Why is Turkey considered Europe, not Middle East?
Apr 1st, 2004, 04:14 PM
#1
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Why is Turkey considered Europe, not Middle East?
Lebanon, Syria, Iraq are not considered to be in Europe, so why is Turkey? Mentally, I think of anything south/east of the bosporus (or whatever the straits are between the Black & Meditteranean Seas) to be not Europe. So there must be some geographic rule in play here. What is it?
Apr 1st, 2004, 04:34 PM
#2
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Well, it's largest city is in Europe, and it's applying for EU membership. So, might as well considered it European...
Russia isn't even applying for EU membership, but most do consider it a "European" country...
Russia isn't even applying for EU membership, but most do consider it a "European" country...
Apr 1st, 2004, 04:38 PM
#3
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It's more than Geography.
What is now Turkey was the Eastern Roman Empire for a very long time. The area was also heavily settled with Greek colonies, and maintained deep cultural and trade ties with the Western Mediterranian.
What is now Turkey was the Eastern Roman Empire for a very long time. The area was also heavily settled with Greek colonies, and maintained deep cultural and trade ties with the Western Mediterranian.
Apr 1st, 2004, 04:38 PM
#4
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Istanbul is in the far western part of Turkey. It separated by a waterway called "The Golden Horn". There is a European side to the city and an Asian side and the Golden Horn is the dividing line at that point. But I believe that everything east of the Bosphorus in Turkey is considered to be in Asia and that is the great majority of the country's land area.
Apr 1st, 2004, 04:46 PM
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The Line between East and west is the Bosphorus which splits the two parts of Istanbul. The only part of Turkey that is in "Europe" is that part of the city on the west side of the Bosphorus.
Apr 1st, 2004, 05:43 PM
#6
Because part of the country is in Europe, like rkkwan said.
Sorry, but I have to post the following:
Turkey is partly in Europe and it is partly in Asia. Istanbul is a Turkish city in Europe. There is a body of water in Istanbul called the Golden Horn. The European part of Turkey is separated from Asia by three bodies of water: the Bosporus Strait, the Dardanelles (strait?), and the Sea of Marmara. The city of Istanbul sits on the western, European, side of the Bosporus. The Golden Horn flows into the Bosporus. The European region of Turkey covers an area that is much larger than the city of Istanbul.
Apr 1st, 2004, 10:27 PM
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Well, you're wrong.
The western side of Turkey, i.e. Western Istanbul is in Europe, and everything across the Bosphorus is Asia. Hence the fact the Bosphorus bridge is the only bridge to span two continents.
Rules of geography are like rules of English, non-existent.
The western side of Turkey, i.e. Western Istanbul is in Europe, and everything across the Bosphorus is Asia. Hence the fact the Bosphorus bridge is the only bridge to span two continents.
Rules of geography are like rules of English, non-existent.
Apr 1st, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Any geographical principle about where Asia stops and Europe starts is arbitrary, and almost certainly has no relationship with how people live. "Europe"'s two largest countries are both in Europe and Asia.
So some people might consider Turkey part of Europe, and some might not. There's no right and wrong in this.
But Turkey is already locked into Europe in ways that don't apply to Lebanon and Syria. Apart from having a more or less functioning democracy (certainly a lot more functioning than, say, Belarus or Moldova), here are some others:
- it's in NATO (unlike the EU's many freeloaders on Europe's security system)
- its football clubs compete in all the European championships (and that's the one that really matters)
- it's in a Customs Union with the EU and most of Central Europe (clothes made in Turkish factories move into the UK and Germany on Turkish-driven lorries with infinitely less documentation, delay, tax or quota than Mexican clothes get into the US in the weird parody of a free trade area NAFTA operates)
- it competes in the Eurovision Song Contest
- it houses the spiritual centre of a major European religion (Greek Orthodoxy)
- Northern Europeans holiday there in exactly the same way as they holiday in the Balearics or Cyprus: Club Meds, millions of charter flights from East Midlands, Humberside and other airports famous only in their own county, binge boozing by young Brits and all the other accoutrements of a sophisticated tourist industry
- It has a decent wine and spirits industry, and booze is effortlessly available
- it housed the administrative capital of much of modern Europe for over a thousand years. Indeed many Europeans were governed from Constantinople until well into the 20th century
Culturally, much of Turkey feels more European than most of Eastern (as opposed to Central) Europe. And the arguments for admitting it into the EU are a lot stronger (though personally I disagree with them) than they are for Russia and Belarus. And infinitely stronger than for Tunisia or Lebanon.
So some people might consider Turkey part of Europe, and some might not. There's no right and wrong in this.
But Turkey is already locked into Europe in ways that don't apply to Lebanon and Syria. Apart from having a more or less functioning democracy (certainly a lot more functioning than, say, Belarus or Moldova), here are some others:
- it's in NATO (unlike the EU's many freeloaders on Europe's security system)
- its football clubs compete in all the European championships (and that's the one that really matters)
- it's in a Customs Union with the EU and most of Central Europe (clothes made in Turkish factories move into the UK and Germany on Turkish-driven lorries with infinitely less documentation, delay, tax or quota than Mexican clothes get into the US in the weird parody of a free trade area NAFTA operates)
- it competes in the Eurovision Song Contest
- it houses the spiritual centre of a major European religion (Greek Orthodoxy)
- Northern Europeans holiday there in exactly the same way as they holiday in the Balearics or Cyprus: Club Meds, millions of charter flights from East Midlands, Humberside and other airports famous only in their own county, binge boozing by young Brits and all the other accoutrements of a sophisticated tourist industry
- It has a decent wine and spirits industry, and booze is effortlessly available
- it housed the administrative capital of much of modern Europe for over a thousand years. Indeed many Europeans were governed from Constantinople until well into the 20th century
Culturally, much of Turkey feels more European than most of Eastern (as opposed to Central) Europe. And the arguments for admitting it into the EU are a lot stronger (though personally I disagree with them) than they are for Russia and Belarus. And infinitely stronger than for Tunisia or Lebanon.
Apr 2nd, 2004, 12:06 AM
#12
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Absolutely. That's why there are no hard and fast rules.
Almost all of the Med has been intimately linked with almost all the res, and with its European hinterland, throughout recorded history.
Some bits have, for one reason or another, locked themselves away from the rest - as Algeria, Libya and Syria have. Other bits outside mainland Europe have locked themselves away a great deal less - like Cyprus, Turkey, or Israel.
And Turkey has locked itself into Europe far more than anywhere else. Israel's not in NATO, you can't really drive to it effortlessly from the rest of Europe, it does very little trade with Europe (the UK imports more from Israel in many categories than the rest of Europe put together, as Israel looks far more to the US), and you don't see Israeli trucks all over Europe's motorways.
There's no black and white in all this. Any more than in whether Pakistan is Central Asian or a South Asian or Mexico is in North America or Central America.
Almost all of the Med has been intimately linked with almost all the res, and with its European hinterland, throughout recorded history.
Some bits have, for one reason or another, locked themselves away from the rest - as Algeria, Libya and Syria have. Other bits outside mainland Europe have locked themselves away a great deal less - like Cyprus, Turkey, or Israel.
And Turkey has locked itself into Europe far more than anywhere else. Israel's not in NATO, you can't really drive to it effortlessly from the rest of Europe, it does very little trade with Europe (the UK imports more from Israel in many categories than the rest of Europe put together, as Israel looks far more to the US), and you don't see Israeli trucks all over Europe's motorways.
There's no black and white in all this. Any more than in whether Pakistan is Central Asian or a South Asian or Mexico is in North America or Central America.
Apr 2nd, 2004, 04:13 AM
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Russia was in The Eurovision SOng Contest as well.....with thse two schreeching lesbian (not really) twits last year.
I wonder how big we will get in the EU as it seems the whole point of having it will be dininished it everyone joins.
I wonder how big we will get in the EU as it seems the whole point of having it will be dininished it everyone joins.
Apr 2nd, 2004, 06:18 AM
#15
Original Poster
Thank you all for your insights. So, to boil it down, Istanbul/Constantinople/? was 1500 years ago the far eastern end of the Roman Empire, and as such considered European (to the extent that concept existed then). So Istanbul was pretty much synonomous with the concept of "Turkey". And as Istanbul expanded its influence eastward (when does the Ottoman Empire start up?) the rural areas governed or influenced by it were similarly deemed European?
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:47 PM
#16
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I suggest you read "A traveler's history of Turkey" by Richard Stoneman. Istanbul was the center of Christianity for more than 1,000 years. If it wasn't for the Bizantine empire (aka Eastern Roman Empire) the Greeks, Russians, Germans, Bulgars, Romanians and other Eastern europeans would have not converted to Christianity and it is more than likely that more than half on Europe would be Muslim today !!
