Why vacation in Europe? - from an American point of view

michelangelo's works was the draw for me when first planning to go to Europe.
I also like old ruins.

History, history, history (Well, I like US history too, but you can't get much European history here)

Cheese

When I travel alone in Europe, it's actually quite a zen experience to be surrounded by a language I don't understand. For once, I feel my brain is actually turned "off" (you know how your ear is always eavesdropping other's conversation...). I enjoy watching people talking and not understanding what they're saying - I actually look at their facial expression and their gestures, trying to imagine what they're talking about

Experience a different culture

Beer, history, beer, architecture, beer, scenery, beer, cultures, beer, food, wine, and beer.

Those who have to ask will never understand anyway.

Phillyboy,

My husband and I are on the same boat as you, since we travel to Europe at least once per year, if not twice (when we manage our budgets properly throughout the rest of the year).

Reasons:
The architecture.
The food and wine (you are absolutely right, somehow it tastes better in Europe!!!)
The multiple layers of history everywhere you look.
The learning experience --as you say, people are people and it's interesting to get to know them in their own turf, and to observe (and learn from) their customs and ideosyncracies.

...and did I mention the shopping? (although my husband would beg to differ on that one point)

Doh! I forgot museums, and beer.

History, architecture, art. And cobbled streets.

I don't know people's ages on here, but I can't help but wonder if there's a generational factor here. I'm 60, went to school when there was heavy emphasis on "Western Civ" (right through college). It was drilled into us year after year.
Probably as a result, much of my favorite books have been European and Roman historical novels.

Will today's (U.S.)younger generation be as smitten with European and Roman history as we are? Will European travel be as high on their agenda? I wonder.

Gaaa. Much = many

History and culture would be the main reason for me. We have history in the US, but it doesn't go back all that far.

I enjoy visiting places in the US too, but it often requires long hours of driving, which I hate. I prefer traveling around Europe b/c it's easy to use public transport. I like all the trains, trams and funiculars. It's hard to travel throughout the US without having to drive a car.

Bob hit it on the head---you can't understand
if you have not been there.

Probably at least some of these people don't really realize that Europe is a big, diverse place, (and I assume at least) that you aren't really visiting the exact same places each year. I also find that a lot of people perceive European travel as unbelievably expensive (i.e. once in a lifetime unless you're a jetsetter).

Persimon: You may have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Most people are astonished to learn what I spend on a trip to Europe. They usually assumed at least twice as much. I hadn't thought about it, but a many probably just never consider it, assuming they can't afford it.

I too am a repeat traveler to Europe. To be honest, I now feel I have seen enough ruins, churches, and museums although I usually do visit some new ones at some point in a trip. I WISH I could find the European ambience without the expense and torture of a transatlantic flight. But I have not found it yet in the U.S. I love the outdoor cafes, the unique shops and restaurants (instead of the malls the are so much the same whether in New York or L.A.!) I love the moderately priced local foods and wines. I can pay maybe twice or three times as much at a French resturant in the States and be very disappointed. I love wandering thru the little towns and villages and all the lovely window boxes. I love the vibrant cities full of sidewalk cafes and fountains. A few times in a metro area in the U.S. there has been a bit of a European flavor, but not really the whole delightful experience. I love the train travel or the canals of Venice and Amsterdam; the delight of walking into a cathedral and hearing the organ or finding a muscial quartet of street performers. As to the younger generation - I went with both my girls on high school trips and beleive me, they are no scholars or fans of history but they also fell in love with the overall atmosphere of Italy, France, Spain, Amsterdam, etc. But I do agree with bobthenavigator "those who have to ask will never understand". Let them stay home! It seems it is getting more crowded all the time!

Hi; I agree with Bobthenavigator; But everyone should try a European vacation at least once for the experience. For me, my sister went to Amsterdam to work for a year in 1989. I had not been on a plane for 25 years. She forced me/us to visit her. September, visiting our granddaughter in Germany, will be our thirtieth trip to Europe. Only second trip to Germany. Two trips in the planning for next year. Scandinavian Tour and Croatia. Dick P.S. We did have the 'flavor' of Europe, having been to Quebec City 13 or 14 times.

We used to go to Europe at least once a year, sometimes two.

Then we moved to London and travel to the continent 24 times in the last 3 years! That is how much we love history, architecture, small villages, and cobbled street (although you have to be careful with a certain footwear!). And food!

Now, as we are moving back to the US, I cannot help but wonder where would be going for our next trip. There is so much more to see!

I agree with the previous poster regarding "the looks" we get when we mention Europe as out trip destination. Not again?! Have you seen it all? NO!

Don't know if others have encountered this, but when asked about why I travel to Europe, I often get the feeling that those doing the asking quite frankly are a little timid about foreign travel. Especially when they realize I'm an independent traveler.

I really think some folks are, shall we say, less adventurous. Foreign language, foreign food, foreign customs. Too foreign! It seems to be more than they can handle. Traveling in the US within the Holiday Inn-McDonald's comfort zone is more appealing perhaps. Maybe it's a personality thing.

I think the diversity issue persommondeb mentioned is also a factor. When I told a friend that my husband and I were planning a fourth trip to Itly, she said, "Again? Haven't you seen it all?"

Food's better

I travel to Europe for the differences. Different cultures, different language, ambience.

I think people are a little timid. The first thing I usually get asked is about the language. The "oh my gosh, how did you get around if you don't know the language" question. And I do think many believe the cost is significantly higher than it actually is. I could easily spend more money in a week in Disney than I do in Europe. To each their own though.

Tracy

The U.S. is a very homogenized place. It almost doesn't matter where you are anymore - NYC, LA, Chicago, Atlanta, DC - you see the same restaurant and retail chains. Everything looks the same because shopping areas are developed by a handful of developers. There are a few exceptions, but even "old" or "quaint" areas of many cities have the same chains you find in malls in Atlanta. Example is Charleston, SC. You have this gorgeous quaint town and the shopping area has a Victoria's Secret, Banana Republic, Starbucks, etc... with a few unique stores mixed in.

With Europe, the food, culture and language differs from country to country, but the countries are the same size or smaller than our states. So, it's like going from Georgia to Florida and having the culture and language completely change (okay, maybe it does, but it's a joke I can make b/c I live in Georgia).

Other reasons:
- Food is better and higher quality (less processed)
- Stamps in passports
- The adventure of bumbling through a country where you don't speak the language
- It's fun to try to figure out what road signs mean
- Food
- Food
- Food

I would travel for the history or for specific aspects of the culture, but beyond that?

I mean, the comments about the food and the beer are kind of silly. Oregon has as much of a beer culture as modern Belgium, for example. And for food, you could head to San Francisco and Napa Valley for a month and eat as well or better than you could in Italy, France, or Spain.

The whole "homogenous" US is a laughable myth as well. I mean, didn't we all have Red State/Blue State ground into our heads during the recent election cycle? Beyond that, there is a night and day difference between Boston and Atlanta. Be it food or culture or the proper respect for college football.

And architecture? How many of those that claim that as a reason have gone to Falling Water? Or spent time on an architectural tour of Chicago? Or seriously considered the Pan Am/Met Life and Seagrams buildings? Architecture has actually progressed in the past 100 years. And much of that progress has happened in the US.

And the list goes on. Folks here complain about malls, but I haven't found much fashion in Europe that is better than Billy Reid, which you can find in the Galleria in Houston. Or food. I don't eat at the Cheesecake Factory, why assume that is all there is? Be it great fried chicken in Chapel Hill, a muffaleta from Central Grocery, or BBQ duck from Goode & Co, I have to question whether those who complain about food in the US have ever actually put any effort into finding good food.

I think that, while some may be timid, there is an equally strong contingent that feels travel to Europe validates them as more sophisticated and cultured. I would be reticent to take much advice from either camp.

None of this is meant to bash Europe. Come, don't come, it is all personal preference. But the reasons being offered as to why you should make the trip are, frankly, pretty weak.

Sorry, travelgourmet, I have traveled all over the US. I do consider our cities (and smaller cities) to be increasingly homogenized. Smaller mom and pop places give way to CVS stores, Starbucks, Moe's (or Chipotle or Baja Fresh or whatever), and the list continues. It's not that you can't find uniquely great places in large US cities (because you can), it's just that you're a lot less likely to stumble upon them without doing some digging. It's merely my experience and my opinion. You have yours, I have mine. Have a great day.

travelgourmet - I respectfully disagree with almost every word in your post above. While I won't attempt a tedious line-by-line rejoinder, as an example, in reference to your points on architecture - I happen to find structures like Notre Dame, the Pantheon, and Canterbury Cathedral much more fascinating than any modern structure you could name. Maybe it's not just the buildings themselves, but the palpable sense of history that permeates these places. Of course, that's just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.

I love living in the Good Ole USA, but I want something completely different in my vacation time, and Europe fills the bill.

Wine's better

suze - I think you're having some fun with us here.

Castles.

And I think the notion that the US is homogenized due to chain businesses is laughable. As if you don't find McDonald's in every major area of every major city in Europe! Welcome to Piazza di Spagna, would you like fries with that?

In Britain, Boots is omnipresent; ditto W.H. Smith, M&S Simply Food and various other chain stores. But I would never say that England, Scotland and Wales are homogenous. I'm pretty sure the Scots and Welsh would be less than pleased with that notion too.

And the overarching notion that "food is better" in Europe is just too foolish for words. Go eat a Bulgarian, Moldavian or Belarussian diet and tell Americans how much better the food is across the pond.

alw1977 - Do you actually spend much time in Europe? I don't mean this as an insult, but a serious question. Europe is as increasingly homogenized as anywhere in the US. I go into a store in Zurich and it is exactly the same brands that I see in Copenhagen or London. Sure, it may be Brax, rather than Dockers, but who cares? It is still homogenization. When in France, I often end up in Monoprix or Carrefour or some other chain. Just because you are familiar with Wal-Mart doesn't mean that it is fundamentally different from Carrefour. Indeed, they are competitors in many markets.

And, FWIW, I encounter many, many Europeans that love Starbucks.

phillyboy - Did I not say that one should travel to Europe if they are interested in the history? What I object to is the inference that one enjoys architecture, writ large, and that they can enjoy architecture more in Europe than in the US. This simply isn't true. Sure, medieval architecture buffs should be happier in Europe, but if you enjoy architecture broadly, then you wouldn't shortchange the significant architectural landmarks that are on offer in the US. If people meant that they enjoy medieval architecture, then they should say so. Just saying that one goes to Europe for the architecture smacks of pretense.

Suze - Seriously?

I'm always suspicious that anyone who insists that all of the food is better in Europe is eating very oddly at home in the U.S. That said, of course French food is better in France and Italian food is better in Italy, just as American food is better in the U.S. (as anyone who has ever eaten in an "American-style" restaurant abroad can attest).

Hey pb,

>...French are arrogant, rude, and frivolous; Poles are unintelligent; British have bad teeth and a superiority complex; Germans are humorless, beer-drinking megalomaniacs; Italians are loud, uncouth gangsters,....< They aren't?
....................................................
Hey tg,
>The whole "homogenous" US is a laughable myth as well.<

A few years ago, my Lady Wife and I drove from Annapolis, MD to Tucson AZ. This is about the distance from Lisbon to Moscow. Most of the trip was on highways.

The language did not change.
The road signs did not change.
The shopping centers did not change.
The motels did not change.

The only way to tell which state you were in was to look at license plates.

>....there is a night and day difference between Boston and Atlanta. Be it food or culture or the proper respect for college football.<

Yes, A is different from B, but not to the extent that Marseille is different from Frankfurt (about the same distance).

Compared to Europe, the US is very homogeneous.
Ditto: South and Central America, most of Asia, Africa, the Middle East.
..................................................................
Even with airfare, we can visit the major (and minor) cities of Europe for about the same price as visiting similar places in the US - and the food and wine is better.

tg

>If people meant that they enjoy medieval architecture, then they should say so. Just saying that one goes to Europe for the architecture smacks of pretense.< ... now be honest, aren't you really splitting hairs here? Because I said I enjoy the architecture, and didn't qualify it with the adjective of your choice, that makes me pretentious?


HMMMM - I can feel the tone getting a little testy on this thread.

travelgourmet - are you kidding? One visit to a great vegetable, fruit, fish market, such as the one in Venice convinces me that the food in Europe is better. The strawberries! Never seen anything like them here, not even at the Ferry Building market in SF. The lettuce! The salad I had last week at the autogrill was far superior to any salad I had in the US almost ever. The fish, the vegetables like jewels! No farmer's market I have seen in the US can compare. Anyway, I am sure you disagree but I go to Europe for the food (among other things)! I'm just sayin.

Yes, A is different from B, but not to the extent that Marseille is different from Frankfurt (about the same distance).

The biggest difference between them is that one is a boring, uninspiring banking center (i.e. Charlotte) and the other is a depressed, seen-better-days port city (i.e. Baltimore). Seriously.

Just this year, I moved from Denmark to Switzerland. The road signs did not change (they are largely standardized). The motels did not change. The Globus in Zurich is indistinguishable from the Magasin in Copenhagen. So, we are left with just language. If that is all the variety one needs, then rent a foreign language film or two. Though the most popular movies are American movies, so you may just have to settle for buying a German version of Terminator: Salvation.

And, Ira, what is with the food and wine garbage? I thought you were smarter than that. Seriously. Anyone that claims this doesn't actually take their food or wine seriously. Google "Judgement of Paris". There is a lot of astounding wine being made in the US (and in Europe). That you don't bother to buy the good stuff doesn't mean it isn't there. Ditto for food. Aren't you from Georgia? Do you honestly believe that Low Country cuisine is not deserving of the same respect accorded any other regional cuisine? A truly top-notch Shrimp and Grits is a revelation.

I had a really great geography teacher in high school. He inspired me to dream of one day traveling to England. That was my main focus -- traveling to England. I fell in love with the romantic idea of royalty and castles.

So in 1977, two years after DH and I got married, we made our first trip to Europe. We visited London, Paris and Amsterdam. I was hooked!

While we might have a building in my city that's 70-80 yrs old and hasn't been torn down for a mall or high rise, they actually have buildings still in use that are 700 yrs old or more.

rbnwdln - I used to live down the street from Julia Child's former butcher. The quality of beef and produce I got there rivals anything I have found in Europe. Don't get me wrong, I love going to markets and the like. I spend obscene amounts of money getting the best ingredients. But I don't find it any harder to find those ingredients in the US than in Europe.

And let's be clear what we mean by "Europe". We mean much of France, parts of Italy, maybe a bit of Spain. This is like saying that, because California has great produce, that Ohio does too - though this is probably more true than assuming that Denmark has great produce readily available (it doesn't) simply because you can find it in Paris. And much of Europe is a culinary wasteland, while places like Louisiana, the Low Country, and San Francisco/environs are world-class culinary destinations.

Again, this isn't meant as a slight toward Europe, just a counterpoint and reminder that one can find great architecture, theater, opera, food, wine, beer, public transit, natural beauty, fashion, art, etc. in the US. One should weigh what they truly want out of a destination and then choose the destination that meets those needs. Europe is no more a one-size-fits-all destination than the US.

I come to Europe every year because I always have a different experience.
Some experiences are good, some are not so good.
I like the museums, architecture, history, food, and languages.
I visit my old friends and their families.


But I wouldn't say that Europe is better or worse than the US. Many of my friends in the US ask me, "Europe AGAIN? You just went like, 8 months ago." They don't understand why I keep returning and staying for longer periods of time each visit.


I think one can't really compare any European country with the US.
It's just different. It's a different way of life and a different mentality.
For me, traveling to Europe every year keeps me open-minded and this awareness helps me grow personally and professionally.

Conversation ender;"Didn't you go there last year?"

Yes, and I slept with my wife last night - should I switch that up too? (Don't answer that you bad bad people

Conversation ender; "Didn't you go there last year?"

Yes, and I slept with my wife last night - should I switch that up too? (Don't answer that you bad bad people

Oh, and I think travelgourmet is right about the issue of food. I'm living in the Czech Republic right now and I think the food really can't compare to France or Belgium. I've tried to eat local cuisine but I personally think the quality is a bit poor. I find myself having to buy imported things like muesli from Germany, cheese from France, ham from Austria, and pasta from Italy. But, I do buy Czech beer.

I just love it and I agree with Bob the Nav(hi Bob), and if possible would go 4 times a year! In fact, if I won the Lotto, I would buy a flat in London, and travel through Europe,,,AS MUCH AS I WANT! Ha, how's that! .

Because it is so pleasing to the eye and I can speak in (foreign) tongues.

Judyrem, I'm with you! I'd probably have to come back to Texas once in awhile for some Mexican food though.

I'm really missing Mexican food right now.

Tex-Mex, and Baja Mex food...yum... can't find that here in Europe!

Phillyboy, what an excellent thread! To explain why one loves Europe is like having to explain a joke. I agree with the above posters – many folks are threatened by exploring a foreign environment and prefer their own comfort zones.

Bob, you are the man – your reply says it all: “Those who ask will never understand anyway.”

Happy travels to all….

Personally, I like vacationing in Europe and the US - but for different reasons.

I like visiting Europe for the centuries & millennia of history, the centuries-old architecture, the art, and the many different cultures that exist in an area that is very small compared to the size of the US. I also appreciate that even with air fare, I can vacation in Europe for less than it can cost me in the US.

I vacation in the US for its natural beauty.

With all due respect to Ira, there's a huge difference between Tucson & Maryland. The stores are the same but the geography, flora, climate, and architecture are very different. And those are all great reasons for visiting Tucson - in the fall, winter, or spring.

I have to admit that I don't understand why people rave about the food in Europe. (Except for gelato. That I understand.) I can buy excellent quality produce at our local farmers' markets.

IME, it's much easier to find a huge variety of good quality cheese in Europe.

Here in the US, go to a supermarket and you have the choice of fake Kraft cheese or Velveeta.

To buy real good cheese, one has to go search for some specialty store and pay $10-$15/lb for decent cheese.

Well I agree with everybody. ;->

We are usually California residents but are living in Amsterdam this year, and I love the opportunity to travel easily among various European countries. I too like the diversity and the "old stuff". And the variety of older architectural styles found in different countries. An Amsterdam canal house is quite different than a Tuscan farmhouse.

That being said, I think you make very good points, travelgourmet.

I agree that the various States are quite diverse in many ways too. On our way over here last August, we drove from San Francisco through LA, Tucson, San Antonio, New Orleans, Orlando, Charleston, Williamsburg, and DC - all places I had been before, but the beauty and diversity of the US really struck me anew. And it was a good counterpoint to the diversity in Europe to see different parts of the US right before we came over. An adobe house in New Mexico is quite different that a plantation house in New Orleans. And the saguaros of the Sonoran desert look radically unlike the fir forests of Oregon and the beaches of Florida.

And don't get me started on the food. Our DD was doing a university year in Paris this year and I've been back and forth to Paris probably 12 or 15 times this year (never let it be said I'm not a dedicated parent - the sacrifices I make). Anyway, two of the worst meals I've had in my life, anywhere, were in random Paris brasseries. I've been to plenty of random places in the States and never encountered the like, thank heavens. And frankly there are so many restaurants in San Francisco and Sonoma County (where we usually live) that are at least as good and usually better than even many of the good meals I've had in Paris that ... well I agree with whoever said above that anyone who thinks that food in Europe, even in the parts of Europe known for good food, is generally better than food in the US is eating very oddly in the US. (yk, the number and variety of cheeses, both from artisanal local producers and from other countries, in Sonoma County grocery stores bears no resemblance to the description of what you say you find in your supermarket. I'm curious, where do you live? Maybe you should move!)

Our year here is due to end in a couple of months, but it looks like we may be back here in the summers for DH's work for the next few years. Summers in Amsterdam, winters in California - I would be glad to keep reporting on the advantages of both places!

Robespierre - I pretty much agree with your list, but for myself I would also add beer to it.

Europe is becoming more homonogeous but it's still not like the States.

In Europe, people still speak different languages. There are different traditions in each country. Food specialties are different in each country. And the scenery is very different in each country.

I find speaking to the locals, getting to know them, laughing with them and having a good discussion about God and the world helps me to understand everything I see.

For your non-understading frieds: "it's MY money and MY vacation."

Can I make a little contribution as an Australian? I love Europe for the contrast between the new of Australia and the old of Europe. To have visited landmarks in Europe and seen sculptures etc that are thousands of years old is, to me, a miracle.

I love that even some cafes in Paris, for instance, have been in the same location for generations. In Australia, and I suspect the US, any particular shop will have seen several different owners and businesses over the years.

I love that European cities don't seem to have followed the trend of enormous shopping malls, but have continued the tradition of smaller boutiques.

Thank you for a very interesting thread, I'm enjoying it enormously.

Ok I didn't read everything. What keeps me wanting to go back? I think I have some genetic need for little lanes with window boxes, streets that turn into stairs, nuns and old ladies leaning out windows and chatting with other old ladies down below. Public squares, piazzas big and small lined with cafes and restaurants. And all the better if this can be before or after swimming in the mediterranean/adriatic. But of course the food too. Long leisurely lunches, wine with lunch, slices of cured meets made the same way their great grandfather made it, olive oil, wine. sigh

JeanneB
Your question about whether a love for European travel is generational interested me. It isn't true in our family.
Our kids got a great early introduction to western civilization through a 5th and 6th grade elementary school teacher. Also we had lots of books and movies around the house like David Macaulay's excellent Cathedral, Castle and Roman City. And we traveled to Europe and Central America as a family when they were quite young.

Our younger son listed Rome as the place he would most like to visit for about 4 years running. My husband and I finally rented an apartment in Rome for a week when he was 16 (figuring we didn't have too many years left when he would want to travel with us) and we all had a wonderful time. His main interest was in ancient Roman history but he stretched his mind with visits to the Vatican museums and a reasonable number of churches and absolutely fell in love with the Piazza Navona.

I find there is a certain 'joie de vivre' in Europe that you just don't find anywhere else. Also how things vary between the different countries and the general graciousness of the people keeps me coming back time and time again. I adore the sophistication of Paris and the buzz and excitement that is London!

The entire idea of city-states always intrigued me. Although we had the north-south war in the U.S., I can't get my mind around the idea of Baltimore being a separate country invading Annapolis!

I'm more familiar with Italy and France but I think there are remnants today of that background of independent cities, the Roman Empire and the Papal "stuff". Anyone who has been transported to the 14th century while finding his or her way in Venice knows this feeling. Sitting in Piazza Navona with the Bernini and old architecture is, again, moving to me in a way that San Fran and NYC were not (and I loved those places),

With food in the US, it is more difficult to shop at farmers' markets and to find many specialty items at the big chains. Since we stay at hotels, our food shopping in Europe would be limited. But our experience was that if something wasn't in season, one had to come back in the correct month to get it in Italy and France. Signature wine we bought in Bologna was difficult to find in Venice.

I'm rambling. Sorry. Maybe there is a "traveling" gene and we Fodorites have it!

> travelgourmet on Jun 25, 09 at 06:17 PM <
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. It is not necessary to be unpleasant.

In addition, I was talking about diversity, not quality.
................................................
Hi Shan,

>there's a huge difference between Tucson & Maryland. The stores are the same but the geography, flora, climate, and architecture are very different. And those are all great reasons for visiting Tucson - in the fall, winter, or spring.<

IMO, you are correct about the geography, flora and climate. Architecture, not so much. I think that Tucson is very nice in the more temperate seasons.

The distance between Tucson and Baltimore is about that of Lisbon to Helsinki. Which pair would you say were more different?

And, Phillyboy, I was transported in Philadelphia. The ghosts of Adams and Jefferson touched my shoulder in that room where they "hashed out" our constitution.

NorCalif - If I go to a specialty shop or our farmer's market, there are local cheese I can get. I live in MA, so there are definitely MA and VT cheese I can buy. But many times, artisan cheese made locally are limited to various types of cheddar, gouda, goat cheese - due to demand.

My point is, I believe in Europe, it's a lot easier to get very different types of cheese from different countries and regions (ie, not limited to cheddar, gouda or goat cheese). I do live near a produce shop with a great cheese section here at home, so the last month or so, I got to try a goat cheese from Murcia Spain, a pungent cheese from Styria Austria, and Gruyere from Switzerland; as long as I don't mind paying $14/lb. However, these specialty shops are few and far between (about 5 such places in the entire greater Boston area).

On my way up to heaven I want to be able to look down and say ... "I have been there, and there, and there" etc. If I am going to hell, I will wish I had spent more time in the tropics preparing ...

TDudette - Embarassed to admit it, but even though I've lived in the Philadelphia my entire life, I haven't visited the historical sites in the city since I was a kid ... and I'm 56 years old now. I wonder if others here have similar stories.

Gotta get to that sometime ....

... meant to say "...the Philadelphia area ... " duh

TDudette:
Maybe there is a "traveling" gene and we Fodorites have it!

I think that you've nailed it. I went on Paul McGrath's "the other Spain" tour a few weeks ago and there were 3 other women on the tour. I had never met them before yet we immediately hit it off because we all passionately loved to travel. They were kindred spirits.

Ira:
The distance between Tucson and Baltimore is about that of Lisbon to Helsinki. Which pair would you say were more different?

As a former Tucsonian, I think I can honestly say that most Tucsonians would be horrified to be compared to Baltimore. I apologize to people who live in Baltimore, but people in Tucson (at least when I lived there) thought their city was not only a wonderful place to live, but that it was unique, and that it was nothing like an Anglo town on the eastern seaboard.

Like I wrote above, I was just in Spain and it was interesting to see the similarities between Andalucia and Tucson. The gardens were very similar - in the plants and in the architecture. Some of the buildings reminded me of the older style architecture in Tucson. So it's thousands of miles and many, many years since the Spanish were in southern Arizona, but their influence still lingers.

cathies, as a Canadian I totally agree with your sentiment. I love traveling in Europe and also in the US because of the little differences between what is there and what we get at home. I love looking in grocery stores and seeing different types of products. Even the homogenized fast food places have different local offerings. I'm endlessly amazed at different transportation options and even the way toilets work in different places. Canada has a lot of great things but we don't have many castles or centuries-old buildings or an ancient food culture. We don't have anything like the Grand Canyon or Las Vegas or St. Augustine either. People travel to see something different, whether it is to a different continent or a different state.

I echo many sentiments above. There is a bit of a challenge in traveling (independently) in Europe, and I enjoy the planning and strategic process.

I also feel drawn to Europe over and over. I'd always been an Anglophile, but haven't yet traveled to the continent. It's in my plans, though! I just have to get my travel companions used to the idea of traveling in a land with a different language.

What I love about Europe:

-The slower pace of life
-The sense of family/community of the smaller towns and villages
-The sheer hisory, layer after layer
-The compactness of the sites/beauty/landscapes, i.e., so many places to visit in a one hour radius
-The food is simpler, more delicious, healthier
-The people have been friendlier, in my experience
-The folks I meet seem to have a higher level of interest in world events, education, dynamic conversations
-Being able to visit 5000 year old monuments

I have discovered the main difference between North Americans and Europeans is that North Americans (I'm including Canadians in this!) think 100 years is a long time, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long way

I absolutely adore old world and antiquities. Going to Europe for me is like being transported back in time. I feel at home when I am in Paris. I can't explain it and to me there is nothing special to the visual eye about Paris than in any other Country. But it just feels right to me.

I've always felt since my first trip in 2005, there is no way I would be able to explain Paris. You don't see Paris, you feel it and that's what keeps me coming back every year. It's the monkey on my back, my addiction.

Dwebb- I have that same feeling about Paris. It just feels right and I could go back over and over although I feel I have "done" it. Same feeling with Prague, to a lesser degree.

That said, I do lament the creeping globalization and homogenization that I see just about everywhere in Europe. It's just not as "different" as it used to be- even the money is blander now (Euros).

Rick

Just being a Devil's Advocate for a moment~

While many people here say they go to Europe because of ancient history...

I wonder how many Americans here have been to (or heard of) Cahokia Mounds? One of the rare pre-historic sites in the US that's about 1000 year old. It's just outside of St Louis, yet I rarely see this place mentioned here, nor on St Louis trip reports.

Rick, thanks for your comments. I am beginning to get the sense that Europe is becoming a bit too Westernized and for that reason I am trying to travel in the US more. But I am hanging on to Paris as long as I can. It's my crack.

YK - I don't think you are being a Devil's Advocate. You are right. At one point I was feeling guilty about not traveling in my own back yard. I guess we seek other places to travel because (IMO) the US is not presented to Americans as a vacation spot. Just as Parisian's travel outside of Paris for vacation, American's basically do the same. I have compromised with myself though. I travel once in the US and once in Europe every year.

So no, I never heard of the Cahokia Mounds, but I am investigating the US more and perhaps I will get to visit these places.

Thanks!

I used to live in St. Louis and I've never heard of it.

Re: Cahokia Mounds

There are only 19 UNESCO World Heritage sites in the US of A (in comparison, UK has 27); and Cahokia Mounds is one of the 19 sites.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/198

P.S. Cahokia Mounds was inscribed in 1982.

I have heard about Cahokia Mounds but not visited.

Europe definitely does not have a monopoly on interesting history. Our family has really enjoyed traveling in Mexico and Guatemala and seeing the wonderful colonial cities and amazing Mayan ruins.

GreenDragon<I'm including Canadians in this!) think 100 years is a long time, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long way >

You made me smile..But is true.

I am European by birth so I cant comment on why Americans like to vacation in Europe.

The only thing that I can say is that the first time that I took my then 7 years old Grnddaughter to Rome, she fell in love with the city.

Brooke was mesmerized by the beautiful churches, fountains ,Trevi Fountain was her favourites and we had to stop there many times during the day.

She was also fascinated by the Romans Forums,Colosseum etc..,

Since then we went back to Europe many times ,she loves Europe and we are going back in September.

However, I will always remember the ecstatic expression on her face the first time that she saw Rome.

yk, I have heard of the mounds, as well as ancient American sites in New Mexico, Arizona, etc. My point above is that it is a long way between each of those sites, days of driving or long waits in the airport. Whereas they are squished all together in Europe, with lots of other non-homogenous stuff, like the villages, cafes, city squares, museums, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some beautiful things in the US. Acadian National Park in Maine. The Everglades. Blue Ridge Mountains. Pike's Peak. San Francisco. The Forts and Lighthouse at St. Augustine, America's oldest city. However, there are some places in Europe called 'New Town' that are older than that


I also feel at home in the British Isles, especially in Ireland. I feel well balanced, like I've got all four feet on the ground (yes, I know I physically have only two). In the US, I feel like I'm trying to balance on one.

One reason I think everyone should travel outside the US is to get the view from the other side. No matter where you live in the US, there is an attitude nearly universally common among those who haven't traveled: that we have the best governmental and economic system, the best lifestyle, etc. It's nearly impossible to give people a true view of other ways of life until they are in another country.

I mean, OK, we live in huge (relatively speaking) houses, have closets full of clothes, a multitude of cars which we can afford to drive all over town all the time (well, at least when gas isn't $5 a gallon), all kind of consumer goods. On the other hand, we pay for this with heavy work schedules, very limited vacations, often living at a distance from family members, carrying mountains of debt, hours spent in traffic jams during rush hour, and so forth. In some fields (for example law) many compete to see who can work the most, and many people don't even take the two weeks vacation a year they get or take it only a few days at a time. This is ridiculous.

One of the things I love about the European countries I've visited is the pace of life. People seem to work to live, rather than live to work. They often see a lot of their families. While fast food serves its purpose, people prefer to luxuriate over a leisurely meal.

The other thing is the political view. I'll never forget my first trip to Europe, in 1984, when the USSR was the evil empire. I was touring around with a busload of Australians. It seemed so obvious to me that we were the guys in the white hats and the Russians were the guys in the black hats, and that of course people in other non-communist countries saw it that way. The Australians informed me that from their point of view, the US and the USSR were just two bullies who wanted to drag everyone else into their fight. I certainly never heard such a thing anywhere in the US.

As a country we're a better citizen of the world when as individuals we understand more about how the rest of the world thinks and feels, and when we understand that their point of view is also valid and worth considering. It is not self-evident to non-Americans that our way is best. While a lot of people want to immigrate here, there are more that are perfectly happy to stay right where they are.

It would be nice if more Europeans (particularly a few regular non American posters in the Lounge) tried visiting the U.S. with the same open attitude. Living in Europe, we hear (and read on Fodors) many preposterous and inaccurate stereotypes about the U.S.

For example, the food in many places in the U.S. is terrific. Many communities have vibrant arts and cultural scenes, even in this troubled economy. There is far more diversity than (some) Europeans want to acknowledge. But it's true, America's great outdoors is amazing.

I travel in Europe because I can.

There are things there that you can't possibly do in the U.S.

For just one example: Stepping into a 1000 year old, still vibrant cathedral. Yes, the U.S. is also beautiful, but even if it gets to be that old, I doubt if the buildings will stand for 1000 years. Staying in an apartment in a 400 year old building, gives you a feeling beyond compare.

And quite frankly, the people in Paris are most times freindlier than the big cities is the U.S.

For all of you naysayers, give it a try.

Very interesting thread. As far as food goes, I definitely don't agree that food is necessarily better in Europe. I've been going to Europe, all over, except the Eastern countries, since 73. Of course there are some dishes that might be better in Europe because they are European dishes. Just as some dishes in the U.S. might be better because they are American dishes.

As for American food, if folks think that it's not as good as food in Europe, then I honestly don't know where they've been eating. I get excellent food (and wine) right here in California and really look forward to coming home to eat.

The produce that I get all year round here can't be beat. I sure couldn't always get the same quality and never the diversity of produce most of the 20-plus years of summers that I lived in Copenhagen for example. I have a close American friend who's lived in Copenhagen since the early 70s, and she's been quite frustrated, from time to time, with having to pay a fortune to get the quality of fruit and vegetables that she's used to, even buying in season.

I remember the days in Copenhagen not seeing many vegetables other than carrots, peas, cabbage, and potatoes served by most of my friends when I was invited over for a meal. And I remember when something as simple as iceberg lettuce wasn't available. I also remember biking all around looking for a sweet potato as I was really tired of white potatoes, brown sauce, peas and carrots nearly daily. It was good that I lived in an area with Turkish grocers because that's where I started shopping to get some diversity. I remember finding okra at a Turkish grocer and felt as if I had struck gold. Finally something different!

I'm not saying that Danish food wasn't good. Many times it was quite good, just not very diverse. American food is also quite good. Here at home, I had been eating very diverse along with delicious food since childhood and seldom ate the same thing over and over again. There's a lot of darn good American food out there.

Besides spending a lot of time in Denmark, I've also spent a lot of time traveling in other European countries...most of the Western European ones and like anywhere, including here at home, I've had good meals, great meals, and horrible meals. Happy Travels!

"One of the rare pre-historic sites in the US that's about 1000 year old."

Only an American could possibly call something a mere thousand years old "pre-historic"

Round here we call something that recent "the new church". In parts of Italy "the new bit of my house"

"I have discovered the main difference between North Americans and Europeans is that North Americans (I'm including Canadians in this!) think 100 years is a long time, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long way "

So true, GreenDragon! We go 100 miles and could be in another state here; another country in Europe. Makes a difference.

Could one speculate that many of the best restaurants in USA are not American food but French, Chinese, Italian etc.??? Many countries will not import the American beef the McDonald's want them to use. Isn't that interesting?

Shanti, I'll look up Paul McGrath-sounds good. Now about Baltimore....it has many layers so I won't disagree with you totally but it is a very interesting city to get to know. I live about 40 miles away but maybe we should trade houses! I've never been to Tucson! Keep going to Italy. Bmore has world class schools, hospitals, art and culture in addition to its touristy stuff. I did understand what you said and promise I didn't take offense!

Oh, of the handful of Europeans I've met who have visited the US, most were amazed by the size of the country and its openess.

ps, here is a site (from Fodors forum)

http://www.theotherspain.galeon.com/productos1249195.html

Anyone have feedback or updates?


Also, phillyboy, hope you do take a day or 2 and get to the sites. We took the tour a few years ago and got a lot out of it.

YK- That could be true about the cheese. But, for those of us who have dairy allergies and need to have, for example, non-dairy products, well, as far as addressing food allergies I have always found them more difficult to deal with in Europe. I really wonder how folks, with food allergies, get along there. I don't have a problem with it here at home, in California, as there's so much variety in cooking here. I can go to about any restaurant and eat around my 3 major food allergies. In Europe, not so easy. I have European friends, with kids who have food allergies, and they have a hard time.

I haven't always had a dairy allergy, so for decades I ate a variety of foods at restaurants throughout Europe. But, when the allergy resurfaced, eating in Europe became a problem.
Here at home, it isn't a problem. I've been eating soy ice cream since the mid 70s here in California. And I've consumed soy milk since the late 50s. Not a big deal here. If one can't eat ice cream made from cow's milk, for example, then there's ice cream based from either soy, rice, or coconut milk. And there's food at restaurants that's either dairy free or sometimes coconut milk is used. There's just more variety on menus here to meet the needs of more people. And even if it's a small restaurant, the restaurant is usually very accommodating to one's food needs. Happy Travels!

Oh yeah - there's always screaming down the Autobahn at 250kph in a brand-new Mercedes.

Hi Shan,

>people in Tucson (at least when I lived there) thought their city was not only a wonderful place to live, but that it was unique, and that it was nothing like an Anglo town on the eastern seaboard.<

Well, that's not completely correct, IME, but it doesn't answer my question.

Is Helsinki more or less different from Lisbon than Tucson is from Baltimore? You may assume that they speak passable English in all 4 cities.
....................................................................
Hi GD,

>The people have been friendlier, in my experience<
You haven't had the right experiences in the US.

>I have discovered the main difference between North Americans and Europeans is that North Americans (I'm including Canadians in this!) think 100 years is a long time, while Europeans think 100 miles is a long way,<

That is a very good line.
.........................................................
Hi yk,

>I wonder how many Americans here have been to (or heard of) Cahokia Mounds? One of the rare pre-historic sites in the US that's about 1000 year old.<

Etowah Indian Mounds near Cartersville, GA dates from about 1000 AD.
....................................................................
There have been some posts comparing the food in Denmark (not too palatable, rather plain) to that in America.

That is like comparing the food in Iowa to that of Europe.

jeanneb, I must say that I was surprised to read that you used to live in St. Louis and never heard of Cahokia Mounds! I was born and raised in IL, about 20 miles from St. Louis, and used to drive by the mounds every day on my way to work. I remember going there with field trips in school and with my parents when I was older. It's a shame that you didn't know about them. The museum is quite nice, and on occassion they used to do different kinds of reinactments.

http://www.explorestlouis.com/myStl/memberDetails.asp?mID=1719&pt=1&ic=2

Tracy

There's a wonderful line in the movie "LA Story", when Steve Martin's character is showing an English woman (played by Victoria Tennant) around Los Angeles. He says, "There's a lot of history here. Some of these buildings are 20, 25 years old!"

I visit Europe partly because I AM a timid traveler. If I had more nerve I'd go to Africa or Antarctica. I also travel in Europe to practice my foreign languages, so I tend to return to those countries where I speak the language, and avoid those where I don't.

100 miles (160 Km) may not be a long distance in Texas, but here in Massachusetts, it will get you most of the way across the state. The long dimension.

Could one speculate that many of the best restaurants in USA are not American food but French, Chinese, Italian etc.???

One could speculate, but I think they would be wrong. Indeed, I doubt that you could classify most of the best European restaurants as such, either. The best restaurants, in my experience, show broad influences. There is a place for a perfect French bistro, but I don't think even the best bistro rises to the "best restaurant" category.

And even if one wants to elevate simple, regional cuisine to the upper echelons, there are plenty of examples of excellent regional cuisine in the US, such as Low Country cuisine, Cajun, Creole, various iterations of BBQ, Pacific NW seafood, Northern California cuisine, Tex-Mex, and on and on.

That is like comparing the food in Iowa to that of Europe.

Except Denmark is in Europe. As are Switzerland, Holland, Norway, Sweden, the Czech Republic, Poland, Ireland, Scotland, England, Austria, etc. The reality is that most of Europe has very ordinary food. At the end of the day, you have France, Italy, and Spain as the culinary heavyweights and a bunch of also-rans. In the US, you have Louisiana, the Low Countries, Northern California, the Southwest, and a bunch of also-rans. What, exactly, is the difference?

>> The reality is that most of Europe has very ordinary food. At the end of the day, you have France, Italy, and Spain as the culinary heavyweights and a bunch of also-rans.


I think travelgourmet has a good point.


There's great food in the US and there's also great food in Europe. But not everywhere in the US and not everywhere in Europe.


A few years ago I used to think that Europe had "finer foods", "better wine" and "more diversity." I don't know why but now I don't believe this is true anymore. At least not with those adjectives...

At this point in our lives, we plan overseas travel - Europe and Asia so far, other continents on our list - because we can. We have the time, money, and health to do it. There are plenty of places in the US that we would like to see or see again - but we don't know what the future holds, so we travel overseas while we have the opportunity.

tcreath: I only lived in St Louis for 16 months. And I was on a special assignment with my job that left little time for tourist outings. Wish I'd had more time...it sounds incredible.

Because my 82 year old MIL lives with us and the only way we can get any peace is to go to a different continent. And even there the other family members call to ask us what to do with her.



dave

TDudette,

I'm glad that you weren't offended. I really didn't mean to give offense. I was trying to convey how Tucson (at least in the past) was a quite different place to live compared to greener & more populated areas back East.

I went on Paul's tour a few weeks ago and enjoyed it. It gave me a little taste of smaller town Andalucia without having to rent a car and drive. The great company during the day was icing on the cake.

Ira,

I would assume that Baltimore and Tucson have more in common than do Helsinki and Lisbon. But since I haven't been to Baltimore, Helsinki, or Lisbon - I can only assume. (Boy, now I have even more places to visit. So little time, so many potential vacations.)

The refusal to import American beef isn't a quality issue (although McDonald's desire to have it is one, or more accurately a consistencey issue), but a need to protect local agriculture. McDonalds, like it or not, is a huge consumer of agricultural products, and has historically bought more locally than you might think.

And of course some people don't like being out of their comfort zone, but I think there can be a tendency to mystify European travel. I have met a number of people who felt that they wouldn't enjoy European travel because their interests aren't overwhelmingly intellectual. It would certainly not be a good choice for the colleague of mine who was bored and confused by Colonial Williamsburg, but almost anyone with a lively interest in the world around them would probably enjoy the right trip. A lot of the time it's just not presented that way.

Nancita and travelingourmet have valid points about food in Europe IMO. We have had great food there and great food here in the US. It is not the food that draws me there...it is the "whole" experience, sights, sounds, history, and people.

We vacation in Europe because we live here. there's plenty to see and do, people are nice, and I hate flying.

But whenever I do go back to the U.S., I have a fantastic time, eat terrific food, and enjoy the company of intelligent, relaxed people who have a great sense of humor.

We live about 75 minutes from the border of Quebec province, about 2 1/2 hours from Montreal, so we can experience another country with another language within a very short distance. We love being able to do this so easily and are constantly surprised by the number of people in central Vermont who never go to Quebec.

We also love to travel in Europe. I agree with Judyrem: it is the whole cultural experience that draws us.

Taking beer as an example: I agree with others that one of the great things about traveling in (some countries of) Europe is sampling good beer. Although the quality of beer in the US has definitely come a very long way in the past 30 years or so, there is nothing in the US that compares to my favorite beer garden in Bavaria. This is at the Kloster Weltenburg in a beautiful setting on the banks of the Danube near Kelheim/Regensburg. The beer is great; the monastery has been in operation since 1050 and you can wander into the abbey church with its dramatic architecture and a theatrically illuminated statue of St. George by the Asam brothers.

>The refusal to import American beef isn't a quality issue (although McDonald's desire to have it is one, or more accurately a consistencey issue), but a need to protect local agriculture.<

There is no ban on US beef in the EU, only synthetic hormone raised beef and as the bulk of US cattle are routinely implanted with hormones it falls foul of the ban.

http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/hormones_meat.htm

From just the other side of the Vermont/Quebec border (okay Ottawa), I agree with vttraveler. There is nothing like bavarian beer.

Hi shan,

>I would assume that Baltimore and Tucson have more in common than do Helsinki and Lisbon.<

You are correct.

That was my point - more difference per mile, not what is better than which.

I love to travel in Europe also. When I return home I miss the sound of different language. Mostly I love the architecture especially the old churches.

I live in NY and I can go to Queens and hear 175 languages being spoken. It is much more than lanaguage and avoiding the malling of America.

By the way, the oddest comparsion is Tucson and Southern Spain. In Spain I have not seen miles of car dealerships, yet, and in Tucson I have not seen anything that resembles a good meal. There is a great similarity in the over development of housing for people who were not born there.

While commerical intrusions and pop culture manifestations continue to raze old cultures, the old cultures are stll present. How exciting is it to walk around Rome, turn a corner and happen upon an antiquity while eating your 12th gelati of the day.

How about walking along the Seine at night where there is extraordinary use of lighting upon a centuries old cathedral?

Then there are the visits to small towns and cities, where there are remanants of an older life, many activities kept by choice.

The food is also central to the visit from the every day fare to the haute cuisine of a nation.

And those are just sensory experiences, let alone the intellectual stimulation.

Although I am omitting many other attractions, if at all possible meeting people and being invited into their homes or simply speaking to them about their lives. It is all interesting to me.

The refusal to import American beef isn't a quality issue (although McDonald's desire to have it is one, or more accurately a consistencey issue), but a need to protect local agriculture. McDonalds, like it or not, is a huge consumer of agricultural products, and has historically bought more locally than you might think.

I am skeptical of claims that McD's is overly interested in importing American beef. McD's actually imports Australian and New Zealand beef into the US because they cannot source enough US beef that meets their standards for leanness (though they still consume a lot of US beef - they are the single biggest buyer in the US). If McD's can't fulfill their US demand from the US, I see no reason why they would bother trying to export it. Many (most?) of the foreign outlets use Australian beef.

But that is way off topic.

A few years ago I used to think that Europe had "finer foods", "better wine" and "more diversity." I don't know why but now I don't believe this is true anymore.

You don't believe it anymore because it isn't true anymore. It might have been at some point (though, again, probably not across Europe), but it hasn't been true for a while.

I love to visit Europe for the history. The oldest buildings in the US might date back to the 16th Century (California missions, cliff dwellings of SW) or earlier but they don't date back to the Romans, the Celts, etc. And then there is the cave art of Spain and France, we have nothing here that dates back that far. I love to see the structures, dolmans and the stone circles built by man before the invention of the wheel. Newgrange is older than the pyramids and is still watertight in a land with lots of rain.

Visiting Europe touches my imagination. I wonder what it would be like to be a child growing up in Ireland playing among the ruins of a castle that was built long ago. And visiting Europe reminds me that mankind has survived thru war, plague and fire to rebuild and move on.

Aduchamp,

If you've seen Tucson from the interstate highway - yep, it's incredibly utterly ugly. And, yes, it's grown ridiculously over the past decades. I think Speedway Boulevard was once dubbed the ugliest street in America. (Not true, but it sure is unattractive.)

I guess because I lived there, I was able to become familiar with the areas that weren't overdeveloped, that were still as beautiful as they were a century ago. (And we already know that 100 years is a long time to an American

The Granada casa that I stayed in reminded me so much of the hacienda style houses in Tucson - the wooden furniture and rafters, the colorful blanket, the central courtyard - although I know most Tucsonans don't live in haciendas anymore, but they're still around. The gardens in Seville with their tiled fountains, oleanders, and olives reminded me of similar gardens that I've seen in Tucson (although Seville uses a lot more water guzzling plants.)

Is Tucson a replica of southern Spain? No, Tucson is an American city and has been influenced by Anglos for over a century. But the Spanish influence is still there.

But I definitely disagree about

Sorry, I don't know how I posted too soon.

Anyway, Tucson gets lots of snowbirds so it has excellent restaurants. My kids and I have missed them since moving to California.

I enjoy going to a place where the buildings are constructed with the idea that they will be in use for centuries. Here in the US, 99.9% of construction is designed to last for decades, and then to be trashed.

American developers toss up a stack of concrete block, slap down some asphalt, and call the job done. No pride of design, no shade, no comfort for the "user" except for A/C set to 59°.

I live in Nashville, which bills itself as a "tourist town". Yet we have no coordinated way for a tourist to get around (much less a resident) other than by car. Our "mass transit" system is diesel bus, with a hub and spoke system that guarantees it will take you far longer to get anywhere by bus than it will by car. Most bus stops have NO shelter, just a "bus stop" sign on a post that is most often tilted. There are NO street maps to let one discover attractions that might be nearby -- much less to help you figure out where you are. Those "in charge" seem totally clueless as to the great lack in amenities -- I can only assume they've never actually traveled much themselves!

I was at a greenways meeting a couple of weeks ago, where our MAYOR mentioned the Velíb system in Paris, and thought it would be a wonderful thing to add here. Yet, Nashville's idea of a bike path is a stripe down the side of the road, leaving maybe one foot of substandard pavement for cyclists, with sometimes heavy traffic just inches away! (I admit, there are a few nicer bike lanes in town, but these are in limited areas.)

Well, my rant is beginning to ramble way off course, so I guess I should stop by restating that I just appreciate a place that has built up its infrastructure in a way that is coordinated, and works for the common person at a moderate cost. That place, to date, is NOT the U.S.

No, I have been to Tucson on business and pleasure and have seen it up close. And I will see more of it since my sister is retiring to a development in Florence.

Tucson and the restaurants - I've only been there once but as an authority on the subject I would advise: Hit the taco joints and skip the restaurants. I had beautiful tacos, wonderful pico de gallo fruit cups, lovely ceviche and that delicious drink, michelada: beer, tomato juice, lime, chili powder and salt, all mixed with the grandeur of a flaming spanish coffee at a fancy steak restaurant, only we were sitting in an indoor taco stand.
The two times we ate at a restaurant we were thoroughly disappointed. Wisconsin-style mexican food. Kind of generic and won't offend anyone too much. Lousy margaritas to boot.

Oops, got carried away. Just remembered this was an Europe thread. Mea culpa.

"I enjoy going to a place where the buildings are constructed with the idea that they will be in use for centuries."

Where, exactly is that? The overwhelming majority of European buildings get demolished within half a century. In most cases, their destruction improves the landscape considerably.

Some bits of Europe have some old buildings - though fewer and younger than you might think. Apart from the Tower and the Abbey, next to nothing in London is pre-Tudor, not very much is pre 18th century, and an extraordinary amount postdates Thatcher's accession: the thing that strikes us most about New York is how OLD much of it is compared to the City of London, for example (and both the cathedrals in Liverpool - where the tern "gerry-building" was invented - are a lot younger than New York's). The Paris some tourists (inexplicably in my view) go ga-ga about is the result of Haussmann's disgraceful destruction of the city's medieval heritage in the 1870s: it's newer, crasser and tackier than much of Washington.

Ruins apart, the reason Europe feels "old" is that tourists for the most part spend their time in the bits that have been around for a while. That's about 0.001% of the built environment.

Our builders are every bit as short-sighted as America's - as a few seconds in Paris' ghastly banlieue (or Slough) makes totally clear.

Sorry FlannerUK,

Up to 10 years ago, Swiss houses were built to last for centuries. Nowadays, things go faster and are built to last for perhaps 100 years.

My husband grew up in a house built in the 1500's. It will probably be torn down in the next ten years. Too expensive and run down to renovate.

We love Europe and prefer to vacation there over anywhere else. We have both traveled the US extensively for business and while there are some places we enjoy visiting (NYC, SFO) they are good for a weekend. But we put our major effort, time and money in Europe and try to go every year.

Food, culture, soaking in the daily life are what we enjoy most and we find ourselves drawn now to the smaller towns and villages as we plan our holidays.

Phillyboy,

What a great thread! This is why I love Europe:

-To me, it is the most beautiful place on earth.
-I get to walk through the steps of history.
-Everything is so old.
-I get to hear the sound of a different language almost constantly.
-I get to see former homes of people that I admire.
-The slow-paced culture.
-Just to see the culture differences is reason enough for me. I find that so intriguing.

I travel to Europe and to other places outside the U.S. mostly because I can experience more things novel to me for my travel dollar than I can in the U.S. It's not just getting to explore the scenery and history. Turning on the TV is interesting. Looking at billboards is interesting. Going into a supermarket is *great* entertainment. (The only time I experienced that in the U.S. is the first time I went in a supermarket in Northern California and discovered I was sightseeing in round-eyed wonder in the produce section.)

flanneruk:

Perhaps I should have paid more attention to the tense in my statement -- saying, instead, "where the buildings *have been* constructed with the idea that they will be in use for centuries". I agree; US developers have no exclusive on tactics for shortcuts in construction, and most who hire them are interested mostly in how little they can pay for a building that won't fall down on them while they're inside.

In these parts, Haussmann's works would qualify as ancient. Our only 19th century buildings are commercial structures along the riverfront, and barely escaped destruction in the 1960's -- which is when most of Haussmann's buildings would have come down in a bout of "urban renewal" -- the products of which are NOW being torn down to rectify that horrific mistake. At least Haussmann's Paris is built well enough that much of it *will* be standing, barring disaster, for hundreds of years to come.

Even our full-scale version of the Parthenon (and OURS has a roof on it!) is 20th century! (Though it's built of concrete, and so won't last quite as long as the original...)

KL467 said:

I get to hear the sound of a different language almost constantly.

You haven't traveled in California lately, have you?

re the "going to a supermarket is great entertainment" observation:
A few years ago I was shopping at a supermarket near our Rome apartment during a soccer match. The game was being played on the radio and when Rome scored a goal the staff and customers cheered wildly. Definitely not something that happens at our local Shaw's.

JeanneB, no I have not been to California in awhile. I do like to listen to the French language. I cannot wait until this coming Friday so I can hear the German language for two weeks!!!

I think that the reasons artsnletters listed are some of the same reasons that I enjoy Europe.

I also enjoy Europe for the history, for the old architecture, for the original sculptures and art that I would only see in pictures otherwise - and the pictures (even in pretty glossy books) don't do the original works justice. For instance, I had no idea that Monet's Water Lillies were so expansive until going to l'Orangerie. I couldn't have understood the concept of the lighting without being there in person.

Also, Americans are raised on a lot of European-based stories. For me, traveling to Europe means that I get to see these "fairy-tale" lands in person. One of my favorite experiences in Paris was climbing the stairs at Notre Dame and hanging out with the gargoyles. There are some stories that we probably don't even realize are European-based until we are there and we make a connection. I don't remember what it was, but I made some such connection while in London.

And while I realize that the life of a Parisian can become just as monotonous to the Parisian as the life of an American to an American, there is something endearing and more charming to me to watch everyday life in Europe. For example, I can't stand the screaming kids in the grocery store in America, but it's somewhat charming to watch the mischievious ones in Europe. I think it's a wonder of what it would be like to be that child - to grow up in a different culture than my own.

I think that ultimately the main reason I enjoy traveling to a foreign country is that I always feel more alive when I am exploring new lands, observing a new culture, and listening to foreign languages all at once. How can one not feel alive? It's also the challenge of going from being completely disconnected from a place because of all of those challenges to finding ways that you can personally make connections - and realizing how those connections are so different for each person who goes through the same process.

I don't travel necessarily to Europe all the time, but I do travel a lot. My limits are generally created by finances and free time rather than languages, borders and oceans. So, people do ask me why I am going to place B when I just went to place A. But, in my life, these are the same people who in one breath talk about wanting to go to Europe someday, but who then explain that they are afraid to fly over the ocean - or that their spouse is - or that they can't afford it (but they can afford every new piece of technology and spending every weekend shopping at the mall or buying lots of non-necessities at Wal-Mart). I figure that if you want to do something badly enough, you will work past your fears. So, I share as much about my adventures with these people as they ask me to, and I listen to them tell me about how they are going to someday go to Italy, or Ireland, or whereever...but I feel that they will probably never actually make the trip because it doesn't mean enough to them.

KL: I was just teasing. Your "reasons" fit mine to a tee. I may not understand everything they're saying, but I LOVE hearing French or Italian spoken all around me (haven't been to Germanic countries).

And while I do encourage those people to consider whether living their dreams are more important than being limited by their fears and I explain that I can help them plan an affordable European experience, I start to sound like a broken record when we have the same discussion after every one of my adventures. At that point, I wonder whether Europe is really right for them anyway since they aren't open-minded enough to just get there (being there requires being more open-minded than flying over an ocean or trying to change the thoughtless American spending on non-essential items).

If it's not right for them, I'd prefer they not go anyway - They should spend time doing something that does make them happy (maybe that is consuming beyond their means). I sometimes think that some Americans just say that they want to go to someplace in Europe because they hear so many other people say it...They probably don't realize that's why they are saying it, but it becomes something that they think they desire without actually desiring it.

I'm not an American, but I have happily lived in the States for more than 30 years now. As much as I love my American friends and the unique culture here, a large chunk of my heart still belongs to Europe. So I travel back to the "old country" any chance I get for the history, the culture, the food and the the sheer joy of exploring new places and meeting interesting people.

I would love to see other parts of the world too some day, but wonderful old Europe keeps calling me back. History is probably my greatest passion so I guess it's just in my blood.

Expensive? Yes, but another advantage of traveling is widening one's horizons and cultivating empathy for people outside of the USA. In today's complicated world this is especially important.

I don't think that all of Europe is wonderful and old.

I also don't think that Europeans are more open-minded than Americans.
It's a different mentality and that doesn't mean that it's better or preferable.

I don't agree that Europeans aren't materialistic.
I have many friends who live here (Germany, France for example) who have told me that they wished taxes could be lower so they can BUY more things for themselves instead of pay it social security and the government. They want more, and they would buy more if they could keep more of their money.

I think it's silly to like to listen to a foreign language without speaking it.

And I definitely don't agree that Europe has better food.

You just can't compare.


This is based on my observations living here in Europe.

<I don't think that all of Europe is wonderful and old.>
Agreed...Some of it is wonderful without being old, some of it is old without being wonderful, some of it is both, some of it is neither.

<I also don't think that Europeans are more open-minded than Americans.>
I don't think I said that and certainly didn't mean to imply it. The point was that if someone is not open-minded enough to change their own ways in order to experience something they believe that they want to experience, then they are probably not open-minded enough to immerse themselves in another culture. That's from any culture to another...Regardless of whether it's an American visiting Europe, an Spaniard visiting America, or a Pakistanian visiting Brazil.

<It's a different mentality and that doesn't mean that it's better or preferable.>
That's one reason to travel - to learn that neither is better. However, as for preference, each person is allowed his/her preference. I may not think that driving on the left vs. right sides of the road have any advantage either way, but my preference is to drive on the right.

<I don't agree that Europeans aren't materialistic.>
I don't think that by saying Americans are materialistic that I also said Europeans are not. However, my limited observations are that Europeans don't tend to buy as much "stuff" to fill their homes as Americans.

<I think it's silly to like to listen to a foreign language without speaking it.>
To each his own. However, it seems impossible to learn the language without listening to it first. Perhaps it's the learning process that interests some...or even the sound of the language for others. I'm not sure why the "romance" languages would be called such unless they sounded romantic.

good points, mrkindallas.

It is just a happy coincidence that the romance languages have a name that sounds like love. The term "romance language" derives from the vulgar Latin word "romanice", meaning to speak in the Roman vernacular, as opposed to in Latin or in a barbarian language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages

One thing I like about going to Europe is seeing the differences in urban infrastructure compared to cities at home- things like urban planning, use of space, public transportation, public maintenance, signage, traffic control.

I did not read all posts, so maybe this was covered.

There is also a snob appeal to Americans. At the top of that list is Paris, with southern France next, followed by Tuscany. That attracts those who want to appear sophisticated.

The Anglophiles are those who want to appear more intllectual as though they some of the history and the cultural that they created and stole will rub off on them.

Then there are those who specialize in Italy, other than Tuscany. They are all about the food, the culture, and the history but do not want to appear as haughty as the Francophiles.

After that it breaks down to indiviudal interests, ancestory, and pursuits where the snobbery becomes telling others what they are missing in X country.

For me,as a 60 year old woman, besides all of the things mentioned by previous posters, history, food,etc. the idea that I can go thousands of miles from my home, rent a car, drive in a country that I don't speak the language, have wonderful adventures and make my way safely back home, means I am now a GROWN UP!
It's incredible how many women I meet who would never in a million years consider doing this so, I suppose, there is a bit of bragging rights that I secretly enjoy.

Aduchamp - Why all the bitterness toward citizens of the US? Granted, there likely is an element of snobbery in the motives of some Americans travelling in Europe, but it's a minority.

What most have said here is that it boils down to "I have fun when I go to Europe". I can also have fun by going to a ballgame, having dinner with friends, watching a movie, and reading a good book ... but exploring a ruined 1,000 year-old castle in the Italian or French or English countryside is a special brand of fun.

Aduchamp - my mom was one of those "sniff. We went to France" kind of people only she's a Tennessee hillbilly who grew up to be an Elks Club queen and therefore was sophisticated.
There's nothing like going to Europe to make me feel like a Tennessee hillbilly. All the stuff I get away with wearing in Portland (Dansko's, jeans, gore-tex) just doesn't fly over there.

When I was in Paestum 15 years ago I saw a piece of a roman road that was carved deep with cart wheels and I wanted to lay down on the stones and soak up the hum of all that history. I would have been one of those peasants dragging a donkey into town to set up at a stall before the crack of dawn or hauling jugs of someone's smelly refuse down to the river.
That's why I love going to Europe. That and the serrano ham, the Banon cheese wrapped in it's little leaf, and the fabulous olive oil that the woman says, "Oh, some farmer brings it in."

30 years ago, before DH and I started traveling, we saw something about Venice (sinking) on TV and I vividly remember saying that it was a place I'd love to see before I died. No snobbery involved, Aduchamp1, just curiosity about a place so beautiful and so different than any I'd encountered before.

A friend subsequently hooked us up with a really inexpensive trip to Greece. We loved it. We got a further view of people and places outside of our "orbit".

We also saw many people in their 70s (and older) who were having trouble getting on and off the bus, who couldn't walk up to the Acropolis. We agreed to not wait until we had enough money and time to see Venice but would try to travel while we were young enough to withstand travel's downsides.

When we finally got to Italy, it truly "stabbed us in the heart". We keep going back. It beckons us. We sigh when someone says the word 'Italy'.

Oh, after DH and I attended a GTG in DC this summer, he said "I expected this to be a group of people trying to out do each other about how many trips they'd taken. Instead, I met some very interesting and cultured folks and had a great time."

So phillyboy, travel is in the genes and in the heart! Yeah, the wallet also. Maybe those of us bitten by the travel bug are broadminded to begin with, but I think one is broadened by learning about other cultures first hand.

Hi Aduchamp1; To characterize a quote you made on another post, 'why are you so angry?' Dick

I am not angry at all. They are observations. Simply because they are not complimentary to some, that does not make me angry.

I have met many Francophiles and Anglophiles to note these people were not isolated behaviors.

A good thread to get everybodys attention.
If someone has info on Agra /India please visit the thread I opened on the Asia board.

And regardig different cultures. I've no idea why anybody thinks "European" or "American culture" are different in any way. They have the same culture and its name's "filty rich"

logos999, interesting comment. To speed up anyone looking for your Agra thread: it's at:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia/in-agra-right-now-whats-next.cfm

The Three B's:

Beer, Bratwurst, and Boobs

Am I the only one that thinks that a few posters are splitting hairs about the food and history thing? Agree to disagree AND lets all look forward to our next trip across the pond...enuf said

AMSTERDAM!

I love traveling in Europe because the pace of life is much more CIVILIZED. None of this eating lunch at one's desk and being terrified of having a glass of wine in the middle of the day. Europeans know how to LIVE, and I get there as often as I can -- for work and for pleasure -- to remember that.

Maureen
www.urbantravelgirl.com

To those who understand, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't, no explanation will suffice.

15 days till wheels-up, baby. I'm feeling it.

None of this eating lunch at one's desk and being terrified of having a glass of wine in the middle of the day. Europeans know how to LIVE, and I get there as often as I can -- for work and for pleasure -- to remember that.

And this is the mythology of Europe that some of us rebel against. This isn't true. It might seem that way on holiday, or in certain parts of Europe, but it isn't broadly true.

For example, virtually all Danish companies serve lunch on site. You get 30 minutes. No wine is served. Lunch at a typical American company, can be downright lazy compared to this. My company's Dutch office does the same. In our Swiss office, lunch is typically quick and hours are long.

Again, don't conflate France and Italy with "Europe". Even in France and Italy, let's not kid ourselves. It isn't a complete free-for-all, either. When I visit my company's affiliate in Italy, I am among the first out the door when I leave before 7 pm.

And, let's be clear, I chafe just as much when colleagues in the US start in on the "Europeans all leave at 5". And I chafe for exactly the same reasons, because it is such a naive point of view.

The grass is always greener...

Neither view is right or wrong. You will find examples for any kind of statement.

The tourist may be a bit biased by an "everything is wonderful and so much better" attitude, e.g. the "urban life" with business people having a good lunch at nice restaurants, not knowing that at the edge of town there are business parks where people get their lunch at the companys' cafeterias.

Ex-Pats are usually more in defense of their home country saying that not everything is THAT great and for every advantage you usually have one disadvantage.

I work for a pan-European company based in Munich. I usually work from 9 to 6. I hardly ever eat at my desk, but at the company's canteen/restaurant. The latter because we are based in some godforsaken business park where there are no real restaurants to go to. But you can get beer at the canteen for lunch. What does that prove? Nothing.

There is no "European way of living". It's a diverse continent, with diverse lifestyles, values, and traditions. It's as nuts to compare "Europe" with the USA, as to compare France with the Americas.
If someone said that the USA was so much more interesting than Europe because of the huge deserts and great beaches, what would you say if you lived in Iowa?

I've been to Cahokia a number of times (grew up in StL too).

Anyway, on the topic. I enjoyed our trips to Europe because they were different enough from home to be interesting on a cultural level, while still being very low challenge. Well, western Europe anyway. A little wine or beer, a little food of the local style, a pretty place to sit and soak it in. Easy transport, easy logistics, just all around relaxing. I haven't been to France or Italy but can't imagine that most people who visit do so because they want to enhance their image.

Overall, to me all travel is just about enjoying *something*, not necessarily the same thing in every single place. Right now, I'm kind of into other places than Europe for leisure travel, because I'm digging on the more exotic lately (last trips were other continents) but I'll always look forward to going back to Europe. Tops of the Euro wish list: Amsterdam and the Mosel valley.

"Historic" means someone was keeping a record. No one was. Thus, "pre-historic". Brilliant how that works, isn't it?

Only a wannabee Brit...

Ex-Pats are usually more in defense of their home country saying that not everything is THAT great and for every advantage you usually have one disadvantage.

I think this is the case simply because ex-pats actually have some point of comparison. You don't get this perspective from visiting. When you actually separate the thrill of the vacation from the thrill of being in place x, you become a bit more objective.

And I would remember that most ex-pats live a pretty sheltered life. If an ex-pat is willing to tell you that place x isn't all it is cracked up to be, even with all of the advantages that they have, then I think that says something.

History! Food Wine Cafes Adventure! Adventure!Adventure!

<If an ex-pat is willing to tell you that place x isn't all it is cracked up to be, even with all of the advantages that they have, then I think that says something.>

I think that, while this is true, perspective needs to be kept in mind. Does it really matter whether someone from the USA perceives their favorite vacation location to have a more ideal lifestyle? They are there for vacation - not moving in. I think that most people who travel understand that they are just scratching the surface of a location and its culture. The things that they perceive about a place may not be entirely true, but to me, it's your vacation - it's your fantasy - it's your escape from your reality. Some people find it easier to mentally escape in Paris than they do in New York.

And I don't understand why this needs to be a comparison between the two. Asking why someone enjoys traveling to Europe and getting responses like "food, history, culture" doesn't necessarily mean that we (people who enjoy traveling to Europe) think that Europe has the best of these available. It could be that the enjoyment comes from the unique combination of those things along with ambiance of a particular location. It doesn't mean that Amsterdam is any better than San Francisco, but they are different and the experience that one has in Amsterdam is not likely to be exactly like the one in San Francisco. Just because one is more enjoyable to a person than the other doesn't mean that the place is better than any other place.

We would all enjoy happier lives if we could get rid of the "better than" way of thinking.

In high school (early 70s), our history class was a Western Civilization course that focused mostly on the history of Europe. Our language class choices were French, Spanish or Latin. Those were definitely Eurocentric days.

In our house, we watched old (often corny) movies like "Charade," "Three Coins in a Fountain," "Gidget Goes to Rome", "It Started in Naples", etc. Moved on later to "First Churchills (TV)," "Jule and Jim," "Cinema Paradiso" and others.

So I grew up with a very romantic notion of Europe; but, really, after 5 trips, Europe still has not disappointed me.

As for the snob factor...I live in a University town. My sons' friends have trekked in Nepal, taken semesters in Ghana, accompanied parents' on sabbatical in Australia, and volunteered in Honduras (to name a few places). I don't think pleasant jaunts to Europe cut it on the impresso-meter anymore.

"None of this eating lunch at one's desk and being terrified of having a glass of wine in the middle of the day."

That's a joke, right? I've worked through lunch many, many times. Colleagues and I have stayed at the office long past dinner time as well if we have to finish a project and send it to co-workers in the U.S. or Asia.

I'm not complaining. I get paid very well with great benefits for what I do. But I also earn my salary.

I was never "terrified" of having a glass of wine at lunch in the U.S. although I seldom did it. I don't drink wine at lunch here in Switzerland, either, unless it's a special occasion. And there are companies in Europe that have very strict no alcohol at work rules.

"I'm curious, why do others prefer Europe?" (OP)

I don't. It would be like comparing lobster to chocolate cake. I can't imagine life without any of Europe, the US, or home.

I have never met anyone who held the stereotypes mentioned. But if I did, I wouldn't rely on travel to dispel them. Independent thought does not require a plane ticket.

Several of my close friends are European expats. More to the point, two of them were born in, and grew up in, eastern European countries (former East Germany and former Czechoslovakia, respectively) during a particularly dark time in those countries' histories. Their anecdotes ensure that I don't overly romanticize the place, particularly the history. (The notion that the former East Germany necessarily had good food, by virtue of being in Europe, reduces K to near tears of laughter.) In short, geography and history aren't enough - the political-economic system must also not be dysfunctional, if culture is to truly 'work' well.

On the other hand, my friends' clear affection for their home countries ensures I don't get an excessively dark view, either: even in the bad times; even for ordinary people, and not tourists, there were good times.

And that is true for everywhere else, too. In short, to generalize anywhere, either positively or negatively, is unwise. I think that is what Passerine and travelgourmet are trying to say. Enjoy Europe, but remember that vacations - perhaps quite properly - show a place at its best.