What is the fascination with Cafe's?

You have visited cafes in Paris and you don't see why people like them and find them interesting?

I think you need to re-orient yourself.

When I advise people to 'sit in a cafe' I am really trying to simply say to take time to relax and observe. Many people rush around trying to see it "all" which is highly unsatisfying after the trip is done. I also advise people to 'sit in a garden' for the same reason.
I see several museums, monuments, parks, cafes, etc. on each of my trips. I stop "sightseeing" around 3-4pm everyday and find an enjoyable place (indoors or outdoors) to have a drink, watch people, chat about the day, plan for tomorrow, etc. It allows one to "be in the moment" more so than making the checklist.

In addition, being from Dallas, cafes are quintessential Europe to me. Nothing like it at all here. It's part of everyday life in many foreign cities and to be able to sit and relax with a glass of wine is to truly get what traveling really means. It's not checking things off the list, it's trying to become part of the city and culture you're visiting. In a city like Paris, the cafe culture is a huge part of what makes it so special. My opinion obviously...

Cafes are also less expensive than restaurants, often more intimate to people watch.

I assume you each are coversant in French, which would allow an easier assimilation into the culture. I also understand the "winding down" feeling one gets at the cafe. After winding down at the cafe, do you normally just go back to your hotel or apartment and go directly to bed? My experience, or lack thereof may be tainted by the fact that I went with my family, and we stayed in an apartment. We did the planning and winding down there. I will also admit the I certainly "checked the box" on much of what I did, but our next trip has several "boxes" that I didn't get checked before. Sitting in a cafe is on the possible list of "boxes", so I am just trying to get a better understanding. Thanks to each of you for your replies.

A persuader:

Can we persuade you to test out the cafe theory once more...and RE-READ
"TravelNut"'s comments above. That tells it all! Right there, TravelNut!

Stu T.

I said that you needed to re-orient yourself, and your follow-up post convinces me.

Cafes are generally less of an evening winding-down thing than a part of the day's activities. You can take breakfast there, morning or afternoon refreshment stops, lunch, and, indeed, perhaps a beer or glass of wine in the evening.

Experience a little of how Parisians behave (true, uderstanding French is an advantage, but not essential -- youcan always indulge in enjoyable speculation on what the conversation is about). Rest your aching feet (have you noticed how many visitors to Paris end up hobbling?). Read your guidebook or maps to plan your next adventure, Most of all, just BE.

I am sure not all of the people above are conversant in French, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy a cafe.

I think if you have been there and have to ask because it never appealed to you, that's the answer. To many people, it isn't just a matter of relaxing, as you can do that where you are staying, but because it is a way of being part of the area, or trying to be, and just seeing what's going on. Usually when people are on vacation, they want to participate and observe in the place they are, instead of doing things they can do at home (relax when your own family).

As for Paris, and many other cities, cafes are a significant historical element in the culture for various reasons, and so it might be of value to try to understand that or learn about it.

I think for many people in the US, at least, cafes are unknown where they live so it is something new, also. I used to live in LA, and thought it was very weird that there weren't hardly any cafes there even though the weather was almost always good. Of course there were a few down on the beach, but not nearly as many as you would expect. That has changed some, and there are more now. There are also more than there used to be in the large US city where I live now, which isn't always warm. But it's still a novelty to many people.

I like to sit in them in Paris because it's part of the culture, and I enjoy them and the activity, people-watching, etc. It isn't strictly just to unwind, as I could certainly do that in my hotel room or apt. I also like to relax and dawdle over food and breakfast, and like to read the French newspapers, so do that in a cafe for a while. Some cafes actually keep some newspapers around for regulars, and it's a way for me to read several of them without buying them. But I would probably do it even if I couldn't read French. I do it in other cities where I can't read the local paper very much (like in Vienna, Prague, etc.), for the other reasons.

I don't ever sit in a cafe instead of going to a museum, though, I have my plans as to places I am interested in seeing, but I don't have an agenda that is packed every minute with those kind of things, so that I'd have to leave off a museum I really wanted to see.

When traveling a cafe is a great place to regroup and relax. I find myself stopping at one every 3-4 hours. Plus the people watching is great fun.

Maybe a better question for each of you would be: Do you relax and observe, or people watch in your home cities? If you do, is the fascination a personal one to you, or is it more of a French cultural thing? I have the distinct feeling I may be missing out on something great, but I'm not sure it would fit with my personality.

Some direct responses:

To Padraig: I too found them interesting, but I weighed the cost of the trip to France and initially found the balance went to seeing the art, architecture and history of Paris versus people watching. Have you been to Paris many times? Our second trip is coming soon and I wonder whether the cafe fascination is something that grows on you with time.

To Travelnut: Your post was particularly helpful. I believe it comes down to a more personal enjoyment issue. My wife and I both had a wonderful first trip to Paris, but she enjoyed the window shopping at the various shops, including food shops and people watching. She did speak about feeling "rushed" when it came to seeing some of the sites. I, on the other hand enjoyed seeing the sites that I read about in History and Art classes and found the time window shopping and people watching to be frustrating. I continually would be planning in my head what I would do when I got to ______. I do believe that we both thoroughly enjoyed our trip, so much that we began discussions on going back on the flight home.

Thanks again for the replies.

I've been many times and never really spent a lot of time there.

Don't drink coffee, don't want to be around smokers and when you're outside, it's often near noisy traffic.

Probably try to pack too many things in a day so don't sit down except for a few minutes to rest.

The idea of idling away an afternoon sounds good in principle but there's always something else to do, especially if the conditions aren't ideal.

Why don't you try cafe sitting while your wife is shopping? I know I dont like an impatient man staring at me while I shop. Go separate ways for a bit and meet up at a cafe later.

I try to balance sightseeing and cafe sitting wherever I am. I would love to be sitting at a cafe on the square in Siena right now, taking in the ambiance.

Maybe a better question for each of you would be: Do you relax and observe, or people watch in your home cities?

Yes, yes, and yes. I'm at the local independent cafe here in D.C. twice a day and tend to stretch my time there. I meet the same people there every day and have made some "cafe freinds". It has the vibe of a living room, albeit outdoors and public.

I like to watch the endless parade of characters (and there are some doozies) on the sidewalk, do a good amount of reading there, and it's a world away from all the stresses of life.

Also, I love coffee.

Same here in Boston/Cambridge. The lines are so long to wait for a table.
I know who will be at which sidewalk cafe. There are dozens on this on street and on the next.

Hi AP,

>..found the time window shopping and people watching to be frustrating. I continually would be planning in my head what I would do when I got to ______.<

Time to slow down and pick some roses, me lad.


I can understand about the window shopping.

Have you considered that for a couple of hours you could go to xxxx while DW goes window shopping.

You could then rendezvous at some small cafe, where gypsies play.....

apersuader65: you are perfectly entitled to use your holiday time as you please, and I can't (and wouldn't want to) force my preferences on you.

Yes, I have been to Paris a number of times and yes, I can speak French, albeit not like a native.

Like you, I am interested in the art, architecture, and history to be seen there. But bear in mind that these things are expressions of people, and the fundamental interest is in some aspect of the human character. I am also interested in today's people and how they live. I get a flavour of it in Paris cafes, particularly those less frequented by my fellow-visitors (just head down a side street and you have a better chance of finding places like that). I also enjoy strolling or sitting in parks, not just the great ones, but also the little pocket parks dotted all over the city, and shopping in places like Monoprix (a relatively cheap chain store), and strolling in areas outside the main tourist zones.

For me, Paris is an experience of another way of living, not just a place to see the "higher" things (although it is hard to miss seeing the Eiffel Tower -- you think you are safe and then it fills a vista or peeks over a rooftop and gets you).

next time try cafes in Vienna; if you still don't "get it", just grab a
coffee "to go" - it is available at McDonald's world wide
( not that there is anything wrong with that).

My wife and I had breakfast every day for a week in the same cafe on the border between the 5th and 6th. We ordered the same thing every morning, and it got to be a bit of a joke with the waiter. On the last morning, when I told him we were going home, he called the owner, and they both shook our hands, we thanking them for taking care of us, them thanking us for being customers.

Priceless? In my memories it is!

I think most of the reason you "don't get it" is because this was your first trip to Paris and you thought you had to see and do everything. I felt that way myself 35 years ago on our first trip...but 20 or so trips later , for 10 days to 3 weeks in Paris, I can relax and know that there is always something different to do each day.
I start my Pais day in a cafe across from our hotel , at 7 AM! I'm known now as Madame de Florida, chat up the owner , talk with the same people that are always there then roust my DH out of bed. Walk to Paul, chat with the same waitress, Germaine, that has served us over the years and plan our day. Usually hit a street market until about 10 then , head off to a museum for the current exhibitions. Around noon or 1, stop for a nice lunch in a cafe and not hurry. Walk some unfamilar streets or revisit a favorite place, around 4:30 stop for a coffee or glass of wine before heading back to the hotel,

After a nice rest or nap, a bath or shower, dress for dinner, enjoy the walk to the restaurant or the metro , lovely dinner ,and back in bed by 11 to start all over again!

yes, Jody explained it very well. Same thing happens here in Spain with cafes or just bars..it's no fascination , it's a daily question for many people. I try not to spend too much and usually take my coffee at home...to see if I can go during this year to sit on a cafe in Paris

I also love the cafes but here is my question and I hope I don't get any flack for it but here goes. If you see an empty table do you just walk over to it and sit down or do you ask a waiter if it is okay to sit there? This is for cafes only

just sit down and stay as long as you wish!

If there are a lot of people clustered by the door and only one or two tables open, and it's lunchtime, you probably will get yelled at and shooed away if you just "grab a seat". But normally you can easily tell if people are waiting or not. <br>
The point of sitting at a cafe isn't "winding down" or "resting" from all the frenetic activity. Sitting at a cafe IS an activity. You are in a spectacular city; sit and have a look at it. A city is the buildings but it's also the people. Traffic? Yes, of course, you're meant to be looking at the traffic. It's INTERESTING. Try an aperitif you haven't tried before. Just sit and soak it up; this is why you are in Paris and not in a dark room underground somewhere watching television.

Sure, sitting in a cafe is nice.

But you can "watch" people all the time, not just at cafes. And what exactly are you "watching" for? They may dress differently because they are probably on their way to work or some other activity while you are on vacation. But other than that, people are people, even in France. I don't see it as a side show, watching these strange beings who are so foreign from me. I'm just looking at people. Not a big deal.

If you want to see people really going about daily life, check out a supermarket. Or "customer service" lines at a utility. Or go to a hardware store.

"Cafe" is simply a nice tourist experience, like all other tourist experiences.

Exactly, Benny, like here in Boston. You do your errands meet your friends at a sidewalk cafe and watch the world pass by. Makes life fine!

I'm glad I said something that was meaningful for you... We don't 'sit for hours'. It's just a break from the 'sightseeing death march' of which I've also been guilty. I like a cafe creme around mid-morning and we have an afternoon break, sometimes at a cafe and sometimes on a park bench. We do like to 'people-watch' anywhere there is a bit of a crowd or flow of passersby. I think we may actually watch tourists more than locals. We don't speak French - I've learned a few words and try to read very simple text but not sufficient to have real conversations with anyone. I'm not an outgoing person so I have no expectations of 'meeting the locals' other than the most casual encounters. Once we made eye contact and smiles with a Parisian who was walking two miniature bull terriers and having a bit of a power struggle... Another time, we watched an older lady go thru the trash bins around Square Vivian - she was seeking clean plastic sacks - she would shake out any food or paper from the bags, then stuff the bag into her tote. It's just a curiosity kind of thing with me. I enjoy seeing that people are different -and- the same wherever we go.

The plural of cafe is cafes. Cafe's shows possession, as in "The cafe's owner smiled at me."

Just a kindly reminder from an ex-English teacher.

Sometimes you just want to "be" and not "do", this is when a cafe comes in handy.

Life has become very privatized -- we spend way too much of our time in our apartments and houses, our cars, our little offices and cubicles.

It's very pleasant to simply enjoy and occupy public space -- leisure spaces where one isn't isolated but out and about amongst other people. There's a vibrant energy in great public spaces that bring people out into the open. Cafes are nice because you can comfortably buy food and drink while you read or otherwise hang out. I suppose it might feel strange to be sitting around a table with your family, staring at each other waiting for something to happen since it's not an event.

I guess that if you don't enjoy people-watching at home, then being on holiday won't make any difference. You'll still find it boring. That's basically the appeal of cafes - a little break and a chance to watch the world go by. It's not compulsory to enjoy this

Me? I even enjoy hanging around at airports people watching, so I like cafes, but I can understand that it's not everyone's idea of fun.

To each his own.

I have become an established Parisian, and I confess that I do not spend large amounts of times in cafés -- they are just not a center of interest for me. And yet, I was a partner in a café for 3 years and spent countless hours there seeing the industry from the inside, knowing all of the regulars, knowing who wanted to sit at which table to plug in his cell phone charger, knowing which two customers had had an argument and were avoiding each other for a week or so, knowing which crazies would be walking down the street at precisely which time, etc.

It was interesting, but it was not my world. I still enjoy sitting at a few cafés in the summer, in areas of maximum pedestrian traffic like Au Père Tranquille (rue Pierre Lescot) or Café Beaubourg (rue Saint Martin). Meanwhile, I really hate when I have to go to a café somewhere like boulevard Saint Germain -- watching matrons with too much makeup with silly shopping bags, businessmen trying their pickup lines on anyone who will listen, or tourists obsessed by crêpes with cameras hanging around their necks just makes me want to escape the area as fast as I can.

>although it is hard to miss seeing the Eiffel Tower -- you think you are safe and then it fills a vista or peeks over a rooftop and gets you..

Amen, Bro.

So, if one is not sitting in a cafe, it must mean one is rushing around trying to do it all. Hmmn.

Actually, if one is sitting in a cafe, it must mean one has denied oneself the chance to truly relax and enjoy oneself on vacation. All those coffees will soon be forgotten, whereas one could have been out cycling with a bike troupe, spectating at a sports field, or watching a kid launch a boat in a park.

Apersuade65, You found a way to lurk on this board without help from anyone, so, in Paris, you will find a way to 'lurk' in 3-D and in real-time, in a way that feels natural to you. Enjoy Paris.

Yes, kerouac, what is it with tourists (mostly American) and crêpes, especially the overheated, greasy, pre-made kind that is sold off corner stalls in Paris? Do they miss their junk food so much? Can't they spend one week without having finger food every two hours?

I guess I have a utilitarian point of view regarding cafes. From my point of view, it's fine as a place to take a pause from walking to watch the world go by for a little while. However, it's not really the way I'd want to spend every day for it's own sake.

I would no more reccommend that every visitor to Paris spend part of every day in a cafe than I would reccommend that a visitor to Texas spend a part of each day at the local small town Dairy Queen (if you're from Texas, you know that each small town DQ has a gathering of mostly old men who wile away the time, somewhat like the patrons of a Parisien cafe). If you're into people watching in a big way, fine, but if you're not, then don't feel guilty about prefering other activities.

One more thing about the Texas Dairy Queen comparison: If you think that Parisien cafe society is some intellectual gathering, while the old men down at the DQ are simply hicks, go down to the Dairy Queen in Archer City, Texas. Particularly on a Tuesday--that's bean day, an event that Pulitzer Prize winning author Larry McMurtry never misses. Personally, I can do without either.

Wow! This post generated a lot of responses. I appreciate the tone (not condescending) of your replies. My thoughts on what to do about cafès are tainted by my personal situation, I guess. I would love the idea of letting my wife go shopping while I went to a museum. However, my wife had no prior knowledge or history with Paris or French culture and was very intimidated about what to do and where to go by herself. Only one day did we do something separate, our older son and I did a Orsay and Louvre revisit, while she and our younger son walked along the streets and window shopped. Her biggest fear that day was getting lost and not knowing how to get back to the apartment. Our next trip will involve some family, but also other couples, so I expect she will feel more comfortable going out with the ladies, while the men go to a museum, etc. (stereotyping, I know). I will certainly try the cafè thing at least once while we're their.
To Marginal margeila: I did not know how to put the accent on the e in my word processor originally, but now I've found that ALT+138=è. Thanks for prompting me to find out how!

Sorry, that's there, not their.

jeezlouweeze, apersuader, it's NOT about Paris, OR about knowing French. All over the world (except maybe in big "new" cities in USA), people sit, and muse, and talk, or read, or look. And they STILL get their jobs done, raise their kids, check off their lists -- but maybe their blood pressure isn't as high. Because they've learned to stop and smell the roses.

One early evening, I sat in a cafe on the promenade in Nafplio on the bay of Argos in Greece, as the sun dyed the mountains pink. At the next table, for an hour, sat a Greek businessman, also looking out over the water. In 45 minutes he slowly drank a minute cup of coffee. I looked about my table-- at my journal book, my newspapers, my camera--and then just gave myself up to the sunset.

Of course, I'm not a Type A. But Type A's should try it -- and not just once. It takes practice, but you'll really get to like it!

Or they just need a coffee/cigarette fix.

This thread is testimony that nearly any subject can raise heated debate!

I'm not sure there's actually a "fascination" with cafes, though. I think 'cafe' is sort of travel-speak for a nice little oasis to take a break with coffee, wine, a cold drink, etc., during a day of sight-seeing. We walk morning till night everyday when we visit any city, so finding a cafe along the way, right when we need a break, is wonderful.

Apersuader65, I understand your wife's concern about getting lost in a foreign city. I have absolutely no sense of direction myself. Just make sure she remembers to carry a business card from your hotel, in case she needs to get directions back to it, or call it.

Perhaps the sidewalk cafe mania began for Americans in the dark ages before Starbucks and a zillion clones started to dot out cities.

Never before did we have coffeeshops where you could go just to sit and talk and watch and read with no feeling of having to move on.

Thus the Parisian cafe culture has come to the States so we may have become jaded with the experience...and the exorbitant, to me, Paris cafe prices.

Still i agree with the overwhelmingly majority of above posts that sitting at a Parisian cafe, much like one at a similar one at home, is a joy of life. But i would not say you will be missing out on Paris if you don't.

Hi A,

>Her biggest fear that day was getting lost and not knowing how to get back to the apartment. <

A. Carry the written address of the apt and enough cash to pay for a cab.

B. Get two cell phones.

"Thus the Parisian cafe culture has come to the States so we may have become jaded with the experience...and the exorbitant, to me, Paris cafe prices"

Starbucks is to "café culture" what Dan Brown is to literature: a sanitised, formatted version. With a big difference: there is no alcohol in Starbucks. As for the "exorbitant café prices", remember you are not just sitting there, you are renting 2 sq meters of prime Paris real estate for as many hours as you want. And have you looked at the price of your strawberry - vanilla - skimmed - soy - latte at Starbucks recently? Compares easily with a coffee at a Parisian café - where you actually get real coffee.

What is the fascination with Cafe's?

Author: apersuader65
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:12 pm
As a one-timer to Paris, and planning on second trip shortly, I've become a regular lurker and infrequent poster on this and other sites. My question above relates to the oft-repeated recommendation to sit in a cafe vs. going to a musuem, or other item of interest. While in Paris, I ate at various restaurants and had cafe's in various parts of the city. I also toured several museums and monuments.
Given the large number of posters who make the cafe recommendation, I am wondering whether I have simply missed the boat on cafe's. What is the main draw for you, if you recommend "sitting in a cafe"?



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Author: Padraig
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:20 pm
You have visited cafes in Paris and you don't see why people like them and find them interesting?

I think you need to re-orient yourself.



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Author: Travelnut
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:25 pm
When I advise people to 'sit in a cafe' I am really trying to simply say to take time to relax and observe. Many people rush around trying to see it "all" which is highly unsatisfying after the trip is done. I also advise people to 'sit in a garden' for the same reason.
I see several museums, monuments, parks, cafes, etc. on each of my trips. I stop "sightseeing" around 3-4pm everyday and find an enjoyable place (indoors or outdoors) to have a drink, watch people, chat about the day, plan for tomorrow, etc. It allows one to "be in the moment" more so than making the checklist.



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Author: sandi_travelnut
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:27 pm
In addition, being from Dallas, cafes are quintessential Europe to me. Nothing like it at all here. It's part of everyday life in many foreign cities and to be able to sit and relax with a glass of wine is to truly get what traveling really means. It's not checking things off the list, it's trying to become part of the city and culture you're visiting. In a city like Paris, the cafe culture is a huge part of what makes it so special. My opinion obviously...



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Author: cigalechanta
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:42 pm
Cafes are also less expensive than restaurants, often more intimate to people watch.



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Author: apersuader65
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:42 pm
I assume you each are coversant in French, which would allow an easier assimilation into the culture. I also understand the "winding down" feeling one gets at the cafe. After winding down at the cafe, do you normally just go back to your hotel or apartment and go directly to bed? My experience, or lack thereof may be tainted by the fact that I went with my family, and we stayed in an apartment. We did the planning and winding down there. I will also admit the I certainly "checked the box" on much of what I did, but our next trip has several "boxes" that I didn't get checked before. Sitting in a cafe is on the possible list of "boxes", so I am just trying to get a better understanding. Thanks to each of you for your replies.



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Author: tower
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:48 pm
A persuader:

Can we persuade you to test out the cafe theory once more...and RE-READ
"TravelNut"'s comments above. That tells it all! Right there, TravelNut!

Stu T.



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Author: Padraig
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:53 pm
I said that you needed to re-orient yourself, and your follow-up post convinces me.

Cafes are generally less of an evening winding-down thing than a part of the day's activities. You can take breakfast there, morning or afternoon refreshment stops, lunch, and, indeed, perhaps a beer or glass of wine in the evening.

Experience a little of how Parisians behave (true, uderstanding French is an advantage, but not essential -- youcan always indulge in enjoyable speculation on what the conversation is about). Rest your aching feet (have you noticed how many visitors to Paris end up hobbling?). Read your guidebook or maps to plan your next adventure, Most of all, just BE.



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Author: Christina
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:54 pm
I am sure not all of the people above are conversant in French, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy a cafe.

I think if you have been there and have to ask because it never appealed to you, that's the answer. To many people, it isn't just a matter of relaxing, as you can do that where you are staying, but because it is a way of being part of the area, or trying to be, and just seeing what's going on. Usually when people are on vacation, they want to participate and observe in the place they are, instead of doing things they can do at home (relax when your own family).

As for Paris, and many other cities, cafes are a significant historical element in the culture for various reasons, and so it might be of value to try to understand that or learn about it.

I think for many people in the US, at least, cafes are unknown where they live so it is something new, also. I used to live in LA, and thought it was very weird that there weren't hardly any cafes there even though the weather was almost always good. Of course there were a few down on the beach, but not nearly as many as you would expect. That has changed some, and there are more now. There are also more than there used to be in the large US city where I live now, which isn't always warm. But it's still a novelty to many people.

I like to sit in them in Paris because it's part of the culture, and I enjoy them and the activity, people-watching, etc. It isn't strictly just to unwind, as I could certainly do that in my hotel room or apt. I also like to relax and dawdle over food and breakfast, and like to read the French newspapers, so do that in a cafe for a while. Some cafes actually keep some newspapers around for regulars, and it's a way for me to read several of them without buying them. But I would probably do it even if I couldn't read French. I do it in other cities where I can't read the local paper very much (like in Vienna, Prague, etc.), for the other reasons.

I don't ever sit in a cafe instead of going to a museum, though, I have my plans as to places I am interested in seeing, but I don't have an agenda that is packed every minute with those kind of things, so that I'd have to leave off a museum I really wanted to see.



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Author: laartista
Date: 02/22/2007, 06:56 pm
When traveling a cafe is a great place to regroup and relax. I find myself stopping at one every 3-4 hours. Plus the people watching is great fun.



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Author: apersuader65
Date: 02/22/2007, 07:01 pm
Maybe a better question for each of you would be: Do you relax and observe, or people watch in your home cities? If you do, is the fascination a personal one to you, or is it more of a French cultural thing? I have the distinct feeling I may be missing out on something great, but I'm not sure it would fit with my personality.

Some direct responses:

To Padraig: I too found them interesting, but I weighed the cost of the trip to France and initially found the balance went to seeing the art, architecture and history of Paris versus people watching. Have you been to Paris many times? Our second trip is coming soon and I wonder whether the cafe fascination is something that grows on you with time.

To Travelnut: Your post was particularly helpful. I believe it comes down to a more personal enjoyment issue. My wife and I both had a wonderful first trip to Paris, but she enjoyed the window shopping at the various shops, including food shops and people watching. She did speak about feeling "rushed" when it came to seeing some of the sites. I, on the other hand enjoyed seeing the sites that I read about in History and Art classes and found the time window shopping and people watching to be frustrating. I continually would be planning in my head what I would do when I got to ______. I do believe that we both thoroughly enjoyed our trip, so much that we began discussions on going back on the flight home.

Thanks again for the replies.



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Author: scrb
Date: 02/22/2007, 07:13 pm
I've been many times and never really spent a lot of time there.

Don't drink coffee, don't want to be around smokers and when you're outside, it's often near noisy traffic.

Probably try to pack too many things in a day so don't sit down except for a few minutes to rest.

The idea of idling away an afternoon sounds good in principle but there's always something else to do, especially if the conditions aren't ideal.



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Author: SeaUrchin
Date: 02/22/2007, 07:19 pm
Why don't you try cafe sitting while your wife is shopping? I know I dont like an impatient man staring at me while I shop. Go separate ways for a bit and meet up at a cafe later.

I try to balance sightseeing and cafe sitting wherever I am. I would love to be sitting at a cafe on the square in Siena right now, taking in the ambiance.





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Author: bardo1
Date: 02/22/2007, 07:21 pm
Maybe a better question for each of you would be: Do you relax and observe, or people watch in your home cities?

Yes, yes, and yes. I'm at the local independent cafe here in D.C. twice a day and tend to stretch my time there. I meet the same people there every day and have made some "cafe freinds". It has the vibe of a living room, albeit outdoors and public.

I like to watch the endless parade of characters (and there are some doozies) on the sidewalk, do a good amount of reading there, and it's a world away from all the stresses of life.

Also, I love coffee.



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Author: cigalechanta
Date: 02/22/2007, 07:30 pm
Same here in Boston/Cambridge. The lines are so long to wait for a table.
I know who will be at which sidewalk cafe. There are dozens on this on street and on the next.



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Author: ira
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:00 pm
Hi AP,

>..found the time window shopping and people watching to be frustrating. I continually would be planning in my head what I would do when I got to ______.<

Time to slow down and pick some roses, me lad.


I can understand about the window shopping.

Have you considered that for a couple of hours you could go to xxxx while DW goes window shopping.

You could then rendezvous at some small cafe, where gypsies play.....




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Author: Padraig
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:14 pm
apersuader65: you are perfectly entitled to use your holiday time as you please, and I can't (and wouldn't want to) force my preferences on you.

Yes, I have been to Paris a number of times and yes, I can speak French, albeit not like a native.

Like you, I am interested in the art, architecture, and history to be seen there. But bear in mind that these things are expressions of people, and the fundamental interest is in some aspect of the human character. I am also interested in today's people and how they live. I get a flavour of it in Paris cafes, particularly those less frequented by my fellow-visitors (just head down a side street and you have a better chance of finding places like that). I also enjoy strolling or sitting in parks, not just the great ones, but also the little pocket parks dotted all over the city, and shopping in places like Monoprix (a relatively cheap chain store), and strolling in areas outside the main tourist zones.

For me, Paris is an experience of another way of living, not just a place to see the "higher" things (although it is hard to miss seeing the Eiffel Tower -- you think you are safe and then it fills a vista or peeks over a rooftop and gets you).



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Author: nbujic
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:17 pm
next time try cafes in Vienna; if you still don't "get it", just grab a
coffee "to go" - it is available at McDonald's world wide
( not that there is anything wrong with that).



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Author: Ackislander
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:36 pm
My wife and I had breakfast every day for a week in the same cafe on the border between the 5th and 6th. We ordered the same thing every morning, and it got to be a bit of a joke with the waiter. On the last morning, when I told him we were going home, he called the owner, and they both shook our hands, we thanking them for taking care of us, them thanking us for being customers.

Priceless? In my memories it is!



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Author: jody
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:47 pm
I think most of the reason you "don't get it" is because this was your first trip to Paris and you thought you had to see and do everything. I felt that way myself 35 years ago on our first trip...but 20 or so trips later , for 10 days to 3 weeks in Paris, I can relax and know that there is always something different to do each day.
I start my Pais day in a cafe across from our hotel , at 7 AM! I'm known now as Madame de Florida, chat up the owner , talk with the same people that are always there then roust my DH out of bed. Walk to Paul, chat with the same waitress, Germaine, that has served us over the years and plan our day. Usually hit a street market until about 10 then , head off to a museum for the current exhibitions. Around noon or 1, stop for a nice lunch in a cafe and not hurry. Walk some unfamilar streets or revisit a favorite place, around 4:30 stop for a coffee or glass of wine before heading back to the hotel,

After a nice rest or nap, a bath or shower, dress for dinner, enjoy the walk to the restaurant or the metro , lovely dinner ,and back in bed by 11 to start all over again!



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Author: kenderina
Date: 02/22/2007, 08:53 pm
yes, Jody explained it very well. Same thing happens here in Spain with cafes or just bars..it's no fascination , it's a daily question for many people. I try not to spend too much and usually take my coffee at home...to see if I can go during this year to sit on a cafe in Paris



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Author: Madison
Date: 02/22/2007, 09:06 pm
I also love the cafes but here is my question and I hope I don't get any flack for it but here goes. If you see an empty table do you just walk over to it and sit down or do you ask a waiter if it is okay to sit there? This is for cafes only



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Author: nbujic
Date: 02/22/2007, 09:08 pm
just sit down and stay as long as you wish!



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Author: fnarf999
Date: 02/22/2007, 09:24 pm
If there are a lot of people clustered by the door and only one or two tables open, and it's lunchtime, you probably will get yelled at and shooed away if you just "grab a seat". But normally you can easily tell if people are waiting or not. <br>
The point of sitting at a cafe isn't "winding down" or "resting" from all the frenetic activity. Sitting at a cafe IS an activity. You are in a spectacular city; sit and have a look at it. A city is the buildings but it's also the people. Traffic? Yes, of course, you're meant to be looking at the traffic. It's INTERESTING. Try an aperitif you haven't tried before. Just sit and soak it up; this is why you are in Paris and not in a dark room underground somewhere watching television.



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Author: bennyb
Date: 02/22/2007, 09:42 pm
Sure, sitting in a cafe is nice.

But you can "watch" people all the time, not just at cafes. And what exactly are you "watching" for? They may dress differently because they are probably on their way to work or some other activity while you are on vacation. But other than that, people are people, even in France. I don't see it as a side show, watching these strange beings who are so foreign from me. I'm just looking at people. Not a big deal.

If you want to see people really going about daily life, check out a supermarket. Or "customer service" lines at a utility. Or go to a hardware store.

"Cafe" is simply a nice tourist experience, like all other tourist experiences.



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Author: cigalechanta
Date: 02/22/2007, 09:47 pm
Exactly, Benny, like here in Boston. You do your errands meet your friends at a sidewalk cafe and watch the world pass by. Makes life fine!



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Author: Travelnut
Date: 02/22/2007, 10:10 pm
I'm glad I said something that was meaningful for you... We don't 'sit for hours'. It's just a break from the 'sightseeing death march' of which I've also been guilty. I like a cafe creme around mid-morning and we have an afternoon break, sometimes at a cafe and sometimes on a park bench. We do like to 'people-watch' anywhere there is a bit of a crowd or flow of passersby. I think we may actually watch tourists more than locals. We don't speak French - I've learned a few words and try to read very simple text but not sufficient to have real conversations with anyone. I'm not an outgoing person so I have no expectations of 'meeting the locals' other than the most casual encounters. Once we made eye contact and smiles with a Parisian who was walking two miniature bull terriers and having a bit of a power struggle... Another time, we watched an older lady go thru the trash bins around Square Vivian - she was seeking clean plastic sacks - she would shake out any food or paper from the bags, then stuff the bag into her tote. It's just a curiosity kind of thing with me. I enjoy seeing that people are different -and- the same wherever we go.



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Author: marginal_margiela
Date: 02/22/2007, 10:52 pm
The plural of cafe is cafes. Cafe's shows possession, as in "The cafe's owner smiled at me."

Just a kindly reminder from an ex-English teacher.



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Author: SeaUrchin
Date: 02/23/2007, 02:04 am
Sometimes you just want to "be" and not "do", this is when a cafe comes in handy.



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Author: fishee
Date: 02/23/2007, 02:16 am
Life has become very privatized -- we spend way too much of our time in our apartments and houses, our cars, our little offices and cubicles.

It's very pleasant to simply enjoy and occupy public space -- leisure spaces where one isn't isolated but out and about amongst other people. There's a vibrant energy in great public spaces that bring people out into the open. Cafes are nice because you can comfortably buy food and drink while you read or otherwise hang out. I suppose it might feel strange to be sitting around a table with your family, staring at each other waiting for something to happen since it's not an event.



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Author: nona1
Date: 02/23/2007, 03:11 am
I guess that if you don't enjoy people-watching at home, then being on holiday won't make any difference. You'll still find it boring. That's basically the appeal of cafes - a little break and a chance to watch the world go by. It's not compulsory to enjoy this

Me? I even enjoy hanging around at airports people watching, so I like cafes, but I can understand that it's not everyone's idea of fun.



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Author: kerouac
Date: 02/23/2007, 05:25 am
To each his own.

I have become an established Parisian, and I confess that I do not spend large amounts of times in cafés -- they are just not a center of interest for me. And yet, I was a partner in a café for 3 years and spent countless hours there seeing the industry from the inside, knowing all of the regulars, knowing who wanted to sit at which table to plug in his cell phone charger, knowing which two customers had had an argument and were avoiding each other for a week or so, knowing which crazies would be walking down the street at precisely which time, etc.

It was interesting, but it was not my world. I still enjoy sitting at a few cafés in the summer, in areas of maximum pedestrian traffic like Au Père Tranquille (rue Pierre Lescot) or Café Beaubourg (rue Saint Martin). Meanwhile, I really hate when I have to go to a café somewhere like boulevard Saint Germain -- watching matrons with too much makeup with silly shopping bags, businessmen trying their pickup lines on anyone who will listen, or tourists obsessed by crêpes with cameras hanging around their necks just makes me want to escape the area as fast as I can.



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Author: ira
Date: 02/23/2007, 06:53 am
>although it is hard to miss seeing the Eiffel Tower -- you think you are safe and then it fills a vista or peeks over a rooftop and gets you..

Amen, Bro.





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Author: Sue_xx_yy
Date: 02/23/2007, 07:19 am
So, if one is not sitting in a cafe, it must mean one is rushing around trying to do it all. Hmmn.

Actually, if one is sitting in a cafe, it must mean one has denied oneself the chance to truly relax and enjoy oneself on vacation. All those coffees will soon be forgotten, whereas one could have been out cycling with a bike troupe, spectating at a sports field, or watching a kid launch a boat in a park.

Apersuade65, You found a way to lurk on this board without help from anyone, so, in Paris, you will find a way to 'lurk' in 3-D and in real-time, in a way that feels natural to you. Enjoy Paris.



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Author: Art_Vandelay
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:08 pm
Yes, kerouac, what is it with tourists (mostly American) and crêpes, especially the overheated, greasy, pre-made kind that is sold off corner stalls in Paris? Do they miss their junk food so much? Can't they spend one week without having finger food every two hours?



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Author: twk
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:10 pm
I guess I have a utilitarian point of view regarding cafes. From my point of view, it's fine as a place to take a pause from walking to watch the world go by for a little while. However, it's not really the way I'd want to spend every day for it's own sake.

I would no more reccommend that every visitor to Paris spend part of every day in a cafe than I would reccommend that a visitor to Texas spend a part of each day at the local small town Dairy Queen (if you're from Texas, you know that each small town DQ has a gathering of mostly old men who wile away the time, somewhat like the patrons of a Parisien cafe). If you're into people watching in a big way, fine, but if you're not, then don't feel guilty about prefering other activities.



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Author: twk
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:13 pm
One more thing about the Texas Dairy Queen comparison: If you think that Parisien cafe society is some intellectual gathering, while the old men down at the DQ are simply hicks, go down to the Dairy Queen in Archer City, Texas. Particularly on a Tuesday--that's bean day, an event that Pulitzer Prize winning author Larry McMurtry never misses. Personally, I can do without either.



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Author: apersuader65
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:14 pm
Wow! This post generated a lot of responses. I appreciate the tone (not condescending) of your replies. My thoughts on what to do about cafès are tainted by my personal situation, I guess. I would love the idea of letting my wife go shopping while I went to a museum. However, my wife had no prior knowledge or history with Paris or French culture and was very intimidated about what to do and where to go by herself. Only one day did we do something separate, our older son and I did a Orsay and Louvre revisit, while she and our younger son walked along the streets and window shopped. Her biggest fear that day was getting lost and not knowing how to get back to the apartment. Our next trip will involve some family, but also other couples, so I expect she will feel more comfortable going out with the ladies, while the men go to a museum, etc. (stereotyping, I know). I will certainly try the cafè thing at least once while we're their.
To Marginal margeila: I did not know how to put the accent on the e in my word processor originally, but now I've found that ALT+138=è. Thanks for prompting me to find out how!



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Author: apersuader65
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:16 pm
Sorry, that's there, not their.



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Author: travelerjan (janetsgreece@hotmail.com)
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:30 pm
jeezlouweeze, apersuader, it's NOT about Paris, OR about knowing French. All over the world (except maybe in big "new" cities in USA), people sit, and muse, and talk, or read, or look. And they STILL get their jobs done, raise their kids, check off their lists -- but maybe their blood pressure isn't as high. Because they've learned to stop and smell the roses.

One early evening, I sat in a cafe on the promenade in Nafplio on the bay of Argos in Greece, as the sun dyed the mountains pink. At the next table, for an hour, sat a Greek businessman, also looking out over the water. In 45 minutes he slowly drank a minute cup of coffee. I looked about my table-- at my journal book, my newspapers, my camera--and then just gave myself up to the sunset.

Of course, I'm not a Type A. But Type A's should try it -- and not just once. It takes practice, but you'll really get to like it!



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Author: schuler
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:34 pm
Or they just need a coffee/cigarette fix.



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Author: MaureenB
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:44 pm
This thread is testimony that nearly any subject can raise heated debate!

I'm not sure there's actually a "fascination" with cafes, though. I think 'cafe' is sort of travel-speak for a nice little oasis to take a break with coffee, wine, a cold drink, etc., during a day of sight-seeing. We walk morning till night everyday when we visit any city, so finding a cafe along the way, right when we need a break, is wonderful.

Apersuader65, I understand your wife's concern about getting lost in a foreign city. I have absolutely no sense of direction myself. Just make sure she remembers to carry a business card from your hotel, in case she needs to get directions back to it, or call it.




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Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/23/2007, 12:50 pm
Perhaps the sidewalk cafe mania began for Americans in the dark ages before Starbucks and a zillion clones started to dot out cities.

Never before did we have coffeeshops where you could go just to sit and talk and watch and read with no feeling of having to move on.

Thus the Parisian cafe culture has come to the States so we may have become jaded with the experience...and the exorbitant, to me, Paris cafe prices.

Still i agree with the overwhelmingly majority of above posts that sitting at a Parisian cafe, much like one at a similar one at home, is a joy of life. But i would not say you will be missing out on Paris if you don't.



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Author: ira
Date: 02/23/2007, 01:29 pm
Hi A,

>Her biggest fear that day was getting lost and not knowing how to get back to the apartment. <

A. Carry the written address of the apt and enough cash to pay for a cab.

B. Get two cell phones.







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Author: Art_Vandelay
Date: 02/23/2007, 01:35 pm
"Thus the Parisian cafe culture has come to the States so we may have become jaded with the experience...and the exorbitant, to me, Paris cafe prices"

Starbucks is to "café culture" what Dan <Brown is to literature: a sanitised, formatted version. With a big difference: there is no alcohol in Starbucks>

well then Parisians are abandoning their traditional cafes and flocking to Starbucks in huge numbers - everyone of the many Starbucks i passed by a few weeks ago in paris was jammed - jammed with a very different crowd than in the typical smokey Parisian cafe that is still generally the realm of male machoism. Lots of younger women who you don't see in Parisian cafes - talking about ordinary cafes that i've been in a lot of.
Perhaps has something to do with the fact that Starbucks is non-smoking and WI-Fi friendly perhaps but also because they are clean and you need not deal with the at times surly waiters i think.

Next Feb 1 when all cafes become non-smoking it will be interesting to see how popular they remain.

My best experiences in Paris and other European cities has been when I do get lost. I do it on purpose now. You always find that special little experience that way. Would I do this way out in the far reaches of the 20th arrondisemont. Probably not, but in the main historical districts you bet. My understanding of Cafe culture results in a large part because most European housing is too small for socializing in the home. It replaces the living room so to speak.

Another thing is that coffee in cafes is served in cups or mugs made of pottery, porcelain, or alike. You certainly won't get it in styrofoam cups, at least not here in Zagreb, Croatia, where I live. When in the US, I always walk with my styrofoam coffee, which makes me feel like an American, but sitting in a cafe with a 'real' cup and watching the world go by is something I'll never want to give up. It's worth trying, and besides, when in Rome... That's is what I do.
arjana

Congratulations Art - I counted nine stereotypes in your little diatribe - most of them inaccurate. Gotta be a record.

In addition to being a central feature of today's Paris, cafes have a unique place in Paris history, as gathering places for the working class, governmental opponents, and any number of groups. Part of the fascinating history of cafes includes how various administrations regulated cafes.

The book "The World of the Paris Cafe: Sociability Among the French Working Class, 1789-1914," by W. Scott Haine (see Amazon.com), goes into extraordinary but riveting detail on the central place cafes have had in the politics and social development of Paris. Worth a look at on Amazon.

sorry about messing up the thread when i tried to copy a passage and forgot to delete others. Very sorry!

"The World of the Paris Cafe: Sociability Among the French Working Class, 1789-1914," by W. Scott Haine (see Amazon.com), goes into extraordinary but riveting detail on the central place cafes have had in the politics and social development of Paris"

not only Paris, but also Vienna, Prague, Budapest..
As someone mentined, a great thing about cafes is that I can have my coffee and DH can enjoy his beer.

"sitting in a cafe" is simply code for drinking wine during the daytime

What's the fascination with cafe's is not the question! The question is what is the fascination with chat forums?