Would you like to comment on the London riots on Saturday, 8/6/11

JSmith, scary stuff - Tottenham in North London is just 6 miles north of Charing Cross had to check out the location on line.

>>Tottenham in North London is just 6 miles north of Charing Cross <<

But in socio-political terms, we are talking hundreds of miles. Don't imagine this is going to happen in Trafalgar Square. Like other countries, we have had disturbances of this kind before, and they tend to stay very localised, if only because if there is any organising principle, it's associated with the territoriality and limited horizons of young men's gangs. They're angry with the local police.

Looked more like an excuse for looting and typical yob behaviour than any political or enviromental statement

Embarrassing and a horrible thing - but agree with PatrickLondon - this isnt anywhere near 99% of tourists would be - you wont notice a difference at all.

Little pos's with the hoods over their heads and the works. It has nothing to do with a political protest; it's an excuse to loot and throw rocks and all the other stuff going on. They should be thankful they live in a free society and take advantage of their right to protest but not the rest of this garbage. I don't want to hear excusers about unemployment or lack of this and lack of that.

BTW on the Sunday news on the BBC, there was some talk of some vandalism although not to the degree in other places at Oxford Circus....ouch.

Just go to skynews.com and look right at the top of the story looking at these animals kicking in the glass of a store so they can loot. It's sad when it happens anywhere and in the next day I hope we don't hear the usual excuses and how they hate the police which gives them the right to loot steal and maim.

Just go to skynews.com and look right at the top of the story looking at these animals kicking in the glass of a store so they can loot. It's sad when it happens anywhere and in the next day I hope we don't hear the usual excuses and how they hate the police which gives them the right to loot steal and maim.

The IQ of a mob is inversely proportional to the size of the mob. These folk have just pissed in their own food.

This is not the first time there has been unrest in Tottenham due to the police vs estates - the mid 1980s saw riots breakout in the same area (look up Broadwater Estate for the full story) after a woman died of a stroke during a police search of her home (a family member was the target of the search). This event sparked further distrust and resentment of the community against the police and they protested outside the same police station as this Saturday just gone. They were joined by more and more people and eventually riot police were called into combat the "youth element" as they were becoming violent. This escalated in to full blown rioting, petrol bombing, brick throwing and then the knives and guns came out and a police constable was killed by a mob chasing the retreating police (and fire brigade) when he fell. It was all about social intergration of the police, or lack thereof, then, and it is again now. That's what gets people angry. It's just unfortunate that the wanton and aimless majority latch on to an issue that needs addressing just for the sake of mindless destruction.

Whilst things may have started off as a protest of conscience (outside the police station) this time, they soon degenerated into anger. The destruction of property and looting seems to have become a by-product of many demonstrations of late. Remember the anti-war (Irag) protest of 2003 in London? Was huge, but relatively calm with no destruction of property (save a few flower beds). Unlike last year's "student" protests which turned violent with looting all over the centre. And the G20 protests of 2009. The last two are when we started to hear more about the process of "kettling" used to control large groups of protesters.

The fact that this time looting and violence has broken out in Brixton (on a larger scale, Oxford Street was 50 "copycat" tossers trying to get in on the act) shows it's an excuse to run riot (literally) rather than make any statement about the way police act. It's not on the scale or with the same intent as the riots in Brixton in the 1980s, but people will make the link now that things have sparked again in south London. If you know Brixton (I lived there until the start of this year and never had any issues), the Foot Locker and Vodafone shops were vandalised/set fire to and they tried to break in to loot the Curry's 9electrical goods) store up the road.

Often the original protest theme gets hijacked by those intent on causing unrest and rumours spread about why something happened (ie why someone was shot, run over, arrested, etc) until the truth is no longer known and the only reason many are there is to cause destruction and to be seen to rail against the establishment without a clue of why they are angry.

From Guardian:
But this is only one side of the story. A woman approached me to speak, explaining – without being prompted – how a peaceful demonstration against last week's fatal shooting of Mark Duggan by police had turned to this.

There were others, too, trying to stop the violence. A young man in his 20s, waving his arms in the air, strode down the street, shouting: "Time to go home! Time to go home!" Another argued with a group, telling them the looting was not helping".

While looting is always deplorable, it is certainly not surprising in societies where all of the latest technological gadgets are presented as 'musts' in order to exist in modern social spheres. The companies spend millions convincing consumers that they cannot live without this stuff.

Um, they looted a carpeting and area rug store?

From what I saw, they just burned it. It must have smelled horrible.

On the one hand I do feel sorry for the youths who grow up on these estates, they are pretty much guaranteed to turn into criminal underclass scumbag types, sorry, but that's true. You can look at a toddler and think 'poor little sod hasn't got a hope'. You can't help think that the sort of parents who feel it's a good idea to raise a family there aren't the sort of parents kids really need. Even a decent family has an almost impossible job.

On the other hand, there's no excuse for being a criminal underclass scumbag type.

You are getting free education up till age 18 - make use of it.
There are all sorts of community actions and groups trying to make a difference - make use of them.

People are so passive about their lives. If you have the misfortune to be born there, fight to get out, don't fight each other.

jsmith - I don't think it's so much that it is minority youths in these areas that have high unemployment - it's that ALL youths in these areas have high employment but due to 'white flight' it's mostly BME families there now.

Again, completely fail to understand why new immigrants move to these areas when they could move in anywhere...why pick a dangerous slum to come and start a new life in? That may sound simplistic but whenever I ask that I'm told 'they go there because they can find work' or 'they go there because they can afford it'. anywhere outside of London is still cheaper, and I thought the main problem with these areas is the lack of work? Can't get my head round it at all. I know lots of immigrants, and they wouldn't have gone to live round there if you'd given them a million pounds. You can't save people from making dumb decisions.

Xenophobia from the ruling class

and the Yard enforcement over the years along

with economic disenfranchisement has bred

Xenophobia and anger among the recipients.

Jobs Jobs Jobs should be the focus and solution there

And elsewhere worldwide .

It's interesting how the story of the original shooting incident is beginning to change;

Innitially we were being told - by The Met. - that Mark Duggan was shot in response to shots fired at police officers who stopped the minicab in which he was a passenger. Indeed the life of one officer was only spared when his radio (worn on his breast in the UK) stopped a bullet fired by Duggan in which it lodged.

Now we're hearing ballistics tests have determined that the bullet recovered from the radio was infact poice issued ammunition shot from a police issue weapon, a weapon which at all times remained in control of the police. In fact it has not been established whether Duggan fird any shots nor was even in possession of a firearm.

I have no wish to give rioters any excuse nor anyway condone their actions. However The Metropolitain Police have an issue - it's been longstanding and they've singularly failed to grasp the nettle: Their first version of any high profile event rarely jives with the actual facts which become known over subsequent days and in the ensuing investigation. Think Jean Charles De Menezes, the death of Ian Tomlinson at the G20 protests, The NotW phone Hacking investigation... Many Londoners simply do not trust The Met's first version of events on any issue.

They're going to have to work hard to remedy that perspective - maybe thay could start by declining to make any comments beyond the blandest of blandishments and specifically not rushing to justify their officers' use of deadly force until after the inevitable investigation.

Dr D.

I agree with DrD. It has becoming increasingly difficult to believe anything that comes out of the Met at the moment, so any rumour is likely to be given credence.

The riotiing and looting did seem to be opportunistic after a peaceful protest. I am also wondering how many of those involved were immigrants, and how many were born here.

I tend to agree with "underclass" idea. We have enough people like that around here: No education, no ambition, no interest in working, bringing their kids up the same way.

It looks as if once again the Met has cocked up - still at least they didn't manage to kill the police officer so at least there's some good news

Another thread mostly by people who have not lived it (rioting) at all, other than seeing it on the news. With the kinds of comments I see about it- same as could have been written in 1968.

"White flight" indeed. How insolated and ancient a description. You blame the white for leaving and then judge immigrants "wise" for not moving there where they can afford to live and go to work? What a dichotomy. Maybe they should stay and get robbed of $900 and beaten up just like my Dad has at 92. That was just last month. In Chicago, where he has lived for 63 of those 92 years and refuses to leave his home.

Yes, jobs. Never enough jobs- regardless of the upbringing or training levels. Human jobs that existed for millenium just vanishing within 50 or 100 years??? And you think everyone is going to make nice-nice with the marketing and view of media the poorest "see" when they are in a place where social life ist standing on corners for up to 10 hours a day or night for most of their lives?

Honestly, we have had this kind of thing in Chicago nearly every summer to some extent somewhere. And in areas of wide geographic spans (maybe 2 or 3 square miles) about every 10 years. A few in my youth, nearly leveled a couple of huge quadrants of the city. And in one that was my famiy's home and relative's butcher shop- many of the "blocks"- even today-are rubble. The worst things I have witnessed in my life, have been during a riot.

There are lots of books and research on this. And some of it is absolutely race connected, as well. Different cultural styles of reaction, as well.

This is part of the culture accepted within the socio-economic reality of poor and idle groups. Very accepted by the majority. The majority that knows that it is the only way to "get" what they see others have and they want.

I do agree that after it is over, and the rioters of every age and level in the neighborhood now realize that they have no grocery store, no ice cream shop, no barber, no pawn shop, no second hand replay show, no liquor or smokes store, no currency exchange etc. etc.- they always act surprised and shocked that all is not replaced within a short time, like in a cartoon.

But it's "ok" because it isn't where the tourist go or where you need to live? So don't you be afraid.

When one person commits a crime, like stealing, it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility and poor decision making and mete out punishment. (I would hope that the punishment would consider the criminal's background and aim for rehabilitation, but that's a different discussion.)

When an entire neighborhood goes into the street to loot and set fire to stuff, it is a social problem that needs to be addressed. The peaceful, law-abiding citizens of that neighborhood will suffer, society as a whole will suffer, and social costs will rise if you merely punish those whom you can catch and verbally condemn the rest.

OK, these youths are angry. That isn't an excuse, but it may be an explanation that could prove useful in crafting a response. I am frustrated when all efforts to explain such an event are called "excuses"--that is head in the sand behavior.

Say one thing for the Tories - you always get better riots under a Tory government.

No, really, I wonder if there is a correlation?

Dr D.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

"When an entire neighborhood goes into the street to loot and set fire to stuff, it is a social problem that needs to be addressed. The peaceful, law-abiding citizens of that neighborhood will suffer"

Isn't that contradictory? If a whole neighbourhood goes into the street to loot etc clearly there cannot be any peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

Looking at the current pictures it seems most of the "rioting" is just petty vandalism. It's this season's "activity".

<<Looking at the current pictures it seems most of the "rioting" is just petty vandalism. It's this season's "activity".>>

I take it you did not major in sociology in college.

Pretty easy to chalk it up to vandals and "criminal underclass scumbags."

When a person joins a mob to loot and burn it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility and poor decision making and mete out punishment.

I'd rather not talk about poor decision making. That kind of discussion is one that might involve a mother saying "Trevor is a good boy, he just made a bad decision", when in fact Travor is a bad boy.

Actually, I'd rather not talk about the (lack of) personal responsibility of those involved either. A better discussion would be about their criminal responsibility and meting out punishment.

At least the rioters haven't tried to justify their idiotic
behaviour by calling themselves 'anarchists' as they did here
in Vancouver.

<<When a person joins a mob to loot and burn it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility and poor decision making and mete out punishment.>>

I agree that, to the extent it is practicable, those who engage in looting and burning should be charged and punished if found guilty. However, it would serve society well to go beyond just trying to jail the participants and look to the causes of the rioting and try to address those issues.

<< Pretty easy to chalk it up to vandals and "criminal underclass scumbags." >>

Given it's happened in several areas totally unrelated to the original incident it's clear that most of the incidents are copy-cats creating trouble for the specific purpose of creating trouble.

And most of the original incidents were more to do with obtaining big-screen TVs at a highly discounted rate than protesting against the police / The Man.

The only people who have been hurt by these incidents are other locals - some of whom were burnt out of their homes.

Neither the unemployement arguement or poor relations with the police really wash this time round.

There have been job losses in many places - London is probably one of the better places to be looking in tough times. Also the gang mentality prevelent in areas such as this doesn't really speak to me of anger and anarchy in protest at lack of prospects - there is a culture of existing by nefarious means and seeing that as something worthy of respect and admiration. Very little sense of foiled or unmet aspirations.

Also, we are led to believe that considerable time and expense has been spent on improving community relations with the police since the Broadwater farm riots. Yet many of the interviews with locals yesterday seemed to focus solely on the importance of the police engaging with 'yoof' and showing 'respect' . The riot was justified by virtue of the fact that the police had not provided answers to the communities questions re the shooting (despite the fact that the ongoing investigation might preclude that, and not withstanding the above observations that early briefings tend to be inaccurate or deliberately economical with the truth.)

People have lost their homes, businesses and cars at the hands of their own neighbours. What has really been achieved?

>Would you like to comment on the London riots on Saturday, 8/6/11 <

No

Thank God for small favors.

tom42, <I agree that, to the extent it is practicable, those who engage in looting and burning should be charged and punished if found guilty. However, it would serve society well to go beyond just trying to jail the participants and look to the causes of the rioting and try to address those issues.>
My point exactly, only much better said. Thanks.

>Yes, jobs. Never enough jobs.....<

There is another aspect to this.

There are too many people.

"Riots spread to new areas of London Monday in a third night of violence as hooded youths torched cars and buildings, hurled missiles at police and looted shops, in the worst unrest in the British capital for decades."

Home Secretary Theresa May, who cut short her holiday to take charge of the government response to the riots, said arrests had climbed to 215 and 27 people had been charged.

"The violence we've seen, the looting we've seen, the thuggery we've seen, this is sheer criminality ... These people will be brought to justice. They will be made to face the consequences of their actions," she said.

The mayhem has so far been centered mainly in multi-ethnic, poorer parts of London, only a few miles from the Olympic park that will welcome millions of visitors in less than a year.


http://news.yahoo.com/more-violence-british-capital-riots-003854640.html

Paint it how you may but something is rotten in Tottenham and we're getting a good whiff of it over here. Easy to call them thugs, oportunists, etc but at the core something is wrong where a part of society feels marginalized and spat upon - thus the pent up anger that at times boils over.

Home Secrectary May should use both the stick and the carrot IMO if she really wants to diffuse future eruptions in an area I believe is not far from the 2012 Olympic Stadium site.

Or did the Tottenham Hotspurs just get too hot>

Man is a social animal. When people attack the society they live in, their very own neighborhood, something is certainly wrong that goes beyond one hoodlum's desire for a new TV.

Don't worry - Boris and Dave are returning from their Jollies to Save Us All.

Didn't Boris make some remark to the effect that cancelling his hols was 'giving in to the thugs'

Presumably some PR bod has pointed out the error of his ways. Again.

This is utterly shocking...I cannnot believe how out of control it has been allowed to become. And that it took this long for Boris and Dave to react. Completely unacceptable!!!

Who is a more anti-social element Rupert Murdoch and his cronies or the thugs in Tottenham - the former were allowed to wantonly vbreak the law for years - the latter riot for a few days and it's like the worst crime ever? Or is it only because the Tottenham creeps were poor and the Murdoch creeps were rich and paying just about everyone off?

Looting is looting no matter who does it or how they do it.

tom42, a sociologist, wrapped up in complicated sociology theory, might too easily overlook the explanation that these WERE simply crimes perpetrated by vandals and scumbags

We don't need a league table of relative naughtiness for corupt corporations vs the disenfranchised underclasses - it won't remotely help the situation. Nor does one excuse the other.

However, I am a bit perturbed by the fact that I find James Murdoch strangely attractive....

a scientologist, wrapped up in complicated sociology theory, might too easily overlook the explanation that these WERE simply crimes perpetrated by vandals and scumbags - talking about the Murdochs I guess but only these were whte collar crimes, aided and abetteed by high up government and police officials and thus let go on

the first rock in Tottenham though probably brought casternation, condemation, anger, etc right away - both are wrong but why is one quasi-supported by the government and police establishmen - Tottenham thugs will have no famous well-paid barristers to defend them for a crime IMO far less serious than the Murdochs, who are still at large - the creeps in Tottenham will rot in jails for a long time IME before even being brought up to trial. And this discrimination is one reason the locals are rioting IMO.

a scientologist, wrapped up in complicated sociology theory, might too easily overlook the explanation that these WERE simply crimes perpetrated by vandals and scumbags - talking about the Murdochs I guess but only these were whte collar crimes, aided and abetteed by high up government and police officials and thus let go on

the first rock in Tottenham though probably brought casternation, condemation, anger, etc right away - both are wrong but why is one quasi-supported by the government and police establishmen - Tottenham thugs will have no famous well-paid barristers to defend them for a crime IMO far less serious than the Murdochs, who are still at large - the creeps in Tottenham will rot in jails for a long time IME before even being brought up to trial. And this discrimination is one reason the locals are rioting IMO.

Well at risk of starting another argument with PQ - I am sitting locked in my house while rioters destroy the livelihood and buildings in my town centre a block away. I cant leave my house, the pubs are all being destroyed, the stores have all been looted, police cars are burning on the square.

I personally feel more impacted by the madness on my doorsteps than a few hacked voicemails, no matter how their privacy was violated. I consider this a pretty darn serious situation that should be punishable harshly.

Where are you Jamikins?

Woolwich

But dont hold it against me hahaha

Scary thing is that I have friends in Wimbledon and Clapham and there is looting there as well and they cant leave their house. Seriously, how can this get so out of control.

In Tottenham at the weekend the police were reluctant to take too firm an approach in case it exacerbated things ( having been accused of being too heavy handed in similar incidents in the past).

I think that softly softly approach has probably been knocked on the head by now....

omg jamikins that's horrible.

Destroying a person's business or burning down their home might be "far less serious" than hacking a phone to you PalBoob, but not to a normal person.

Can you escape on the ferry

Its absolutely insane. They need to shut down all transit and bring in the army and retake control. I have friends all over London and its the same thing. Someone needs to take back control. Its unbelievable.

Weirdly the Thames Clipper IS still running! But nothing else is. Buses, rail station, DLR are all shut up tight. Oh and now there is a fire in the town square. Sorry - this is WAY worse than hacking a voicemail.

"...And several buildings were on fire in Croydon, including a family business that had been in the town for 100 years which was completely destroyed.

"The Reeves furniture shop was engulfed with flames, with nearby homes evacuated.

"In Birmingham, several premises were attacked, shop windows smashed and property stolen in various locations. West Midlands Police said officers had made nine arrests..."

"Its absolutely insane. They need to shut down all transit and bring in the army and retake control."

Brilliant, most of the problems are local and you want to close down the whole of London Transport - FYI bus routes and stations in affected areas ARE stopped and closed

As for bringing the army in - what do you expect them to do, start shooting?

"The Empire Strikes Back"

You are right alanRow - this is working much better. Keep up the good work so far at containment. Clearly it is all under control.

Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange is 40 years old and it pretty much depicted how things look now. Just a coincidence or have the seeds of all of this been visible for so long?

I was watching the government officials announcing, "We are against violence, we are against thuggery." Do they really believe that such a meaningless statement is going to change anything? Shouldn't they be trying to understand what is happening rather than just saying "this is bad"?

Oh come now, bring in the army?? Don't get me wrong, being trapped in your home because looters are rampaging around is awful, unacceptable. But alanRow is right, armies aren't police forces, they aren't trained to be, and surely no one thinks firing on fellow citizens is called for. Fortunately, the idea seems to be being considered only here in the Lounge. And, more seriously, I have no idea what the authorities will do to reestablish order.

"You are right alanRow - this is working much better. Keep up the good work so far at containment. Clearly it is all under control."

I can't see how closing the whole of the London Transport system is going to flummox the rioters when most of the rioters are rioting within a few hundred yards of their homes.

And as for sending the troops in - they aren't trained for riot control these days, so what exactly could they do?

For crying out loud - I didnt mean bring in the army to start shooting people - maybe I should have phrased it better, but I am a bit freaked out because the town center a block from my house is on fire - BRING IN SOME BACK-UP TO HELP DEAL WITH THE YOBS AND RESTORE ORDER TO SOCIETY.

In Canada when there has been civil unrest they have brought the army in to restore order, so its not a crazy thing to suggest. They are man power on the streets to re enforce police. They dont come in and gun down everyone - geez.

Do we just sit here and let them burn down and loot the city until there is nothing left?

There are riots in a number of locations, so the police are probably already spread quite thinly. I don't think they can summon up extra resources that easily, or they already would have.

You just have to sit tight, unfortunately, and it will pass.

In the U.S., we bring in the National Guard, with bullet-proof shields and tear gas.

"The Empire Strikes Back" -- more like 'The Invasion of the Body Snatchers'. Sheer lunacy.

Good luck to the police.

Oh -Jamikins that is sooo scary. Stay safe.

To give an idea look at this interactive map

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8689355/London-riots-all-incidents-mapped-in-Tottenham-Brixton-Hackney-Lewisham-and-Greater-London.html

From over here it looks a lot like the Met just has lost the ability to deal w/ these sorts of things. The anarchist/student riots unnecessarily got completely out of hand and these are even worse.

I agree, jamiekins. It IS scary. Stay safe.
Let us know how you are doing.

My quote of "The Empire Strikes Back" refers to the long-ago domination of many European countries over other countries (including the U.S., which long ago lost its claim to rightousness). What you do wrongly has a tendency to bite you back in the ass.

A lot of us come from less than salubrious backgrounds and don't behave like this. So, zero tolerance - send in Cholmondley Warner on a spear!

What a stupid comment.

Well we are sitting tight. The town centre is on fire and there are riots and fires all over London boroughs. Fire crews are on the scene, but its still very scary and looting and rioting continues unabated. Cant think of how this will be resolved or stopped. Once they loot and burn down one town centre they move onto the next and the police just cant keep up.

I still think they should bring in the troops - something drastic needs to be done, not like shooting, but some authority of some kind! Tear gas perhaps?

Jamikins,
If I were you, I'd get out of there. Whatever it takes.

Ps - I was referring to the comment that suggested people having their houses burned down is some sort of righteous punishment for colonialism.

I wonder if someone else can get in a jibe about teeth.

jamikins, this is scary. Stay safe.

Its safer to stay put, we are a few blocks from the fire and can keep an eye on it from our balcony. We are in a new build that is hopefully well built for fires. I dont want to be outside at 1am with the rioters and there is no transportation at this time (plus its all shut and we dont have a car). Just praying morning comes quickly so we can reassess. It is going to be a long night.

Please let us know how you are through the night, jamikins.

{jamikins}

no "right" words to offer, just thoughts for your (and everyone's in England) safety

Thanks guys, this is downright frightening. They seem to have contained the current fires. Fingers crossed. Dont think we will get much sleep...

jamikins, how horrible. Stay safe. Stay inside unless you have to leave because of fire, and if you have to go out I hope you have a baseball bat or something like it.

I've been reading more about it online and it is downright disgusting. Looks just like an excuse to rob and loot and run wild in the streets. The photos are frightening, can't imagine actually being there.
There are incidents of the rioters attacking commuters and other people just trying to go about their business.

This isn't Somalia where people are starving to death so I don't buy all the b.s. about colonialism, blah blah blah.
It isn't food they are stealing, it is cigarettes, booze, big screen t.v.s, mobile phones, clothes, hangbags etc. I saw a photo of a convenience store and they'd broken into the ATM and then hopped the counter and were cleaning out the cigarette supply.
Disgusting.

My son lives in central London and just called. He said that he and a friend were walking over from Euston street and there are emergency vehicles,police cars all over the place heading up to Camden Locks area.They have trashed a bike store and are looting all over Camden Locks area.His friends who live east of the Liverpool tube station have been told to stay in their flats;some friends of his are stuck in Ealing station.Friends have called from Notting Hill and have said that people are burning cars and trying to break into houses. Bond Street and Oxford Circus streets have been closed off.He says that it is crazy what is going on there but has assured me that he thinks that central London/Bloomsbury will be alright. So sad!

Jamikins and anyone else caught in the crossfire, I hope the night passes quickly for you and tomorrow brings a calmer day. I will be checking back to see how things are going.

jamikins, hope you're still ok - just saw the footage on The Guardian website of Woolwich. I hope you don't take the advice above and "get out of there whatever it takes". I'm sure it was meant well, but it's just not wise to be outside at the moment. Daylight isn't far away - let's see what that brings. My part of town (Tufnell Park) is ok for the time being, but Camden is just down the road (literally) and things are being smashed/burned there - Electric Ballroom was apparently just smashed up. Friends in Clapham are stuck inside while other friends in Bromley said the high street was being looted. No sleep again tonight. A link was given above for locations around London affected, here's another one: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341&z=10&source=embed

Going to work tomorrow is going to indeed be interesting. Stay safe Londoners (and now Liverpudlians, Brummies and Leodensians) and keep an eye on things. Don't think this is going to stop for a while yet.

Stay safe jamikins.

"Friends have called from Notting Hill and have said that people are burning cars and trying to break into houses."

Amazing. I read that a mob ran into Ledbury and mugged the diners at their tables earlier this evening!

Hope all of the London peeps are safe. I've read that the looting while spontanious at first is known driven by social networking sites. Gangs/young people meet up trash and loot stores. Shame.

Sadly most of the lowlife scum taking part won't be brought to account unless given up by the cowered majority of the communities they are so intent on trashing. How long until there are curfews imposed, swearing of special constables... martial law??

PS - Note the cute juxtaposition of threads on this forum - this one with 'Cloth Napkin Etiquette'. Then there's 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes' with 'Sean Hannity, "I could get elected in Utah"'.

God, I cannot believe there is anything going on at Oxford Circus. That's close to the dorm my son was living in near Gower Street. Good luck, Jamikins, I am very sorry this is happening

Jamikins, I agree with you the Met are totally ineffectual in dealing with this. There were pictures on the BBC news where shops were being looted and burnt and not a police car in sight!!!

I would suggest they send over some PSNI from Belfast along with their rubber bullets and pelt them, they are not afraid to use them. The PNSI have experience in dealing with this sort of thing, the Met are totally out of their depth.

Some of the rioters were as young as 10!!!

Hope all's well with you both this morning jamie. What a horrid experience last night must have been.

My daughter now lives mid-way between Brixton and Peckham, I told her to call me in the night if she was scared but she hasn't. I've not heard from her yet this morning. A friend's daughter lives in Ealing, I'm concerned about her too. And of course, I hope our old chum CW is safe as well, he's out in the thick of it.

Stay safe jamie and scott.

I wonder how CW is coping?

I expect he is out there with his big stick!

I saw that Mrs. May said that cuts in the police budget have nothing to do with all this. It also sounds like she wants local vigilante gangs to join in the action.

Well we made it through the night. Our town center isnt as bad as expected, but its pretty beat up. Wimpy's, Wetherspoons, the new Wilkinsons and the T-mobile building on the high street are all burned. Mobile phone stores, pawn brokers, clothing shops and game shops all broken into. Really unbelievable.

Everyone is up and about their regular business, but everyone is pretty shocked. To be honest, I am frightened about tonight

Stay safe out there everyone!

"Big sociey" volunteer riot Police!!! Although I have said nothing would surprise me, I think officially sanctioned vigilantiism is still one step too far, even for the more Right wing of the Conservative party.

Glad to hear you're OK jamikins.

jamikins, very glad to hear you're ok this morning.

It's interesting that there's a lot more talking on the train today - usually there's studied silence but today everyone is comparing notes and just incredulous at the brazen and self-absorbed attitude of those looting/rioting. And that the police seemed to be nowhere at times (Croydon esp.).

kerouac wrote: I saw that Mrs. May said that cuts in the police budget have nothing to do with all this. It also sounds like she wants local vigilante gangs to join in the action. I can't fathom she actually wants us to believe this drivel about police cuts. And yes, I found the subtext of vigilate groups in her speech as well - worrying, but it might just happen. What else can you do when the Mayor and PM won't take the incidents seriously. Will be interesting to hear what they have to say when they compose themselves after unpacking from hols!

Ugh, I'm in Clapham and the little thugs were out and about last night trashing Northcote Rd. Absolutely no political motivations, just wanting to steal stuff. It took the police NINETY minutes to show up and they had free reign at Debenhams, Currys, etc. Once the police finally did show up it was endless sirens and helicopters. You could see the yobs running home through the common with their balaklavas and hoods on. Worried about tonight as well. I hope they institute a curfew and shoot them w/ rubber bullets if they try to defy it.

Wait, I've got it! The football matches which were supposed to happen tonight should still go ahead - 20,000 angry football fans should sort those little oiks out in no time!!!

Bikerscott took some pics last night from our balcony and we did a walk around this morning to see the damage.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150332768750115.386921.544425114&l=c835aa587d&type=1

Not nearly as bad as we thought, still bad though. And we werent even that badly hit.

Sorry - something drastic needs to be done to restore order. Vigilantism doesnt seem to be a good idea - I dont understand the hesitancy to clamp down - bring in the army to patrol the streets and bring order - why on earth is everyone pussy footing around these crazy criminals and letting them run the show???

"What else can you do when the Mayor and PM won't take the incidents seriously."

Given that both Bojo & Call-Me were involved in regular rioting when at university they probably think all this is a bit of a jape.

In France we have the CRS 'riot squad' specifically for this sort of event, with all of their robocop gear. Perhaps if the UK police get their budget back, it might be worth looking into.

I am sitting in Australia watching this, and wondering where the control is.
This is not a protest, but a chance to be an absolute yob. These young men (can't see many women) are acting like animals, and I for one would have no problems dropping tear gas near them or even hitting them with rubber bullets. Bring in the army, and put them in cages where they belong. If you act like animals then you should be treated like animals.
would not care even how old they are. Enough of social niceties. these thugs have caused a lot of damage and human suffering.

Trust me, plenty of women (aka teenage girls) are involved. They were filming on the streets in Clapham last evening during the looting and there was a goodly amount of girls getting involved in looting the Debenhams department store.

If you put them in cages, they will breed.

My daughter lives in Bethnal Green and it came pretty close.
One encouraging thing is the Twitter #riotwombles.

Belfast have offered to send over 2 water cannons but they have been turned down???

New Delhi is offering to host the 2012 Olympics.

I'm glad to hear you are ok jamikins, it must have been terrifying.

I stand by my 'simplistic' description of this being underclass scumbags and not having any sympathy for them. Yes, it's hard growing up on some of those estates, but you still have choices. I have some sympathy for the very young involved, those under 16, but over that, your choice to act like this and there ARE organisations offering help and advice to young people in the area who want to reject this type of thing. I know this because I have several of these organisations as clients and they do everything they can for these kids.

This is just their idea of fun and excitement. And the chance to get a nice tv/booze/ipod/phone and to 'love the sound of breaking glass'.

I shocked myself this morning by thinking 'omg, they need to bring in a curfew and the army.' not to shoot people but just to keep the streets clear while this is brought under control. Then I thought again - using our army against our own people - event the scumbag underclass - is something I hope I never see.

I am all for bringing in re-inforcements. Who has the upper hand here - why is everyone so afraid of showing authority and discipline? This society is broken because no one is held accountable for anything and everyone is afraid to show some discipline and pussy foot around.

Using the army against our own people is harsh - but so is our own people trashing, looting and burning down our town centres.

Like I said - not for the army gunning down people in the street - but showing a prescence and potentially clamping down using tear gas and at worst water cannons is sometimes required. I have never see anything like I saw last night - these yobs are out of control and we need to get the upper hand and it is clear to me that the police are not enough.

". I can't fathom she actually wants us to believe this drivel about police cuts."

Learning basis arithmetic might help

The Met has 32,000 officers (more per head than many other major world capitals, and roughly the same as New York). That number has fallen by just 900 in the past year.

A 3% increase in current numbers wouldn't have saved a single off licence.

I saw a televised report that showed a great deal of broken glass in the streets and a burned-out shell that had once been an Aldi store.

alanRow wrote: Given that both Bojo & Call-Me were involved in regular rioting when at university they probably think all this is a bit of a jape.<i/> I'm still having a giggle at that - thanks for the smile!

kerouac wrote: If you put them in cages, they will breed. insert collective shudder here.

flanneruk - aahh, there you are, was wondering where you were. Not so much my "basis" arithmetic as questioning the worth of funding cuts. Yes jobs have been/are being cut in the police force, and apparently these have been "desk jobs", yeah right. Perhaps the money "saved" could have been spent on upgraded training for police. Either way, control has been squandered and the funding cuts in this area can't be helping things.

jamikins - thank you for the photos of Woolwich and whilst the aftermath isn't as bad as it sounded last night, it's still not good. May they be done with it and tonight be quite (well, we can dream).

Well they are increasing police from 6k to 16k tonight so hopefully they will get the upper hand. Still dreading dark...

Jamikins, thanks for Bikerscott's photos. Looks terrible.

Here is a map of where the rioting is occurring.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&source=embed&t=h&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341

>>Belfast have offered to send over 2 water cannons but they have been turned down???<<

They work on large crowds gathering - and staying - in one place. They don't work on people who melt away into the side streets when the police turn up and then re-group somewhere else.

>>Again, completely fail to understand why new immigrants move to these areas when they could move in anywhere<<

That's simple. New immigrants tend to settle where there is already a familiar community and where they feel welcome - and where accommodation is affordable, which cuts out a lot of places.

But I'd be very surprised if that had any relevance to this: it's all England to a china orange that these youngsters are at least one, probably two, generations removed from immigrants, and for whatever reason have settled for trying to be big fish in the small and deprived pond they know, rather than the usual routes to self-advancement in the wider world (which, particularly in relation to housing, are not that easy).

Bring on the tear gas and rubber bullets. If the police can't handle it then bring in the army (or at least those that aren't in Afghanistan). There is a need to act decisively and to be seen to act decisively, before the silent majority decide to stop standing around spectating and take law into their own hands.

"Here is a map of where the rioting is occurring."

It isn't

It's an amazingly sloppily defined map of where some people claim rioting HAS occurred at some point over the past three days.

Bad cartography by Google and this idiot poster's inability to distinguish between "is" and "was" are a perfect example of how misleading rumours proliferate on the web.

Oh flanneruk, I think you must fancy me... following me around the boards.. teasting me....you little flirt, you!

One only has to look at your comment about being 'Cameron's biggest fans' then waffle on to say how bad his leadership is, to see just how 'idiotic' you are.

You flirt.

Technically, you seem to be following Flanneruk, as his posts proceed yours on both the London riot threads.

I'm not sure how bad this is going to get. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if our local scum decided they wanted some free goods this evening.

It is quite disturbing, I'm coming over all "Daily Mail"

I think Balham/Tooting is going to get it tonight, if I had to hazard a guess. Possibly Putney high street as well.

No help here, just an article on how Philadelphia is dealing with unruly yoots:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/08/08/nutter-sets-9pm-weekend-curfew-for-minors-in-center-city-university-city/

9pm curfew on weekends, and if the parents don't promptly pick them up after detention they are turned over to HHS.

Wouldn't it be easier to collect them all at leisure if you took the animal analogy to a logical end and forewent rubber bullets for tranquilizer darts? You could easily even tag them for tracking and later collection, keeping them on a short leash until such time they could work themselves silly rebuilding public property and these people's lives, businesses and homes.

Pakistan has now advised its citizens not to travel to the UK due to high levels of violence.

My friend had the idea of drenching them all in that special water banking trucks use thats impossible to get off - then they could just go around with an infrared light arrest them all the next day - brilliant!

I think the idea of a city wide curfew for minors is a terrible one, there's only a tiny minority that cause trouble, so it's not fair to punish all of them. Teenagers are getting demonised too much these days as it is. Apart from having their trousers round their ankles, most of them are ok.

Sorry Nona, I disagree completely with you. Law abiding, well behaved teenagers will understand that this is not punishment.

Watch this brave old Granny giving em hell!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024087/London-riots-West-Indian-woman-stands-rioters-Hackney.html

Totally disagree with you nona1 - put in a curfew for 2-3 weeks, get the morons off the streets and get the city back to normal. Then the law abiding people can roam freely in safety. I highly doubt the law abiding public would find this a problem.

They have already shut off all our transit links, closed all businesses in the area and cleared our town centre. A curfew to stop the terrorizing would be I think welcomed!

It always surprises me how many people are careful not to blame the criminals, or qualify their criticism by noting that they are poor, foreign, disenfranchised, etc.

That's just a patronizing and PC excuse. This is criminal and very dangerous behavior. We saw similar activity by the "students" in the past year.

I'll let the psychologists ponder how these things work, but let the police and army determine how to stop it.
Yes, the army might escalate things and a thug or ten might be killed. Rather these thugs get hurt/killed before one single innocent person is hurt, though that may be too late.

The man who was found shot in a car in Croydon last night has now died.

The police MAY be allowed to use plastic bullets.

I don't understand this, injure the little scumbags and make them suffer real pain.

Ms May says it is not the British way to use water cannons, Well, Ms May they were used in Belfast about 4 weeks ago when a lot of young thugs ran a muck. It worked, they did't come out the evening after it and plastic bullets were used as well.

I thought the Met had been issued with Tasar guns?? If they have them why don't they use them?

It always surprises me how many people are careful not to blame the criminals, or qualify their criticism by noting that they are poor, foreign, disenfranchised, etc.>

It equally astounds me that folks like you can completely miss the sociolofgical causes of such pent-up emotions letting loose - you see a small picture but completely miss the big picture in your myopic take on this. There is indeed more than meets the eye here and British society should take a good look at itself and why these type of riots occur and so many partake - yes loot because they feel they have been unjustly left out of propsoerity, etc.

To not reflect and make adjustsments means more rioting.

To say this is just a criminal matter is so so naive.

Pal, why do emotions justify this? We all have emotions, it is how we choose to exhibit them -- and how we let others exhibit them -- that define a society.

[By the way, what's your stand on spousal abuse? Well he was mad and she deserved it?!]

Basically, there is an underlying belief by those who mean well, that those poor people "just can't help themselves."

"I think the idea of a city wide curfew for minors is a terrible one"

If you're referring to the Philly case, it's just over a couple areas of town on Fridays and Saturdays after 9. People were afraid to go into the downtown districts for dinner because of the robberies and intimidation. Aw, poor demonised babies.

Ms May sounds like someone PalBob and nona could support. She might have been caught by surprise on the first night, but the subsequent millions of pounds of damage, destroyed businesses, and injuries and death are on her.

I dont think anyone is missing the 'sociolofgical causes of such pent-up emotions letting loose' - this society is broken and something needs to be done. But that cant be dealt with until order is restored to the streets and if that means using everything we can to get order restored (including tear gas, force and curfews) then I say do it. I have never seen such disregard for other humans, they are like animals. If you are going to destroy and loot than forget your rights - you gave that up with you broke in a burnt down someones life.

We definitley need to deal with the broken society - But I think a big part of the brokeness is that no one is held accountable for their actions. C

hildren run amuck with no discipline, teens are allowed to do whatever they please, and act like yobs, and the law abiding citizen is handicapped because they cant do anything that might hinder the yobs rights - what about our rights? Its just wrong. Enough is enough.

Tackle the riots and lootings by all means necessary and then we can tackle these big issues. Right now this just needs to stop.

Jamie, those pictures are so scary. Thankful you and Scott made it through last night okay and praying for your safety and others' tonight. Hopefully the increased police presence will help.

PQ; utter drivel.

Nona1: I think the idea of a city wide curfew for minors is a terrible one, there's only a tiny minority that cause trouble, so it's not fair to punish all of them. Teenagers are getting demonised too much these days as it is. Apart from having their trousers round their ankles, most of them are ok."

Sorry, that seems very wrong headed tome. Not only would a curfew help control the creeps/yobs, it would also protect the good kids. No one -- good guy, bad guy, anyone, should be on the streets after dark until this is madness is stopped.

What is a "yob?"

It isn't "either or" thinking. You can acknowledge the criminality of the behavior and take whatever steps are necessary to restore order and still acknowledge that there are bigger societal issues that need to be addressed. If a govt does the first without then doing the second, it is doing a disservice to its people.

I agree with Jamikins that everything should be done to get order restored including tear gas, force and curfews, as necessary. Once order is restored, then people can start thinking of the broader problems.

A yob is a youth that acts in a disorderly fashion or a thug

We've all been sent home early from our office near Victoria Station. They are shutting down Wimbledon and it's expected that there will be rioting activity in Wimbledon/Putney area tonight. Nothing really to do except barricade ourselves in our flat with wine and steak.

thanks jamikins and I hope everything gets back to normal for you as soon as possible. good luck.

Thanks for all your good thoughts! Good luck to all those Londoners out there (and anyone else impacted) and please stay safe!!!

great link, avalon!

Be safe, LondonYank

We are about 20 miles from London and I noticed today at lunchtime that a few of the shops in the high street have kept their shutters down over the windows and just opened the door. Also one jeweller has removed everything from the window and put up a sign saying 'we are open but not displaying'. We are just a small town but I suppose it shows people really are afraid of it spreading out of the cities as well.

Fingers crossed that you all have a quieter night if you are stuck in this.

I actually think a curfew for a few days would be a good idea - the link that I was responding to was about a permanent curfew in some areas. the idea of spraying them with the 'smart water' is a brilliant one. Make it clear that anyone near any of this is up for grabs, so don't stand and watch either, so they can't rely on a defence of 'I was there but I didn't do anything'.

How would they enforce a curfew? Where will they get the water cannon - the Northern Irish ones are needed for the Marching Season. Tear gas is going to cause problems for bystanders and could cause problems for the police themselves. Sending the army in begs the question of what do they do - shooting people is a bit extreme.

How does any city in the world enforce a curfew? You announce the curfew and arrest all those out without due cause. alanRow, I am curious - what city do you live in? What do you suggest to stop the madness?

oUR POLICE USE GAS MASKS WHEN THEY HAVE TO RESORT TO TEAR GAS. anD ANY PERSON OF AN AGE ON THE STREET AFTER CURFEW ARE ARRESTED Sorry caps were on and I'm too lazy to retype

Radio here was talking about how (England/UK..missed the qualifier) had the highest percentage of people NEETs (Not in Education, Employment or Training).

As a corrolary,Bombardier is closing its plant in Derby due to a recent contract loss to Siemens. Plant is historc, had been in operation for over 2 centuries. Direct/indirect losses of up to 20,000.

PQ; utter drivel>

So janis dear - you think there is no underlying cause for this eruption - that they are just plain thugs? Well why does Britain have so many thungs them?

I'd say to you that you are reacting blindly, without an iota of thought, to what has occured and some of its underlying causes.

Yes dear rather myopic

and here is what alanrow said on another thread:

paraphrasing - that Cameron and a buddy used to smash up pubs and restaurants when they were young - yet I suppose Janis and her ilk would not think that any reason to not elect him PM and thus excellerate the dispairty of wealth in the U.K. as Cameron has slashed social welfare spending and giving it quite transparently to the rich. Just like is happening in the good ole US of A!

janis be not so quick to condemn IMO and look at the causes of this violence - all the causes - yes hard for folks who have a predetermined outlook to do, but please do try!

PQ; utter drivel>

So janis dear - you think there is no underlying cause for this eruption - that they are just plain thugs? Well why does Britain have so many thungs them?

I'd say to you that you are reacting blindly, without an iota of thought, to what has occured and some of its underlying causes.

Yes dear rather myopic

and here is what alanrow said on another thread:

paraphrasing - that Cameron and a buddy used to smash up pubs and restaurants when they were young - yet I suppose Janis and her ilk would not think that any reason to not elect him PM and thus excellerate the dispairty of wealth in the U.K. as Cameron has slashed social welfare spending and giving it quite transparently to the rich. Just like is happening in the good ole US of A!

janis be not so quick to condemn IMO and look at the causes of this violence - all the causes - yes hard for folks who have a predetermined outlook to do, but please do try!

"send in Cholmondley Warner on a spear!"

Hoping CW is safe.

I would like to know a lot more about the British educational system and whether it gives any time to social and moral values. Or is this left to the state religion?

One of my colleauges found her car windows smashed when she got back to Redhill station last evening. Senseless.

Glad to hear you are okay jamikins. Agree with all who said install curfew, use rubber bullets, smart water etc to get it under control.

Good luck to you LOndonYank and all of you in England.

Having seen some of this in Vancouver during the "hockey riots" I am thinking a large number of these people do it sheerly for the robbing and the thrill of running wild with no consequences.

Many of the people involved in Vancouver's incident came from middle class homes with everything and some have quite openly stated that it was the most fun day of their lives.

Alan, NI have already offered their water cannons but they have been refused - the marching season is July when there were riots but the riots were similar to London, as the people rioting were youngsters, druggies etc.

Initially the police reacted the same way as the Met (they were afraid of the community and media, considering rubber bullets/water cannon as being heavy handed). The community stood up and supported the police in whatever measures it needed to restore order.

This is what the police in England need to do. London had a sort of curfew during WW2 and it lasted 5 years.

Support the police to do their job and ignore the media response. Let them use rubber bullets, tear gas (no innocent bystander will be in the vicinity when there are riots), water cannons and their Taser Guns to restore law and order.

I really don't care if some of these thugs are injured or indeed killed - serves them right. We as a country are broke the world economy is going down the tubes, people have lost businesses, other have lost their jobs in Curry's etc because of this and lots and lots of people are frighted. Get them of the streets by whatever means.

PQ - while I agree there are people with genuine socially caused problems - and I spent 20 years living on one of these estates and have first hand experience of this - these riots are not really about that. Some people just choose to act like this given any opportunity. And stupid. At the very least even if they are doing this out of social injustice, haven't they heard of 'don't poo where you eat?'. It's a sad fact that a lot of young men just enjoy behaving this way. Out of my friends when we were all teenagers we had a couple of them who would go to any trouble/fight/protest/riot they could and just plain old loved it. One used to go hunt-sabbing just so he could cause trouble, not because he had the slightest interest in hunting. One burgled a church. They grew out of it but there was no reason for it other than they thought this was fun.

Anyhoo - Londoners fight back : http://www.metro.co.uk/news/871843-london-riots-clapham-clean-up-broom-picture-goes-viral-as-londoners-defy-looters

Excellent.

One of my colleauges found her car windows smashed when she got back to Redhill station last evening.>>

what can that have been a protest about - a lack of branches of Pret a Manger?

though of a distinctly liberal persuasion, I too find myself coming over all Daily Mail as another poster put it.

never mind about any supposed grievances, we live in a democratic society where things are decided by the vote. these are not peaceful protesters, they are greedy thugs. impose a curfew, get out the water cannon, and the tasers, and restore law and order.

There, i've said it. now I need to go and lie down in a darkened room.

The Clapham clean up pictures are great.

And even watching the news very late last night I saw glaziers and council workers out at about 1:00am starting the clean- up.

Good effort!

PQ: You are just getting sillier and sillier--

"So janis dear - you think there is no underlying cause for this eruption - that they are just plain thugs?"

Yep -- 95% of them. Pure and simple. The same as what the Mayor of Philly described when he just announced a 9PM curfew in his fair city. And mayor Nutter can't possibly be described as a tory/right winger - wouldn't you agree??

"I'd say to you that you are reacting blindly, without an iota of thought"

idjit!

"Yes dear rather myopic"

nope - I have very good eyesight

"janis be not so quick to condemn IMO and look at the causes of this violence . . ."

jeeze Louise!

Everybody in London -- stay in an be safe (oh, and yes, be sure to understand where those poor/misguides dears are coming from . . .)

Our CW is in the middle of it. Says he's fine, but angry. They've apparently bussed in hundreds of England's police force to help.

"send in Cholmondley Warner on a spear!"

He's been in there with his trusty truncheon for the past two nights and again tonight.

It's kicking off in Camberwell now.

My DD who lives close by texted me about an hour ago to tell me she was leaving the area to stay with friends in north London, a supposedly quiet residential area called Haggerston.

She says in her text... "This is so mental. Round the corner from where I live is going off. Fires, looting, it feels unreal. Almost like it's happening in a different country. xx"

But when I left work at 5pm in a quiet sleepy remote Cotswold town, there were hordes of teenagers on a street corner, though that doesn't necessarily mean anything - but it is unusual. A friend in Worcester says there is a great feeling of unrest there today. I think there could well be copycat riots in virtually any town centre tonight. This seems pretty much to be about greed and getting what you can while laughing at the ineffectual police. I reckon only a tiny minority would even know the name of the man whose death sparked all this off in the first place.

BTW, it's Mark Duggan.

PalenQ:

There may be causes for disturbances like this BUT there are no excuses.

Many people grow up poor, disadvantaged, not very white - in less-than-desirable neighbourhoods. Most of them have enough sense not to trash their neighbourhoods and steal stuff on some trumped-up excuse (raging granny is right).

I am with the law-and-order crowd on this one. Examine the causes later, stop the rioting now.

This might make you smile, I did...

Daughter's friend is keeping a cast iron frying pan by his front door - just in case!

That reminds me of my first apartment, julia...

My dad bought me a baseball bat for protection. yeah. right. lol

Its still eerily quiet here in Woolwich (knock on wood) so fingers crossed. They have pretty much stopped all transit to the area so its very quiet.

I am sad to hear about Camberwell. Will the madness ever stop?

Hope you have a better night tonight jamie. Sleep well.

Agree with Julia, go to bed and sleep well, don't dwell on what might happen.

I hope all is quiet with you tonight and all other Londoners.

From Fodors Friends on Facebook, I read that CW is doing crosswords in Putney, waiting for it all to go nuts. He says 'it's quiet. Too damn quiet.'

He also says Haggerston where my DD is should be safe as it's a quiet residential area with no shops to attract the nutters.

Nevertheless, it is good to hear from those affected or near the riots that they are okay. Have a good night - or at least as quiet as it can be.

I also would not put too much pressure on the police.
From what it visible on news coverage, many do not sport what I know as riot-proof body armor, and they lack the most common riot-control tools, esp. water cannons and tear gas.
Rubber bullets and tasers are of little use in a mob of dozens or hundreds, esp. in the dark.
And, even if you dropped those tools on the police force, if there had been no first-hand practice, there will be not much success.
It's like saying, give 'em all motorbikes, when only 10pct had experience in driving on 2 wheels.
Or like complaining about the NYPD not handling an earthquake as efficiently as the LAPD or SFPD.

There is no push-button, turn-key solutions to stop riots. You can just try to contain the aggression, split them up, isolate the leaders (if there are any in that function).

What really surprised me was that so many rioters didn't even care to wear masks and even on newscasts you could identify their faces. Assuming that most if not all had been aware of the presence of CCTVs at almost every building, I wonder why the chose to take such a risk. Or if CCTVs can prevent more than shoplifting. Will make it easier for the police, though it's quite common knowledge that those who are not arrested in the course of the action will not face many consequences later as evidence from CCTV must be quite strong to seperate them from a by-stander who just got caught between the lines of fire.

Well, even with regular unrests once in a while, neither Paris nor Berlin or Athens have dropped from the face of the earth yet. As long as there is no loss in human lifes, damages can be repaired, windows can be replaced, and rubbish can be cleaned up.

CW says they haven't got guns. Nothing more lethal than a stick.

Hope he and all other policemen are safe tonight.

CW says they haven't got guns. Nothing more lethal than a stick."

He's probably gloating at the overtime he's making

nothing more lethal than a stick???

Then why is one person dead from a gunshot wound and many buildings last night set on fire with petrol bombs? Does he not accept petrol bombs as lethal weapons?

He might be better employed out on the streets confronting these mobs instead of doing crosswords at tax layers expense.

Payers!

This is an interesting thread to read. I won't comment because as an American, I have nothing to comment on. Thanks for the points of view and the information.

Cambe, shut up, you have no idea what it's like to be here right now

And in Pensacola...

Per breaking news:
"Over the weekend a gas station clerk's car was set on fire after she says she refused to sell some guys some beer. "

Oh the humanity.

LondonYank, been there got the tee shirt.

The police have got to take action

cambe: "nothing more lethal than a stick???

Then why is one person dead from a gunshot wound and many buildings last night set on fire with petrol bombs? Does he not accept petrol bombs as lethal weapons?"

It seems you misunderstood the post that upset you. It isn't the yobs that have nothing more lethal than a stick -- it is the police . . .

Oh really, Helen? You seem quite savvy about London

Times like these I yearn to hear from CW.

Best wishes from here to him, via those who keep in contact.

Hope everyone stays safe tonight. Feels like it is a bit of a waiting game ... will it be us next?

julia - hope your daughter is away from any riots and do pass on regards to CW

cambe, he's been out in the streets confronting the mobs for the last two nights - he's currently ready and waiting to go back out again tonight depending on whatever tonight brings. At taxpayer expense? Yes, protecting those same taxpayers.

My apologies, thank you Janis, I did misunderstand the post.

julia, for your daughter:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/254755_10100142848043307_13609417_47759900_7992856_n.jpg

Helen - hope that t-shirt still fits

just watching the pics from london on our hotel room telly.

some are surreal - a bloke riding his bike seemingly indifferent to the mayhem going on around him, young teenage girls weeping having been caught up in it [what were they doing there in the first place?] a man leading a small child down the street whilst behind him, youths are throwing things at the police.

and cowboy is right- many of them seem easily identifiable from CCTV/TV pics.

my DD has just moved to Bristol, but is back home in Cornwall house-sitting for us, thank goodness.

stay safe out there, folks.

Per CW, with his permission:

"Thank them and tell them that I'm about to kit up and go to war. We have a shout..Report

4:01pmkilt up?awesome.make sure you wear a shield!. (Me)

4:02pmRiot kit. weapons etc. We're on standyby now - ie we need to be ready to go at one minutes notice. I only get a little shield cos I'm an attack robot.Or do you mean a box?.

"Then why is one person dead from a gunshot wound"

Apparently it's just a "normal" crime, nothing to do with the riots.

Thanks Zelphia,
keep us updated, he's a good bloke

I told him what you said, Michel.

It can't hurt.

Helpful suggestion from today's Sydney Morning Herald on dispersing the rioters - play Roger Whittaker over public loudspeakers.

godalmighty, farrermog, that would send anyone running.

Sydneysiders are ruthless

Good news at last - the civilian counter-insurgency is mobilising

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/new-brooms-clean-up-london-as-social-media-vigilantes-track-looters-20110810-1ilif.html

tom42 and palenq

For an underclass, one need look no further than the Jews of Nazi Germany.

Those Jewish Germans, who were continuously and zealously oppressed and ultimately murdered, en masse, by the government charged with their protection, did not break shop windows. Rather, they had their shop windows broken, instead (Krystallnacht - Night of Broken Glass.)

So history doesn't necessarily support your thesis that people riot because they are oppressed.

Actually, as that video of a young man in London being mugged by men pretending to help him rather suggests they quite like to wield corrupt power themselves.

http://tinyurl.com/3vtvdcm

I know it won't happen, but I wish they would ban "hoodies" - by that I mean the hooded sweatshirts etc that these rioters are wearing. The shopping centre in Maidenhead and the larger mall in Reading banned them years ago - it cut down a lot on problems/crimes within the shopping centres.

Small, alcohol fueled "mini riots" (drunken brawls with mild to moderate injuries) popped up on most week-ends in Maidenhead. These were bad enough (they tended to happen around the train station, a fun thing to encounter if you were coming back from a day in London), what the UK is going through now is horrific.

Re the car burnings, in the suburban Berkshire pocket where we used to live, a car was stolen from our former neighbours, taken for a joy ride, left down the street around 4 am and set on fire. It burned down to the frame. A few house windows were broken; so were the side view mirrors of several cars parked outside. This is a middle-class neighbourhood, not a poverty-stricken inner city, Palq, what's your excuse for the kids who did this?

And of course why is it that only a very small minority of 'the oppressed' feel the need to act like this? The parents of some of these charmers would be much more justified venting their grievances and yet it is some of those same parents who have conspicuously stood up to the young thugs. So it's hardly a class thing.

i'll bet that these thoughtless hoodies have absolutely no concern that they are robbing dozens of white, middle class britons of the pleasure of coming to fodors and being smug. don't they realise that nobody can come here and lecture americans on their problems when britain is burning.

come on people if we don't stop this, white middle class britons like flanny will have nothing to do with their time and no outlet for their aggressions. soon they will be on the streets with the hoodies unless we let them get back to teaching the americans about 'civilised society'.

let's think a little and stop this nonsense. why can't we all just get along?

"let's think a little and stop this nonsense. why can't we all just get along?"

because of smug little turds like you whose only purpose on Fodor's appears to be to irritate other people - no matter what the topic of discussion, the seriousness of the matter.

You don't like it here? Go somewhere elese or stop whining.

""So janis dear - you think there is no underlying cause for this eruption - that they are just plain thugs?"

Of course there's an underlying cause: deliberately organised crime.

Based on encrypyted texts through Blackberry Messenger (how many poor people can afford the subscription to a Blackberry?), sent to pre-organised distribution lists, then randomly sent on to anyone else.

PalQ's patronising crap implies the poor are incapable of moral judgements. No doubt reflecting the arrogant world view of middle class Yank tossers like him.

But profoundly offensive to those of us who grew up dirt poor and DIDN'T go round in gangs destroying businesses built up by immigrants, or burning people's homes.

The underlying cause of that criminality has nothing to do with "social conditions" (today: infinitely more affluent in the neighbourhood the criminals spent last night burning down than they were when I grew up in it).But it's got a very great deal to do with supporters of crime like PalQ, who've spent the past half century telling these spoilt brats they've every right to steal, terrorise and kill.

And as long as PalQ continues to act as he mouthpiece for this pernicious nonsense, I suggest other posters boycott his destructive gibberish.

Well, Blackberrys are now relatively inexpensive thanks to iPhones. They seem to be the smartphone of choice for hoodies.

cambe, he's been out in the streets confronting the mobs for the last two nights - he's currently ready and waiting to go back out again tonight depending on whatever tonight brings. At taxpayer expense?" And he isn't getting overtime!!

Avalon, I have already apologised. I misread the post. I read it that the THUGS has nothing but sticks and the police were making light of it not the other way around. That was what made me angry. My heart goes out to all the police all over the country, I understand many were injured last night.

I will contact fodors and get my post removed.

walkinaround - not all of us Brits are smug and ignorant to Americans. As someone who just lived through the riots in my backyard I find your post quite offensive and insensitive.

Well glad to report that in my neighbourhood it was all quiet last night. This is likely due to the complete shut down of town centre and transit at 2pm. I hear it spread to other cities and my heart goes out to them. Lets all pray they get this under control soon.

I actually should not have said these people are acting like animals because I think animals are much better than these people. In fact I think animals are quite orderly.

I am just confused as to why the police are not shooting their knee caps off.

This is not about protesting, it is about a general 'underclass' taking the opportunity to finally get out and do what they have been wanting to do for a while.

"Well, Blackberrys are now relatively inexpensive thanks to iPhones"

The monthly subscription is unaffordable to anyone relying entirely on unemployment benefit or any other form of social security.

EVERYONE receiving encrypted messages from Blackberry Messenger (or able to afford a monthly iPhone subscription) is employed, living on a private income or relying on the proceeds of crime. They cannot be stealing and burning - and in Birmingham, now murdering - because of "massive unemployment of minority youth"

BTW: try telling London's Irish, Poles, Hindus, Sikhs or Chinese about "massive unemployment of minority youth"

More on this "underlying cause" bullshit:

From BBC 5 Live: 1132 this morning:

"the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon"

You couldn't make it up.

Sorry Flanneur - where did I say that these rioters were unemployed or relying on benefits?

flanneruk :"how many poor people can afford the subscription to a Blackberry?"
LondonYank: "Well, Blackberrys are now relatively inexpensive thanks to iPhones"
flanneruk: The monthly subscription is unaffordable to anyone relying entirely on unemployment benefit or any other form of social security

Ever tried living on British dole?

Thought not.

Blackberries is Britain's youth preferred type of mobile phone. It's not a device for a few well-off organized crime mobsters, but BB's messenger is popular among kids as they save a tonne compared to texting.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/market-data/communications-market-reports/cmr11/uk/1.39
Times when the Crackberry was the businessman's expensive status symbol and incurred hefty fees for its services are gone. You can't deduct status from ownership any longer.

Back to square one:
Why did they do it? And why not earlier, and not until now? Someone whose preferred pastime occupation is rioting and looting will probably not sit around for five years as a model citizen and wait for the "big day"?

Thesis (not meant as a summary of "truths"):
During the economic crisis, model citizens like politicians, economists, bankers and brokers stole billions of (insert local currency) from the public. Think bail-outs. That's people's money pumped into commercial enterprises (usually those type of enterprises which were not to keen to pay taxes), while the management who drove the business in the ditch went to Barbabos with a fat bonus.
Cities and communities squandered and dumped their citizen's taxes in Islandic funds or financial instruments they had no clue about. What kind of justice had been delivered to those city councils or councillers? Anyone gone to jail?

What kind of message society been sending to the youth?
Respect your neighbor's property?
Work hard and you will be rewarded?
If you do wrong or perform badly you will suffer consequences?

Or was the last three years more a story of many losers, and a few winners. And the winners were those who gave a f*ck about morals and manners and all that paper-thin cr*p we call civilized behaviour.

I'm pretty sure that those young people know darn well that they commit crimes and steal and wreck other people's property. But they also don't give a f*ck about what others think of it.

It's not about finding cheap excuses for one person burning (and potentially harming and killing) another person's flat or shop. Frankly, I don't see any excuses, and the looters don't exactly look like poor misguided babies.
In fact, they have understood quite well on what kind of behaviour the society in 2011 is based upon.
But just a shot in the knee caps might not be a sustainable solution for the problem.

Ah, an interesting and thought provoking post after a long dry spell. Thanks, cowboy.

Ah, an interesting and thought provoking post after a long dry spell. Thanks, cowboy.

Thank you Cowboy for demonstrating my point.

Flanneur, ever tried pricing out blackberry plans?

Thought not

<< "the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon"

You couldn't make it up. >>

Actualy you can - she is a he and is a teaching assistant - or should that be WAS a teaching assistant.

But it puts a rather big hole into the "feckless feral youth" theory put forward by many.

My theory is simple - most will turn out to have a clean record and got involved in the heat of the moment - just like a drunk doing something stupid. They're still guilty though

I agree completely with AlanRow. My favourite picture from the riots is the girl in a Currys uniform sitting outside Currys in handcuffs. She looted her own place of employment.

Thank you, Cowboy, for that very interesting, reasoned post.

Very thoughtful post Cowboy1968!

it really can be summed up in one short sentence: This is what happens when a country breaks the social contract, mindless violence on all sides ...

Seems that some want their "fair share" of the trillions that was looted from the underclasses without so much as a blink of the eye. You just don't give up the just certain rules of law when some are ignored. If some, the elite, the banksters and others can say, "I don't care what the rules are, I'm taking" and are not held accountable, why then cannot others say the same?

Continue to ignore the social problems and they will rise up and bite you right where it hurts. The mindlessness is that it hurts them even worse because they are burning and looting their own neighborhoods, neighbors and themselves while the others came out ahead.

Cowboy1968

I don't dispute anything you say about the banksters. The 'take what you can get' attitude is well ensconced in high places.

But the clear implication of your post is that these people who are rioting are somehow distinct from their victims, wh by and large were also harmed by the failure to impose justice on the banksters.

It is often alleged that the poor and/or the youth have nothing to lose. I disagree: they have a lot to lose from social disorder, far more than the banksters who as you have pointed out have such immense power, that they can arrange things to their liking, including private police forces and security services. The poor can lose far more than the program spending cuts you have already indicated. They can lose their own neighbourhoods, indeed they are going to wake up in a few days and find that there is no longer even the diversion of looking in a shop window or going to the pub - because they have destroyed both. They can lose their collective sense of safety (it is fun to riot when one can assume one's targets won't fight back: a lot less fun should this rioting wind sow a whirlwind. )

The notion that there is nothing to lose implies that barbarism is preferable to civilisation when the latter doesn't give one what one wants or even all that one needs. I doubt proponents of such an idea appreciate what real barbarism, as it was known in centuries past just about everywhere, and which is alive and well in Mogadishu today, is like. Forget arguments about how affordable, or not, is a Blackberry: Blackberry, the Internet, these are not civilisation itself, but they are the results of civilisation. The average person cannot forage in the woods for the batteries needed to power such devices, much less can he/she create the technology of the iPhone or Blackberry itself. The confidence, the belief in laws, the philosophies that make creation and maintenance of such things as Internet and Twitter possible, are the very things under attack when events such as these riots happen. You can't expect to beat at the threshold of civilisation, and still expect the results of it to be there EITHER in the morning for you to buy, or at night for you to steal.

But I agree wholeheartedly that shooting out kneecaps, etc., would be a disastrous move. So far there has been much loss of property (and this is not so trivial) but at the same time, no loss of life a la what is going on in Libya. Hope, like civilisation, is fragile, and this is shot out along with kneecaps, should things get to such a stage.

Interesting analysis, I am sure that is part of it! I have always thought the society here was a bit broken, but then thought maybe its just more noticeable because there are more people.

But why here? The US also bailed out their banks and had similar increases in unemployment and will have to cut things. Why here and why now?

Part of me things this is just a bunch of morons taking advantage of a situation to loot and get free stuff. Some of these kids - under 16 - wont understand the economic issues enough to organize a mass looting surely. I can see how some of the older youth might, but it isnt the whole answer.

I always thought it was interesting that Britain spreads out the underpriveleged throughout all boroughs, rather than the N. American way of having ghettos or slums. Perhaps thats what made this so scattered throughout the city - it wasnt contained in a certain area, but in every borough the disenchanted coming out and showing their anger. Perhaps it started out like that and then others joined in when they saw that police werent able to stop it?

Whatever the cause - a big thank you to all those police officers out there doing a tough job, CW and everyone else. It is very appreciated and we know how tough your job is.

"The 'take what you can get' attitude is well ensconced in high places."

Indeed - just look at the current PM who was happy to take nearly £2000 per month from the taxpayer to pay for his mortgage and who in his youth committed similar crimes to the rioters - and his friend Boris (the mayor of London) has admitted to arson. But these people were not prosecuted because their victims were bribed to keep quiet.

How can you have respect when the top two politicians in the country should have been jailed for serious crimes.

That is shameful alanRow, I didnt know that. What a sad state of affairs.

And now for a bit of levity:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/policing-seems-to-work-201108104177/

www.photoshoplooter.tumblr.com

PQ; utter drivel>

Well Janis before you call what I said - that there was also a sociological component to the violence - like youth unemployment and disenfranchisement that could have cause the outbreak to spread so much

please dear read this article in today's NYTimes: London Riots Put the Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain"

and you will see that I am not alone in saying there are endemic underlying causes to these riots - folks like you who only see Britain from the upper crust levels of fancy restaurant, chauffered driven cars and fancy hotels just miss out on what the lower class in MO a still very class-driven society - what their lives are all about - and it ain't taking High Tea in some snooty tea room either.

I always stay in East London - right in the bowels of the working class areas and see aimless youth - can't get a job, laying around all day.

So janis before saying that my take on these sociological facotrs being a cause - retorting to me that my comments are 'utter drivel' read this article and others that support what my take is - and it is not utter drivel and if British authorities think the same as you then they will be doomed to have many repititions of recent events. Get out of your Ivory Tower and see more of the lower class life IMO.

Interesting post Cowboy...

Another one that gave me a chuckle (and I am in no way taking away from what happened - just thought this was cute):

Looting in Cornwall gone Wild:
http://i.imgur.com/C5XQm.gif

Janis - here is the link for NYTimes article referenced above and which IMO you should read to get a better understanding out the current troubles and their underlying causes... enjoy!

ews for London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled ...London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain

New York Times - 15 hours ago
Widespread antisocial and criminal behavior by young and usually unemployed people has long troubled Britain. Attacks and vandalism by gangs of young people ...14 related articles


►London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths
www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10youth.htmlAdd to iGoogle
London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain. By LANDON THOMAS Jr. and RAVI SOMAIYA. Published: August 9, 2011 ...

Interestingly there are now pics of a Curry's employee (employed!) in her uniform being arrested for looting CURRY'S where she works. (Curry's is a big electronic store)

http://www.andycookeportfolio.com/currys-employee-in-uniform-arrested/

Watching the news, I have only one thought: bring in the troops, shoot the looters!

Hi Jaime- I commented on that upthread. Hysterical!

I just read the first person to appear before a judge for looting was a 31 year old TEACHER> Some great influence she is!

Also an 11 yr old boy , 3 college students and a postman..so these were not all uneducated unemployed yobs more like opportunist and common thieves!

"how can you have respect when the top two politicians in the country should have been jailed for serious crimes."

Because personally I don't make my moral or life decisions based on what anyone else is doing, least of all hack politicians. Lame lame lame.

Mob behaviour is a topic of endless study, where people who would NEVER do certain things normally will do them in a mob situation. "If those 20 people just walked away with a flat screen TV, shouldn't I be entitled to a free one as well"

Difficult dilemma if you are not a saint.

Seems like Britain needs their version of Bull Connor or the first Mayor Daley. Heads should roll- literally.

"Seems like Britain needs their version of Bull Connor"

Oy gevalt.

<Because personally I don't make my moral or life decisions based on what anyone else is doing, least of all hack politicians>

Well SAID Fidel..

Sue

I agree.
It makes no sense from a logical point of view that a poor person living in a poor neighborhood destroys the last bit of what is "home" to him and his neighbours.
You would assume that a poor person would rather rob, loot, and destroy an affluent neighborhood, steal real valuables (for most of us, a flatscreen TV isn't exactly a luxury good), and torch a Rolls-Royce instead of his neighbor's Fiesta. Not that that would be any better!

Yet, as kerouac said, mob behaviour has its own rules.

I read an interesting piece on the Guardian in which one eyewitness described the situation at the location where he was like a "carnival" - people with different colors of skin merrily looting side by side, spectators who brought their kids to the scene, looking as if they were not sure whether to join in or not, everyday people who - what he said - would not have looted themselves but also would not have hesitated to pick up a blue-ray player that someone else had dropped.

I'm sure that it was no "carnival" at all for those not interesting in wrecking their own neighborhood and who were sitting at home, scared to death probably.

May you live in interesting times.. sure is a curse.

Watching the news, I have only one thought: bring in the troops, shoot the looters!>

If that is a serious suggestion that is the most daft and stupid suggestion yet IMO - it would cause a 100 fold increase in violence for sure - frightening that someone would think that was solve everything. Maybe it should be done in Barcdelona where street crime is endemic every day all day but not in London where the streets IME are usually every safe, even in dicey places like Tottenham.

And why did David Cameron smash up pubs and cafes when he were young? He had no economic reason to do so so his crime was really much worse. And now he talks about cracking down on the looters - same thing he did without any need.

Q- Why are not the young folks in Oxbridge or Eton rioting and looting - because they have all the stuff that looks so enticing to the unemployed disadvantage youth - stuff they can only dream about.

These riots only show what a real class difference there is in the U.K. (As there is in the U S of A also for sure - we've had our riots and will have more as long as a certain segment of society is kept out of the economic mainstream. And since Cameron's actions are increasing the gulf of incomes and opportunities by his slashing spending on social programs expect even more ire and riots whenever some daft cop makes a stupid mistake as clearly the case here.

just look at the current PM who was happy to take nearly £2000 per month from the taxpayer to pay for his mortgage and who in his youth committed similar crimes to the rioters - and his friend Boris (the mayor of London) has admitted to arson>>

mmmm - The PM's claiming his mortgage payments for his 2nd home [because of his being an MP] was perfectly legal at the time. and Boris did not, so far as I'm aware, burn down any furniture stores. Context is everything. if you go out during a riot and start looting shops for a flat screen telly, what sort of a protest is that? are you telling me that they were all thinking "those bent MPs [who HAVE been prosecuted and sent to prison BTW] got away with it [they didn't] so why can't I?"

no of course they weren't. They were thinking "I want a flat screen TV"

Cowboy

I agree that if they looted 'another' neighbourhood, it would seem more logical. But my point was that the poor suffer most from social breakdown, even if the breakdown were to be 'logical'. From the point of view of supply and demand, it makes no difference what stores are looted: whereas the rich can always secure supply, the poor are least equipped to deal with the pressures that result when a given population suddenly finds itself competing for a reduced amount of stores and services. Bars and shops across the city will become more crowded, with a possible attendant rise in prices. This in itself can cause frustrations leading to riotous behaviour when the opportunity presents itself.

A friend and I were discussing the stories that came out of the May 7-8 1945 VE-Day riot in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

There are various theories that were advanced, after the fact, as to why this 2 day riot occurred. Some proposed that the civilians exploited servicemen during the war, who then took their revenge at the war's close. But this is an unsatisfactory explanation, since everyone was inconvenienced for 6 years by the war, which saw the city see huge demands placed on an infrastructure that was never designed to support such a sudden influx of people. Halifax, not an especially large city at the time, became a key port for the trans-Atlantic convoys, and for marshalling troops onto ships. 25,000 servicemen poured into a city of population 60,000. Services were oversubscribed, and local inflation soared.

My own view: Here was a riot that broke out, not because of any selective deprivation (because the sailors that started it off were not especially deprived, relative to the rest of the population) but because people were exhausted from the constant competition for services over the past 6 years, the constant petty deprivations. They were frustrated and bored, wished to continue to party, and the authorities, in an ill-considered move, closed the bars to try and force them to go home. Much looting followed, especially of liquor and beer, but also of other goods. Windows were smashed by the hundreds, as if they were wine glasses. The sailors meanwhile were joined by civilians. It continued the next night, because naval command refused to believe how suddenly discipline had broken down.

Your Guardian piece is interesting, especially given that the current behaviour of the stock markets reminds us that prices are not entirely based on fundamentals, as pundits would have us believe, but also on what people believe others around them in the market are thinking or even just feeling. So too perhaps are social codes of conduct generally stable, but are suddenly prone to 'fluctuate' with little - just like prices on the market during a panic such as the one happening now. Behaviour that was held within a certain range of values suddenly varies much, much more wildly in a riot. Volatility is exciting - a carnival - until your own 'stock' is what suddenly is deemed up for 'review' by the herd.

They were thinking "I want a flat screen TV>

yes indeedy and they know that is the only way they can, in the current UK, get one - it is a symbol for their piece of the pie that they think they are being deied.

Fallacy - that each and everyone of those young unemployed or under emplyed youth would not willingly take a good paying job and probably work very hard and then be able to buy their huge TV - but that avenue is closed - meanwhile folks in gated estates in the Cotswalds get grants to increase their businesses, etc. Until the hi-falutin folks in the Cotswolds start giving up some of their too big pie this will happen - and Cameron is all about re-distreibuting the wealth to the Cotswold types - expect more and more such anti-social behaviours IMO

oops, meant to say, that social codes of conduct might be generally stable, but are suddenly prone to fluctuate with little **warning**.

Well PalenQ how much of your pie are you willing to give up?
You have some serious problems of your own in the U.S. regarding disparity between income groups.

As for unemployed poor youth being the main ones looting have you seen some of the people they've arrested? Many of them have jobs, some of them looted from their own places of employment, talk about fouling your own nest.
I'm sure there is some element of truth to the argument that many of these people feel disenfranchised and hopeless, however there seems to be an awful lot of them who are just taking advantage of the opportunity to run wild and get stuff for free. And who ever said that having a big screen t.v. or a mobile phone was a basic human right? There seems to be a sense of entitlement now that wasn't there in previous generations.
Lots of people I know grew up dirt poor and never would have dreamed of looting and robbing to get "stuff", that was what thieves did.
None of the looters I have seen in the photos look like they are in rags or going without meals.

Also how do you know that these people would ALL willingly take a job and work very hard? And your caveat was "a good paying job"...again an expectation there seems to be among young people everywhere these days to have their first job be a "good paying job", whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up?
There's that sense of entitlement again.

It seems mostly quiet tonight-at least for friends in London. Interesting to hear US perspective. I've heard some radio chat shows here in the US where callers have said the riots wouldn't be as bad in here because shopowners can arm themselves and protect property.


However, the looters over here would probably also have guns making for an even more toxic mix.

Just hope the worst is over.

"You reap what you Sow"..

So true, undoubtedly these parents did not do a good job teaching their kids that stealing and destroying other people lifehood is Bad and if you want something you must earning it by working not by stealings.

http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2011/08/11/foto/gb_i_bambini_saccheggiatori-20313038/1/

<<I've heard some radio chat shows here in the US where callers have said the riots wouldn't be as bad in here because shopowners can arm themselves and protect property.>>

I don't know to what extent that is true Emily. During the infamous Watts (Los Angeles) riots in the 60's, I don't recall that armed shopowners made much of a difference.

It's interesting that after the catastrophe in Japan this year there wasn't any looting - I do think it is a cultural expectation that is taught

Cuktural expectations and also teaching the kids to have respect of other peoples propety.

Probably as a sign of cross-channel solidarity a few cars got torched in Berlin last night. Didn't make any headlines, though. The capital is used to frequent treats of anarchy

Since I can't shed any light on this situation I'm going to agree with all of you, however mutually contradictory.

The "Catnick" and "Cornwall looting" photos seem to deepen my understanding as much as anything.

I was rather stunned today to read that Cameron has raised the possibility of appointed an American -- William J. Bratton -- to head Scotland Yard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/world/europe/12britain.html?hp

That should be: appointing

I started a thread here in the Lounge and also in the US forum regarding activist are planning on disrupting our SF/Bay Area service starting at 5:00PM tonight. The official announcement is in the SF Chronicle website.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/11/BAF91KMA5Q.DTL&tsp=1

"I was rather stunned today to read that Cameron has raised the possibility of appointed an American -- William J. Bratton -- to head Scotland Yard."

The idea isn't stunning really. Bratton has a CBE for service to UK police. He is very well known/connected in UK police circles.

Thanks, Janis,
I wasn't aware of that. What did he do to get the CBE?

Just wait until the alienated progeny of corporate looters start hitting the streets.

<<Since I can't shed any light on this situation I'm going to agree with all of you, however mutually contradictory.>>

Thank you, stokebailey - that was the funniest thing I've read on Fodors in quite a while.

Rupert Murdoch and the paranoid owner of Fox News have done far more damage to the UK and the US by manipulation of politics through the media than these pathetic thugs could ever do.

For a great comment, go to http://www.patcondell.net/

Britain and London needs a Super Cop from Boston and before murdertown LA to help teach British cops how to handle gangs and thugs?

Now that gives me a big laugh - soon all British cops will be armed with live ammo - after all 1 in 3 Brits in some Murdoch rag paper's poll said the flics should have used live ammo to quell recent riots - yeh that would restore order quick and make London more like Baghdad.

British police are not the problem - the problem is more sociological than most Brits here, the huge majority no doubt from the upper crusts of British society - would care to even think is possible.

Onward thru the fog and then expect such anti-social behaviours to exacerbate themsleves.

a fish rots from the head - in this case former thug himself David Cameron - himself from a flithy rich background.

"most Brits here, the huge majority no doubt from the upper crusts of British society - would care to even think is possible."

Bizarre. Is it paint thinners season again?
The only "upper crust" member I can think of is no longer here, and that is only because he went to a posh school.
Number two choice. If my assumptions are correct came from an Anglo Irish Liverpool working class background and worked his way up through a grammar school education (apologies if I am wrong)

The rest of us "regulars" - I don't see many upper crust among us. Not yobs, not oiks but certainly not "posh".

My grandfathers were an Able Seaman and a Dockyard worker turned builder. My father was bright and went to grammar school and worked himself out of the terraced areas of Portsmouth. My siblings and I were the first generation ever to go to University.

Just because we don't necessarily agree with your trans-Atlantic analysis of all the UK's problems, doesn't mean that we are all "of too high a social class to understand" - maybe you are incorrect and the problems are more complex than the simplistic "uprising of the oppressed"

I doth recant my allegations of most here, like most Americans here, are in the upper tiers of society - should have said in the comfy zone, unlike the poor slobs in dreary parts of dreay British large cities. Upper crust was not a good term - I should have said comfy. In any case only a handful show ANY sympathy for the plights of the lower classes and just cannot seem to think why they may be revolting - well they are revolting to most Brits here but...

I'll accept comfy

Politically, I am pretty much the wet Liberal. I have a great deal of sympathy for those caught in the poverty trap, for those who are struggling to better themselves, for many who can see no way out. I have no sympathy whatsoever for those who think looting televisions and robbing diners in restaurants is some sort of political statement.

The "Catnick" and "Cornwall looting" photos seem to deepen my understanding as much as anything.>>

????

stoke - just got back off holiday, and accounts of Cornwall looting have been grossly exaggerated to the point that i see no evidence of it at all.

are we talking Cornwall Mass.? or Cornwall UK?

or did i miss the point? [after no sleep whatever on the boat, that would not be altogether surprising!]

"or did i miss the point?" Yes. See Jamikin's post

"Looting in Cornwall gone Wild:
http://i.imgur.com/C5XQm.gif"

thanks, willit.

I always said that the inhabitants of Cornwall were intelligent.

My grandfathers were an Able Seaman and a Dockyard worker turned builder. My father was bright and went to grammar school and worked himself out of the terraced areas of Portsmouth. My siblings and I were the first generation ever to go to University. >>

same here, willit. my grandparents were a factory worker, a nurse, a policeman and a serving girl, and neither of my parents went to University. [ok, i know that this is beginning to sound like a Monty Python sketch, but you get the idea].

whilst i cannot really claim ever to have known poverty, I've always had to work for a living and come from working class stock.

more to the point, I've represented kids caught up in this sort of thing before, and making a social protest was the last thing on their minds.

explain then why kids from poorer backgrounds I would think at least end up in the dock for anti-social behaviour more than kids from middle class or up backgrounds?

and therein lies perhaps an answer to part of the problem - unless of course there is no difference which I cannot fathom.

Times have changed since your parents brought themselves up by the bootstraps - jobs for seamen and dock workers and sudch as long gone I believe - yes it used to be, like here stateside - that folks could work in say the auto industry and not even with a high school diploma and earn a handsome salary and yes their kids went onto college - the first generation in their families to do so.

but where are these types of jobs now? McDonalds' salary going to let you raise a family in middle class style?

Times have changed and I think it's the same as here - upward mobility has come to a dead halt and us and you will be facing more and more unrest as folks, justly or unjustly, demand more of the pie.

Yes poverty produces thugs who do not care about the welfare of others and will rob and loot if they can - and yes it is not an overt social protest- but that is my main point and I really believe that - as the disparity in incomes becomes greater between middle and lower classes here and over there expect more such behaviors, lamentably IMO as those who do not have have no compunctions against looting.

I am not sure folks can 'work themselves out of poverty' as easily as your grandfather did - a lot lot harder as now physical labor is not in great demand and if it were many of those low lives I think would hop at such jobs and see a future. Now with high-tech jobs demanding an education the most advantaged kids get the upper hand as their parents can afford a good university (no longer free as once was, right?) and tutoring, etc. And thus the class division here and there is becoming IMO much more rigid and harder for poor folks to bring themselves up by their bootstraps.

"explain then why kids from poorer backgrounds I would think at least end up in the dock for anti-social behaviour more than kids from middle class or up backgrounds?"

One huge problem no one likes to acknowledge is the break down of the family unit in the poor communities. There are far too many single mothers raising too many kids. This has been a huge problem in the Black community, but may be on the rise everywhere.

What may be worse is that kids are being raised by their grandmothers who, let's face it, did not do a very good job raising their own sons and daughters. (Hence grandma's involvement with the grandchildren).

But at least the left attacked our former VP for his criticism of Murphy Brown.

FFS Bob - have you been paying no attention at all?

Many of the rioters were in paid employment or studying for top tier degrees (law, accountancy, engineering to name but three, chefs, teachers, social workers). They would hardly be considered desperate or lacking in prospects.

Also, try to understand that 'underclass' and 'working class' are not interchangeable.

Sorry, Ann. I get a kick out of how the gull strolls into the shop all nonchalant and then scurries out with the loot.