminds me that absorbing the views of a bunch of strangers requires reading between the lines. Take TripAdvisor hotel reviews, for example....one person rates a Holiday Inn Express 1* because they like the service better at the Four Seasons, another person gives it 5* because it's clean, the bed is comfortable and it's in a great location. Or Yelp....it never ceases to amaze me that In 'n Out Burger consistently gets great ratings - often 4-5* - while In 'n Out makes a very decent fast food hamburger, it's still a fast food hamburger (not to mention that their fries taste like cardboard, despite being made from whole fresh potatoes). And the fact that "a lot of Chinese people were eating there" (a statement regularly made to indicate it must be a good Chinese restaurant) is totally ridiculous -- lots of Americans frequent bad American restaurants, so who's to say lots of Chinese people don't frequent bad Chinese restaurants.