It's common procedure to leave a passport or driver's license when you pick up rental equipment most places, not just Russia. Even when you rent an audio guide at a museum. It insures they get their equipment back.

A rental car is much more valuable than a wheelchair. I have never been asked to leave valuable personal property as a deposit for a rental car.

I knew why the officials at the Hermitage wanted some kind of security, but my questions was "What would you have done?"
I did not equate the value of a passport with that of a 3nd class wheel chair.

I would have left my driver's license, money, or even my watch as collateral. But being asked to leave my passport touched off alarm bells.

Just where the heck did those people think I would go with a wheelchair?

Lots of museums ask for a passport or drivers license when you rent audioguides, so i dont think its that strange...

I carry a copy of my passport in case I need it to rent an audio. I would have given the passport. Did you think you wouldn't get it back? It would have been inappropriate for a museum official to take money from you and what the heck would they do with a watch.

The museum person was just doing her/his job. Why should they jeopardise their job because you don't want to follow the rules or think the rules are strange?

Don't go to Italy - you'll freak when the hotel clerk wants your passport before you get your room key.

I would have given the passport. Though I did get a lecture once from Canadian passport officials for even giving my passport number to a tour agency prior to a trip to Peru. They really did not like that.

So you would turn over the most valuable document in your possession to the Russians? I rented an audio guide in Vienna at Schöbrunn Palace and was not asked to surrender a document as valuable as a passport.

Hotels in Spain also have to register your passport with the police . If they are very busy you can ask them to make a copy and give your passport back to avoid any of you forgetting to retrieve it later.

I would have left my ID, be it passport or ID card of residency in Spain.

I certainly would not be worried they do anything incorrect with it.

I guess I dont see the problem, they were doing their job, you gave them your passport, you got to enjoy the museum and you got your passport back no problem (I assume?) Sounds like happy days to me!

You may not like the policy, but I think it is common in Europe. Like adrienne says, in Italy the desk clerk takes your passport to register you with the police as a matter of law. If they are busy sometimes they keep it for hours, or overnight. I've always had it returned.

>>>A rental car is much more valuable than a wheelchair. I have never been asked to leave valuable personal property as a deposit for a rental car. <<<

What does a rental car have to do with anything? A rental car already has your credit card to insure they get their money if you steal their car.

It's common to be expected to leave your passport even for a cheap audio guide just as it's common to hand your passport over to hotels when you check in (usually given back the next morning) or give to train personnel on overnight trains.

Agree, when we took the overnight train from Paris to Venice the train conductor took our passports and kept them all night and gave them back just before we got to Venice

There are many countries where you have to submit your passport to the hotel staff when checking in. I also just returned from Italy, where that is the law. Also, there are many places where a passport is required to rent equipment.

Personally, I would not have had a problem with their request.

Al_Godon, sorry about your situation, but did you enjoy the HERMITAGE itself? I have never been but hear that it is spectacular.

Check the website of your national authority or of the department which issued the passport.

As you are not the owner but only the bearer of that passport, you usually don't have the liberty to surrender that document which is not your property to Russian museum employees, Italian concierges or to anyone else at your own discretion. At least not in theory, or if you wish to stick to the law 100pct.

If that means that you cannot rent a wheelchair or encounter other inconviniences, well, that is probably your decision how you weigh your responsibilities against what you plan to do.

While it is common procedure that hotels in many countries must take down your personal data for registration purposes, even in Italy it can be done by making a photocopy at check-in (as there is hardly one hotel reception without a printer/scanner/copy machine) or writing it down.
That is at least what I tell them to do, and do not wait until next day or hours later. After all, it is not such a challenging task.

Cowboy I agree with making the copy at hotels, but on a train that was not an option! It is give up the passport or get off the train hahaha!

In Italy I believe you have to leave your passport with the staff at internet cafes due to their terrorism laws.

True enough that it is always your choice if you are not comfortable with it - but unfortunately that my mean missing out on stuff.

I hope you enjoyed Russia - its somewhere that is on my bucket list!

While a hotel may accept a copy (they just need to record your info), rental desks won't as they want to hold something that will assure you return the item.

No, I would not hand over a legal document to a jumped up museum puppy. Though I might have used honey rather than vinegar.

My husband had the same experience; same place, same requirement. He handed the passport over to the museum. He got a wheelchair. The museum was so horrendously innaccesible (Circa 2005) that he still did not see a lot. He returned the chair, got his passport. Total dissapointment.

Bottom line, I would had say to the group "tell me where and when to meet up with you" and then head out at your own pace. A no brainer.

You seem kind of fixated on the idea that it was "the Russians" who were after your passport, not just a matter of museum policy (and I agree, I've had to leave similar collateral for audioguides in various parts of Europe before). I once had a multi-entry working visa for Russia, and in that case you really do have to entrust your passport to "the Russians" for an extended period of time (couple of weeks, if I remember rightly). You might not like doing so, but it's probably not part of some infernal government scheme.

"A no brainer."

If it is a no brainer, why didn't your husband do it?

Cowboy 1968 - you are in left field without a mitt.

In the past hotels in many european countries were required to register all guests with police and they needed your passport to do it. You handed it over and got it back later or the next day. Some countries - including Italy - AND Russia - still require this. If you don;t hand it over you won;t get a room - and are not registered with the police and so are ILLEGAL.

And agree - that for countries requiring visa you typically have to SEND the your pasaport to have the visa entered. When I went to Russia we had to do this - and so far -the first time was almost 20 years ago - no one else had turned up claiming to be me.

I would have given them the passport and picked it up when leaving. I think the OP was very nervous unnecessarily. Museum officials are not thieves - and if they really wanted a US passport - they could simply buy one. (The OP seems to be caught in a 1980s cold war time warp.)

A "no brain" indeed-- my husband did EXACTLY that; he went on at his own pace, which included going at his own pace still aided by a wheelchair. Read and Comprehension is so underated....

Excuse me. Your husband's choice miust have seemed a no brainer as well. Yet it ended in total disappointment (your words).

The OP would have been without his companions, without the guide, walking uncomfortably and perhaps unable to get to parts of the museum he wanted to see. An option - yes. A no brainer - hardly.

Why such an insulting tone?

I pack an outdated passport and/or driver's license for renting audioguides at any museum. I think I got that tip from Wendy Perrin ages ago and it works.

For hotels, I usually give them my real one. Sometimes they lose it! Daughter had to knock on random doors at 4 a.m. because desk clerk enclosed her in another person's passport and she had a 5:30 a.m. flight to catch. Happens.

nytraveler,
I think you mix up things.
It is irrelevant what someone wants to do with your passport somewhere. Or if you can or can't rent a hotel room in Russia if you do or don't.

I was merely stating the restrictions that your own government (maybe/probably) imposes on you with regard to what you are allowed to do with "your" passport.

It is quite obvious that it is permissable to surrender your passport to foreign authorities so you can obtain a visa or to give it to an immigration officer when you cross a border.
If your privileges also include to surrender it to a bike rental employee in Amsterdam or to a concierge in Moscow will be up for you to investigate if it interests you.

It is not a matter of having an opinion or "proving" it with what happened some time somewhere but knowing the laws of your country.

Since you were THERE and needed the wheelchair I am certain the Secretary of State would have told you to go ahead and "surrender" it. Sometimes this "regulation" thing gets to be just a little TOO anal.

Interesting. I have never had to give my passport to rent an audioguide in all my years of traveling. I have been asked to show it when checking into hotels but always got it right back and the last few years, they didn't even want to see it. The only place I ever had to leave it was at the Embassy in Paris. It was given back to me when I left.

So what happens if you leave your passport with the hotel, go to a museum and want an audioguide? They will only give you the guide if you leave your passport with them but it's back at the hotel? I guess you don't get the guide?

<<<So you would turn over the most valuable document in your possession to the Russians? >>>

In Russia, yes I would hand it over to Russians.

They want something that they can
- easily identify as yours (not someone else returning your wheelchair and walking off with your watch or other collateral)
- has obvious value (a drivers license may be a fake or easily replaced if you decide to "abscond" with their wheelchair).
- is likely to be remembered (it's easy to forget about a drivers license, a bit harder for a passport because we're all so primed to freak out about keeping the passport clutched close).


I've been asked for a photo ID many times for an audioguide, though they were usually happy with a license.

>>>I was merely stating the restrictions that your own government (maybe/probably) imposes on you with regard to what you are allowed to do with "your" passport.<<<

Do you have a link for that law?

Hey AG,

> I have never been asked to leave valuable personal property as a deposit for a rental car. <

What do you call your Credit card information, chopped liver?

I have this habit of reading warning labels and Important Information leaflets that come with almost everything these days, the same ones that most people toss in the garbage.

Anyone who crosses the US-Canada border using Nexus lanes knows all the rules and regulations regarding your Nexus card, which Lord forbid, you could lose, or misuse, or potentially end up never allowed to enter the US again.

All this fear-mongering makes me feel that giving my passport to some-one is like surrendering my purse, illogical I know, but it's very personal somehow.

Until my husband rips it out of my hand and says, Give the man the passport for God's sake!

>>>I was merely stating the restrictions that your own government (maybe/probably) imposes on you with regard to what you are allowed to do with "your" passport.<<<

Do you have a link for that law?

Clearly, I have too much time on my hands. But this intrigued me, and for my sins, I'm a librarian, so I looked around a bit. I doubt that there's an actual law on the books (couldn't find anything with a quick look on the usa.gov website) saying that you can't relinquish your passport to anyone for any length of time, otherwise it would be technically illegal to send off your passport for visas etc. However, it is true that the passport is the property of your government.

It took me a wee while to find anything that wasn't just forums like this one without sources or inflammatory sites trying to sell you a second passport. But eventually I found an article from the Annual Survey of International and Comparative Law, http://bit.ly/QiApiC which focuses on the (il)legality of the US government impounding the passports of foreign nationals.

It doesn't have anything to say specifically on whether you can hand your passport to a hotel clerk, but it does spell out:

A passport is the property of the issuing government. A State’s property right in its passport flows directly from its sovereign right to determine its own citizens and the criteria for becoming one under domestic law.

The competency of a State to oversee citizenship has
been balanced with its ability to exercise competence in matters such as territory and jurisdiction.

Therefore, the State issuing the passport has the right to demand its return from a foreign government taking custody of the document since the actions of one State should not interfere with, or encroach upon, the personal jurisdiction of another State.

So you can indeed kick up a fuss if Putin takes your passport, but yeah, probably okay with the hotel or museum clerk holding on to it for a bit.

Oh and here it is from the horse's mouth (USCIS)

http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/FR/HTML/FR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-123038/0-0-0-139104/0-0-0-142786.html#0-0-0-3987

Federal Register Publications (CIS, ICE, CBP) \ Federal Register Publications (CIS, ICE, CBP) - 2007 \ FEDERAL REGISTER FINAL REGULATIONS - 2007 \ Passports [72 FR 64930] [FR 64-07]

§ 51.7 Passport property of the U.S. Government.


(a) A passport at all times remains the property of the United States and must be returned to the U.S. Government upon demand.

Again, a quick scan of the text doesn't say anything about what you can do with your passport in the interim when the US govt isn't demanding it from you.

And now I'm going to stop looking up stuff about passports. bsessive

Here's a funny story regarding audio guides and IDs: When we were in Cuzco, I visited the cathedral on my own. Unfortunately, my husband had my passport and driver's license, so I had no ID to hand over for the audio guide. With the language barrier it was hard to discuss the problem, but finally the young woman pointed to my hat. We both laughed as I handed her my hat, and she gave me the audio guide. Got the hat back later on with no problem.

This is a totally normal requirement - many museums will require one leave either a passport, drivers license w/ photo, or credit card to hold as security for audio guides or wheelchairs.

I've been asked for one or another of them in London, Paris, Munich, St Petersburg, Amsterdam and other places - multiple times.

It may be that you haven't traveled overseas that much (or only on cruises) so it seemed 'scary'. Understandable. But absolutely nothing to worry about. A copy would not work since one could just walk off and leave it w/ no cares. They want something of value from you so they know they'll get the wheelchair back.

There is a simple trick to deal with such situations: Just see the other side.

The museum's management has probably lost a wheelchair and they have learnt that they must take a pledge. What kind of pledge?

- Money? No, no tourist has $2,000 in his pocket.

- A credit card? No, it might be stolen or it might be reported as stolen after the wheelchair is gone.

- Driver's license? Same as with the credit card.

- The passport! Any tourist badly needs his passport, so it makes a perfect pledge.

Some boss has written down a rule that a wheelchair is given only if the passport is taken.

Now imagine the little clerk on the museum floor. He has to obey the rule. Period. Otherwise he will lose his job AND have to pay four or five monthly salaries for the lost wheelchair.

You might now understand the other side's behaviour. And I agree it has nothing to do with Russia.

@traveller1959 Absolutely! Yes, you will get a certain percentage of people going on some sort of power trip in any profession, but most of the time they're just trying to do their job. As mentioned, I'm a librarian, and back when I was a library assistant while at university I'd get people arguing and arguing about paying fines etc. and I literally couldn't help them even if I wanted to, because they don't give the login to wipe fines to lowly student assistants. And even if I did, I'm going to be much more willing to work something out with someone who treats me like a human being rather than a "jumped up museum puppy".

It would be nice if the cruise ship company knew all this information, and publicized requirements for the on-shore excursions they sell to their passengers. You should have known ahead of time what the requirement was -- it would then have been a bit less of a shock to you when it happened. I seriously doubt that you are the first person this has happened to on that particular cruise, and I expect there will be more. I hold them more responsible for the discomfort you experienced than the Hermitage Museum.

Excellent point, uhoh.

Cowboy -

I'm afraid you can;t read. Yes, the passport is the poperty of the US government - which means that other governments can;t seize it and prevent the tourist from using it for legitimate purposes. That doesn't mean the tourist can;t take it out of the country (why have one?), the immigration official can't require that you hand it to them (how would you get into any country?) or that others can't request it's use for other purposes (how would you get a visa without handing it over? as in registering with the police in which that is the law?). Having a US passport doesn;t make you immune from the regulations of other countries. Nor does it prevent the tourist from using it as they see fit.

The museum was not proposing to keep the OP's passport - just to use it as security. The OP had the option of handing it over or not. The museum wasn;t trying to do anything illegal.

And, frankly I would much rather hand over my passport or license as security in a museum than I would hand over my credit card.

I feel so much better since you did the research, gwan.
My husband sends his thanks.

nytraveler,
I'm afraid you try to make a point where there is none.
Or where everything had been found out by gwan already.

I was merely suggesting that your Government could restrict what you can do with the passport. "COULD" not "DOES".
You may be surprised that other jurisdictions do restrict the use of passports. For example, I should not give away my passport for other than government use or to official personnel. This excludes renting a wheelchair or an audio guide in a museum. But I CAN mail it to an embassy to obtain a visa. Or for whatever else you mentioned as examples. Whether me or others stick to this is another thing.

Yet, what you been beating to death as a "legal requirement" in Italy is not one.
In Italy, as in Germany, Spain, and dozens other countries in Europe the exact same law exists, i.e. hotels and such have to register the guests with local or central authorities.
So they have to take down the data from your passport, or check it against what you wrote in your registration form. It does not mean that a concierge in Padua must sit on your passport for 12 hours.

But, as PPs have found out, there exist no restrictions according to US legislation.
So you are free to do what had been discussed in OP or whatever you want.

So - I'm right and you're wrong and you're still mad about it???

Sounds like the backseat of the station wagon "Mom, s/he's touching me" " Mom, s/he's looking at me"? We need to act like grown ups here...

I think al_godon lost interest a long time ago. He just wanted a listening ear for his frustration at being treated in an undignified manner.
I think we have all felt that from time to time....

Seems like a lot of fuss over nothing of significance. In many countries, a passport is used in daily life and it is very common to have to use it as security. If the OP wanted a wheelchair, and the museum wanted it back, their only assurance of getting it back is to ask for the only item you have that you HAVE to come back for because you can't leave the country without it.
There is nothing sinister or illegal about requesting a passport for security. It is probably safer in the hands of the Hermitage than in a purse or pocket and it has no value to anyone except the person it is issued to.
I am American living in Russia for the last 9 years and have had passport security requests here and in other countries, but a few placed wanted a cell phone instead. A cell phone is more valuable to the owner than a passport unless the owner is outside of their home country.

I would like to point out that those of us who were fighting cold war in the 1959 - 1965 time period, i.e. pre Gorbachov, have a view of Russians that is different from people today who never heard of Francis Gary Powers.

For many years, some museum officials were also member of the NKVD, once a passport was out of your control, it was probably copied and used to make a phony copy.

If you were not a member of a military intelligence organization or a crew member on an USAF flight whose mission was to stir up the Russian radar, I can see why you would not have the same memories as a person who worked for one of the US Intelligence agencies.

I am not saying Al was right or wrong. But if he has Cold War Memories like I do, I can see why he was reluctant.
Turn the tables a bit. What is wrong with a cash deposit or ones watch? One hundred dollars in US green would be a pretty good deposit on a beatup wheel chair.
Just how the heck is a semi cripple, as Al says he was, going to steal a wheel chair, get it out of the building, load it on the bus under the eyes of the tour guide, and get it back to the cruise ship.

If Al was with a ship sponsored tour, he probably had no Russian visa. He could therefore travel only with tour group.
Some of seem to think he would take the wheelchair and go paddling down the streets of St. Petersburg using has cane to pole himself along. He would not very far now would he? The police would have him within a very few minutes.

Another aspect of this passport request is this: Have you ever beem asked to leave something as valuable as a pasport as security for a wheelchair in a hospital?

Assuming Al had no individual visa, he HAD to stay with his tour group just like I had to stay with mine. Noses were counted both entering and leaving the musuem.

Way back in 1984 we visited Leningrad with our 2 year old daughter.We were on an organised excursion from Helsinki and had a room with a double and a single bed.

On the second night we were in the middle of dinner at the hotel when the Rep approached and asked my husband to pay the supplement for the single bed . He said that he would do so and we carried on eating. We knew that there would be a charge but when we had checked in no-one had wanted to take our money.

After five minutes during which we were still eating the Rep returned and asked again if we would pay. My husband said he would come as soon as he finished his food.

Another five minutes later and the Rep came back again. We had to pay this minute. My husband was a bit annoyed this time and asked why there was such a hurry . He pointed out that the hotel had our passports and we couldn't leave without paying even if we wanted to.The Rep in an embarassed fashion told us that the hotel were not allowing him to leave for the evening until we had paid! As you can imagine my husband then went to pay.

On the same trip we went to the Hermitage. My daughter was in a pushchair which they would not allow in. They said that the wheels would damage the floor. We showed them that the wheels were plastic but nothing doing. She was being potty trained at the time and in the middle of our visit she wanted to go to the toilet. There was not an abundance of toilets in the Hermitage and eventually she had waited too long and squatted on the floor ( yes the very floor they had not wanted us to damage) and left a little puddle!

This was my only visit to Russia and yet it was all so incredibly interesting that I can remember a lot of the detail many years later.

As stated above it has been the norm for as long as I can remember ( and I have been travelling abroad since 1958) that you hand in your passport on arrival at a hotel abroad.