Your feedback & suggestions on our Switzerland plans
Nov 28th, 2005, 10:20 PM
#1
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Your feedback & suggestions on our Switzerland plans
Hi,
My wife and I are travelling to Switzerland from 12 Dec to 18 Dec from Singapore for the first time.
We appreciate your kind feedback and suggestions.
Our wish-list ...
.... take our time to enjoy the snow and mountain scenery
.... simple winter hike if possible
.... try out one of the scenic train rides
.... day trips to a couple of cities (eg. Bern & Lucern)
Our tentative plan ...
Day 1 Arrive in Zurich early morning
Take (3.5 hrs) train from Zurich to St Moritz
Overnight in St Moritz
Day 2 Take (8 hrs) Glacier Express to Zermatt
Overnight in Zermatt
Day 3 Day in Zermatt
Overnight in Zermatt
Day 4 Take (4hrs) train from Zermatt to Lucerne
Overnight in Lucerne
Day 5 Day in Lucerne
Overnight in Lucerne
Day 6 Take train to Zurich
Day trip to some nearby area (Appenzell? Bern?)
Overnight to Zurich
Day 7 Day in Zurich
Depart from Zurich at night
(We've bypassed the Jungfrau region because of the time crunch. It would be a similar experience to Zermatt we reckon(?))
Thanks for you feedback and advice.
Cheers,
Tan BH
My wife and I are travelling to Switzerland from 12 Dec to 18 Dec from Singapore for the first time.
We appreciate your kind feedback and suggestions.
Our wish-list ...
.... take our time to enjoy the snow and mountain scenery
.... simple winter hike if possible
.... try out one of the scenic train rides
.... day trips to a couple of cities (eg. Bern & Lucern)
Our tentative plan ...
Day 1 Arrive in Zurich early morning
Take (3.5 hrs) train from Zurich to St Moritz
Overnight in St Moritz
Day 2 Take (8 hrs) Glacier Express to Zermatt
Overnight in Zermatt
Day 3 Day in Zermatt
Overnight in Zermatt
Day 4 Take (4hrs) train from Zermatt to Lucerne
Overnight in Lucerne
Day 5 Day in Lucerne
Overnight in Lucerne
Day 6 Take train to Zurich
Day trip to some nearby area (Appenzell? Bern?)
Overnight to Zurich
Day 7 Day in Zurich
Depart from Zurich at night
(We've bypassed the Jungfrau region because of the time crunch. It would be a similar experience to Zermatt we reckon(?))
Thanks for you feedback and advice.
Cheers,
Tan BH
Nov 28th, 2005, 10:55 PM
#2
You've done your homework! Nice itinerary.
On Day 6, I wouldn't go straight to Zürich. I would take the train straight to Appenzell (or Bern) and then head for Zürich in the evening.
Personally, I would recommend Appenzell over Bern because of its uniqueness.
On Day 6, I wouldn't go straight to Zürich. I would take the train straight to Appenzell (or Bern) and then head for Zürich in the evening.
Personally, I would recommend Appenzell over Bern because of its uniqueness.
Nov 29th, 2005, 12:39 AM
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When in St Moritz you must take the Bernina Express down the Bernina pass as the sights and the view down the valle from the train are fantastic. Then in Zermatt the Gornergrat Rack rail and also the Klein Matterhorn Cable Car are a must do. Having done most of your trip several times I am sure you will enjoy every minute. Rail timetables for the trip down Bernina Pass can be seen on the Swiss rail Web site.
Have a great trip
Regards
Ted
Have a great trip
Regards
Ted
Nov 29th, 2005, 01:59 AM
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I am going to disagree with the others on a few things. First, the Glacier Express is not the most scenic of the train rides IMO and in the opinion of most people who have done all the scenic train rides in Switzerland. The Bernina Express, mentioned above, is generally considered the most scenic train ride in Switzerland.
Secondly, I don't think you will want to take an 8 hour train ride after (i) an international overnight flight, (ii) with jet lag, and (iii) after a 3.5 hour train ride the day before. You will find yourself failing asleep and missing a lot of the ride, IMO. I used to live in Singapore and know the jet lag syndrome fairly well. A long, overheated, very slow train ride where you are sitting all day is NOT the best activity. Physical activity is a better way to spend the first few days, IMO. I would therefore say you spend your first few days getting out into the cold air, seeing the gorgeous Christmas trees and lights, taking in some sights and working your way toward the Bernina Express.
Now as to Zermatt versus the Jungfrau. The physical appearance of the Jungfrau region is really quite different from Zermatt, not to mention the food and people (French Valais versus Swiss German), so you really can't see one and think you are getting the "same" as the other. Both are beautiful, both offer a unique perspective, but they ARE different. However, with only 6 days and if you want to see Lucerne, Appenzell, AND do a scenic train ride, frankly both are a little bit out of the way. For example, to get to the Jungfrau from Lucerne by train takes 3 hours. St Moritz is in a whole different region of Switzerland as well.
Trying to keep some of your wants in mind, my suggested itinerary would go as follows. Remember that it will be dark quite early in December, so you have to plan your days carefully.
Day One
Arrive early morning into Zurich, first day Zurich city. There are probably Christmas concerts in the evening at local churches or concert venues, ask your hotel.
Day Two
Mid-morning train to Appenzell (2 hours), see town, overnight in Appenzell. Take a look at karenbrown.com for suggestions on charming inns.
Day Three
Get out to countryside for walks in the morning next day. A lot of this countyside is rolling hills with Alp backdrops so is easy walking. Head to St Gallen after lunch, see the lovely old town, cathedral and library, continue on to Chur in the late afternoon, overnight in Chur near the train station. (They have a small old town as well, but getting there in the dark is fine, IMO St Gallen's old town is far more worth seeing. )
Day Four
Bernina Express to Tirano, lunch in Tirano, return to St Moritz. Overnight St Moritz. For info on the Bernina Express, go to rhb.ch.
Day Five
From St Moritz either go to Zermatt via the Glacier Express (8 hours), or go to the Lucerne area (Lucerne - 4.5 hours, Thun in the Jungfrau - 5 hours, see below for info on Thun).
Day Six and Seven
Either Zermatt for two nights, or Lucerne for two nights, with a trip to Mt Pilatus and mabye a long day trip to the Jungfrau. Return to Zurich by train in the late afternoon. If you decide on Zermatt I can post some suggestions for activities.
Alternatively on Day Five, you could go to Thun on Lake Thun looking up to the Jungfrau and base yourself there for two nights. Thun has a castle and a nice old town, and its big advantage is you can get up into the mountains in 1.5 hours versus 3 from Lucerne. You can also get to Zurich in 1.5 hours. While not in the mountains, this is a good alternative to Lucerne as it is much smaller and much less touristed and has beautiful lake and mountain views.
Secondly, I don't think you will want to take an 8 hour train ride after (i) an international overnight flight, (ii) with jet lag, and (iii) after a 3.5 hour train ride the day before. You will find yourself failing asleep and missing a lot of the ride, IMO. I used to live in Singapore and know the jet lag syndrome fairly well. A long, overheated, very slow train ride where you are sitting all day is NOT the best activity. Physical activity is a better way to spend the first few days, IMO. I would therefore say you spend your first few days getting out into the cold air, seeing the gorgeous Christmas trees and lights, taking in some sights and working your way toward the Bernina Express.
Now as to Zermatt versus the Jungfrau. The physical appearance of the Jungfrau region is really quite different from Zermatt, not to mention the food and people (French Valais versus Swiss German), so you really can't see one and think you are getting the "same" as the other. Both are beautiful, both offer a unique perspective, but they ARE different. However, with only 6 days and if you want to see Lucerne, Appenzell, AND do a scenic train ride, frankly both are a little bit out of the way. For example, to get to the Jungfrau from Lucerne by train takes 3 hours. St Moritz is in a whole different region of Switzerland as well.
Trying to keep some of your wants in mind, my suggested itinerary would go as follows. Remember that it will be dark quite early in December, so you have to plan your days carefully.
Day One
Arrive early morning into Zurich, first day Zurich city. There are probably Christmas concerts in the evening at local churches or concert venues, ask your hotel.
Day Two
Mid-morning train to Appenzell (2 hours), see town, overnight in Appenzell. Take a look at karenbrown.com for suggestions on charming inns.
Day Three
Get out to countryside for walks in the morning next day. A lot of this countyside is rolling hills with Alp backdrops so is easy walking. Head to St Gallen after lunch, see the lovely old town, cathedral and library, continue on to Chur in the late afternoon, overnight in Chur near the train station. (They have a small old town as well, but getting there in the dark is fine, IMO St Gallen's old town is far more worth seeing. )
Day Four
Bernina Express to Tirano, lunch in Tirano, return to St Moritz. Overnight St Moritz. For info on the Bernina Express, go to rhb.ch.
Day Five
From St Moritz either go to Zermatt via the Glacier Express (8 hours), or go to the Lucerne area (Lucerne - 4.5 hours, Thun in the Jungfrau - 5 hours, see below for info on Thun).
Day Six and Seven
Either Zermatt for two nights, or Lucerne for two nights, with a trip to Mt Pilatus and mabye a long day trip to the Jungfrau. Return to Zurich by train in the late afternoon. If you decide on Zermatt I can post some suggestions for activities.
Alternatively on Day Five, you could go to Thun on Lake Thun looking up to the Jungfrau and base yourself there for two nights. Thun has a castle and a nice old town, and its big advantage is you can get up into the mountains in 1.5 hours versus 3 from Lucerne. You can also get to Zurich in 1.5 hours. While not in the mountains, this is a good alternative to Lucerne as it is much smaller and much less touristed and has beautiful lake and mountain views.
Nov 29th, 2005, 03:23 AM
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Re Appenzell. If you have time and since you are traveling by rail here is a suggestion.
You'll have to change trains in St. Gallen. The railway from St. Gallen to Appenzell (the Appenzeller Bahn) station is across the street from the main SBB station. If you are so inclined it is a short walk from the station to the abbey church and library in St. Gallen. The church interior has been called, by many, the "most beautiful in Switzerland." The library is an over-the-top roccco experience but the hours for admission are very limited.
As to places to stay in Appenzell...one possibility is the Romantik Santis hotel which is located directly on the town square. Appenzell is quite interesting but I would not plan more than one day there max.
The Glacier Express...we'll be forever battling over whether this is more or less scenic then the Bernina...the GE offers the spiral tunnels and the descent down into Andermatt is about as dramatic as it gets and the ascent up from Visp toward Zermatt has its moments as well.
Whatever you do at least consider going in one of the First Class Panorama cars..the windows are larger and even though one frequent poster here complained about a lack of air conditioning and stuffiness I have not personally experienced that during the four times I've taken the trip.
Zermatt: to see the peak as well as the various other peaks around the Monte Rosa massif you have a choice, as someone above mentioned, of taking the Gornergrat railway up or the aerial tramways up to Kleine Matterhorn. The Gornergrat station has a live cam which I suggest you check out BEFORE venturing up...sometimes when it is clear in the village the peak is totally shrouded in clouds.
I think you'll find St. Moritz itself to be somewhat sterile however the surrounding countryside is wonderful.
Enjoy your trip as I am sure it will be unforgettable.
BTW a good site for Swiss budget accommodations is www.rooms.ch
You'll have to change trains in St. Gallen. The railway from St. Gallen to Appenzell (the Appenzeller Bahn) station is across the street from the main SBB station. If you are so inclined it is a short walk from the station to the abbey church and library in St. Gallen. The church interior has been called, by many, the "most beautiful in Switzerland." The library is an over-the-top roccco experience but the hours for admission are very limited.
As to places to stay in Appenzell...one possibility is the Romantik Santis hotel which is located directly on the town square. Appenzell is quite interesting but I would not plan more than one day there max.
The Glacier Express...we'll be forever battling over whether this is more or less scenic then the Bernina...the GE offers the spiral tunnels and the descent down into Andermatt is about as dramatic as it gets and the ascent up from Visp toward Zermatt has its moments as well.
Whatever you do at least consider going in one of the First Class Panorama cars..the windows are larger and even though one frequent poster here complained about a lack of air conditioning and stuffiness I have not personally experienced that during the four times I've taken the trip.
Zermatt: to see the peak as well as the various other peaks around the Monte Rosa massif you have a choice, as someone above mentioned, of taking the Gornergrat railway up or the aerial tramways up to Kleine Matterhorn. The Gornergrat station has a live cam which I suggest you check out BEFORE venturing up...sometimes when it is clear in the village the peak is totally shrouded in clouds.
I think you'll find St. Moritz itself to be somewhat sterile however the surrounding countryside is wonderful.
Enjoy your trip as I am sure it will be unforgettable.
BTW a good site for Swiss budget accommodations is www.rooms.ch
Nov 29th, 2005, 03:29 AM
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Hi, TanBH. I think Cicerone's suggested itinerary sounds like one you should consider. It provides contrasts and (obviously) scenic beauty.
At first thought I was going to jump in and vote for Thun as a wonderful alternative to Zermatt or Lucerne (are there lakeboats running? If so, a ride across Thunersee to Oberhofen offers a little castle different from the one in Thun). And, as you can see, Bern is a easy trainride from Thun -- I'm a fan of Bern's painted fountain figures. My only reservation is getting there, if you have lots to carry. I notice that St. Moritz to Lucerne is a direct train. One route to Thun has three changes and I'm not convinced that the one in Zurich (tracks 8 or 7 to 17) is an easy one -- I know sometimes a long train leaves you with a long walk before you even get to the point where you can walk along to reach track 17. Without luggage I'd feel confident that it would be doable, but with luggage I'm not as certain. Cicerone, what do you think? The S.M. to T' route with two changes is good but takes more time. If any of this sounds like a concern, then I'd stay in Lucerne, a beautiful city with a gorgeous lake and plenty of daytrip options of its own. Have fun and please come back here with a trip report! J.
At first thought I was going to jump in and vote for Thun as a wonderful alternative to Zermatt or Lucerne (are there lakeboats running? If so, a ride across Thunersee to Oberhofen offers a little castle different from the one in Thun). And, as you can see, Bern is a easy trainride from Thun -- I'm a fan of Bern's painted fountain figures. My only reservation is getting there, if you have lots to carry. I notice that St. Moritz to Lucerne is a direct train. One route to Thun has three changes and I'm not convinced that the one in Zurich (tracks 8 or 7 to 17) is an easy one -- I know sometimes a long train leaves you with a long walk before you even get to the point where you can walk along to reach track 17. Without luggage I'd feel confident that it would be doable, but with luggage I'm not as certain. Cicerone, what do you think? The S.M. to T' route with two changes is good but takes more time. If any of this sounds like a concern, then I'd stay in Lucerne, a beautiful city with a gorgeous lake and plenty of daytrip options of its own. Have fun and please come back here with a trip report! J.
Nov 29th, 2005, 05:01 AM
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Luzern, St. Gallen are really beautiful cities, take your time for Appenzell also, and leave Bern out. Switzerland is scenic all the way, it's just like a large postcard which never seems to stop, not even in the ugliest suburb.
Tatjana
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Nov 29th, 2005, 07:52 PM
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Yes, I meant to mention that Thun has easy connections to Bern so a day trip there would be possible.
jmw44, when I look at the SBB schedues for St Mortiz to Lucerne, I see that 2 changes are necessary, what schedule do you see which shows a no-change train? Amost all trains from St Moritz require a change in Chur, a major interchange.
The connections to Thun don't trouble me so much. In Chur I believe the train is just accross the platform, in Zurich tracks 17 and 4 are all on the same platform on the ground floor, so you are not having to go up or down stairs with luggage and you have more than 10 minutes to make the walk. Bern is a small station so again it is a short walk. I agree that it is a bad 10 minutes or so with a large amount of luggage, but I don't think they can get to Lucerne without changes either. See my suggestion below for possibly sending larger pieces ahead.
To me the big advantage of Thun besides not being Lucense, it that you as so much closer to the Jungfrau, versus being in Lucerne in December and being 3 hours from the Jungfrau.(Lucerne is not my favorite town by a long stretch and in December loses a lot of its charm, no lakeside cafes or promenades and you can only gaze at the mountains which may or may not be visible).
I was going to discuss luggage when they had decided on an itinerary as that was a concern for me as also with so many train trips and because the scenic trains don't seem to me to have a lot of luggage space. My suggestion would be if they can be very organized would be to send larger pieces ahead to wait for them in Lucerne, Zermatt or Thun. Swiss Rail can guarantee 12 hour delivery for some routes and 24-48 for others. I am travelling today and don't have the link with me, but if you go to rail.ch and search, you will find the info.
It will definately be very cold, I assume Tan BH is aware of this and will be prepared for it. For average temps take a look at weatherbase.com. I also shoud mention that not only does the sun set early, it rises late, esp in December which has the shortest days. For daylight hours in December, take a look at sunrisesunset.com
jmw44, when I look at the SBB schedues for St Mortiz to Lucerne, I see that 2 changes are necessary, what schedule do you see which shows a no-change train? Amost all trains from St Moritz require a change in Chur, a major interchange.
The connections to Thun don't trouble me so much. In Chur I believe the train is just accross the platform, in Zurich tracks 17 and 4 are all on the same platform on the ground floor, so you are not having to go up or down stairs with luggage and you have more than 10 minutes to make the walk. Bern is a small station so again it is a short walk. I agree that it is a bad 10 minutes or so with a large amount of luggage, but I don't think they can get to Lucerne without changes either. See my suggestion below for possibly sending larger pieces ahead.
To me the big advantage of Thun besides not being Lucense, it that you as so much closer to the Jungfrau, versus being in Lucerne in December and being 3 hours from the Jungfrau.(Lucerne is not my favorite town by a long stretch and in December loses a lot of its charm, no lakeside cafes or promenades and you can only gaze at the mountains which may or may not be visible).
I was going to discuss luggage when they had decided on an itinerary as that was a concern for me as also with so many train trips and because the scenic trains don't seem to me to have a lot of luggage space. My suggestion would be if they can be very organized would be to send larger pieces ahead to wait for them in Lucerne, Zermatt or Thun. Swiss Rail can guarantee 12 hour delivery for some routes and 24-48 for others. I am travelling today and don't have the link with me, but if you go to rail.ch and search, you will find the info.
It will definately be very cold, I assume Tan BH is aware of this and will be prepared for it. For average temps take a look at weatherbase.com. I also shoud mention that not only does the sun set early, it rises late, esp in December which has the shortest days. For daylight hours in December, take a look at sunrisesunset.com
Nov 30th, 2005, 06:01 AM
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Much thanks to mijau, jmw44, intrepid1, yidly, ted_m, schuler & Cicerone for all the responses so far. You've given me plenty to think about.
I particularly appreciate the practical reminders about jet lag, train transfers, the winter cold and short daylight hours. The well-wishes have also been very encouraging to us. You're such great ambassadors!
I'll post the itinerary which we followed when we come back. Thanks
Regards
TanBH
I particularly appreciate the practical reminders about jet lag, train transfers, the winter cold and short daylight hours. The well-wishes have also been very encouraging to us. You're such great ambassadors!
I'll post the itinerary which we followed when we come back. Thanks
Regards
TanBH
