What will Europe Look Like in Fifty Years?
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:50 AM
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What will Europe Look Like in Fifty Years?
I?m wondering if demography will become destiny. Specifically, will a growing Muslim population eventually turn Europe into a place that we will not want to visit?
I?m concerned about "transnationals" who argue the moral superiority of identifying with humanity at large, and don't place value in the idea of the nation. It seems to me that if European societies do not regain some sense of belief in their own cultures and ethnicities as things worth defending then they are going to be outnumbered and eventually ruled over by people who do not share their cultural values.
I?m also concerned that radical Muslims are determined to spread Islam via immigration. I?ve read that Saudi Wahhabi preachers say Europe can be eventually controlled (and forced to adopt very restrictive practices) via this process since secular Westerners are not reproducing enough to replace their numbers while Muslims are reproducing much more rapidly. Perhaps this process has already begun. Are not 25% of French youth, and an even higher proportion of Belgian young, already Muslim?
More questions than answers: Can any discussion of open borders and immigration take place without charges of xenophobia being leveled? Can one support more moderate immigration levels and tighter enforcement without being called a racist? Do borders still have value? Can immigration law be enforced and illegal immigration stopped?
Seems like the Dutch are being forced to confront many of those same questions/ issues now after last week?s brutal murder.
I?m concerned about "transnationals" who argue the moral superiority of identifying with humanity at large, and don't place value in the idea of the nation. It seems to me that if European societies do not regain some sense of belief in their own cultures and ethnicities as things worth defending then they are going to be outnumbered and eventually ruled over by people who do not share their cultural values.
I?m also concerned that radical Muslims are determined to spread Islam via immigration. I?ve read that Saudi Wahhabi preachers say Europe can be eventually controlled (and forced to adopt very restrictive practices) via this process since secular Westerners are not reproducing enough to replace their numbers while Muslims are reproducing much more rapidly. Perhaps this process has already begun. Are not 25% of French youth, and an even higher proportion of Belgian young, already Muslim?
More questions than answers: Can any discussion of open borders and immigration take place without charges of xenophobia being leveled? Can one support more moderate immigration levels and tighter enforcement without being called a racist? Do borders still have value? Can immigration law be enforced and illegal immigration stopped?
Seems like the Dutch are being forced to confront many of those same questions/ issues now after last week?s brutal murder.
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:59 AM
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If I were you I'd be a lot more concerned about whether or not you will BE ALIVE in 50 more years. You really do need to deal with your blatant xenophobia, too, and preferably somewhere besides this travel board.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:26 AM
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I'm no expert, but have read that assimilation of immigrants is a thorny issue in many European countries.
Tourists are bound to eventually be impacted if assimilation efforts fail and the fall out is higher crime rates and economic disruption.
Radical religions do seek to suppress many of the freedoms for which Europe is famous.
It would be awful if democracy and freedom of speech was replaced by some strict, rigid religious rule that banned women from showing their face, voting or holding certain jobs or allowed husbands to have more than one wife or beat their current wives.
That is not a place I'd want to visit.
Tourists are bound to eventually be impacted if assimilation efforts fail and the fall out is higher crime rates and economic disruption.
Radical religions do seek to suppress many of the freedoms for which Europe is famous.
It would be awful if democracy and freedom of speech was replaced by some strict, rigid religious rule that banned women from showing their face, voting or holding certain jobs or allowed husbands to have more than one wife or beat their current wives.
That is not a place I'd want to visit.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:30 AM
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One incident does not mean a whole group is responsible. There have been many different ethnic groups in various european countries for a long time. My friend is French Vietnemise. Have they "taken" over no don't be silly. I am wondering what they are putting in the water where some people live sometimes 
Why is your group superior than another (This is nothing to so with politics).
I am a bit shocked with some peoples comments because is America not the country built on different nationalities and races and are we not told we are great because of this when we study American History in school? No one is a true American unless you are a Native American. We ALL come from somewhere else along the line.
As for as this transnational rubbish. I do value my nation and people (Ireland) as well as America and we still maintain our culture and identoity AND people are welcome from other places to Participate in these activities. In Ireland this is from sport to music to Irish dancing. A small few foreigners are doing this and it so far has been great.
You seem to think that Europe is a bunch of separate places that should remain separate in culture but the EU formation shows we want to join forces economically and sometimes culturally. WE chose this not outside countries.
I feel you are looking at it as an outsider. As for "reproducing" more people than another, well they will have a hard time beating china and the rest of Asia...do they make you uncomfortable as well?
I just don't see this Muslim europe taking over as you do...sounds very Nationalist Front, Le Penn crap to me.
Why is your group superior than another (This is nothing to so with politics).I am a bit shocked with some peoples comments because is America not the country built on different nationalities and races and are we not told we are great because of this when we study American History in school? No one is a true American unless you are a Native American. We ALL come from somewhere else along the line.
As for as this transnational rubbish. I do value my nation and people (Ireland) as well as America and we still maintain our culture and identoity AND people are welcome from other places to Participate in these activities. In Ireland this is from sport to music to Irish dancing. A small few foreigners are doing this and it so far has been great.
You seem to think that Europe is a bunch of separate places that should remain separate in culture but the EU formation shows we want to join forces economically and sometimes culturally. WE chose this not outside countries.
I feel you are looking at it as an outsider. As for "reproducing" more people than another, well they will have a hard time beating china and the rest of Asia...do they make you uncomfortable as well?
I just don't see this Muslim europe taking over as you do...sounds very Nationalist Front, Le Penn crap to me.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:40 AM
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I see my fears of being immediately branded a racist were correct. Free speech and open discussion are always given lip service but seldom allowed to happen.
Why are people afraid to even discuss this big issue and try to quickly sweep it under the rug? Sticking your head in the sand only works for camels.
Why are people afraid to even discuss this big issue and try to quickly sweep it under the rug? Sticking your head in the sand only works for camels.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:47 AM
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A brief understanding of Muslim history in Europe would help you, hansikday, to understand your fears are based on prejudice and ignorance...
By 714AD (a scant 114 years after The Prophet Mohammed's first revelation in the cave on Mt Hira, the same year that he was commisioned Messenger Of God) Muslim armies had conquered almost the entire Iberian Peninsula ushering in a period of cultural and social enlightenment not seen elsewhere in Europe until, arguably, the 18th Century.
There have been Jewish communities in Europe since the Roman Empire, variously waxing and waning in influence, their safety and well-being similarly yo-yoing dependent on location and time. Noticeably it was Moorish Spain in which the Jewish communities were best treated.
Muslim Europe then has existed for just a few hundred years less than Christian Europe.
I think we can cope with the current growth very well indeed and will continue to do so.
I think your figures for France and Belgium are way out (isn't it nearer 8 or 9% in France?) and you should rest easy knowing that the fastest growing religion in the UK is Evangelical Christianity.
Personally I think your rabble rousing is pure demagogue.
Go away and worry about something more worthy - like the intolerance you so frequently display on these boards.
Dr D.
By 714AD (a scant 114 years after The Prophet Mohammed's first revelation in the cave on Mt Hira, the same year that he was commisioned Messenger Of God) Muslim armies had conquered almost the entire Iberian Peninsula ushering in a period of cultural and social enlightenment not seen elsewhere in Europe until, arguably, the 18th Century.
There have been Jewish communities in Europe since the Roman Empire, variously waxing and waning in influence, their safety and well-being similarly yo-yoing dependent on location and time. Noticeably it was Moorish Spain in which the Jewish communities were best treated.
Muslim Europe then has existed for just a few hundred years less than Christian Europe.
I think we can cope with the current growth very well indeed and will continue to do so.
I think your figures for France and Belgium are way out (isn't it nearer 8 or 9% in France?) and you should rest easy knowing that the fastest growing religion in the UK is Evangelical Christianity.
Personally I think your rabble rousing is pure demagogue.
Go away and worry about something more worthy - like the intolerance you so frequently display on these boards.
Dr D.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:47 AM
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I am all for free speech but I fear you are trying to convert this board from a helpful travel site to a political discussion site. How about taking your daily provocative questions to a board more suited to their content?
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:49 AM
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I think he raises legitimate points. I enjoy visitiing Europe for cultural reasons, and some of those things that I enjoy may change over the next fifty years. It may result from migration, further cultural and economic integration, or any number of other reasons. I think hansikday asks questions worthy of discussion that the European governments have addressed themselves. He should not be branded as anti-Muslim for discussing legitimate issues facing a region of the world we all love.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:53 AM
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Hansikday - that's an ace defence... deflect charges of rascism by saying "hmmm I KEW I'd be called a rascist and a fascist... but it's THEM who are really intolerant for not discussing it". It's great to GET YOUR DEFENCE IN FIRST! Rather like saying that your tyres are bald and your engine's not tuned before getting in your car to race someone - that way you're cool if you loose and cool if you win!
Fact is rascism is rascism is rascism regardless of whether its a "wet liberal" who accuses you or not.
Dr D.
Fact is rascism is rascism is rascism regardless of whether its a "wet liberal" who accuses you or not.
Dr D.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:55 AM
#12
Free speech includes the right to respond as one sees fit. It amazes me when people get into arguments and accuse the other of denying their right to speak freely. The very existence of the argument here in print is evidence of free speech.
If someone disagrees with you, even to the point of calling your views racist, that doesn't mean you don't have the right to express those views. Also doesn't mean they don't have the right to express theirs.
If someone disagrees with you, even to the point of calling your views racist, that doesn't mean you don't have the right to express those views. Also doesn't mean they don't have the right to express theirs.
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:57 AM
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Good questions Hansikday. Sorry they cannot be discussed without name calling. I don't have an answer for you. In the US we are all from somewhere else, unless you are a Native American. But it seems we are more inclined now to accomodate other cultures, even printing things in both English and Spanish. A percentage of our workforce are not even residents. Is that good or bad? It should be discussed, but often meets with the same comments you have seen.
The irony, coming from a travel forum, is that we travel to different cultures to experience those cultures. I do not travel to Paris, to experience Middle Eastern cultures or vice versa (though there is clearly an increased Middle Eastern influence in Paris). To suggest that it would be nice if Paris remained, well, French may be selfish on my part, but not necessarily racist or xenophobic.
The irony, coming from a travel forum, is that we travel to different cultures to experience those cultures. I do not travel to Paris, to experience Middle Eastern cultures or vice versa (though there is clearly an increased Middle Eastern influence in Paris). To suggest that it would be nice if Paris remained, well, French may be selfish on my part, but not necessarily racist or xenophobic.
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:01 AM
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answering radicalism with zenophobia is not a solution and only serves to further alienate even reasonable people.
growing up in India, I constantly heard the arguments that Muslims wree trying to outbreed the Hindus, this gave rise to right wing Hindu parties, that espouse a philosophy that is nothing like the religion I grew up with. And fueled so many religious riots. And that is what frightens me the polarization around religion. Grow my band of hindu or christian radicals to fight your muslim ones - is that what we want for the world?
The answer is to assimilate more muslims into the mainstream, provide better education - move them out of poverty. The problem is that politicians will often pander to relgious groups to garner votes and thereby contribute to the growing mess.
growing up in India, I constantly heard the arguments that Muslims wree trying to outbreed the Hindus, this gave rise to right wing Hindu parties, that espouse a philosophy that is nothing like the religion I grew up with. And fueled so many religious riots. And that is what frightens me the polarization around religion. Grow my band of hindu or christian radicals to fight your muslim ones - is that what we want for the world?
The answer is to assimilate more muslims into the mainstream, provide better education - move them out of poverty. The problem is that politicians will often pander to relgious groups to garner votes and thereby contribute to the growing mess.
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:06 AM
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But Bitter, the point is is that its the influence of Magrheb culture on French life opver the last 150 years that makes a part of French culture what it is!
What would Paris be without its Maroquinerie and being able to eat at Couscouseries?
As SiobhanP points out the impact of the Vietnamese in Paris has been noticeable and welcome. And so it is with Arabs - what do you what France to be? A medieaval playground - Europe some kind of uber-Disneyland for wealthy Japanese and American tourists?
Dr D.
What would Paris be without its Maroquinerie and being able to eat at Couscouseries?
As SiobhanP points out the impact of the Vietnamese in Paris has been noticeable and welcome. And so it is with Arabs - what do you what France to be? A medieaval playground - Europe some kind of uber-Disneyland for wealthy Japanese and American tourists?
Dr D.
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:07 AM
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I agree that more than a little history is needed here. The United Kingdom's Empire brought many cultures (some more willing than others!) into Britain's umbrella at the time. Since the disintegration of this Empire, many individuals have been welcomed into the UK from as far as India, Pakistan, Hong Kong, Bangladesh etc. The UK is very tolerant of all other religions (to the extent of removing the word Christmas from some places to avoid offence and saying "Happy Holidays"
- probably due to the complete apathy towards religion in the majority of the mainland UK. The main concern here about immigration is because we are a little over-crowded as it is at the moment.
When I read the post, I expected you to be asking if Europe would become a Federal Union within 50 years. The answer to that is probably YES (without the UK, though!!). Becoming a Muslim nation of states? Perhaps the distance from over the Atlantic means that the information you are receiving is perhaps a little blurred by the time you get it (that is IF you get any information outside the USA at all in your news bulletins or papers).
Also, Ira - Is that meant to be a joke?
- probably due to the complete apathy towards religion in the majority of the mainland UK. The main concern here about immigration is because we are a little over-crowded as it is at the moment.When I read the post, I expected you to be asking if Europe would become a Federal Union within 50 years. The answer to that is probably YES (without the UK, though!!). Becoming a Muslim nation of states? Perhaps the distance from over the Atlantic means that the information you are receiving is perhaps a little blurred by the time you get it (that is IF you get any information outside the USA at all in your news bulletins or papers).
Also, Ira - Is that meant to be a joke?
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:24 AM
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Dr. Do: I don't dispute your points and I'll be the first to suggest that multi-culturalism brings flavor to any society. But issues of immigration, support and assimilation are complex and important and must not be reduced to namecalling or kneejerk reactions.
Multiculturalism brings new ideas, food, etc., but can also squeeze out or minorize (is that a word?) history and traditions. Is that good or bad? I don't know, but the issue is worthy of discussion.
Multiculturalism brings new ideas, food, etc., but can also squeeze out or minorize (is that a word?) history and traditions. Is that good or bad? I don't know, but the issue is worthy of discussion.
