Obama bows again

Do you like Ike?

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/11/dwight-d-eisenhower-bowing-hour.html

Nope don't like any president bowing. So don't bother linking all the other presidents who bow cause I'll say the same thing.

Obama was so low it looked like he was looking for something on the ground.

<<Obama was so low it looked like he was looking for something on the ground.>>

Have you seen his salute?

Best damn salute I have EVER seen a President execute.

"You are the president of the United States for gods sake...act like it."

"Nope don't like any president bowing. So don't bother linking all the other presidents who bow cause I'll say the same thing."

So he is acting like the President of the United States, and you still don't like it. Too bad for you.

Maybe he meant a little bow but he's in such good shape he felt like a nice stretch along the way.

I agree with you methuselah, Obama isn't a lacky that has to bow to anyone. I could see a slight bow with the handshake but he's on par with the people he's bowing to, they should bow back or everyone skip it.

thereyet,

I agree...pretty sharp.

This is kind of nit-picking, don't you think? Bow, no bow, too low a bow... I believe it's better to show respect even if it's not returned.

I hated to see it. I know he is young and new to a lot of these things and probably has his own ideas about them, but I feel the President of the US should not bow to anyone.. a Saudi or a Japanese Emperor .. bowing his head maybe but not a full out knock your head on the floor bow.
I sometimes wonder about the people around him who counsel him on things... what is their experience and knowledge ? He needs Letitia Baldrige !!

Evidently you missed my post.

It's called manners.

No bow in return? That's because after 10 years of unbridled hubris, any foreign dignitary would be in shock.

I suppose strolling through a garden holding the hand of a Saudi prince is no cause for alarm.

Obama held hands with a Saudi??

A small bow would have been respectful but like I said, his forehead hit the ground .
Do Other countries leaders bow to him or scrape or anything or is it all handshakes?
I admit I have quit watching for this sort of thing, until the media alerts us all ...

As a person, I would bow in Japan to be polite. As President, it's supposedly not appropriate (because we don't have kings or royalty).

When he bowed to the Saudi King, it seemed that he recognized, after the fact, it wasn't appropriate and tried to deny he bowed.

Now I'm not sure what the excuse is.

After all the BS George W. Bush inflicted on us (and the world), you really want to pick on Obama for bowing? Yikes.

There is no denying this bow.

Well...at least he didn't vomit on the Prime Minister.

He shows respect for members of the military, foreign heads of State, Kings, Emperors....

All the better to get them to listen to him when he ask for their support on matters critical to the US, and the World.

Don't have a problem with that, and see it as a welcome departure from the cowboy diplomacy of the recent past.

thereyet

"That's because after 10 years of unbridled hubris, any foreign dignitary would be in shock"

Obama isn't responsible for that. He should only take on what is his. To dwell in the past is a waste of the present and no one moves on.

Well Peace, it's all they have. When you are running on empty, spits and sputters are par for the course.

<<As President, it's supposedly not appropriate (because we don't have kings or royalty). >>

Do you have a source for that assertion? Or is it just so because some blogger said it was just so?

thereyet

What does this have to do with President Bush?
Can no one find fault with someone new because of someone who is gone now, in the past now, finished ... ?

LOL... oh god, remember that ? that became a nightmare of mine, what if I feel sick? what if I throw up on the host ? lol ...

Well I used to live in Japan and bowing was sort of the equivalent of shaking hands in our culture. That's what you did when you greeted people. Actually there was an elaborate set of rules for bowing that I was never really up on.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

"Bowing is probably the feature of Japanese etiquette that is best-known outside Japan. [Except among right-wing talk radio blowhards, evidently, who excel in the mountain out of molehill construction industry.] Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.

Basic bows are performed with the back straight and the hands at the sides (boys and men) or clasped in the lap (girls and women), and with the eyes down. Bows originate at the waist. Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion and the respect expressed.

Bows can be generally divided into three main types: informal, formal, and very formal. Informal bows are made at about a fifteen degree angle　or just tilt over one's head to the front, and more formal bows at about thirty degrees. Very formal bows are deeper."

I haven't seen the pictures, but it sounds like Obama performed a formal bow, as would make sense in a diplomatic encounter (just like I assume he was wearing a suit and not a t-shirt).

"like I said, his forehead hit the ground"

Really? That's not apparent in the picture.

"As President, it's supposedly not appropriate"

According to whom?

jahoulih, it is called Exaggeration.

According to Protocol, I though .. that is why I used the word "supposedly"...

I should have known better than to comment here, it is impossible to have discussions on any subject to do with politics... please excuse me.

Obama was so low it looked like he was looking for something on the ground.>>

not nearly as low as when he bowed to the Saudi prince (or whomever it was) - then he bent his knee ... and then denied bowing! He has some of the worst luck with his shoelace coming untied at that worst moments and needing to fix it then and there!

I may be wrong but the Emperor of Japan bows to no one and, after all, as many of the oldersters point out, it was his father who was responsible for many of their friends and families being killed. And, no matter how "snappy" his salute his, despite it not being done the first few times he should have and it being a bit weak wristed at first (it does take practice) no American should ever bow or act subserviant (bowing is a sign of submission) to another foreign leader even if he verbalizes he is the "first Pacific President." When he bowed, he bowed for all of us.

Meanwhile, he dillys about the war in Afghanistan, health care reform is teetering, joblesness is rampant and with all the problems here at home, he flys off to the heretofore!

Bill Clinton was excoriated for just nodding his head ... and recetly Hillary was taken to task for wearing a head covering and this guy bows (while shaking hands at the same time! LOL) and then bobs around like a cork in the water when meeting Mrs. Akihito.

But then, shaking hands AND bowing - sounds like he couldn't make up his mind what to do, so did both! TYPICAL



Wonder if he'll do a meet-up with his brother?

"According to whom?"

Glenn Beck... Ya know. The Emily Post of the wingnut world.

<<According to Protocol, I though .. that is why I used the word "supposedly"...>>

Actually you didn't.

beachplum re: "But then, shaking hands AND bowing - sounds like he couldn't make up his mind what to do, so did both! TYPICAL"

Well actually it IS typical - but not in the way you mean.

Wikipedia again:

"When dealing with non-Japanese people, many Japanese will shake hands. Since many non-Japanese are familiar with the custom of bowing, this often leads to a combined bow and handshake which can be quite complicated to execute. Bows may be combined with handshakes or performed before or after shaking hands."

I hope you don't apply for the Foreign Service any time soon.

You're right, I didn't, I thought I did.


I thought all Presidents who take office, follow some sort of Protocol for meeting other heads of State etc... like not touching the Queen etc..
I am sure the Japanese were charmed, but I like the idea that the President of the US does not bow low to anyone, kneel, curtsy or otherwise show deference.
Showing respect is one thing, but not bowing low etc.

I admit I don't follow a lot of Political discussions because it is all ranting and raving and no one ever listens and people like Misinformation say things about talk show hosts as if no one has an original thought, it must come from the tv or radio..which might explain the way she and many other people think but not Everyone.

But I am lucky enough to be living in another country where I don't see that sort of thing on tv nor do I hear anything like it on a radio... so that is someone elses problem, not mine.

I remember Letitia Baldridge and her counseling Presidents on how to greet Heads of State etc ... that is why I thought there was a Protocol for this sort of thing.

Now that I have explained myself way too much, I really will stop posting here now
chau ! Scarlett

Anything in Wikipeedia about the Japanese PM not bowing back? Embarrassing.

The fundamental rule of protocol was laid out by St. Ambrose more than 1600 years ago: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

When I lived in Japan, I bowed. The "depth" of the bows depended on who I was meeting. I would say that BHO and the Emperor are peers and should have equal bows. A bow of the head would have been appropriate. Or, is BHO not equal to the Emperor? Then a deep bow is in order. If I were meeting the emperor, of course I wold give a "fall on the face" bow. It is courtesy, but "overbowing" is as inappropriate (and impolite) as "underbowing." BHO has protocol people and if the

There was no need to bring GWB into this. He is the past. He did plenty of things that were wrong, but blaming him for all of BHO's problems is getting old. We are supposed to be looking forward.

"Anything in Wikipeedia about the Japanese PM not bowing back? Embarrassing."

Anything in Wikipedia about the difference between the PM and the Emperor?"

You're protesting too much. Enjoy.

"Obama held hands with a Saudi??"

Scarlett, is holding hands and kissing a Saudi prince OK? It wasn't Obama!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/HARTWICK26/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_.jpg

If one argues what the President does/did is a break from protocol, then it is appropriate to bring up past practice, which would include anything that President Obama's predecessors did, immediate or otherwise.

That some want to forget what President Bush did, yet dump on President Obama is....no surprise.

thereyet

>>>>>>
What does this have to do with President Bush?
Can no one find fault with someone new because of someone who is gone now, in the past now, finished ... ?
>>>>>>

i agree. what's with america these days? if you criticise obama it means you are a raving gwb fan??? i once criticised an action of israel and i was assumed by an american of being pro-hamas. i said i didn't like cnn and someone assumed i was a fox news fan. i once said that i didn't like harpoon beer and it was assumed that i'm a bud light drinker (and all that is apparently supposed to go with that). is everything black and white and simple? it almost seems like you have two distinct camps and are either a member of one or the other and subscribe to all beliefs of the camp in which you sit. strange.

I'd bet he'd kiss the Pope's ring too. It's PROTOCOL and
it's about time we've shown some of it. At least he didn't give Mrs. Akimoto or whatever her name is a shoulder massage.

Given that Obama bowed to the same height as the Emperor (ie equal ranks as heads of state) surely the answer is simple - elect the SMALLER guy as President

I'm sure all the Repug pundits are smarter than our protocol office.Why bother paying a protocol officer when we can get manner answers from the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush. They probably both chew with their mouths open to shovel it in faster

At what point does holding hands with the Saudi King violate any protocol?

W's dad puking on the prime minister probably wasn't a deliberate act.

The best case of prior examples is Clinton's little bow then denial, maybe that's the precedent Obama wanted to follow.

<<The best case of prior examples is Clinton's little bow then denial, maybe that's the precedent Obama wanted to follow.>>

you obviously didn't look a jah's link above...with Ike bowing to several different people.

thereyet

Scarlett: "but I like the idea that the President of the US does not bow low to anyone, kneel, curtsy or otherwise show deference."

me too. I like the idea of Obama not curtsying to anyone either.

I don't believe Obama has a Letitia Baldridge, since he's surrounded himself with policy wonks on this trip.

walkinaround: "It almost seems like you have two distinct camps and are either a member of one or the other and subscribe to all beliefs of the camp in which you sit. strange."

I agree with you too. Some of us are independents - so we get blasted or embraced by both sides, just depends.

alanRow: "elect the SMALLER guy as President"

Aha! someone who understand the reason for Obama's deep bow! Tall guy, short guy. Tall head must go really far to be slightly lower than short head.

It looks silly when he bows IMO. If the Emporer bows to no one then Obama should be on the same level. Shaking hands with a nod of the head would be good - IMO.

jorr: "Scarlett, is holding hands and kissing a Saudi prince OK? It wasn't Obama!"

Was that a one cheek kiss, a two cheek kiss, or a PECK, PECK, PECK three cheek kiss? Curious minds want to know! Never mind which President, give us the IMPORTANT details!

The picture of Dick Cheney is misleading - he said later he was trying to bow.

I am quite sure that all the President's men do consult with the "experts" at Wikipedia for protocol ... then again, maybe they do ...

A bow is NOT done along with a handshake - one or the other ...

and the Emperor, since he is "g_d" or represents him as the Grande Shinto, or something, bows to no one!

>The best case of prior examples is Clinton's little bow then denial, maybe that's the precedent Obama wanted to follow.<

So now it's Clinton's fault! Clinton was hanged out to dry and then quartered when he dared to nod his head. He did NOT deny doing so - it was BO who denied he "bowed" Don't think he'll do that again this time.

We have an office of Protocol, we pay these guys big money to tell our reps what to do!

http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/

Now a bunch of fodor's posters know better than the officials???

Maybe Obama should have slapped him upside then head and asked What's shaking baby?

Get Real!

Between Japan and China, they hold over 44% of our foreign debt.

See "Foreign Ownership" section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

I think that one ceremonial bow in exchange for their continuing willingness to buy our debt is a small price to pay. Otherwise, how are we going to finance health care at home or foreign wars abroad?

<<< Aha! someone who understand the reason for Obama's deep bow! >>>

I thought it was bleeding obvious

You mean the higher the debt, the deeper the bow? Obama's head will be coming out his rear next visit to Japan.

Kissing and holding hands with Saudi royalty is so much more classy than bowing and showing respect to your hosts.

Bush/Cheney not only enjoyed kissing and holding hands but turning around and bending over for more oil rights in the Middle East.

Too bad that it was actually America that was screwed instead of them.

It's called "Diplomacy". Even the PotUS has to play that game.
Your last one did not have that gift and it didn't take you far

SV

how to bow in Japan:

www.japan-guide.com/e/e2000.html
btw, it is etiquette to respond to a bow in kind. Not doing so is an insult but I'm not sure that the Emperor bows to anyone.

Here's other dignataries:

Chinese President Hu Jintao Visits Japan http://www.life.com/image/81032238

Here's Putin - http://www.life.com/image/56251775

and you knew that HotAir would do its homework. This was too easy! Too bad BO didn't - but then he knows everything and he is the bestest mostest intelligent person in the world who knows everything so he didn't have to!
http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/11/president-obama-vs-rest-of-world.html

They were merely "observing protocol" is the official statement. Yea, right! Doggone it! And I was so looking forward to seeing the First Bump or maybe a High Five!

I guess when the Emperor looked down to avoid eye contact, as is the Japanese custom, he thought that he left his fly open and had to check! <G>

Oh yeah, it was GB who pushed him over - always blaming Bush. Forget him, he's gone. He was duly criticized for his actions at the time they occurred, believe me. So, he's had to accept the consequences.
NOW it's Obama that is on the chopping block. What he does is his own doing. Any criticism that is to be incurred from his own actions should be directed at HIM - not a scape goat that's already been BBQ'd.

I don't like the bowing, the kisses OR the holding hands...

#
alanRow

"<<< Aha! someone who understand the reason for Obama's deep bow! >>>

I thought it was bleeding obvious"

Not to many of us Merkins

"it almost seems like you have two distinct camps and are either a member of one or the other and subscribe to all beliefs of the camp in which you sit. strange."

I've wondered about that too and it's scary. It's almost like a cheat sheet, if you believe ABC then when XYZ comes up you just have to check the list and see what‘s appropriate. But saying that is even too simplistic.

Is this an American thing? Is a human thing that is more prevalent because of the internet. Or is an age thing? Where we become comfortable in our beliefs and our beliefs, no matter how outmoded some of them are, have become such an intrinsic part of us that we don’t want to let go.

Maybe it would be helpful to each of us to go over our “lists” every 6 months and take the other side of the debate.

Question Your Inner Authority!

Obama needs to start acting like a real American President and not some young, inexperienced "step and fetch" clown.

degas, you prefer blood dripping, thieving, sociopaths?

Thereyet - try to stay focused. We are talking about american presidents. None of them fit the dire description you blurted out.

"'step and fetch' clown"

Good grief.

<<None of them fit the dire description you blurted out.>>

Sure he did.

Blood of hundreds of thousands, treasure of a Nation and not another thought about it. He fit that description to a tee.

Stepin Fetchit. You really didn't go there, did you. (There's no question mark there for a reason. I'm not even asking; I'm refusing to believe it.)

I see the usual suspects are trying very hard to play the race card. Sad.

Hello, degas. I do not recall ever responding to your postings of this kind before or, indeed, accusing anyone of racism. But I do admit that I'm dumbfounded at the "step and fetch" allusion. You're an intelligent man from all indicators; I can't accept that you would just randomly write down words without some meaning.

"I see the usual suspects are trying very hard to play the race card. Sad.'"


Sir , you did make a racist comment; no need to blame others for noticing it. Sometimes peoples' real feelings just slip out. I am sure there are many Americans who share your views.

Truly sad.....

"Obama needs to start acting like a real American President and not some young, inexperienced "step and fetch" clown."

degas, your long time hero holds hands and kisses one of the leaders of Saudi Arabia where all of the 9/11 hijackers came from. He did this After everyone knew they came form Saudi Arabia! Who is the "step and fetch" clown?
_______________________________________________

Author: degas
Date: 03/08/2008, 03:18 pm
I think some on this forum are actually a little disappointed that we have not been attacked again. Yeah, I really do.
_______________________________________________

What side of the universe are you from degas? Make up your mind!

I am sick of Obama promoting humility. Why should the president of a great country, and for all its faults, U.S. is a great country, debase himself in front of Saudis, Chinese, etc.

Wow, degas, I wasn't even going to post to this thread, but I can't believe you typed that out and hit the button and then didn't even man up to it, but blamed everyone else for seeing it (it's not like there was some place else that combo of words could have come from). I never saw your posts coming from that place before.

degas on Nov 15, 09 at 10:35pm
Obama needs to start acting like a real American President and not some young, inexperienced "step and fetch" clown.

degas on Nov 15, 09 at 11:18pm
I see the usual suspects are trying very hard to play the race card. Sad.

<<Why should the president of a great country, and for all its faults, U.S. is a great country, debase himself in front of Saudis, Chinese, etc.>>

Yeah, he probably should have holed up in the US embassy and summoned the Emperor to come to him. Yeah...that's the ticket.

Obama screwed up, again. Only the most loyal followers are trying to make excuses for him..again.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yc6dtfx

But seriously folks, this is this week's attack on Obama? Y'all have me laughing so hard, I'm crying!

Although the photo no doubt is accurate; taken by itself it is a bit misleading in emphasizing the exaggerated bow. Take a look at the video as a whole and it will appear completely normal...even to our right wing nutter friends.

Well, I can see you're not proud of your President Barbara. LOL

Is that anything new?

thereyet

Rightwing nutters? Plenty of folks from all segments of American society are getting real tired of Obama acting like a wowed grade school kid when he gets near a foreigner with a title.

Get over it. Why is it only an issue when Obama bows, but isn't when Eisenhower, Nixon, Bush and Johnson bowed to various dignitaries.

Republican Hypocrisy AGAIN!

It is an issue whenever ANY US President bows to other world leaders. More and more pople are beginning to see him as weak and unsure of his position. He needs to drop the "so sorry, we are so bad" routine.

Hore pucky!

I am a registered Independent, and always vote across party lines, being a fairly non-political type myself. However, the biggest difference I see among Republican and Democrat SUPPORTERS, is that the Dems can dish it out, but they sure can't take it.

The difference I see among recent Republican and Democratic presidents is that Republcans like to kiss and hold hands with foreign leaders and Democrats like to shake hands and show respect by bowing.

Also, Republican leaders are incompetent buffoons who like to illegally invade countries and destroy the world's economy through lack of regulatory oversight.

This post is as Silly as it gets. Join Rossini and 'lighten up'. www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrBaESiV3ss

Just an aside, but I saw President Pyjamas on the telly saluting the military. Is this normal? I'm not aware of any Military service in President Banana's life. If so what is a civilian doing saluting? I know he's Commander in Chief but he doesn't get to wear a uniform does he?

Over here civilians don't salute - no matter how high up they are.

ps a common pub quiz question here is: The Queen has only ever performed one curtsey since becoming queen. To whom?

At her coronation, she cursied to the people! You owe me a pint!

Why do people discriminate against bow-ers?
People don't shake hands any more -it's old school.

It seems Reagan started the saluting business.

http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2008/12/24/to-salute-or-not-to-salute-thats-obamas-question/

CW - I'm not sure who Pres. PJ is but if you are referring to American Presidents saluting the military, it's because the US President is considered the the Commander in Chief.

The Pres. in his Chinese PJ's.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/china2001.jpg

At her coronation, she cursied to the people! You owe me a pint!>>>>>

I don't think I do. I believe it was at her Father's funeral to the dead king's coffin.

Whoever the president is, I think it looks stupid to be saluting when wearing a business suit.

Her Maj and curtseying...

Well,my money was on it being either to Wilhelmina or to Mary (her gran), on account of age beats protocol and both of them were stuffy old bats who damn well weren't going to let Lillibet diss them just because she'd got on in the world

Most of you are too young to remember that in 1952 we had three queens at the same time.

The President is the commander in chief, so prior military service or not they can salute the troops in return. I would think a simple nod (smile optional) in return for the respect and salute demanded of the soldiers around the President would suffice. If a president is going to salute, they need do need to do it correctly and not just flip a hand about their forehead like they're swatting at a bug. Do it right or knock it off.

As for President Obama bowing pretty low to the Japanese emperor, I'm going to go with the assumption that he was told to do that by someone who knows a heck of a lot more about proper protocol than I do. I always thought that on the same level (i.e. both are the leader of their country) you didn't have to bow (just a simple nod was acceptable), but I freely admit that I don't know.


Like him as president or not, he is the president and should get a certain level of respect for being in that position. I would never want to be in such a closely watched, tightly criticized position.

On US Presidents saluting...

The Reuters article jorr quotes claims US Presidents started saluting only with Reagan.

Since the only president since him with a real military record has been Bush The Coherent, does that really mean that no other President with military experience has ever saluted?

Surely Washington must have? Is Reuters just wrong?

Here's a lengthy discussion of the saluting question, with many photographs and copious links, by Eugene Fidell, who is currently visiting professor of military law at Yale:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2009/11/presidential-salutes-and-presidential.html

I confess I haven't read the whole thing.

Pic of tricky Dick bowing to Hirohito.
Yes, that Hirohito who was the emperor of Japan during WWII

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=5c8f4325f5d81345&q=hirohito%20source:life&prev=/images?q=hirohito+source:life&ndsp=12&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&start=12&um=1

Hey MI,

>...It's called manners. ...<

From the little I know of Japanese custom, it merely reveals his ignorance.

Bowing has a set of rules associated with class hierarchy. A bow that is too low is as much an insult (or a faux pas) as one that is not deep enough.

The Emperor, of course, does not bow to his subjects. He does not bow to his peers. His peers do not bow to him.

Mr Obama just has this thing about bowing.

Oh, please! Who cares? Does this have anything to do with any legislation he's trying to get through? Impact our economy? Have anything to do with troops in Afghanistan?

So Obama isn't Miss Manners when it comes to social etiquette. If that's what people look for in a politician, no wonder our economy got so messed up.

And if that's the biggest problem people have with the president, then he must be doing a pretty great job.

Obviously when Nixon bowed to Hirohito he was apologizing for winning WWII and bombing Japan.

Nixon was the penultimate "step and fetch it" apologizer for America.

"From the little I know of Japanese custom, it merely reveals his ignorance.''

One would assume there are people who give politicians instructions on what the proper protocol is.

I imagine that there is a parallel between those Americans who want their president to behave like a jerk when he is visiting another country and those American tourists who behave like jerks when they visit us here in Europe.

John Wayne diplomacy belongs in the movies.

RBCal, According to the article I posted upthread, Nixon's bow was appropriate, and Hirohito was making a similar gesture. Of course, they could have just been leaning closer to hear what the other was saying.It bears no resemblance to Obama's grovelling and completely inappropriate deep bow.

Padraig, I think you're onto something.

"step and fetch clown"

"President Banana"

My-my, the things you read here (and learn about people).

Yes, it was completely appropriate of Nixon to bow to the man who ordered the bombing Pearl Harbor.

I'm sure that the Bushes will bow to Osama bin Laden when Obama catches him.

wow, even bowing is now partisan politics.

RBCal, Osama bin Laden isn't a Head of State.

Bam is the groveler in chief!

Finally, a US president who doesn't embody the <<Ugly American>> syndrome and his people are ashamed. You must really WANT the rest of the world to dislike you.

Finally, a US president who doesn't embody the <<Ugly American>> syndrome and his people are ashamed. You must really WANT the rest of the world to dislike you.

President Banana:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan_Banana

Nanabee,no it isn't. However, you are one of the posters who will defend anything that Obama says or does, right or wrong. In this instance he was, again, wrong to bow to a fellow head of state.

Cholmondley_Warner on Nov 16, 09 at 8:56am
At her coronation, she cursied to the people! You owe me a pint!>>>>>

I don't think I do. I believe it was at her Father's funeral to the dead king's coffin.


Okay I owe you one!Maybe we both owe flanner one!

And here are 5 or 6 of Eisenhower bowing to heads of state...ever Chas, de Gaulle!

And here are 5 or 6 of Eisenhower bowing to heads of state...ever Chas, de Gaulle!

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics/browse_thread/thread/b32f386d17924da4

Degas...way over the line dude. Totally inappropriate.

RBCal, you are one messed up dude/dudette.

A drudge link but shows even foreign first ladies don't bow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA

Obama might have been enjoying the tile work?

Maybe he was looking for a new grout color for the Grand Foyer?

It's really funny, or maybe just sad, the lengths some of you go to to try to prove that Obama isn't really ignorant and out of his depth. Do you seriously equate a head nod with the deep bow Obama performed for both the Saudi King and the Emperor of Japan?

"The Emperor, of course, does not bow to his subjects. He does not bow to his peers. His peers do not bow to him."

The Emperor has no peers.

That's the difference between the holder of the Chrysanthemum Throne and the European monarchs. The Europeans have centuries of carefully negotiated rules of mutual precedence (depends on where you are, curent job title and time in post. Plus, if you're The Queen, whether you reign over more than 10% of the world's surface) relative to their cousin, the Crown Prince of the country next door.

The Emperor stands alone.

Barbara, how about Eisenhower?

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/11/dwight-d-eisenhower-bowing-hour.html

Or Bush?
http://www.kmphblog.com/?cat=6

Please, give us a source that identifies the specific protocol for a president greeting a King. I didn't find one at the office Chief of Protocol. Maybe you can provide us with your source of wisdom on all things protocol.

apersuader,

The link you posted for Bush shows him lowering his head to receive a medal around his neck.

Apparently Wiki is the official information source for all things related to bowing.

As the world shrinks and Obama gets to travel to more lands, there will be plenty more opportunity to criticize his adoption of local greeting customs:

http://www.brucevanpatter.com/world_greetings.html

"Wooshay! Wooshay!"


Since this is the usual partisan slugfest, I'll just ask one question (prompted by Scarlett's post above): who's the new Letitia Baldridge these days?

apersuader, someone already posted that. Inclining his head is not even close to the obsequious gestures from Obama. Really desperate, aren't you?

Barbara, even better...he was receiving a medal around his neck (and the link said so).

Do people even read what they post or just google, cut, paste, repeat?

". . . with no bow in return. You are the president of the United States for gods sake...act like it"

So when the Emperor didn't bow in return, Obama should have done, what? The man is 76 years old. Should Obama have tried to kick his ass? Maybe that would make people feel better about their own country? We could then raise our hands and hoot "USA! USA!"

I'm old enough to have voted for Nixon (twice). I have no independent recollection of Nixon bowing to the Emperor of Japan. It would have made no difference in my opinion of him. My opinion was formed by things like his decision to ignore the growing national debt, bomb Cambodia, and cover up Watergate (all bad), and extend diplomacy to China, create the EPA, and extend civil rights protection (all good).

I'll give Obama the same pass. I don't care who he bows to -- I just want to see how he runs our country.

A picture is worth a thousand words. The picture of Nixon bowing to Hirohito is from Life magazine and linked above.

flanneruk on Nov 16, 09 at 11:30am
On US Presidents saluting...
The Reuters article jorr quotes claims US Presidents started saluting only with Reagan.
_______________________________________________

That was Not my post. Flanneruk, get your facts straight before you attempt to quote people here!

I guess it all depends on which democrat is President. When something similar happened with Bill Clinton, the White House protocol officer denied he bowed to the emperor, thereby not breaking a 200 year tradition that Presidents don't bow.

http://tinyurl.com/cqxbze

"a 200 year tradition that Presidents don't bow."

Except, of course, when they do.

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/11/dwight-d-eisenhower-bowing-hour.html

Barbara, there were TWO, count'em TWO links. Care to comment about the other?

Here's your original statement:

Barbara on Nov 16, 09 at 1:11pm
Nanabee,no it isn't. However, you are one of the posters who will defend anything that Obama says or does, right or wrong. In this instance he was, again, wrong to bow to a fellow head of state.

As for Bush, how about this link?

http://networdblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/bowing-again.html

The pope is a head of state. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3819.htm

Care to elaborate on your 1:11 post, at least as it pertains to Bush? Any comments about Eisenhower? How about Nixon? http://jprschaefer.blogspot.com/2009/04/president-bows-to-foreign-leader.html

apersuader, you seem to be going out of your way to prove me right. That you will go to very great lengths to try to show that Obama was not wrong. Well, he was. Live with it. He was w r o n g. See if you can find a picture of any other American president bowing as low as Obama did. Try hard to judge Obama's actions as Obama's actions. He and only he is responsible for the way he behaves, not Bush, not anyone else. Heck,I didn't live here when Nixon or Eisenhour were president so I don't care what they did. Or didn't do.They weren't representing me.

The only head of state Obama hasn't bowed low to is QEII. Probably because she's a woman. He has little respect for women.

Random thought, but I wonder how the discussions on any Japanese forums are going. How do they feel about the President bowing to the Emperor? Also, how have other world leaders acted when they meet the Japanese emperor in Japan?

Does the British Prime Minister bow, the French President, the leaders from China or Korea when (if) they have met with the Emperor?

"He has little respect for women". Does that include his wife and daughters? What a sad and sick comment.

It's easy to tell who is a Faux News bird brain. The only station making this a "news" "story" is the unfair and unbalanced channel.

Weird that the bird brains didn't mind Reagan bowing to QEII and Bush kissing and bowing to the Saudi King

Obama isn't the first American president to do so. Back in the 1980s, Republican president Ronald Reagan was criticized after bowing to Queen Elizabeth the first time he met her, and President George W. Bush bowed before Saudi Arabia's king .

http://rawstory.com/2009/11/afp-outrage-washington-obamas-japan-bow/

as well as smooching the king.

Reagan and Bush had no respect for America.

Iowa_Redhead, the British Prime minister is not the head of state. I'm sure if here were pictures of other heads of state bowing low to the Emperor that somoene would have posted a link by now.

LI, Obama has proved repeatedly that he has little respect for women, his latest effort being that the 51% of the population that is female should just take one for the team so he can pass his health insurance reform bill.

There's nothing "sad and sick" about seeing him for what he is.On the contrary, you might look at your own thoughts about him and question whether, as a woman,this is the kind of man you want to represent you?

Then again, there's this collection which I just now came across on another blog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA&feature=player_embedded

<<There's nothing "sad and sick" about seeing him for what he is.>>

And what is that?

I would suggest, the way you see him is a manufacture of your own bias.

thereyet

I think to some extent you could apply that to anyone, including yourself, ty.

<<See if you can find a picture of any other American president bowing as low as Obama did.>>

First it was that he "bowed", after proven wrong about Presidents bowing....it becomes "how low he bowed". LOL

<<The only head of state Obama hasn't bowed low to is QEII. Probably because she's a woman. He has little respect for women.>>

Why do you lie like that Barbara?

Don't worry, you don't have to answer.

Where did you live when Nixon was President...or Eisenhower?

thereyet

What a hoot! What an absolute hoot!

It's really fun to see these Obama supporters all of a sudden become great experts on the Japanese custom of bowing.

Not that they really spport the tradition or custom of bowing, it's only because Obama is the one doing it. Had it been Bush who had bowed so low, they would be highly, highly critical of a US President bowing to a Japanese emperor!

What's the term I'm thinking of? "Political convenience"?

Some people just can't accept the fact that most Americans have moved on from racism and bigotry and view all Americans as equals.

Thankfully, the remaining bigots are mostly old, unhealthy, uneducated and will die off soon. (Seriously when have you last heard the term "step and fetchit" as one "informed" poster used?)

The average age of Faux viewers and EIB listeners is 65 yo. They can't croak soon enough for me.

Now I remember why I avoid political threads. The President bowed to one person and not another and therefore he has little respect for women. WTF?? Hey, nobody's posted pictures of something so it must not have happened.

As for the British prime minister, I'd call him a head of state along with the Queen. They have different roles, but they're both heads of state. When he visits the US he is given the same treatment as any other head of state.

Iowa_Redhead wrote: "As for the British prime minister, I'd call him a head of state along with the Queen. They have different roles, but they're both heads of state."

You might call him that, but you would be wrong. In Britain, the Prime Minister is the head of the government, but the queen is the head of state. It's not a difficult distinction.

We Irish have a similar division of roles, except that we have a president rather than a queen.

In the USA you combine the roles. How about you all agreeing that Obama bowed in his role as head of government, but in his role as head of state he would be as uncouth as some of his critics here would wish?

Some here have called President Obama ignorant, a clown, disrespectful to women (?), Bam, Barry , and even openly racist names.
It is their choice, but one can only assume part of their resentment comes from the fact that a black man from a modest background ( and his wife) have accomplished more than they ever have, or their children ever will.

Our Apologizer-in-Chief is such an embarrassment.

RBCal: "The average age of Faux viewers and EIB listeners is 65 yo. They can't croak soon enough for me."

I don't watch Fox News, if I can at all help it, and have no idea what "EIB" stands for, but one good turn deserves another.

May the fleas of a thousand camels lodge in your armpit. (Arab curse).

At first I thought the headline was "Obama bowls again." Now, that would have been embarrassing.

Oh jeez, this is petty. I'm quite sure, living here in the seat of power and all, that Obama does whatever the Protocol Meister or Mistress of the Day tells him what to do under any circumstance. Sometimes they get it wrong, or miscalculate. It has no more to do with his abilities as POTUS than Sarah Palin's ankles.

<<May the fleas of a thousand camels lodge in your armpit. (Arab curse).>>

Seriously?? Do you know the actual translation for that? I'm afraid of putting that into babelfish or a similar program.

Pretty plain to see, huh danon?

But as one here would point out, "but he is half white too".

thereyet

Iowa: Sorry, but i can't take this topic nor this thread seriously.

This is not like "How to Cook a Turkey for Thanksgiving". Now THAT's a serious topic!

I think the Arab in question was Carnac the Magnificent.

Easytraveler, dang it! I was seriously hoping to learn that one for my Egypt trip in case of extremely annoying tour members.

Carnac the Magnificent?? Do I even want to ask who that is/was?

If it's not a "real curse" it should be! I love it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_the_Magnificent

Iowa: Here's another old Arab curse for your trip:

May your left ear fall off and fall into your right pocket.

lol, thanks jahoulih

Ikhlassy akhrasi ya sharmoot wa iftahy khashmik
-Saudi King to George W Bush

..."Obama does whatever the Protocol Meister or Mistress of the Day tells him what to do under any circumstance.'

Wow - so now he is blameless and its all the fault of some dumb underling? We elected a leader, not a mindless, spineless robot.

<<Wow - so now he is blameless and its all the fault of some dumb underling? We elected a leader, not a mindless, spineless robot.>>

Beats the hell out of a blood dripping, thieving, sociopath....any day.

thereyet

If you want to be embarrassed by a President....take a gander at this.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BVGz7lWZUIY/Sd6bQitDs0I/AAAAAAAAUt4/a-QNk9QuEzM/s400/BushKissingSaudiPrince.jpg

Can you imagine if President Obama had done this?

thereyet

thereyet, do try harder to focus on the current subject at hand. Don't let your intense hatred of GWB intrude make you sound like a bitter broken record.

No degas, it is you that is the bitter broken record...LOL

BTW, where do you have that calender hung?

Do you think GW let the Prince slip him some tongue?

thereyet

actually the act shows how he, like so many other DINO's have NO spine ... now if we can get him to stop bowing to the likes of Wall Street, the banksters, the insurance industry and the lobbyists, maybe we could actually see some CHANGE!

Degas,

since when did, whenever he did anything that was questionable or even gouche ("wee weed," giving the finger, 57 states, Oregon is on or near the Great Lakes, etc etc) was it his fault? Besides it's all Bush's or Clinton's or someone else's - except Reagan, don't forget!

IOKIYO (It’s OK If You’re Obama!) RULZ!!!!

Wow! and I guess BO is the first biracial man to travel in Asia ... will some ever tie of playing the race card? The the "The Pacific President" (WTF?). Everything is about him - narcissism. His one night stand with Europe seems to be over ... but it is reported that Michelle and the girls are enjoying the trip!

“This picture shows two things,” my friend writes.

“1) The ‘right’ is wrong about Obama’s bow.

“2) The ‘left’ is wrong about Obama’s bow.

“His bow is neither (1) unprecedented nor (2) a sign of cultural understanding.

“At their 1971 meeting in Alaska, the first visit of a Japanese Emperor to America, President Nixon bowed and referred to Emperor Hirohito and his wife repeatedly as ‘Your Imperial Majesties.’”

“Yet, (and?) Nixon gets the bow right. Slight arch from the waist hands at his side.

”Obama’s handshake/forward lurch was so jarring and inappropriate it recalls Bush’s back-rub of Merkel.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html

Padraig - "In the USA you combine the roles. How about you all agreeing that Obama bowed in his role as head of government, but in his role as head of state he would be as uncouth as some of his critics here would wish?"

Why don't we just give him a pass? He is, after all, the great BHO who can do no wrong. And, of course, he is not GWB, so he must be perfect. Anything he does wrong is GWB's fault. LOL

All this hoo haa over the bow is at least giving the British press something to joke about!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/17/obama-bowing-japanese-emperor

<< The only head of state Obama hasn't bowed low to is QEII. Probably because she's a woman. He has little respect for women>>

NOW I finally get it, I am slow. Barbara and her like are the bitter Clinton supporters.

BTW ,The Saudi Arabia Prince was a personal friend of the Bush Family,therefore, kissing a friend in the cheek is norm in the Arab's World.Therefore I dont see anything wrong that Bush greeted his friend that way.This is a portion of an article describing the Bush family relationship with the Prince.

The President of a great nation should not BOW so low to anybody..

<Editor's Note:

The Saudi-American Forum wishes to thank The New Yorker for permission to reprint this article which appeared in their March 24, 2003 edition.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prince
How the Saudi Ambassador became Washington's indispensable operator.
By Elsa Walsh

During the first weeks of the second Bush Administration, the Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, met with the new President. Bandar, who is fifty-three and has been the Saudi Ambassador for twenty years, was accustomed to an unusually personal relationship with the White House; he was so close to the President's father, George H. W. Bush, that he was considered almost a member of the family

Wrong prince. That wasn't Prince Bandar. It was Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah.

Barry's the "Pacific President?" Wow, wonder what that *means.

The 'stupidity' of this post. Reported today that 1 in 7 families will go hungry this Thanksgiving and we have people upset because of a 'Bow'. Isn't it time to get upset for a 'legitimate' reason? Richard

<<BTW ,The Saudi Arabia Prince was a personal friend of the Bush Family,therefore, kissing a friend in the cheek is norm in the Arab's World.>>

Uhhhh, that wasn't a kiss on the cheek. Look again.

And that GWB was "such good friends" with now king Abdullah, given that nearly all 911 terrorists were Saudi....says a lot.

Bushes "family ties" sure have cost the US dearly.

thereyet

I had forgotten about how the Bush family kissed and hugged the Saudi royals. Well said thereyet.

And iris - you have a good point.

"The 'stupidity' of this post. Reported today that 1 in 7 families will go hungry this Thanksgiving and we have people upset because of a 'Bow'. Isn't it time to get upset for a 'legitimate' reason?"

Careful Iris. Trying to put things into perspective will cause the release of ferocious carnival barkers. Only a adoration thread about puppies will calm them.

Scary!

woof woof!!

We are talking about Obama Bowing so low to other head of States and about Bush famous kiss..why change the subject?

Iris you are Right..many children and family members go to bed hungry every night.

Miss Info you're right - the ferocious carnival barkers are on the lose.

Hi dan,

>One would assume there are people who give politicians instructions on what the proper protocol is.<

As in Pres Carter's translator, when he went to Poland?
........................................
Hi Flann,

>The Emperor has no peers. <
Or so some would like to think.

Does the Emperor of a small country, take precedence over the Shāhanshāh of another small country, or the Rajadhiraja of a somewhat larger country, or over Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India, Princess of Hanover and Duchess of Brunswick and Lunenburg?

Regardless of what those subservient personages might think of their monarch, the US is a Republic. It's chief executive does not make public obeisance.
.......................................................
RBC writes,
>Thankfully, the remaining bigots are mostly old, unhealthy, uneducated and will die off soon.<
As in Sarah Palin?

When heads of other countries visit the U.S., do they shake hands and greet our President according to our cultural expectations? I believe they do.

It seems to be correct that the visitor honor his hosts by greeting him/her as appropriate in the host country.

We are ethnocentric in the US, to think everyone should subscribe to our practices, even in their own home countries. It's diversity, people!

Barbara, I was not attempting to support Obama. I was trying to get you to admit that your statement referenced in my post applied equally to Bush, Nixon and Eisenhower. You obviously can't attack Bush, so you have completely changed your tune, and now it's about how low Obama bowed. Your choice in argument.

To clarify, your post was as follows:

<Barbara on Nov 16, 09 at 1:11pm
Nanabee,no it isn't. However, you are one of the posters who will defend anything that Obama says or does, right or wrong. In this instance he was, again, wrong to bow to a fellow head of state.>

Are you capable of admitting that George Bush, Richard Nixon and Dwight Eisenhower were also wrong? I'm just asking if youre capable of this admission here, not whether you'll actually apply the same standards to politicians from both sides of the aisle equally. The history of your posts here clearly indicate you can't.

Was it a political gaffe by Obama: Yes. Was it a tacit admission by Obama that the U.S. government is subservient to Japan or other countries, in Degas' bizarro world, yes. In real world politics? No.

<<Only a adoration thread about puppies will calm them.>>

LOL

"It seems to be correct that the visitor honor his hosts by greeting him/her as appropriate in the host country."

Yes, and Obama did not do that.

<<#
Barbara on Nov 17, 09 at 8:26am

"It seems to be correct that the visitor honor his hosts by greeting him/her as appropriate in the host country."

Yes, and Obama did not do that.>>

So your bitch is that in his attempt to greet his host as appropriate in the host country is....he didn't do it right...by your standards?

LOL

thereyet

Not my standards, ty. Didn't you read the link from ABC that I posted? He did it wrong.

Horrors! He did it wrong!

Is this as George HW Bush vomiting on the Japanese Prime Minister?

I don't think George H W Bush would have been prepped for that by his protocol officer. He couldn't help that. Are you saying that Obama couldn't help it, that it was a spontaneous action over which he had no control?

No I'm saying that it's idiotic to make a big deal over a bow. Particularly when other presidents have done far worse.

<<He did it wrong.>>

Again....LOL

"No I'm saying that it's idiotic to make a big deal over a bow. Particularly when other presidents have done far worse."

Well said, RBCal.

'Wow - so now he is blameless and its all the fault of some dumb underling? We elected a leader, not a mindless, spineless robot."

It is obvious many have not "elected" Obama ; judging by despicable racist name calling, they will always find him unacceptable.

<<Didn't you read the link from ABC that I posted?>>

You mean the blog post from some one at ABC, who recounts what his friend told him? His friend who is a self proclaimed "academic expert" on the Japanese Empire, yet he declines to name this expert. You mean that useless link?

thereyet

You know it's really funny to hear the charges and counter charges but I'm guessing not many folks were around during the '60's when empowerment was the meme and black men were proud and tired of scraping and bowing and averting their eyes so there was no direct eye contact - in fact, they were hanged for far less ... no matter how you want to frame it, bowing is not a sign of respect, it’s a voluntary act of submission.

the times they are a'changin' ... the more things change, the more they stay the same

"no matter how you want to frame it, bowing is not a sign of respect, it’s a voluntary act of submission." Beachplum, you are correct, perhaps, in our US culture.

The point is, you show respect to your hosts by following their norms when you visit. When in Rome. . .

So, those who say that Obama shouldn't have bowed are "racist" and supported a "blood dripping sociopath"?

Ye gads! This is so funny!

TOKYO - President Barack Obama's deep bow to Japan's emperor has been castigated by U.S. critics as kowtowing to a foreign leader, but experts in Japanese etiquette praised it as an appropriate show of respect.

http://news.globaltv.com/entertainment/Japanese+Obama+appropriate+show+respect/2231891/story.html

I'm sure an entertainment opinion will be far more worthy than anything from Jake Tapper, the White House correspondant for ABC News. This is really important to you, isn't it, to go to all this trouble to find these obscure sources to support your opinion.

One thing you forget is that Obama is not there as a private citizen representing himself. He grovelled before the Emperor on behalf of the entire USA.

Hey, did Barry stop by to see his brother or at least give him a wonderful *shoutout*?

Fidel, that sound racist-based

Hmmm, so our president shows an appropriate amount of respect, and conservatives on Fox and the internet have a fit.
The same folks who ran off all of our allies since 2000 think showing respect to others is inappropriate?

The same folks who defended Wilson for calling Obama a liar are complaining about the show of respect?

I never thought the gap between the aisle was purely a matter of civility, I thought it was based upon political ideals. Seems particularly odd, since conservative posters here decry the "personal attacks" and lack of civility of others so much.

apersuader65: This is not about "showing respect" nor about "civility". It's all about saying that Obama can do no wrong. It's all about a blind partisan viewpoint.

It's all about Obama supporters engaging in name-calling and reaching into the gutter and lower for their insults. The personal attacks and name-calling has been mostly from Obama supporters.

Stop your spinning as if you have the high road. You don't.

Barbara, it's not an "entertainment opinion." It's a news story from AFP, a rather well-respected wire service, written by a Japanese reporter and quoting actual named Japanese experts.

aspersuader65, you do have the high road and keep on the trail!

It's in their entertainment section.

>>At first I thought the headline was "Obama bowls again." Now, that would have been embarrassing.>>

Mama-mia, I thought that was the best line on this whole thread!

But seriously, I can't believe this is causing such an uproar. Maybe Bush 1 couldn't help throwing up, but I don't think I was on here when Bush 2 gave the Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany, an unsolicited massage! Now that would have been something to criticize!

As for Obama and his bowing, he grew up in Hawaii, presumably around many Japanese, so he is probably familiar with bowing to elders. I think it would have been ungracious of him NOT to bow, and I also think that, being so tall, he probably just tends to bow lower and so it is more noticeable, especialy in the still shot. It does not look as unusual in the video, imo.

But I certainly would not see this as groveling, and the fact that that Japanese are praising at as a "show of respect" (thanks for that link, jah!) should be seen as a good thing. IF someone came to this country, and refused to shake hands with our president, we would take it wrong. Why is this so hard to understand?

Sorry, easytraveler, but I respectfully disagree: "This is not about "showing respect" nor about "civility". It's all about saying that Obama can do no wrong. It's all about a blind partisan viewpoint."

You're taking a huge leap to say Obama supporters are all blind partisans who think Obama can do no wrong.

It does get tiring to read all the little criticisms from the other side of the aisle, who pick on the most inane and tiny details to criticize. Like how Obama bows, for pete's sake.

Yes, I agree Peace Out, no one at the time (including democrats) seemed to make a big deal out of the fact that Bush kissed (yes kissed) the head of the Saudi Royal family after the 9/11 attacks!

You'd think this was the ONE & ONLY thing Obama has done in Japan.

cat, As you weren't here when W massaged Angela Merkel, you won't know that he was roundly criticized here. Of course, he was criticized here frequently and I was one of the critics.

Why do NO other world leaders feel the need to grovel before the Emperor? Nobody, even those from similar cultures. Because in diplomatic circles it is not the accepted way for heads of state to greet each other. Why is that so hard to understand?

Maybe the republicans critize this because it is the only thing they can think of to critize. Bods well for all the good stuff he can do, like actually speak and carry on a conversation and not annoy the hell out of the Japanese, like out past president.

Barbara, I just don't see it as groveling, even if you don't think it was the "right thing to do". Groveling is a pretty strong word!

Again, watching the video, it just seems respectful to me.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=obama%20akihito&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

Peaceout: "You're taking a huge leap to say Obama supporters are all blind partisans who think Obama can do no wrong."

Did I say "all"?

Aren't you the one who's jumping to conclusions with your "all"?

I happen to enjoy the postings of a number of Obama supporters, but not the perpetual name-callers and bashers here on Fodors. They have not just an excess of bias but an endless supply of venom - Obama is always right, regardless of what he does and then the name-calling starts.

It's the hypocrisy. These posters are NOT in support of Japanese tradition and custom. They are using this occasion as a political football and, in particular, yet another opening to engage in gutter-level name-calling. It's happened over and over and over again. These posters are NOT interested in better international relations, gay rights, equality for women, erasing poverty and hunger, better governmental financial management, democracy, etc. etc. All they're interested in is saying that Obama is right and everyone else is wrong - and BTW, here's another personal jab with some filthy language thrown in.


So far, these are the posters I agree with the most:

"Dreamer2 on Nov 16, 09 at 4:17am

I am a registered Independent, and always vote across party lines, being a fairly non-political type myself. However, the biggest difference I see among Republican and Democrat SUPPORTERS, is that the Dems can dish it out, but they sure can't take it."


iris1745 on Nov 17, 09 at 7:31am

The 'stupidity' of this post. Reported today that 1 in 7 families will go hungry this Thanksgiving and we have people upset because of a 'Bow'. Isn't it time to get upset for a 'legitimate' reason? Richard"

I have no idea whom iris supported and frankly don't give a d@mn.

easy, I also respectfully disagree. My use of the phrase/term "Showing respect" and "civility" do not mean I am a blind partisan supporter that believes Obama can do no wrong. It is a different viewpoint than what you take, that's all. By your statement, does it mean that you are a 'blind partisan detractor'? Ergo, it doesn't matter what the heck the guy does, you're going to criticize? I'd like to think not. I understand from your posts here that you are likely a right-leaning american. As I've continually asked of Barbara here (who appears to me to be a regular Obama detractor) if whether her opinion of Obama's 'bow' applies equally to Bush, Nixon or Eisenhower's similar actions. She refuses to answer specifically. I personally don't find showing 'respect' or civility to others to be a sign of weakness, in fact quite the opposite. I find it to be a character flaw in people who can not show respect or civility when dealing with someone in a face-to-face meeting.

I freely admit that this attitude I don't find myself following as much on an internet site, as the face to face interaction is not present. Not the best character attribute to publicize, but that is what I believe.

As for the Merkel 'massage' a couple of years ago, as I recall, the criticisms were based upon the appropriateness of massaging the shoulders of another head of state, and that GWB had never massaged the shoulders of a male head of state. Much of the context was made in reference to Clinton's treatment of women. He did exchange cheek kisses with the Saudi Prince, but other than purely homophobic criticisms, there was no big hullaballoo about it, as I recall.

"Maybe Republicans critize this because it is the only thing they can think of to critize."

You're kidding!!?! Here's a sampler:

Wall Street Bailout
0bamaCars
No Credit for Small Business
Sucking at insurance companies trough
17% real unemployment
Can't keep the lies straight
Timothy Geithner's excellent figuring
Retreat on Global Warming
Can't Decide about War in Afghanistan
Bringing 9/11 Terrorists to Trial in NYC
Begging Congress not to investigate Ft. Hood Shooter

But he bows low beautifully.

I'd like to know what is "racist-based" about laughing at the prez ignoring his brother.

I can't read all of these replies, but I was thinking about this today and I see over 200 replies on why he should or shouldn't have bowed.
My take is this. Who cares? He is trying to get along with the rest of this world following their customs, etc...

I say if you don't like Obama, fine. But dislike the man for his policies or how he runs the country. Not liking someone because he showed respect for a foreign leader, is ridiculous.
So far as President, I can't say this man has done anything disrespectful. We have had Presidents get BJs in the oval office for pete's sake.

I don't like all of Obama's policies and as a matter of fact, I am distressed at the healthcare situation, but the fact that he bowed is a stupid thing to argue about!

Maybe he was just trying to look the short guy in the eye?

Maybe he dropped a tic-tac. You know how you have bad breath after a long flight.

<<By your statement, does it mean that you are a 'blind partisan detractor'?>>

Yup.

apersuader76: "My use of the phrase/term "Showing respect" and "civility" do not mean I am a blind partisan supporter that believes Obama can do no wrong."

Please point to posts where you have been as impartial as posters like Dreamer2 and have criticized Obama. If you really are as impartial as you want to make out that you are, this shouldn't be so hard to do.

"It is a different viewpoint than what you take, that's all."

It isn't just a difference of opinion. For example, you've engaged in personally attacking Barbara. You can't just leave it at a "difference of opinion". That's the problem.

"Are you capable of admitting that George Bush, Richard Nixon and Dwight Eisenhower were also wrong? I'm just asking if youre capable of this admission here, not whether you'll actually apply the same standards to politicians from both sides of the aisle equally. The history of your posts here clearly indicate you can't."

This goes far beyond having a mere "difference of opinion". This is direct frontal attack and a smear against Barbara's character.

We're NOT talking about Bush, Nixon or Eisenhower. We're talking about Obama. You bring in a bunch of extraneous propositions and then conclude erroneously that she's not "capable". That's a personal attack, that's not a "difference of opinion".

"By your statement, does it mean that you are a 'blind partisan detractor'? Ergo, it doesn't matter what the heck the guy does, you're going to criticize? I'd like to think not. I understand from your posts here that you are likely a right-leaning american."

Here you go again. You set up a series of fake questions and then agree with yourself by coming to a bunch of wrong conclusions.

You're blinded by your support of Obama and the Democrats and lack objectivity.

I'm an Independent. If there's something to criticize about Obama, I'll criticize him. If there's something to praise about Obama, I'll praise him.

http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/so-far-very-good-political.cfm

The problem with Obama is Obama. He has given us few achievements that we can cheer about. OTOH, he's done a lot of things that open him up to huge criticism: Wall Street, Main Street bankers, Auto companies, unemployement, health care, Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the Olympics, refusing to extend the NATO shield to East European countries, etc. etc. etc.

I'd suggest that you stop looking at the past, at the failure that was the Bush Administration, and bring yourself into the present, into the Obama administration - which is almost 1/4 over.

Fidel, I hate to remind you, but TARP, the Wall St. bailout, was GWB's guy's idea and passed by congress and signed by him. I know, Obama voted for it as a senator, but putting that on him is a little disingenuous, isn't it?

<<refusing to extend the NATO shield to East European countries>>

Do you know what you are talking about here?

The ground based missile defense system was scrapped in favor of the Aegis shipped based system. This brought Russia back to the table for arms reduction talks. Were you thinking that was a bad thing?

btw, it isn't likely that Russia feels threatened by Poland and the Czech Republic.

The majority of the US Missile Defense capability, which is limited to say the least, is designed to defend against North Korea, not Russia.

thereyet

apersuader, I thought I had answered your enquiry. Maybe you missed it, or perhaps it wasn't as specific as you wanted it to be. As far as I have seen, none of the three former presidents you mention bowed low as Obama did to the Emperor of Japan,or any other head of state. If they did and I have just been unable to find such an example,please post a link. Otherwise, they did not do what Obama did. I have difficulty calling a nod of the head a "bow". If it is, then I know a lot of people who bow to others frequently. Bill Clinton got into hot water for a head nod, but I notice you didn't mention him.

As I said up-thread, I didn't live here when Nixon and Eisenhower were presidents so they did not represent me. What they did or dod not do is of little interest to me other than as historical trivia.

Also, if you paid a little more attention when looking at my posting history, you would see that I did not like George W. Bush and criticized him often. While you may not like it, there are a lot of Democrats,and many who are now former Democrats, who do not like or trust or have confidence in Obama. It is not only Republicans.

Perhaps you should go back to where you lived when Nixon was president?

Easy, let's take the big one first. This thread, along with most other political threads here, devolve into name calling and claims of "blind partisan support", mostly by those on the right. Although it's titled Obama's bow, it's devolved into "blind partisan support". Failure to attack Obama doesn't seem to distance me enough from the claims of blind partisan support. I too, am an independent and have voted for at least one member of each party in every election since 1984. My partisanship lies with the middle. Luckily for all of us, that the wacko-far left side of the spectrum can't organize themselves enough to actually put up an idea of theirs for debate. Unluckily, the far right wing wacko's are not only organized, but for most of this decade, were in complete control of this country. The path they started frightens me, as it seems intent on destroying one of the bases of our government and our constitution: the separation of church and state. As for pointing to a post criticizing Obama, I doubt one exists. But I have never claimed Obama can do no wrong. As for the issues I find important to my daily life: health insurance reform - seen double digit increases every year, and I live in a state that passed some of the toughest med-mal protections in the nation several years ago, and no relenting on the increases - the war in Iraq - we never should have went in, and we need to get out now; Afghanistan - we should have went in, should have been pressuring Pakistan more to get bin Laden and we need to figure out an exit plan. But leaving now, with a vacuum created seems to be the least favorable idea without some International method to stabilize the country; Home buyers assistance program - I work in the industry and in the midwest where I live, it's working; Cash for clunkers - I understand the logic of it, but don't think it's had much of an impact.

If I were to criticize Obama, it would be for him, on the day after Wilson called him a liar, not doing everything possible to jam a health insurance reform bill through congress and get it signed. And not one with Universal care, one with the public option. In my state, 90% of the health insurance market is controlled by two companies. A public option that made insurance affordable would be nice.

My alleged personal attack on Barbara: She made a statement here (I've linked it twice) about Obama's bow, followed by claims of blind partisan support. Paraphrasing my response: "Barbara, will you hold Bush, Nixon and Eisenhower to the same standards and call them the same names as Obama for doing the exact same thing?" She did not respond to the first question. Her next post was that the bow was "way to deep". Didn't answer the question of whether or not she would call Bush, Nixon or Ike the same names or hold them to the same standards. I followed it with a personal question of whether or not she is capable of making an admission that Bush, Nixon and Ike were also wrong for the exact same behavior she decried of Obama.

I don't see it as a personal attack. It's a direct question of someone who bitterly attacks posts she disagrees with with the Obamabot and blind partisan support mantra to determine whether or not she is in fact offering blind partisan support herself. Not a personal attack, simply a question as to whether she can ever hold any other politician to the standards she holds Obama. In my years on this site, I've never seen it. Admittedly, I don't get involved in every political thread, just those where I see blatant inconsistency in responses.

Barbara = Orly_Taitz???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orly_Taitz

Girlonthego, what you said bears repeating:
"I can't read all of these replies, but I was thinking about this today and I see over 200 replies on why he should or shouldn't have bowed.
My take is this. Who cares? He is trying to get along with the rest of this world following their customs, etc...

I say if you don't like Obama, fine. But dislike the man for his policies or how he runs the country. Not liking someone because he showed respect for a foreign leader, is ridiculous.
So far as President, I can't say this man has done anything disrespectful. We have had Presidents get BJs in the oval office for pete's sake.

I don't like all of Obama's policies and as a matter of fact, I am distressed at the healthcare situation, but the fact that he bowed is a stupid thing to argue about!"

<...but the fact that he bowed is a stupid thing to argue about!>

Editors, please close this thread so we may all go over and participate in the toilet paper taxation discussion.

Besides Faux News, the Birther loonies feature the bow.

http://www.obamacitizenshipdebate.org/

Hey, to some it really doesn't matter if you make an admission if there is something you don't like about Obama/Obama's policies...if you defend him against trivial attacks over vacations, teleprompters, or bowing, you are a blind partisan.

thereyet

Barbara, I've never assumed you to be repbulican. I've only seen your posts during the election and immediately thereafter where your criticism of Obama was evident. If I recall correctly, you were a Hillary supporter. Your criticism of Obama continued even after Hillary conceded, and criticized the Dem's for not allowing the Florida votes. (If those posts were not yours, I apologize.) As for your statement originally, it was:

< However, you are one of the posters who will defend anything that Obama says or does, right or wrong. In this instance he was, again, wrong to bow to a fellow head of state.>

I apologize, but I do not see anything in that post about the depth of the bow. I understood it to be it was "wrong to bow to a fellow head of state." That's why I posted three different links to three different presidents who bowed to foreign heads of state. I only posted those three because when I Googled it for Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Johnson, and Kennedy, I found no such photos, didn't bother with FDR because he was always seated. I did not read in to your statement the implication that the depth of the bow actually defined the term. I understood you to change the above statement, in a later post, to one of the depth of the bow.

You also state that you didn't live here under Nixon and Ike. That's fine. But is it possible for you to agree that those two, along with Bush also were wrong to bow to a fellow head of state? Or maybe rephrase your criticism of Obama to take into account the depth of the bow?

BTW, I have never considered you to be a blind partisan poster here, just not an Obama fan, to say the least.

Really weird that Hillary got over losing but some of her supporters apparently never will. I originally supported Hillary. However, she did not run as an effective campaign as Obama and it's her fault she lost, not Obama's.

Even weirder is that former Hillary supporters now hope Obama will fail and thus take Hillary down with him.

My My, here comes arrogant thereyet:

"Do you know what you are talking about here?"

Oh, yeah! Another personal attack! Can't ever make a point without using "you" in some derogatory form.

I know that Obama has conveniently thrown the Czech Republic and Poland under the bus and caved in to Russian pressure. Did you? Of course not.

"btw, it isn't likely that Russia feels threatened by Poland and the Czech Republic."

What an idiot statement. It's the other way around. The whole point was to assure Poland and Czech Republic that they wouldn't be attacked again FROM Russia. Of course, you haven't the faintest idea of how much those countries wanted to get out from under the Russian boot. Ever heard of the "Velvet Revolution"?

"The majority of the US Missile Defense capability, which is limited to say the least, is designed to defend against North Korea, not Russia."

Another incredibly idiotic statement.

Against NORTH KOREA???? LOL! How many missiles does North Korea have as opposed to the number of missiles that Russia has?

Nothing to say about the other areas where Obama HAS OPENED HIMSELF UP FOR CRITICSIM:
"Wall Street, Main Street bankers, Auto companies, unemployement, health care, Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the Olympics,"

One example: August, 2010. We're supposed to be completely out of Iraq by then. Of course, when August, 2010, rolls around and we're still in Iraq, it's going to be: "It's all GWB's fault". Well, GWB wasn't the one who went around promising to get us out of Iraq by August, 2010.

WARSAW (Reuters) - Almost half Poland's population supports a U.S. decision to scrap a planned anti-missile system partly based on their soil, a survey published on Saturday showed.

U.S. President Barack Obama said on Thursday he was scrapping Bush-era plans to build missile interceptors in Poland and a radar site in the Czech Republic, and instead proposed more flexible defense systems to protect against Iran.

The survey published in the daily Rzeczpospolita by polling firm GFK showed 48 percent of Poles believed the decision was good for Poland, while 31 percent had the opposite view.

A total of 58 percent said the move would have no impact on Poland's security.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE58I0FP20090919

>>Hey, to some it really doesn't matter if you make an admission if there is something you don't like about Obama/Obama's policies...if you defend him against trivial attacks over vacations, teleprompters, or bowing, you are a blind partisan.<<

Did you actually post something you don't like about Obama? And yes, you do come across as a blind partisan.

Hmmm.. What would Captain Kirk do in that situation?

Meth, you are the one that started this thread. I know you are rather new here on Fodor's but did you really think this thread of yours would consist of polite and pleasant posts? I think not! You wanted to stir the pot and that is exactly what has happened.

"What an idiot statement. It's the other way around. The whole point was to assure Poland and Czech Republic that they wouldn't be attacked again FROM Russia. Of course, you haven't the faintest idea of how much those countries wanted to get out from under the Russian boot. Ever heard of the "Velvet Revolution"?'
And where were all the right -wingers for almost 45 year? Let's see:
"liberating" Korea and Vietnam
supporting military juntas in Central and South America
fighting proxy wars in Africa
... just to mention a few distractions.
NOW, they are soooo concerned about Eastern Europe. Give me a break!
YOU don't have any idea, some here do.

jahoulih: Please quote the entire article:

"Political analysts say the economy is a far bigger priority than missile defense for Polish and Czech voters.

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk's center-right, pro-EU government never embraced missile defense as keenly as its more conservative predecessor led by Jaroslaw Kaczynski which it ousted in 2007.

When asked how they interpreted Obama's decision, 40 percent of Poles in the survey said it was a concession to Russia.

Russia had fiercely opposed plans to deploy the shield in a

region it had dominated until the fall of communism in 1989."

Obama caved to Russian pressure, pure and simple.

Consider the importance of Article 5 to the "new" European nations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/opinion/21iht-edcohen.html

danon: I'm no "right winger" and you're the one who's clueless.

"And where were all the right -wingers for almost 45 year?"

The fall of the Berlin Wall occurred during the Bush I administration in 1989.

Ronald Reagan in 1987: "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

One might as well ask where the left-wingers were?

"Obama caved to Russian pressure, pure and simple."

Stop making things up. You don't know that.

Does the US really care if Poland and the Czech Republic are attacked?

Please!

"jahoulih: Please quote the entire article"

Sorry, that's not my idea of fair use.

No, the prez and Congess don't "really care if Poland and the CR are attacked", but some people in the US do.

<<Did you actually post something you don't like about Obama? And yes, you do come across as a blind partisan.>>

Yes I have. It hasn't made a bit of difference so why did I bother?

I really don't feel the need to continually bitch about the President, because for the most part, I am very happy with how things are going, don't feel the need to have EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW like some here, and understand it will take patience to get out from under the pile of crap left by the Republicans.

I am a partisan, that doesn't make me "blind". I don't feel the need to let the lies I see here on a daily basis slide.

Do you?

Is it acceptable to you to pass opinion off as fact?

thereyet

"really care if Poland and the CR are attacked", but some people in the US do.'
Yes, like they cared for 45 years. NOT.

They don't care about Poland and the CR, they care about disparaging the President.

Pretty Damn sad.

thereyet

>>Perhaps you should go back to where you lived when Nixon was president?<<

RBCal, I'd have to say that was out of line. Sorry...

danon: ou're the one who's clueless. '"

Really! And what do you think was going on BETWEEN 1945 and 1989?
There was a life in Eastern Europe before the Wall came down.
I know first hand.

Misinformation: "Does the US really care if Poland and the Czech Republic are attacked?"

Article 5 of the 1949 North Atlantic Treaty:
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all, and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually, and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

One for all. All for one.

That's why we should "care". It's because of something called a "treaty".

apersuader65: "Easy, let's take the big one first. This thread, along with most other political threads here, devolve into name calling and claims of "blind partisan support", mostly by those on the right."

Whaat??

"Name calling" generally occurs because of addressing someone personally with use of the word "you" or pointedly calling them by name.

From this thread alone:
NorCal: I hope you don't apply for the Foreign Serve any time soon.

ty: degas, you prefer blood-dripping, thieving sociopath?

ty: Well, I an see you're not proud of your President, Barbara.

jorr: What side of the Universe are you from, degas?

ty: Why do you lie like that?

ty: No, degas, it is you that is the bitter broken record. LOL.

trickiewoo: Now I finally get it, I'm slow. Barbara and her like are the bitter Clinton supporters.

apersuader65: Are you capable of admitting...I'm just asking if you're capable...The history of your posts here clearly indicate you can't.

ty: So your bitch is that...by your standards...you mean...

Loveitaly: You wanted to stir the pot and that is exactly what has happened.

RBCal: Perhaps you should go back to where you lived when Nixon was president?


It's always the same: you are stirring the pot, you are the liar, you aren't capable of understanding my point, you you you you followed by a totally baseless accusation and derogatory statement.

This could have been a sane discussion of what is really the correct protocol with a lot of humor and fun. It's the personal attacks of the partisans on the left, blind or not, that renders the entire thread yet another senseless bashing.

Meth is not ignorant or naive, he started this thread to stir the pot. I am not complaining. Just responding to his post of 4:10p.m. of today, he gave me a good chuckle actually.

easytraveler on Nov 17, 09 at 8:47pm


danon: I'm no "right winger" and you're the one who's clueless. "'


YOU were saying...

Well over 200 posts regarding Obama's bowing in Japan? Are you serious? People it's time to move on. Not only are people attackin Obama for basically a non issue, everyone is attacking each other. It's silly.

Barbara on Nov 16, 09 at 1:11pm
Nanabee,no it isn't. However, you are one of the posters who will defend anything that Obama says or does, right or wrong. In this instance he was, again, wrong to bow to a fellow head of state.

Barbara on Nov 16, 09 at 1:50pm
apersuader, someone already posted that. Inclining his head is not even close to the obsequious gestures from Obama. Really desperate, aren't you?

Easytraveler, sorry to burst Easytravelers's bubble here, but the above quotes were from Barbara. Is it intentional that Easytraveler didn't link those in Easytravelers's post on 11-17 at 9:18p.m.?

Sorry for the use of pronouns. I will strive to only use full names, as the are less offensive to some.

Sigh.

nanabee: "Well over 200 posts regarding Obama's bowing in Japan? Are you serious? People it's time to move on. Not only are people attackin Obama for basically a non issue, everyone is attacking each other. It's silly."

when anybody omits a pronoun {makes observation about posters in general] easytraveller goes with his Accusations of passiveaggressive. paranoia is not fun, he deserves Sympathy.

So, have a robust discussion of the issue, I think most reasonable people can agree that Obama was wrong to bow so low as to look like a common servant and not a world leader.

From leaserent:

leaserent on Jun 28, 08 at 10:16am

"Master PP [Proenza-Preschooler}, since your use of stereotypes is gratuitous to the point of pathos, how about this one? Like most insecure gay men, your relationships are dominated by pandering heterosexual females and your need to create a persona that pleases them."

Even a Fifth Grader would be ashamed of such amateurish psychobabble.

Degas, I consider myself a reasonable person. I don't find Obama's actions wrong. I didn't find George Bush's actions wrong when he bowed to the pope. Those actions were out of respect by both men. I also do not believe that either action demeaned or lessened either the office of pres. or this country.

Humility used to be an honorable trait.

A man's pride will bring him low, but a humble spirit will obtain honor. Proverbs 29:23

"I consider myself a reasonable person."

If you don't know anything about protocol, apersuader, you could be the most reasonable person on the planet, and still be wrong about this.

And yet, the Office of Protocol says that the action was appropriate. Huh.

And, too, so could Degas?

Yes, and the Office of Protocol reports to the Secretary of State, who reports to Obama. Huh.

Okay, I have a Japanese student in my office right now. Here is one Japanese person's opinion. She said that Obama is very popular in Japan, and many people are very interested in him -more so than in their own current leaders. Her comment about the bowing (according to her own opinion and what she hears/reads from Japan on websites and other media) is that it was a sign that Obama understood Japanese culture. People were "very, very" surprised because Americans don't bow their heads in their own culture, but that it showed his politeness. She did say that he did not have to bow that low, however.

Okay, just one comment to add to the mix!

No, apers, bowing has nothing to do with respect but all to do with submission - that's why priests bow at the alter and serfs bow at the knee of their master. It has little to do with respect (altho some respect - often confused with fear - might be found therein). It's the same thing that black men did when they averted their eyes and stepped out of the way with a "Yes, sir, Master."

It was certainly not necessary nor appropriate ... and I guess he learned very little from that "teachable moment" after he bowed to the Saudi king. You think that maybe he would have.

And it's not just the right who are criticizing him. Frankly I find him lacking at times - when he "wee weed" comes to mind, and his remarks about the "Special Olympics," the comment about Oregon being on the Great Lakes, the 57 states - now we know which got the most stimulus money - the seven that don't exist, remarks made during the campaign. Makes me think "what is he thinking or is he?" And he's not the first POTUS that I've asked that of nor, I suspect, will he be the last. Then there are those problems that he has failed to act on and more importantly those things he has failed to act on as a Democrat and the leader of the Democratic party. Is it really too much to expect him to act Presidential and not be like the fumbling jackass we tolerated for the last 8 years?

>>And yet, the Office of Protocol says that the action was appropriate. Huh.<<

The same Office of Protocol that said it was inappropriate during the Clinton administration?

If the Saudi king and the Emperor of Japan had bowed equally to Obama,then it would have been polite, but as they didn't, well....

ET, as if the Office of Protocol is going to come out after teh fact and say Obama messed up!

Our soldiers are returning from 'war' in caskets and yet, we have the stupidity of this post continuing. It's the same people, over and over. Richard

No, apers, bowing has nothing to do with respect but all to do with submission -

So at the begining of a Tae Kwan Do match when the two competitors bow to each other and to the referee, they are actually submitting to one another, and not showing respect?

apersuader,

"the two competitors bow to each other"

That's the difference, "to each other". That would show respect.

Apparently in Japanese tradion - and Japanese culture the fact that Obama bowed shows he understands the culture and the Japanese citizens are pleased and feel respected. What's wrong with this.

For an American to say he can not bow to show respect (even if the other person doesn't bow back) because in our mentality it is something or other (who says bowing is a sign of anything anyway) is IMHO as sign of zenophobia.

Obama bowed to an old man without any power.

It was not Putin or the Chinese prime minister Wen Jiabao.

Relax!

Beachplum, your rants are tiresome!
We all know you would hate any man in a position of power. You are the antithesis of feminism

Perhaps the greatest sign of weakness is when half your population spends its time worrying whether you look weak or not.

Institutional puffery isn't much of a standard.

they are actually submitting to one another, and not showing respect?

One does not bow lower than the other, correct?

Yea, I hate all men! And that's the anti-thesis of "feminism?" LOL ... and I care more about Obama bowing to the right wing nuttery, man or woman, than some old dude ...

Besides isn't this old news by this time? BO's going to do what he damn well pleases but I wasn't even addressing YOU, avalon. But that's the funny part - I can't even be bothered "hating" him. He isn't worth the energy but I can discuss his continuous gaffes. No different than what was done to the last few Presidents ....

"Obama was wrong to bow so low as to look like a common servant and not a world leader."

Wow, degas, I don't think you would have said that about a white President. Sounds extremely racist to me. However you want to spin it, your concern is that our black president appears like a servant. In your eyes only.

why is it that other posters are not allowed to hold a different opinion but must be labelled as "racist" or "hate any man"? Why so much intolerance? Seems like a number of Fodors posters suffer from a dictator complex.

This thread is not about Obama bowing or how low he has bowed. This thread is about intolerance.

Meanwhile, Obama's approval rating keeps dropping, below 50% now - losing more and more Independents. One would think that this fact alone should warn Obama supporters that all's not exactly right in their fantasy world.

"This thread is not about Obama bowing or how low he has bowed."

Well considering the title of the thread is "Obama bows again", you could have fooled me, lol.

ezt: <<why is it that other posters are not allowed to hold a different opinion but must be labelled as "racist" or "hate any man"?>>

Oh I don't know ... maybe it's because the say racist things. Duh! Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck ... you know.

bluestar: "Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck ... you know."

No, I don't know.

You mean like all these miniature dictator wannabees refusing to allow any other opinion but their own - looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, bashes other posters like a duck - that kind of "Duh"?

step and fetch clown! I'll forget you said that and am embarressed for you. He showed the correct protocal

Okay, how do you perceive comments like "step & fetch clown" and "President Banana"? If you tell me you don't see them as blatant racist comments then I will suggest you are blind, deaf or ignorant - or any combination thereof.

I know some neighborhoods that I'd like to take the posters who made those comments to and have them say them face to face with the people who live there. We'll see how they fare.

First off, I never said anything about "step and fetch clown", so have no idea what cigalechanta is talking about when she says "you".

Secondly, Obama is a PUBLIC figure who is PRESIDENT, so what he does affects millions, if not billions of people. A single poster on here doesn't have that kind of impact. To try to silence other posters with death wishes or by wishing that they would "return" to wherever they came from like RBCal's post is just as offensive - yet there is but one condemnation of this sort of over-the-top language and that was from cat. This is partisan bias at its worse.

As for "President Banana" - that came from CW (if my recollection is correct) and he doesn't even live in the US. Where were all these loyal Americans protesting a foreigner calling the President a banana but were completely silent when GWB was characterized as a monkey overseas? No outrage?

This is a partisan-oriented protest and has nothing to do with Obama's race. His supporters are using his race as a constant crutch, being unable to offer any kind of coherent discussion points.

I'd like to remind everyone again that Obama is half white.

not directed at you. quoting degas.

"Step and Fetch clown" is not a racist term. If a white, purple or orange President did it, then I'd say the same thing. The whole world knows he looked like a fool. One cab driver in Malaysia asked me if he was looking for loose change!

18. When the president of the United States is traveling overseas, do you think it is appropriate for him to bow to a foreign leader if that is the country’s custom or is it never appropriate for the president to bow to another leader?

1. Yes, bow when it is the proper custom
2. No, it is never appropriate for the president to bow
3. (Don’t know)

17-18 Nov 09

Yes 67%
No 26%
Don't know 7%

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/111909_ObamaPoll.pdf

It was not even the proper custom. The Japanese people felt sorry for him making a silly fool out of himself. LOL!

You mean the Japanese people who live in your head, along with the Malaysian cab driver?

jahoulih - have a nice day, but do try to control your negative emotions and not be tacky in attacking other posters who you disagree with.

Malaysia was a hoot.

Obama is an accomplished statesman who is liked, respected, admired, revered, by heads of states all over the world. He recieved a Nobel Peace Prize because of his ability to bring peoples together. Now we know why - his decisions to be respectful are appreciated by other heads of state who now see America in a more favorable light. GWBush never bowed but, did more damage in international relations than Obama could ever do.

"GWBush never bowed"

Sure he did.

http://www.catholicvoiceoakland.org/images/061807Pope_Bush.gif

Ok so why are the neo cons so a-flutter? If Bush can bow why can't Obama. Do they think Obama's bows aren't as good as dear ole Dubyas?

I'm going to start bowing - maybe it'll be more germ free than shaking hands!

<<"Step and Fetch clown" is not a racist term.>>

Good grief.

that's why racists are so out of touch jahoulih, either they don't know any better, they don't care, or they are lying.

degas is jealous, his party has NO power, and they are left with ALL there hopes wrapped up in Palin's "good looks" without much else inside the package.

thereyet

yep!

This was really funny at first, but I got half way through and gave up on the insults. You are all really crazy to be going on and on and on about weather or not Obama should bow. Well, I'm sure the heads of other nations will shake his hand at the end of his terms. I remember not long ago some national leaders and foreign dignitaries passed George Bush by refusing to shake his hand. Now that was humiliating. Obama has a lot of image repair to do all over the world to make up for Bush’s mistakes….and President Obama is doing a good job of it.

Well said, tbelgian!

Now can we please put aside this squabbling over bowing and talking about Obama hugging South Korean Lee Myung-bak?

http://www.daylife.com/photo/02bGfC0fik3CD

Is hugging a South Korean custom?

What's this about two men hugging each other?

Nanabee, you're post form 11/19 at 9:30pm is spot on.

And tbelgian, you, too!

That said, even I can't believe this is still being discussed. Almost 300 posts! Inconceivable!

And here's Obama hugging another woman than his wife!

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0dzyakI8Fk5re

Can anyone doubt that it's all this hugging that got him the Nobel Peace Prize?

Other presidents, both Democratic and Republican, have been pictured doing the exact same thing...or worse. Can't forget GWB strolling along holding the hand of a Saudi prince.

Well, everyone knows how affectionate Argentinians are! I think hugging was exactly right!

When Obama kisses a Saudi Prince on the lips, then I'll worry about him.

From Teach English in Saudi Arabia.
<Kissing and Holding Hands

<Saudi men often greet each other with kisses, but Saudi men usually just shake hands with foreign men unless they are close friends.
The opposite sexes should never kiss in public.

Men sometimes hold hands with each other in Saudi Arabia (although not with women in public).

<Holding hands with another man is a sign of friendship, with no sexual connotations>


http://teachsaudi.50webs.com/culture.htm

Here's what some Japanees protocal experts say

http://www.mysinchew.com/node/31614

So when Bush put that Saudi Prince in a liplock, what were to to take from that?

Cigale, I think people the world over (with the exception of a few sourpusses here) are pleased with the image Obama is making around the world.

>>I remember not long ago some national leaders and foreign dignitaries passed George Bush by refusing to shake his hand. Now that was humiliating.<<

Except that it didn't happen. It was a false story on CNN by Rick Sanchez that went viral on the blogosphere until it was subsequently corrected by another CNN reporter Jeanne Moos.

http://tinyurl.com/6m52m2

Except ET, I remember seeing actual video's of the world leaders who did shook hands with each other and did not shake Dubya's hand. He looked a little perlexed at the time, but there wasn't much he could do. Whether the situation I saw on tv was the same one this guy is talking about I don't know - but a situation like this actually did happen and it was on video and aired on television shows.

Am I reading correctly that some people are upset that Obama hugged a friend from another country (whether it be another man or women)?

Are people so uptight in America that the ONE AND ONLY way to greet someone is STRICTLY LIMITED to a HAND SHAKE?
Are we serious?

from degas on Nov 19, 09 at 9:01pm :
"It was not even the proper custom. The Japanese people felt sorry for him making a silly fool out of himself."


from ACTUAL Japanese experts:

"Japanese say Obama bow 'appropriate' show of respect"

"Before meeting the emperor, foreign envoys and visitors are usually told that bowing is important, said Isao Tokoro, professor of imperial studies at Kyoto Sangyo University.
"When visiting a foreign country, it is an admirable international manner to follow the country's own protocol. It should be praised and never deserve criticism. In Japan, bowing never means the person underestimates himself."

"Bowing is an expression of respect and open-mindedness as a person greets someone," said Reiko Kasai, chief instructor at JAL Academy, an intercultural training school.

YOU be the judge ... ;->

LOL norcal

Maybe the lack of knowledge of Japanese culture is why Degas is banned from Japan! He probably went to a Zen temple wearing his combat boots, guns in his hoster, greeting the elders with high fives, slapping the women on their butts, and shouting loudly in restaurant "Ahhh! Over here Frenchie we need service!!"

So when Obama follows appropriate protocol while in a foreign country Degas is a little baffled.

Except for a couple of posters like iris 1745, very few of you can be taken seriously - SERIOUSLY!

All these instant Japanese protocol experts - LOL!


Don't you all think it's another whole bunch of taxpayer money gone down the drain again? After all the Office of Protocol has done, we still have American presidents kissing, hugging, bowing, rubbing, touching and generally disregarding the Office of Protocol. Or maybe the Office of Protocol just isn't doing a good job.

<<I hated to see it. I know he is young and new to a lot of these things and probably has his own ideas about them, but I feel the President of the US should not bow to anyone.. a Saudi or a Japanese Emperor .. bowing his head maybe but not a full out knock your head on the floor bow.>>

His is young and that's another thing - it is polite to show respect for your elders in Japan (and many other places)is vitally important. Not bowing to someone much older is the cultural equivelant of calling the emperor 'grand pa'.

>If Bush can bow why can't Obama<

Well, he certainly can bow all he wants but thought he was all about change ... and if Bush were such a clown, why would you use that low bar to judge BO?

An accomplished stateman? Who wows and get the folks of Berlin to "vote" for him? And who manages to travel globe while the things at home are in dire need? What did he do that was even the littlest bit "statemanship" before he was running/selected for POTUS? What have been his MAJOR international accomplishments other than traveling and bowing and shaking hands and giving speeches wherein his favorite pronoun is "I"?

Let's see what he accomplishes before we decalre him the greatest and the bestest ever.

>degas is jealous, his party has NO power, and they are left with ALL there hopes wrapped up in Palin's "good looks" without much else inside the package.<

Obviously the Republicans hold ALL the power ... the Democrats are even scrounging to get the 60 votes for a vote today - on a health bill that leans so far to the right and conceeds to the minority party on most points ... hoping to get at least one vote so they can call it "bipartisan!" "Pass something, anything so we can declare victory" is the meme of the day! The hell with people this affects - it sure and hell won't be them! The Democrats won and I will be thrilled if they actually acted like it!

Wonder how much is spent on/in/by the "Office of Protocol" and if POTUS et al are just going to do whatever they want anyway, do away with all protocol and ceremony!

Maybe instead of worrying so much about "image" there's work to be done right here at home ... haven't we had enough presidents who have ignored things here for years and that's what has gooten us where we are? As Cheney said, "Reagan was right. Deficits don't matter." Sure, they don't matter at all until the Democrats come into power and then they lead the charge! Even the deficit is framing the health care debate - not improved HEALTH CARE! What was the motorcade to the Great Wall just for a photo op? Wasn't it 71 vehicles - I'd love to know how many were flown over on our dime!

But maybe he was doing some preliminary scouting for that jobs program he'll create building the Great Walls between Mexico and Canada and the US! That oughta keep folks employed for awhile and the right happy! A win-win!

Sure I'd love to vote for a newer, smarter, better Obama in 2012 and let's hope that happens. But meanwhile you'd think that after 8 years of Bush (and the incompetence of Reagan) that someone might have had a "teachable moment" about the dangers of inexperience! (and I'm not just talking about the silly gaffes and lack of class).

Meanwhile the media keeps writing the fairy tale on that "blank slate" that he says he is.

beachplum: even you don't get it.

He's not just the president of the US any more. What's a little bit of suffering in the US? He's the "Pacific President". What next?

(Kidding ya, bp! )

Prezident of the Whole World ... and the anthem will be changed to "He's got the Whole World in His Hands" ...

There you go!

here's one that'll give ya a giggle ..

http://blackerton.posterous.com/first-pacific-president-takes-a-dive

Are you guys serious? A gesture to greet someone is really quite frankly being blown out of porportion! Who cares? The important thing is the relationship building between heads of state so important issues between countries can be discussed and resolved.

Apparently any chance to bash Obama is much more fun for some posters.

jeeze, the "smiley" should have given you a hint, nana ...

besides it's not bashing Obama; it's about what he does! Thought gaffes for all presidents were up for laughs - and there's been some doozies. And BO will make more of his own, bet on it!

Bowing, handshaking, hugging, etc is not a gaff in my book. Think about it beachplum, when Bush kissed the Saudi Prince no one made a big deal out of it, when Bushor Cheney touched the Queen of England (a big no-no) no one made a big deal out of it.
Really, let's face it - Obama haters are making a big deal out of this stupid incident because they have nothing else to complain about.

I have consulted with Japanese-American friends on this. Here is their response: When acknowledging that the other person is older and /or due more respect, you need to bring your head lower than his (or hers). So Obama, as a very tall man, needed to bow very deeply, because the emperor is so much shorter.

Nice try. A bit far fetched, but still a nice try to defend his bizarre act of extreme submission.

because they have nothing else to complain about. You certainly don't want my list - or maybe you haven't taken a good look at what's happening ...

the excess and the extravagance just like a kid who just found the cookie jar and can't keep his hand out of it during a time when we are, despite all the happy thoughts, still struggling economically - more and more people are losing jobs, health care, homes and businesses - when tax revenues are down and basic services are being cut in all areas on the local level - and lying about "job creation" in districts that received millions of dollars and they don't even exist!

The answer - the Bollywood/Hollywood crowd can be treated to a celebration worthy of royality - while the banksters are outsourcing millions of TARP dollars, our dollars, sending American jobs, our jobs, overseas - guess to whom?

And as you asked me, "Are you serious?" LOL

So again Bush is the low bar by which to judge all other's actions? The soft bigotry of low expectations perhaps?

More proof that all Americans are mad.

no c/w just beachplum and degas!

ditto what nanabee said. All the sore losers out there will just have to wait until 2012, and after the mad hatters run Palin and Beck they'll have to wait until 2016.

Nora, I mentioned Obama's height way back on Nov. 17. I actually think that had a lot to do with it.

"So Obama, as a very tall man, needed to bow very deeply, because the emperor is so much shorter."

If the emperor was taller, what would you do? Stand erect, bend over backwards, jump?

cat111719--sorry! I didn't read through all 300+ posts, and didn't realize you mentioned the height factor. Like you, I believe it was the reason (and appropriate), but some are going to criticize no matter what.

cold---if the Emperor had been taller, he wouldn't have bowed so deeply. End of story.

Nora, no problem. It just makes sense to me and I was so glad to see someone else say it, too.

And ditto your response to cold...

c/w - they just don't get it ... doesn't make them "mad" especially when they thrive on hatred of all things not BO!

'tis fun to drive 'em to the brink! Then they go over the cliff themselves!

Beachplum - you must have been inspired by this place:

http://www.head-smashed-in.com/

IN Japan the lower the bow- the deeper respect paid - so in keeping with Japanese customs, what is the fault? and if the bow was not answered, no affront to the US. We Japanese saw the respect given by Pres. Obama.