UCONN_HUSKIES

Planning a a 2 week S Utah, N Arizona tour of the National Parks. Traveling with 8 and 10 YO boys along with my wife. We have the following outline for the trip and are looking for input. I have a lot of Holiday Inn points, and am trying to minimize travel cost, so tryingto use them whenever possible. We are in generally good shape and love the outdoors.

April 7 2012: Fly in to LV from Connecticut, Drive to St George (holiday inn) ( Pick up supplies)
April 8th- Zion NP - hiking (angels landing?, tough first hike). Staying in St George (Holiday Inn)
April 9th- Zion for half a day travel to Bryce for Sunset. Stay at Rubys? orGrand Staircase Inn (cannonville)? suggestions welcome.
April 10th -Bryce - hiking
April 11th - ATV in Casto canyon in the morning, Drive Scenic Rte 12 to Torrey (Austins Chuck WagonLodge?)
April 12 - Capitol Reef / Goblin State Park/ Little Horse Canyon (which would you make a priority given the time constraints?) Stay in Green River Holiday inn.
April 13 - Dead Horse SP/ Canyonlands NP - Mesa arch at Sunset. Stay at Holiday inn in Moab
April 14- River Rafting Trip - suggested outfitter? Stay at HI in Moab again
April 15th - Arches NP - Firey Furnace tour / Delicate arch (which one should we do at sunset?) Stay at HI in Moab
April 16th - Canyonlands - Needles district ( is this worth doing? other suggestions for this day? more Moab area sights?) - Stay in Moab HI or the View at Momument Valley?
April 17 - Momumnet Valley/ Gooseneck SP stay in Page AZ Holiday Inn
April 18th - Lake Powell/ Antelope Canyon/ Horseshoe bend - Drive to South Rim of GCNP (holiday inn at South Rim)
April 19th - Grand Canyon - Hiking the Rim (stay at Holiday Inn South Rim
April 20th - Grand Canyon / Drive/ Hoover Damn/ Vegas Strip (stay at HI property)
April 21 - Pinball Museum, Fly back to CT on 4:30 flight

I realize we are packing alot of stops into a short time frame but we are really trying to catch the highlights. I have spend a week at Acadia national park and didn't get to see everything, so i know what Im up against. Are their any stops you might cut out, or places you might take extra time at? We would like to squeze a couple hour horseback ride in somewhere...any suggestions? Anything else you ca think of that the boys might enjoy?

I appreciate any input.....
Thanks

spirobulldog

I think you can get all that in. I have some comments about several of your days though.

Before I even start. Buy a National Park Pass for $80 It is good for a year and will get you into any National Park, National Monument, National River, National Seashore, National Historical Park, etc. It is also good for some discounts to ranger-led activities

First in Zion, Bryce, and Grand Canyon stay "in park" at the lodges and save those HI points for later. You will be much happier and we love the Historic Lodges of the National Parks(it's just part of the parks in many cases)

Definately do Angels Landing And getting it out of the way first isn't a bad thing. One of the very best hikes in America. The last 1/2 mile is somewhat scary and perhaps slightly dangerous. If your kids don't pay attention to you and mind you, then this hike isn't for them. However, I wouldn't have hesitated to take my daughter on this at that age. She did do it at age 12 or 13 on our first visit there. The other "must do" hike there is The Narrows. You would need to rent shoes and I would rent pants to at Zion Adventure Company. They are fairly inexpensive. If the water is up(which it certainly could be in April) then you won't be able to do that hike. DO NOT do this hike if rain is threatening. You are in knee deep water and even deeper in just a few spots. Both hikes are something you will never forget. If your wife decides to stop at Scouts Lookout on the way up to AL, then she could just wait on you to finish. My wife stopped. Some people take one look at it and they know it's not for them.

In Bryce I would suggest Hiking Navajo Loop/Queens Garden(a combination of the two trails). Riding a horse into Peek A Boo Loop is pretty cool, but the hike is better And if you are trying to watch you budget, then I wouldn't do the horseride.

You might want to stop at Devils Garden in Escalante National Monument. This is on a very good dirt road just a few miles off HWY 12 (maybe 10 or 1 minutes). This area is similar to Goblin Valley. User Myer describes it as a Grown Up Goblin Valley and thats exactly what it looks like.

For me, I wouldn't do any hikes in Cap Reef. The one thing I would suggest is buying homemade pie in The Gifford House. The pies arrive warm at 8:00AM. Eat the pies right next door in the picnic area which is in the Orchard. Usually there are deer right in the Orchard too. The best thing about hiking in Cap Reef is that there is virtually noone there. The sights are really nice, but just not as amazing as the other spots, IMOP.

Don't miss Goblin Valley. Probably allow 1-2 hours there. Just let the kids kinda run wild(well sortof). You will be able to see them just fine from the overlook. Marvelous place!!
Another super place 5 mintues from Goblin Valley is Little Wildhorse Canyon. Do not get this confused with Wildhorse-you want Little Wildhorse Anyway, this is an 8 mile loop slot canyon. I would suggest hiking in about 45 minutes and then turning around. There is nothing hard at all about this one. It is much more narrow than The Narrows. The only thing that might give you a problem is finding the entrance. Just ask someone. DO NOT do this if rain is a threat.
BTW, I have stayed at Austin's Chuckwagon twice and it is fine. They have a neat little store and deli right next door too.

Most people prefer Mesa Arch at Sunrise not Sunset. Deadhorse Point is amazing but is a very similar look as the Grand Canyon.

I have done Delicate Arch in the morning and at Sunset. Personally, I like the morning as there is nobody there. You can expect 200 people there at night. But I am sure those 200 people would argue with me that there is a reason to go there at sunset. Do not miss Double Arch, The Windows, Balanced Rock, and I would do the entire Devils Garden hike over the Firey Furnace(either on is great though. and yes, there is a Devils Garden in Arches and another one in Escalante. If you don't do the entire Devils Garden at least go to Landscape Arch.

My Very Very Favorite all time experience in the 29 National Parks I have visited is my 2 trips with www.deserthighlights.com. This is called Canyoneering. I can't tell you how awesome it is. I have rafted the Grand Canyon and I think this is much safer and is way cooler. And your boys would be fine, if they are adventurous at all. I think it is safer than climbing a ladder. You are attached to two ropes. Anyone that has ever done this has loved it. DO IT!!!! BTW, they do a packraft. I'm think in April your going to freeze though.
Moab Adventure Company offers some canyoneering too, but use Desert Highlights. I did do a 4 wheel drive tour with Moab Adventure. Very Scary, but cool. I did not feel safe in the military hummer though.

Right by Goosenecks is Moki Dugway. A really cool 3 mile drive. Do both they are neat and onlye take 30 minutes or so for each one. Monument Valley is certainly worth doing since you are there, but it isn't my favorite. You will get more out of it if you get an indian guide for a few hours to drive you threw. Otherwise, you don't see much.

The Grand Canyon does have a huge wow factor, but I like the other areas you are visiting better. Of course, don't miss it though. I think you are about the right amount of time for there.
The Hoover Dam tour is good- I assume they still do the one where you go to the bottom of it. I haven't been to Lake Powell/Page. All of the other areas I have been to 2 or 3 times each.

If you search on my name and go through my TR's you will find photos of everywhere.

I hope for sure I have talked you into the canyoneering. I also hope you stay at Bryce, Zion , and one of the lodges at GC.

If you happened to have extra money. Slickrock Air in Moab has a good airplane tour that isn't overly priced. He would probably let one of the boys sit up front with him. I think they have a 4 seater and a 6 seater plane. They have a couple of routes they cover. I have done the 1 hour flight over canyonlands.

spirobulldog

I meant to mention that the National Park Pass won't cover Monument Valley, since it's on an Indian Reservation.

spirobulldog

One other things(sorry for the multiple posts) You can view any of these places on Youtube to get a sense of what you are getting yourself into even the canyoneering

I have been canyoneering in Moab and then in Oregon with them. Zion also offers Canyoneering-but DH would be hard to beat and you do have some extra time at Moab.

Medieval or Entrajo would be a good one. I really want to do Granary with them sometime, but that might be a bit long for an 8 years olds first experience. You will notice that some of his trips have been crossed out. Those were all inside Arches NP proper. The Park Superintendent stopped all guided tours inside the park when she took over. That will probably change in about a year. DH was the only authorized guide in the park. So basically those places are now off limits to everyone as it would be really stupid to try and do something like that on your own, unless you had a ton of experience.

Myer

I think youu're tgoing to have a snow issue in Bryce Canyon.

Possibly walk along the rim and sunrise at Bryce Point is spectacular. That's why you want to ssleep close.

I woulddn't stay at SStt George. Wherever possible you want to be inpark.

Find out the minimum age for rafting and Fiery Furnace hike.

As with some others Capitol Reef and Grand Canyon are far from my favorites.

Hiking the Angel's Landing hike is fine. However, going beyond couts Lookout with the kids is something you may want to think about. I wouldn't do it.

Just below Cannonvile (stop at the visitors center in Cannonville for instructions) is illis Creek. It's a real slot canyon. The 10 mile dirt road drive is an adventure (sandy, hilly and curvy) but at least you'll be the only one on the road so you can use both sides of the road.

Once you get to the parking lot (there's now a sign there) the hike is very as. Go at least 4-5 slots as it gets taller as you go. The kids will enjoy this.

Definitely go to Devil'd Garden escalante as well as Goblin Valley. You'll enjoy them and so will the kids.

Without a doubt Delicate Arch for sunset. If you go for sunrise you'll be going in the dark and when the sun comes up it will be in your face. For sunset the sun will set behind you and should be light until you get back.
I don't think you have any waterfalls in there. How about Lower Calf Creek Falls. About 3 miles each way (a bit long on a hot day) but the waterfalls are beautiful. It's on highway 12 a little west of Boulder, UT.

If you want to see my photos of most of the places on your list go to:

www.travelwalks.com

spirobulldog

Oops, I left out Calf Creek Falls. That is a good one.

InSandy

Don't know if there is much left to say, spiro and myler have pretty much covered it all. You will be seeing and doing alot in a fairly short amount of time, but what you have at the moment is not out of the question.

I do have to say that Capitol Reef is one of my favorite places. I love it more every time I go (which is probably more than 20 by this time). The Capitol Gorge hike is wonderful imo and well worth the time it takes. I love the drive down that scenic drive. And while it may be off limits now since there were some problems last year the Fremont river falls is a fun place to cool off on a hot day.

And the Grand Canyon is so much more than what you see at the rim, but since that is what you mostly would see in a short visit it can be not as appealing.

I also wouldn't take kids past Scout's lookout on Angel's Landing. Just too many places where a missed handhold or a misplaced foot could end in tragedy. When they are old enough to decide to hike it themselves then that is when they should.

Have fun!

bachslunch

Lots of great suggestions here.

If you're looking for a good (and easier) hike in Zion, the Emerald Pools trail is a good choice. And if you find the water too cold to do The Narrows, at least do the first part of it before you get into the water (The Riverwalk).

Spending two days in Arches wouldn't be overkill, either. All the areas spirobulldog describes there are worth exploring or reportedly so. My hands-on experience here unfortunately is limited to the Devil's Garden hike from the parking lot past Landscape Arch to Double-O Arch (with spurs off this trail to other nearby arches) and drive-by or drive-near views of The Windows section, Delicate Arch, Balanced Rock, and the Three Gossips.

Agreed that best options for Bryce are the Navajo Loop/Queen's Garden trail and hiking the rim.

Taking the tour at Monument Valley is both good to experience and also a car saver (the road into the valley itself is pretty rough).

Myer

I just reread what I wrote above. Could I blame the typos on a new keyboard?

For Bryce I agree. Definitely hike Navajo Loop going down and Queens Garden back up. I think that you may not be able to do them in April due to probable snow.

I also agree that there are many other very scenic hikes in Zion in addition to Angel's Landingf:

Emerald Pools
Riverside Walk (the first part of the Narrows but not in the water)
Canyon Overlook coming out the East entrance/Exit of Zion on the way towards Bryce or Page.

In Arches my favorites are:

Delicate Arch hike (not viewpoint) for a spectacular sunset. It's uphill going but downhill coming back

The windows area because of the number of different arches in such a small area - North and South Windows, Turret Arch and of course Double Arch.

Landscape arch. After this arch the trails gets long and a bit more difficult. I might not do it with the kids.

Fiery Furnace was a very good ranger-led hike. The age restriction is 5 so you're ok.

They seem to be making it sound a lot more difficult than I remember it.

http://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/programs.htm

There's a slight charge and you should reserve tickets ahead as it fills us early.

UCONN_HUSKIES

Not sure what I would have done to plan this trip before the internet. Thanks for all the responses.

I will continue to tweak our itnerary based on this new information. I am now a little concerned about the snow potential in Bryce, are there any other stops where this will likely be an issue. I think a 4WD adventure in Moab would be a good add for the boys.

Are there any easier falls to access, Im not sure I have the 1/2 day it looks like is required to do the hike to Calf Creek Falls.

Canyoneering looks interesting, I could find any age restrictions. Is this something a 8 yo boy could handle?

Anyone have any insight into horseback riding in Momument Valley?

Thanks again.

Myer

Bryce Canyon is probably the only place you mentioned that will have a snow issue at that time. The elevation is over 8,000ft. If there's snow in Bryce and you can't hike down, you can walk along the rim. Then see below about Willis Creek. It's quite close to Bryce and a lot lower in elevation.

Zion that is about 90 miles away is 4,000 ft lower and much warmer.

Moab is at about 4,000 ft so that shouldn't be an issue.

I don't know of any other waterfalls in the area other than Lower calf Creek Falls. The hike is a little long for the kids but is very easy and mostly level. There's sand on the trail so you've got to lift your feet.

Go back up and read what I wrote about Willis Creek. A bit of an adventure getting there but the kids will really like the easy hike thru the tall narrow slots.

I think they'll also like Devil's garden Escalente. A level 10 miles down a dirt road. Hole-in-the-Rock Road.

Also, they'll enjoy Goblin Valley.

Personnally, I don't think canyoneering is for kids.

Not that it means anything for you but I listed a dozen sights that my adult daughter has visited in the past year or two and asked her to rate them.

Bryce Canyon, Antelope Canyon and Willis Creek slot canyon were near the top and Grand canyon and Hoover Dam were at the bottom of the list.

emalloy

We have had snow on the trails in Bryce when we were there in late April every time, but the roads were dry and the overlooks were wonderful. Once out of 6 or 7 trips to Grand Canyon there was a little snow, but it melted very quickly and the roads never did have any build up.

I wouldn't expect it to be a problem for driving on your trip, but hiking in Bryce might be limited.

The other weather consideration in April is wind/dust storms. Twice in Monument Valley they were quite severe and once in northern Arizona we had to stop and find lodging because they were blizzard like, but with dust instead of snow.

The trip sounds great so far.

UCONN_HUSKIES

Looking at Willis Creek... it appears there is shallow water running in it most/all of the year? What are the water temp like in April (cold form the snow melt?) and what type of footwear would you recommend?

spirobulldog

Calf Creek Falls is just a neat waterfall because it is so big and a rarity in the area. There is a nice smaller waterfall that is at Mossy Cave in Bryce. Mossy Cave is a very short hike.

If the snow isn't a factor for driving in Bryce, then all the more reason to go I say. Snow would make things look even better. Bryce also rents snowshoes(I think).

If you look at all the tours that Desert Highlights does you can click on their photos and see all the kids that go. Also at the top left of the page is past trip reports. He use to post pictures of every single trip he took, so people could look at them. I believe he has about 10 years worth of trips starting in the 90's. He stopped doing that a few years ago(maybe privacy act scared him, idk). Anyway, you will see tons of kids, even younger than 8 doing it.
Medieval or Entrajo would be a good intro to it The more rappels the better, IMOP. Medieval does have an awesome rappel, because two people go over each side of the arch.

You will get people on both sides of the fence about Angels Landing and safety concerns. I saw several well behaved kids on it. Frankly, there were two very senior people that scared me more. One of them was a very fit 81 year old(I asked him how old he was). He said that he had hiked it about 25 years ago and he just had to do it again. He passed me going up-LOL. Only you know your kids. This would not be a place for horseplay nor a place to be careless. It is a fairly strenuous hike. If they are the type that sit in front of the tv, then it might not be for them. If they are the type that will kill themselves trying to ride their bike to the top of the hill, then they could handle this physically, most likely. Again, I would have taken my daughter at age 8 and not given it a second thought and I was/am fairly cautious with her- still at age 17 even. I did read about a teen that was doing some stupid stuff that fell. Frankly, I think the danger is over-exagerated.
The link below(which I think is an old link - so statistics may have changed), says that more people have died at Emerald Pools than Angels Landing.
http://www.nps.gov/zion/frequently-a...ing-trails.htm

I can almost guarantee you that you are far safer(statiscally) on Angels Landing than the ATV ride you plan to do. Or even driving you car there for that matter.

I haven't done Willis Creek to compare it to many others. The slot canyon I refered to(Little Wildhorse) could have water in it too. It isn't a creek though.
if you look on www.toddshikingguide.com he rates various trail in the Southwest. Little Wildhorse is one of the few he rates with such high marks. If you have time, do Willis, Lil WH, and Antelope Canyon as well. You can also find hiking info at climb-utah.com

Myer,
Tons of kids do the canyoneering. Boys at that age would love it. Both trips I've taken with them had kids and they had a ball. I haven't gone in Zion, but Zion Adventure Co. even does a family tour. I did the most strenuous tour they offered and I didn't think that it nearly as tough as a lot of the hikes I've encountered. I think almost anyone that did it would love it. I guess there might be some that wouldn't. And it's something that about anyone in decent shape can do. If you can hike 3 miles, you can do just about any tour they or others offer. There's really not that much to it. I can't begin to tell you how professional they were.

Risks are risks. Learning to ride a bike is a risk. Horseback riding is a risk. Playing any sport is a risk. Hiking is a risk. Some sports may seem riskier than others, just like hikes, etc. Ultimately it is up to you decide what is right for you. I tend to be a little more ambitious than the average National Park goer. But, I don't do stupid things either. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I am going to tackle everything. Just this summer I seriously wanted to climb Long's Peak in Rocky Mountain National Park. I decided that due to the altitude, my lack of being in shape that would be required, and the degree of difficulty that it was best for me to do a different hike.

spirobulldog

Links to some of my photos. I might add that my daughter did all of this with severe scoliocis. She had surgery and two rods in her back in June 2010 and is doing great. So she was doing all this with somewhat of a disability.

Delicate Arch hike, Goblin Valley, Pie at Cap Reef, Devils Garden Escalante, Bryce-Memorial Day Weekend 2011
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...0IatW7FqybsWI6

Zion/Angels Landing, The Narrows, Emerald Pools, other hikes
Oct 2009
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...0IatW7FqybsWJN

Arches, Canyhonlands/airplane Memorial Day Weekend 2007
Canyoneering
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...0IatW7FqybsWJc

Monument Valley, Natural Bridges and other places June 09
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...0IatW7FqybsWJv

Canyoneering in Oregon with DH Aug 2009http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0IatW7FqybsWJ-
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/w...0IatW7FqybsWJ-

UCONN_HUSKIES

One thing Im not worried about is my kids condition to do any of these activities. They both play travel soccer with practices/games 5 nights a week.

We have Quads at home, but there are very few open areas places to ride in the Northeast. Nothing like what is available out West. I wanted to take advantage of that for a few hours of our trip.

We took the boys Ziplining in Belize last year when the youngest was 7. He had a great time (despite inadvertantly stopping between towers and needing to be rescued). So we are probably on the higher end of the adventure scale. I took a look at Angels landing on You Tube and Im not sure my wife would allow her "babies", beyond scouts point, and thats okay. Still undecided about the canyoneering, will need to research further.

Thanksfor the hiking links...those will be useful.

grendel

Hi Uconn,

you asked about the horseback riding in Monument Valley - we did that with our kids (14, 12 and 10)this summer and we loved it.

The set up is not very strict so you can get pretty much what you ask for. We started out riding nose to tail, and ended up racing each other - and we are not experienced horseback riders. The guide didn't mind, in the end you are responsible for your own kids. I guess that adds to the risk taking discussion above.

We paid $50pp for a 2 hour tour, service was really slow, be prepared to stand around waiting, don't be in a hurry for your next destination.

have fun!

Myer

I haven't been to Little Wildhorse canyon so I can't comment. As spiro wrote do all of them.

Just because you see the word canyon doesn't mean they're the same.

I think Antelope Canyon is amazing but it's more of an attraction. They drive you there and it's an easy walk in the park. It's the lighting that makes it what it is.

About Willis Creek. Make sure you get instructions at the visitors center in Cannonville. You go south on the main north-south street in town below the visitors center, after a mile or so there's a fork in the road. For Willis Creek you take the right hand fork. After about 10 adventurous miles there's a sign for the parking lot on the right hand side. My first time there was before the sign was put up. The instructions were to back up if you drove down a little hill and over a creek.

As with any slot canyon you shouldn't hike it if there's rain in the area. A slot canyon has many feeder streams. If it's raining somewhere it will find it's way there.

Willis creek is a full-year "stream". Usually it's only an inch or so high. We wore regular hiking boots and kept hopping from left to right to left over the water that was only about a foot or two wide.

The first time I was there it rained in the area. On our way back it was an inch or two higher than when we went out.

There are about half a dozen slots. Each slot is only one or two hundred yards long. You've got a couple of hundred yards between slots. They get progressively taller and more impressive so go at least 4-5 slots before turning around.

There's even a little waterfall about 6-7 feet high. You can either climb up the side or back up and walk up a little hill to go around the waterfall.

Each time I was there we only saw one other group.

I was there with my daughter a year ago September. She listed Willis Creek as one of her favorite stops.

On the way back we drove up a hill and had to stop for a few minutes as there were a bunch of cows on the road. One was feeding.

If you take a look at my photos at www.travelwalks.com you'll see photos of Willis Creek on two trips.

spirobulldog

Oh man, you had me worried for a minute. When you said "quads at home"- all I could think of was quadruplets. lol

We have zipped too(www.soaringcolorado.com). My wife just about stopped short on a zip too(but she made it in very slowly). It's just a different thrill. Really, I don't see how you could get hurt on the rappelling portion. It would be possible to fall off a ledge or something while doing the hiking part of it, but that could occur on a lot of the hikes that you will find in Utah. There is some scrambling. Anywhere there is much of a danger the guide will put a rope on you. A lot of the canyoneering is in water- you would just have to decide if you wanted wet or dry-they provide wetsuits or drysuits-depending on what is needed. They also provide you with a ton of picture.
Now the one we did in Oregon is totally different than Utah. So don't let those pics scare you--Oregon was much more intense.

Scouts Lookout is where my wife stopped. Take a look at it and see what you think when you get there. There is a ledge you cross and there is a chain to hold on to. Once on the other side there is plenty of space(where you aren't directly on the edge). To me, the photos and videos make it look a little worse than what it is. I'm not gonna lie though, it will get your attention. My daughter scooted on her bottom part of the way. The worst part is if you meet someone. Somebody has to let go of the chain for a second or two. My daughter would just let them grab around her waist(kinda cross an arm over her body)-she wasn't going to let go for anything.

It sounds like you have an awesome trip planned. Even if you wind up skipping a few things you will still enjoy it immensely. And as Myer and other have stated seeing one canyon is totally different than the next. Kinda like how each arch is unique.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to do this trip in reverse. That way you would have an extra week for the snow to have melted at Bryce. Probably wouldn't matter much though.

InSandy

The Mossy Cave waterfall was not flowing in April or March last time I took this hike. So don't count on that. It is irrigation water and flows seasonally.

For footwear at Willis I would wear something you don't mind getting dirty and wet. If it is cold you'll want to try to avoid the water, but it kind of feels good when it is hot.